BEAST

M0, Ep.1, 13:18-13:26 - On the rear wall of the conference room, the Asuka ship insignia can be seen with the kite in its background field. The "wingtips", if you will, point out to the sides without beginning to droop back downward. At the beginning of M7, <Ep.1>, as they go through the historical background material, there is a scene where they show a human and Zent maclone silhouettes standing in front of the kite, and it definitely resembles Mr. March's. The "wingtips", again, point out to the sides without drooping. FWIW.

In my daydreams about what if "they" were to make live action movies of Macross, I have often thought about little mods they could do here or there. Mostly to bring the series and movie more in line with each other. But sometimes, to make scenes make more sense, or be more realistic, or whatever. - Never quite understood why they had so many civilians at the launching of the ship, if so many of its systems were still untested. This would be like the most advanced machine ever known to mankind, which would probably necessitate super-tight security. Seems like they would've done that launch largely in private with only military and government folks. Perhaps the publicity could be better explained as a UN political propaganda move, in order to prevent more anti-UN suspicions and uprisings. Open, transparent operations? Or maybe the UN rushed the launch for PR purposes and brought in all these civilians for the show before the ship and her crew were really ready? Should've been clarified better. - It was silly for Misa to show up on the viewscreen of Hikaru's VF-1D and argue with him to tell him to go to battle, and have him intentionally do it. How would she find the time during that battle to personally bother with an individual plane and pilot? Would probably make more sense if there were some sort of automated dispatch and routing system coupled with the autopilot, which took Hikaru along for the ride. Also, scarier that way. - It seemed silly to have Hikaru and Minmei flying around in the racer seconds before the spacefold. I doubt the hangar doors would've been allowed to open during the countdown. And how would a ducted fan plane maneuver in outer space? His rear rockets would only thrust in one direction, methinks. He probably should've just stayed inside and looked out a porthole or something, and omitted that whole jaunt. - What was up with the giant tuna spacewalk scene? I think they should've just survived on his survival kit rations, and skipped that scene. - One thing I thought of would be to show Global almost smoking the pipe throughout the first voyage, even when they return to Earth, but repeatedly self-consciously stopping and putting the lighter away, as a way of showing that he was still a by-the-book career officer. But once UN Forces High Command turns its back on the Macross, show him lighting up regularly, as a symbolic act of defiance!

I COPY you loud and clear on Hollywood bastardizations of good material. But I still dream of live-action films though, because they still seem more real to me. Animation works to a point, but it still always lacks something for me. I want that deeper, more visceral connection to the story than a cartoon can't provide, but which photorealism can. And since we still have the confusion over TV chrono/movie style, I think a series of films could help to give us the corrected, definitive version once and for all. In my dreaming mind, at least.

The reactor engine talk is fascinating and all, but other threads already exist for that. I was kinda wanting to limit this one to just the funky junk stuck up the Valks' tailpipes. No offense. Heat diffusers, eh?

It think that that is a limit of any armor technology. Strengthening materials can help to dissipate or redistribute impact forces through the material lattice of the armor up to a point, but there is probably always some sort of maximum threshold on the localized pressure that an armor rig can take. KEVLAR, for example, can take bullet shots from a distance where the bullet has slowed down a bit, but not usually direct, point-blank-range shots. The localized pressure exceeds the fibers' ability to redirect the shock laterally, and so the fibers fail and the impact breaches through to the wearer's body. Perhaps SW-AG is some sort of "force field" projected through the VF's metal skin, ala Star Trek? It can repel or dispel energy beams to a point, especially with respect to relatively-low-energy projectile mass impacts or large-area collisions; but up the energy amplitude or tweak it to the right frequency and get a direct hit, and you can slice right on through, like a bowie knife puncturing through a cop's vest. WORDS OF WISDOM: Never stop moving in a fight, because slowing down increases the chances of a direct, perpendicular hit. Glancing blows are always preferable.

Thank ye kindly, gents. I try. Gotcha. That would be more akin to actual US nomenclature, and it's what I meant to type, but I erred there. I thought that, as well. It seemed odd to me that the official chrono mentions the VF-X-2 not only so early, but before the VF-X-1. And why mention the VF-X-2 in connection with the VF-1? Here is the actual word-for-word text from the <official chrono>: When you consider the odd grammatical syntax in that line in addition to the other questions above, it makes me think that that line probably has a typo. As I now look at that line again, it looks like perhaps I mis-read it. Perhaps that line means that a conceptual fly-off was being envisioned between the VF-X-2 and the VF-X-1 (which would eventually lead to the VF-1). The competition wasn't between the VF-X-2 and a fighter to be known as the VF-1, per sé, as indicated above, but rather, the competition was between the VF-X-2 prototype and the VF-X-1 prototype, with the prize being selection as the operational fighter VF-1. So whom to contact: this...Egan Loo fellow?

Trying to trace the history of the development of the VF-0, and I could use a little help. (I did a search, but I couldn't find anything on this particular aspect.) The following is from the Compendium's info on the <VF-X-1> and the <VF-0>, and the relevant part of the <Chronology>. FEB-2002 - Tentative plan introduced for all-regime variable combat system for use against giants February 2002; UN Forces' basic requirement for system to incorporate aerospace fighting capability equal to the level of contemporary fighters and ground comabt capability comparable to Destroid series. Early 2003 - Development begins on a competing fighter to the F203 [to be known as] VF-X-2 to the fighter [to be known as] VF-1. United Nation Forces contract to Stonewell and Bellcom; Stonewell and Bellcom solicited the powerplant producer Shinnakasu Heavy Industry (co-developer of reaction engines) Stonewell and Bellcom solicited the ground weaponry maker Centinental (co-developer of Destroid series) as partners; 2005 - development team completed basic design 2005 Early 2006 - one non-transformable VF-X flight test machine and one transformable VF-X-1 produced; FEB-2007 - first flight February 2007; JUN-2007 - space-worthiness tests begin in June 2007. SEP-2008 - VF-0 deployed for actual combat and functional testing when delivery of VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed. Flown over the South Pacific Ocean island of Mayan during a secret program one to two years before Space War I. 23-NOV-2007 - Decision made to formally introduce the VF-X1 November 2007 (public roll-out) NOV-2008 - Development and mass production of VF-1A starts November and December of 2008 (First off, I have to say that the Macross "VF-X-1" nomenclature for prototypes is really cumbersome. I prefer the real-life US military system, which uses, for example, "XF-1" for an experimental prototype, "YF-1" for a more highly developed flying test prototype, and "F-1" for the operational model. For Macross purposes, "XF-1", "YF-1", and "VF-1" would've been a lot more user-friendly. ) 1. That said, I have some issues with the above chronology. The first one may simply be a typo. In the bolded part, it seems to indicate that the first VF model was the VF-X-2, which would eventually become the VF-1. Is that right? Or was it the VF-X-1 that led to the VF-1? Anyway, given that bolded info from the chrono, my idea is that perhaps the VF-X-1 could have been leading to the VF-0, while perhaps the VF-X-2 led to the VF-1. Loony hypothesis, but there ya go. 2. Alternatively, perhaps the relevant prototypes might've been called the "VF-X-1", which could've greatly resembled the VF-0 with conventional engines; and perhaps the "VF-Y-1", which might've used the new reactor engines and greatly resembled the VF-1. In aircraft history, there have often been very noticeable differences between the "X" and "Y" prototypes, just as I am suggesting here. Possibly the transforming "VF-X-1" prototype that Roy Fokker was testing in SDFM, Ep.33, should've actually looked more like the VF-0. Or maybe, because Roy's test bird there clearly closely resembled the VF-1, then perhaps he was actually testing the more advanced version of the VF-X-1, say perhaps a "VF-Y-1". Possibly the VF-X-1 prototype testing was going to be phased out when UN Forces brass caught wind of the thermonuclear reaction engine tech from Overtechnology research, and so the VF-X-1 testing was put on the back burner to continue ahead with VF-Y-1 testing. The decision could've already been made that the VF-Y-1 would definitely serve as the basis for the eventually operational VF-1. But then, when the reactor engines were delayed and the need for an immediately available VF arose in M0, the proven conventionally-powered VF-X-1 design which Fokker had already been testing was rushed into operational service as the "VF-0", in order to avoid confusion with the "VF-1" moniker, which had already been reserved by UN Forces brass for the service version of the VF-Y-1 reactor-powered prototype. Just trying to offer a feasible rationalization. That's all.

"SLITS" In the SDFM TV series (and maybe even a few scenes of DYRL?), a series of narrow horizontal orifices can be seen inside the exhausts of Valks, ahead of the vectored thrust nozzles/feet. There usually appear to be 5 such narrow openings, but sometimes as many as 7 depending on the animation & episode. They appear to expand outwards with the feet halves, like a peacock's tail feathers. "SLOTS" However, in the Yammy 1/48 toys, conventional round turbines or afterburner rings can be seen inside the exhausts, without the horizontal slits. So what was the purpose of such horizontal slits in the exhaust in the first place? Were they akin to the "platypus" exhaust of the F-117? Perhaps some sort of hardware familiar to nuclear devices? Or was it something else? And was there any particular reason for a transition to the more conventional-looking exposed round turbines in the Yammy toys (other than the relative simplicity of the mold)? It sure seems like sticking all that hardware up the engines' rear-ends would interfere with thrust.

OK. I think I understand, now. JsARCL, it's not what I wanted to hear, but it's what I suspected... Damn that almighty dollar! If they were to ever make movies, then it looks like they would seriously have to market/promote the hell out of the merchandising. I am reminded of the debacle of the resurrection of the Masters of the Universe in the last couple of years. Walmart gave Mattel a golden opportunity, but Mattel's mismanagement of that toy line extinguished Walmart's interest in the toys, which in turn killed both the toys and their associated new show. Which is all completely separate from the underwhelming quality of the resurrected show itself. It's sad that quality products often don't get matched to quality managers.

Thanks for the responses, guys, but methinks something was lost in the translation. I realize that other anime existed pre-RT, and was shown in the US. Certainly I recall Speed Racer and the seemingly neverending wave of super robot shows throughout the '70s. And I have read about the zeal of the almost "underground" cult fans of anime back in the day. But I guess what I'm asking though, is whether those shows were actually taken seriously here in the US, or merely laughed off as silly child's fare? And so, was RT taken more seriously, leading to a new respect for the genre? At some point, a transition definitely occurred, and I'm trying to pin it down, and determine what role RT/SDFM played in it. Sure, Speedy got lots of air time. But was he ever thought of as anything more than just a silly cartoon guy? Sure, Star Blazers adapted Yamato, but did it faithfully preserve the original storyline, or cop out and unload lowest-common denominator idiocy for dialog to appease the censors and networks stateside? As was said above, RT came and went here in the States in its first run. Was that because it was considered bad, or too serious/controversial/complex? Was it offed because it was considered too mature for kiddy fare? While the creators of SDFM originally envisioned the show as a comical satire against its robo-show predecessors, did the RT version nevertheless lead in the change of how anime is perceived in the West? Or was it anime fans who attempted an end-run around HG RT? Or was it the sum-total of zealous underground fans who did it with a whole slew of different anime shows, and SDFM was just one of many, and the Americanized RT takes far too much credit?

(Originally posted as a set of newbie Q's, but azrael suggested that this would be better subject matter for a separate thread.) QUESTIONS: Q1: Is there some sort of major historical significance to the original Macross TV series, which sets it apart from all other anime from its era in history? Did it feature something very unique and distinctive in either its concept, approach, animation, storyline, or distribution? Q2: Was RT the first animated program to win a big following in the States that wanted to go back to the original Japanese source material, only to run into a legal road block? If yes, does SDFM therefore represent some sort of "victory" of hardcore, conscientious anime fandom over the conventional television network/producer/etc. mindset? IOW, could RT/SDFM be said to have started a modern mainstream fascination with mecha anime as originally written, or to have spawned serious critical interest in mecha anime as a legitimate entertainment genre, to a greater extent than any other anime program before? (My apologies for mentioning them in the same sentence.) Were other animes all thought of as merely silly child's fare, or minor underground cult genre at best, while RT/SDFM somehow broke through to the masses? Or does that honor belong to another anime property? Or to no single specific anime at all? REASON WHY I ASK: If "they" were to ever make live-action films of SDFM, I think they would need to provide some sort of "hook" to producers and studio execs that sets SDFM apart from all of its other anime cousins. Some sort of historical significance or the like would go a long way towards that goal. From azrael's comments in the newbie thread about the show's creators' lack of interest, this might be a good idea to convince and motivate them, as well. EDIT: My focus is the original series, rather than the variants, in keeping with the "historical significance" angle.

(Perhaps a set of newbie Q's--perhaps better subject matter for a separate thread: you tell me.) Q1: Is there some sort of major historical significance to the original Macross TV series, which sets it apart from all other anime from its era in history? Did it feature something very unique and distinctive in either its concept, approach, animation, storyline, or distribution? Q2: Was RT the first animated program to win a big following in the States that wanted to go back to the original Japanese source material, only to run into a legal road block? If yes, does SDFM therefore represent some sort of "victory" of hardcore, conscientious anime fandom over the conventional television network/producer/etc. mindset? IOW, could RT/SDFM be said to have started a modern mainstream fascination with mecha anime as originally written, or to have spawned serious critical interest in mecha anime as a legitimate entertainment genre, to a greater extent than any other anime program before? (My apologies for mentioning them in the same sentence.) Were other animes all thought of as merely silly child's fare, or minor underground cult genre at best, while RT/SDFM somehow broke through to the masses? Or does that honor belong to another anime property? Or to no single specific anime at all? REASON WHY I ASK: If "they" were to ever make live-action films of SDFM, I think they would need to provide some sort of "hook" to producers and studio execs that set SDFM apart from all of its other anime cousins. Some sort of historical significance or the like would go a long way towards that goal.

IIRC, in the real world, originally student pilots trained in the same kinds of aircraft that they would go to war in. This was to make sure that they didn't waste time getting familiar with a plane that they wouldn't be fighting in, as well as to speed familiarization with the plane that they would be fighting in. The notion of trainer aircraft, I believe, came along later. Perhaps during the inter-war period between WWI & WWII. With the booming economy of the '20s and the reduced stress of peacetime, ideal, phased training systems could be devised and utilized. Pilots could begin with a bipe as a primary trainer, and then move on to the AT-6 as an "advanced trainer". Some combat aircraft were so tricky to operate, that new combat pilots still couldn't fly them well without additional training. Thus, some combat aircraft were designed with "T" variants just for super-advanced training, beyond the AT-6. Today, the US military still uses a system of primary and advanced trainers, though most super-advanced training that is specific to a particular combat model is done via simulator and familiarization flights with the actual combat aircraft. F-117 Nighthawk stealth attack pilots, for example, train in the same planes that they go to war in. In the Macross world, I imagine that "super-advanced" training would go on with a 2-seat Valk trainer like the VF-1D, as implied in SDFM, Ep.1. The VT-1, OTOH, could have been a SDF-1-specific variant dreamt up by the ship's engineers during the mission, post-spacefold. Perhaps they modified existing VF-1s to make VT-1s, since space flight and combat was clearly still very new and strange for most pilots. That Hikaru has a trigger to push, and that that trigger gives him an audible buzzer to indicate that firing is not possible, could be a sign that VT-1s may indeed be loadable with ordinance, even though that particular one clearly was not for that particular mission. (Kinda like going on a booty call without protection, if you ask me: he coulda, he just didn't wanta!) From a worldwide, national, or forcewide economical perspective, it would make sense to have dedicated trainers for primary and advanced flight training. But for super-advanced flight training, nothing would beat an actual Valk. And more importantly, it would definitely make more sense that the Macross crew would rig a trainer from existing airframes and spare parts, rather than have a completely separate dedicated trainer. Might as well skip the primary and advanced trainer stages, and just have one trainer that could do it all. The VT-1 would have to be a pretty forgiving, stable, etc., plane to work for brand-spanking new pilots, though. Even with the benefit of simulators.

From the series, Hik became a pilot before the ship approached Saturn (Ep.6). Since the movie begins near Saturn, you wouldn't need to show Hik undergoing training. He could already be a pilot before the movie begins. No problem. There was no need for the VG producers to change history and have him be a fighter pilot before the spacefold. And I disagree that there would be any major need to show the training of Kaki & Max, either. While sure, we know that they would've had to have undergone plenty of training, it wouldn't be necessary to show it. Look how the movie shows Max's transition to Q-Rau pilot: no transition at all; he's simply shown with the new mecha, without explanation. The movie moves too quickly for all sorts of events, so you can't really say that they had to feature the three as full-fledged pilots from the beginning for time purposes. Especially since the game opening sequence would've taken place months before the beginning of the movie. With that much time, there was definitely no time crunch necessitating the depiction of the three as military pilots from the beginning. It was a liberty taken without need. Style over substance. Appearance over accuracy. CGI would probably be even easier than making a fake ship, or shooting live action shots of the rebuilt Mak. In the Makuros world with Overtechnology benefitting so many different kinds of products and services, I wonder which would be easier and cheaper: to physically recreate the epic battles of SW1 with live action video, or to just CGI it. They certain use CGI for most air battle scenes in films of WWI & WWII these days, rather than physically creating life-size replicas for live action shots of everything. I imagine that this would hold true to an even greater extent in the Mak universe, because of the added expenses of space travel and the exotic fuels necessary. Bah! It doesn't hold up to harsh analysis. Just gotta shrug it off and look at the pretty artwork.

[broken into two posts because of length] Understood--continuity-wise, within the film. But why go to all the trouble to recreate the Prometheus, as they did in the VG, only to destroy it and use the ARMDs for arms instead? Since they could recreate the Prometheus believably enough to launch Valks off of it, then they could apparenlty recreate the surface ships believably enough to stick them on the sides of the Mak as arms, as well. The VG seems to have done it simply to prop up the movie's decision to off the Pro. But that doesn't explain why the moviemakers made that decision in the first place. Which just goes to back up my assertion that this is indicative of the HG school of continuity control. That could be the school motto. Or the main line of the school fight song! And how! A pull-out that runs smack dab right into difficulty when you consider that the TV history shows the ARMDs getting ganked in space nowhere near the Mak, while the movie designs show the ARMDs already docked with the Mak from the very beginning... You can't have it both ways. You need to pick one or the other, at least in this case. I choose the TV show, if for nothing other than nostalgia reasons... If they ever make live-action films of SW1 (count me in!), I hope they do combine them, as you describe here--but in a more consistent fashion.

Understood. The early real-world Pearl Harbor movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" featured US AT-6 Texan trainer planes rigged to vaguely resemble Nanchuukan (Japanese?) A6M Zeros, because real Zeros were so hard to come by after the war, and Texans were cheap and plentiful. So I totally get the rationale of using what was contemporarily available within the Macross timeline to do the DYRL movie. It's a real-life, demonstrated phenomenon in cinema. But if you were to make a movie ostensibly about WWII F4U Corsairs (1940s) but used 30-years-more-modern F-14s (1970s), changed the colors all around, featured ships that were not originally there, etc., you would get slammed. It looks like the movie/VG creators simply didn't sweat the details like today's more sophisticated, i.e. nerdy, fans. Not according to the <official chronology>. ARMD-III wasn't commissioned until the month after the Mak spacefolded the hell out of Dodge. But I guess the DYRL-creators could summon entire spaceships out of thin air too. That still doesn't make sense. If the fictional movie-makers could fabricate a realistic-looking Prometheus to launch Valks off of and saw in half, as depicted in the above clip, then they probably could've made decent-looking ships to stick onto the Mak for arms. They had the materials and wherewithal to reconstruct the Prometheus for the sea scenes, so you can't really say that they didn't have the ability to reconstruct the ships for use as arms within the fictional movie. It was probably a choice of appearance over accuracy, and nothing more: Hollywood-style. Or else, it was the result of a conclusion that surface ships would not be feasible as space vessels, no matter how much reworking was done. Perhaps that was why the Pro/Dae were scrapped and replaced with the original ARMD arm concept? Nonsense. They could've just shown Roy introducing Kaki and Max as new team members to Hik in one of the many lounge/hallway scenes, and then shown them flying as part of the team from there on out. It wouldn't've had to take more than 30 seconds. It was unnecessary. It was probably just an artistic choice. Or a goof.

FNG here. That clip had some sort of music superimposed over it. Here is a YT video clip with <the original dialog/sound effects>, without the tunes. --- At the end of the music video version, you can see the SDFM lifting off (from South Ataria Island, I presume) with the ARMD's already attached. I guess they weren't involved in a separate opening space battle of SW1 at all. So here, Hikaru, Max, and Kakizaki are all supposed to have already been commissioned fighter pilots on Earth before the spacefold, the alternate-color scheme Enhanced Valks were already deployed on the Mak's first voyage, and the ARMD's were never intended to be stand-alone orbital defense craft at all? Seems like the DYRL/PS peeps went to the HG school of continuity control...