sketchley

Easiest way to clear up this debate: animators (and movie production companies in general) prefer to do the least amount of work possible. In other words, the jet is merely a slight modification to the CG model of the MiG 29 seen in episode one. How many changes did they make? Canards and different colours on the skin. How much money did they save the production budge? No idea - and nothing came up on google. But it's bound to be a lot cheaper to make two changes than comission a whole new model.

Agreed. Otaku has become rather strong in meaning, and polite Japanese generally prefer to say something negative in a strong way. From worst to best: Otaku mania/maniac tsu (fan)

You can rent them at any of the big international airports. HOWEVER, you have to apply to rent them about a week in advance. The one in which my dad got when he came was bare bones - yes, my latest mobile phone here in Japan has GPS, and a lot of groovy navigation features, however that doesn't come with the barebones one. Also, GPS isn't really helpful without a good map - I've seen a lot of maps in Japan (purchased some too), and I would describe it as difficult to navigate via GPS. It'd be a lot easier to show someone the name of the place that you want to go to =in Japanese= and hope they can give you directions. The system of navigation I have relyed upon here is figuring out where the nearest station is to where I want to go, and using a map (if you don't have one with you, all stations have a local area map) to figure out the route in between. No idea about skiing other than it is expensive - and that's for my home country! I think there are some nice parks and stuff in the Tsukuba area - but pending your interest, you may have more fun hoping on the direct train to Akiba, and spending your day there. Oh, I was thinking about when travelling to Kyoto - most of the major, or best attractions, are only accessible by bus (or on foot, but I don't recomend walking, unless you REALLY know what you're doing.) The easiest way to get it is at a kiosk outside of JR/Kintetsu/subway Kyoto station. Or from a bus driver - they generally do not speak any English whatsoever. You might be able to get it from a convenience store - but again, there's the language barrier for those that don't speak Japanese. Getting it at the kiosk is good, as they also give a bus route map of Kyoto, which has handy things like what buses are needed, and where to transfer to go to major attractions. http://j-hoppers.com/tip_j.htm has a list of prices for it, and the more expensive, but IMHO, unnecessary bus and subway ticket. Get this bus ticket in Kyoto if you plan to take a bus more than twice, otherwise it's not worth it. Of course, the afforemantioned Kansai-through pass also works with the bus, subways, and private railway in Kyoto - using that is recommended, if you're hotel is outside of Kyoto, and you plan to visit at least two seperate places. Also, when in Osaka (Tokyo, and other cities *may* have a variation too,) be aware of things like 'No my car day', and other discount tickets: http://www.kotsu.city.osaka.jp/english/ticket/index.html But remember, that this type of ticket is useful only within the city, and only on city provided public transportation - sometimes the private railways are faster and cheaper to get to where you want to go.

Me thinks that the anti-UN tactics were very well thought out for the battle: - a rouse attack, that drew half or more of the fighters; the rest of the UN fighters remaining in a defensive posture near the fleet. - a secondary rouse attack that occupied the remaining fighters - the SV-51 attack; which makes it all the way to the carrier. Though, it is speculation, and the only support that the main force of fighters were seeing action elsewhere is that Shin was contacted and alerted to the impending attack before the SV-51 were shown; SV-51's being stealthy and launching from a submarine, and generally being undetectable by conventional means. Maybe the UN fleet detected the approaching anti-UN fleet (the MiG, and Octos have to have some kind of a support fleet too) and scrambled their fighters. Edgar also had enough time to fly out to rendevous with Shin...

監察 = Inspection 監察軍 = Inspection Army/Troop Try it for yourself if you don't believe me: http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/ It should be noted that one of the 漢字 used in the term is also used in the word for Police - giving the nuance of: (Police) Inspection Army. Source of the 監察: Macross Perfect Memory Pg. 181. "監察軍戦艦(クラッシュド)". It also shows up in the timeline on page 54 of the same book. Me thinks it is a bit of this going on here: http://www.unique-design.net/library/false.html

Quick note on the Japanese: most of the time, terms, concepts, and words do not translate easily, or exactly into words in another language. The Japanese word used to describe the Inspection/Supervision Army is just that - one of those words that, in Japanese, encompasses both words and more, but also less than either of those two words strictly state, in English. The two words could be considered interchangeable, but if one knows the origin of the army, and it's first role, then a better idea of which of those two English words would be the more applicable one. I personally favour Inspection Army, as it implies a fleet being created to go and inspect the out come of the Protoculture experiments that lead to the Protodevlin - possibly even a fleet sent after the Protodevlin emerged. On the other hand, Supervision Army implies one that was created at the start of that Protoculture project... so yeah, I prefer Inspection, as there is more drama implied by it.

MAHQ's article predates the publication of the book. The book was published 2005.6.01.

Kazutaka Miyatake's design works has the mecha lumped in with the Nousjadel-Ger, semi-supporting it's designation of Nousjadel-Ger-kai. (pg. 29 and 30.) The focus is on the tv series Nousjadel-ger, with only a very small image of the movie version - as the movie version was designed by a different author than the book is focused on. Though, it is referred to as "Zentraedi Battlesuit" The Queadluun-Rau appears on the book too, but on Pg. 40 and 41, deep in the Macross Plus section, and following the YF-21 on pg. 39. Interestingly, the Nousjadel-Ger and friend are at the tail end of the Macross: the movie section, and only roughs from the design process appear in the Macross TV series section proper (pg 13, with both Nousjadel-Ger and Queadluun-Rau on the same page.)

? Moi? I've said all that there needs to be said, to date, and the opposition to the debate hasn't said anything new, or added anything that hasn't already been addressed previously. In addition, a few of the other posters are either directly supporting, or appear to be open to the possibility of some of the evidence, and concepts that I have been presenting. The only things that I have to add, is that I have been mulling over are the actual capabilities of the Destroyers. I'll be happy if they are recognized as being water/airtight (for the very least, as chemical/biological/nuclear warfare protection,) and that they have the capabilities to carry the Cheyenne Destroid. I think that, despite it not being directly seen in the animation, the carrier fleet is supported by a handful of submarines. For the simple reason of the added protection the sub-hunting subs provide.

Yes. I have not stated that a JR pass is not a good thing, just that for the needs of jwinges, it is bad advice due to the needs of his trip, and where he wants to go. First, he'll be coming from Tsukuba City to Tokyo. On the new Tsukuba express, direct line from Tsukuba to Toyko, the terminal station in Tokyo is in Akiba. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukuba_Express Tsukuba express is not a JR line. He also plans to travel to Kyoto and Osaka. I've already mentioned that there are both cheaper, or faster ways of travelling than via JR. In fact, with the JR pass, he'll have a limited number of Shinkansen trains in which to take between Kanto and Kansai. http://www.japanrailpass.net/eng/en001.html But, don't take my word for it. Here's an excellent article on the whole issue that highlights how useful a JR rail pass is in Tokyo, and the Kobe-Osaka-Kyoto corridor: http://greggman.com/japan/tokyo-trains/tok...ng=english%7C?q Here's a map of the rail lines in the Tokyo area (a bit out of date, it doesn't have the completed Tsukuba line): http://www.u-bourgogne.fr/monge/g.dito/poi...yo_trainmap.pdf Here's a rail map of Osaka - note the limited access of the JR lines: http://www.ofix.or.jp/travel/trans/images/RailMap.pdf Express buses between Tokyo and Osaka: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2366_osaka.html About 19 GBP one-way.

Agreed that i have a crappy fansub of episode 4, disagreed that I am the only one with a crappy fansub of episode 5. By the dialogue of the ships crew preceeding the activation of the (anti-gravity) generators, the impression I am left with is that the Birdman is powering itself, and not using the ship's systems as a jump-start. Visually it would be different too - arcs of electrical power, etc. were not seen. My impression is that the activation of the Birdman caused the (anti-gravity) generators to be activated as well - the mysteries of OT. It has been seen before with the buster cannon of the SDF-1 in the first episode of SDF:M. In addition, no shots of engines nor generators being powered up on the Anti-UN submarine were seen either. Neither were there power drains evident on either ship, adding further support to whatever happened being not a jumpstart, but secondary reactions due to the activation of the Birdman. See my preceeding post for my thoughts on the bad English in the line.

Kansai Surroto Pass English website: http://www.surutto.com/conts/ticket/3dayeng/index.html

No, no, no, no, no. Only get a JR pass if you are planning on travelling in areas where JR is the ONLY rail service. In big cities, there are also subways (2 seperate systems in Tokyo) AND private rail companies! There are far, far more convenient, and cheaper tickets. A good one, when visiting Kansai, is the Kansai Surutto 3-day ticket (also available in 2 day, and single day to specific locations.) If you really know what you're doing, you'll do 3 to 4 times the purchase value of the ticket. This ticket is effective in Kyoto, and Osaka - 2 cities were JR's service is less than good, and private rail and the subways more than make up for it. Tokyo, I don't live there. Avoid going to places to view cherry trees when they are blossoming. Calling them crowded is an understatement. PS Akilai, it's Ginkakuji, not Jinkakuji. Kyoto has restuarants that stay open until all hours of the night - I've eaten in them . My wife's sister's husband has a sushi shop that is open until the first trains of the next morning. If you are referring to temples, yes - be aware that temples and shrines generally close between 3 and 5 PM - but they do generally open earlier than anything else: 7 AM. It's Buddha time. And who's this Johnny Hillwalker? I've been to Kyoto numerous times too... Oh... Lonely Planet (and possible other) guidebooks on Japan are generally out-of-date, and are written by short-term travellers. In other words, some of the restaurants listed are not the best by any measure, and some of them listed are overpriced. Nara is a good place to visit (biggest Buddha in Japan, largest wood building in the world, one of the most famous shinto shrines in Japan, etc..) If you base yourself between Kyoto and Osaka cities, making day trips to Nara, Himeji, Koyasan, and possibly even Ise-penninsula (haven't done that yet - it's a bit far for a day trip.) Koyasan may well be worth your while, as it has more historical, religious, and art per block, than Kyoto - in fact, a lot of what can be seen in Kyoto can be seen there, but concentrated in a much smaller location. Visiting the biggest graveyard in Japan (located up there) is also a mind-boggling adventure - a graveyard that contains historical heavyweights like Nobunaga, Hideyoshi...

Oh, and start learning the language. At the very least, it'll help doors open quicker. At most, it'll help you start to understand the culture, which will make you good friends, and help you with your bottem line (as in: understand the words for "sale". So many foreigners who come here and never bother to learn the language litterally walk past so many bargains it's not funny. All because they never bothered to learn one or two words; and yes, they usually end up buying the same thing for a more expensive price.)

Advice - read more than one guide book, as they all have different points of view, and highlight different aspects of the country and culture. Also check out some of the information that may be available through your nearest Japanese embassy, (your country's) embassy in Japan, and any local Japan travel bureau agencies that you can find near you. Take note of local holidays. One of my more pleasant memories, is the picture of a wide-eyed white tourists in Korea, walking past an entire city of closed shops, because they didn't bother to check on Korean holidays nor realize that during Korean thanksgiving EVERYONE closes up shop, and returns to their hometown. There are a few times of the year that the same happens in Japan. When my parents came to Japan, they stayed at Leo Palace 21. Mind you, they stayed for 3 weeks in the same place. the location was good, roughly mid-way between Osaka and Kyoto, making both cities easily accessible for day trips. Believe me, 3 weeks was not enough, and they barely scratched the surface of things to see. The best thing you can do is read guides and information, and make a list of 'would be nice to see' spots. Don't make any hard plans, as once you're hear you might want to visit some place that you didn't know about until after arriving, or you might end up spending a full day at only one site, despite a bunch of other equally intersting sites within a few blocks. Make a (Japanese) friend here before coming via an IM service - or even better, a traveling Japanese in your place of residence. They will be better than the perfect guides. On the airports - Narita generally has the most connections to different places outside of Japan. The new Chuo-bu airport in Nagoya is offering some strong competition to Kansai airport, and it may be cheaper to fly into there, and take a train into Kinki. For transport between Kansai and Kanto, there are numerous options. The cheapest is a red eye bus. The fastest would be a flight - after the new Kobe airport opened, it was cheaper to fly from Kobe to Haneda then it was to take the shinkansen. It probably still is. But, don't be afraid to take an overnight train or some other means that'll allow you to see more of the country. As far as shopping goes, the general rule of thumb is: the easier and/or more convenient it is to get to, the more expensive it'll be. Some of the best places to buy anime and manga goods are slightly off the beaten path. Mandarake is a good place to start, but surprisingly, I've been finding some really good stuff at Book Off for dirt cheap prices.

Remember, this is a Japanese animation. In Japan, what is not said is sometimes just as meaningful and important, if not MORE meaningful and important, than what is said. With the Japanese language, it's best to consider that if it is not directly mentioned, it is open to possibility. Graham mentioned this earlier in this very thread - and I am of the belief that he is aware of this because of where he lives (HK, the last I heard.) People of Asian cultures have a different perceptions of the world than of those cultures that originated in Europe. I have always been of the opinion that the Birdman was what initiated, and controlled the ship(s) anti-gravity. I merely differ on the location of the means of locomotion. The destroyers are another issue on their own - they were also floating, and by the opinion in the preceeding paragraph, the Birdman caused them to float to. It is equally possible that they have anti-gravity generators, as it is for them to be effected by the anti-gravity generator(s) inside of the Asuka II (either the birdman, or the carrier, or both.) The only good reason for having the destroyers float is to remain at the carrier's side if it were to levitate to orbit - thus maintaining their roles as escorts. Yes, and no. It was shown that the VF-0 can operate for short periods of time with the air intakes closed. There is also the possibility of FAST packs and additional manuevering thrusters that can be added. Of course we should keep in mind that the VF-1 was already designed at the time, and the only delays in its release were due to the thermonuclear reaction engines. Its entirely possible that when the design of the Asuka II was approved, UNS felt that by the time the ship was deployed, there'd be a compliment of VF-1 for it. There is also the possibility of replacing it's compliment with the space fighters available at the time (Hound Dog, Lancer II, etc..) Of course, this is speculation, and the Asuka II could simply be a test bed for some of the reverse engineered OT found on the SDF-1 - the prelude to the Prometheus. Agreed that the first three Oberth space destroyers were launched in 2005 (with a total of 125 by the battle with Bodolza) - but remember the history of those first three destroyers - one is hijacked by the anti-UN and used to destroy the returning 'fleet' from Mars, and later being destroyed by another destroyer under the command of Gloval. The Prometheus was 'commissioned' in 2005 - presumably the Asuka II was some time before then. The ARMD (space carriers) were not, however, commissioned until 2009 and later. Meaning that there was no space going carriers until then - thus giving some need to having (conventional) carriers equipped with anti-gravity to perform carrier operations, if needed, in orbit. BTW, IMHO, this discussion of anti-gravity generator or not is relevant to a discussion of the Asuka II. Apologies if you feel otherwise. Grimlock - I was thinking about your post, and the conclusion that I came to is that in navel or ocean-going craft terminology, watertight predates the concept of airtight. There is also less explanation needed when someone mentiones watertight to a mariner (water is kept out = good.) I agree with your thoughts about the fate of those on the Prometheus and Daedelus - perhaps the translations are incorrect, and most, if not all, of the crew that was inside of the ship survived - with only those outside, on the flightdeck, being killed. I have that fan sub too, and to be honest, the line makes no sense whatsoever. It implies that the birdman has taken control of gravity away from Earth! In episode 4 the fansubber has Nora requesting nuclear weapons to bomb Mayan Island - a completely retarded, tactical blunder! They want to capture the Birdman, not irradiate it so that any scientists investigating it die in the process. Not to mention that the bombs at the end of the episode don't explode like a nuclear bomb - they do explode like fuel-air bombs, which is in agreement with what the compendium states that the SV-51 is able to carry: Daisy Cutter fuel-air bombs. Bad English and bad fansubs aside, IMHO, I think the line should be "it is controlling anti-gravity." Though, without the actual Japanese script, the line could be something that the fansubber made up entirely - the Nora/nuke thing leaves me with high doubts about that fansubbers competence with the Japanese language...

Good points. Save that the similar looking engines in the SDF-1 ARE described as anti-gravity generators, in Japanese. Macross Zero is guilty of poor story-telling (start of episode 5, for example,) and so too is SDF:M. Mind you, would it be interesting to see the crew recovering and replacing the anti-gravity generators? No, it takes away from the main storyline of the show, and what the creators want to do in it. Keep in mind that stranger things have occured in fiction. A recent example would be Star Trek: Enterprise, and how it set up events that were part of a TV series produced some 30 years before it. Macross Zero also makes similar assumptions of it's viewers, in as much as that they are aware of some of the basic concepts of Macross - transforming VFs, OT,(giant sized) aliens, and the power of song/music. I guess it also falls into the nature of the audience too - some audiences want or need all the little detail, whereas others either like the mystery, or can figure things out on their own. All that is being asked is that things be looked at with an open mind. This could very well be one of those cases of 'just because the ships can, doesn't mean that they will.' Or, why was the crew of the Asuka so relaxed when their ship started to float in the air? Even with discipline there appeared to be no surprise that the ship is floating, and carrier operations continued normally. I can agree that the birdman instigated, and possibly controlled the anti-gravity generators, but I beg to differ on the actual means of propultion.

It's very possible that the original generators, once they were out of the hull, lost power, and fell back to the island - subsequently being folded along with the SDF-1, and being salvaged from the wreckage of the island. That, or new ones (that worked properly ) were built inside of the SDF-1 during it's return voyage. They definitely had the means, materials, and time, as during the same period, they kept their fighters well stocked, made new fighters, and not only built an entire city inside the ship, but rebuilt it after it was destroyed when the ship transformed at Saturn! Despite it only being 4 episodes later, a number of months passed. Now the funny thing about those anti-gravity engines (as per Macross Perfect Memory,) they are always and ONLY seen immediately before a ship begins using anti-gravity. There is nothing in the lineart contained within Macross Perfect Memory on the 'main engines' of the SDF-1, however, the fold drive can be seen both before (pg. 144) and after (pg. 145) the fold to Pluto, and after (pg. 143) the barrier system has been installed where the fold drive used to be. "Macross Special Preview: Do you remember love?" states that the lower 1/3 of the lower legs are the "main reaction engine" - which makes sense, as that is where the engine nozels are. The upper 2/3 of the lower legs contain the food (life necessity) production block, and (civilian) living quarters in the starboard, and the "busy city" in the port. The military block is in the central chest, with the main waste (garbage) incinerator composing the spine. The two "breasts" contain the sub-reaction engine, and the anti-gravity engines, and the two 'prongs' above the shoulders contain the 'booster cannon.' (pg. 44) No pictures of the actual main engines, but some groovy picts of a young Mari Iijima, and some funky model kit bashes.

Use the anti-gravity generators as a gravity drive. It's not the most manueverable drive system, but it gets the job of transporting stuff (a squadron of fighters, cargo, etc.) to orbit.

That's the best render in 2D and 3D that I have seen of that Flashback 2012 Megaroad-01 support ship! Kudos! Though, on another forum, the consensus was that the nose of that ship was taken from a Zentraedi destroyer and that it contained Zentraedi sensor technology. That was about the extent of what was agreed upon.

The rocks are an entirely seperate issue, as, namely, the birdman is nowhere near them when they are floating. Let's move the spiritia empowered rocks discussion to another thread. The gravity generators on the SDF-1 pulled out for any number of reasons - most likely improper mounting and/or the very frame of the SDF-1 was damaged (and never fixed) when it crash landed. In other words, the ol' "we didn't know that it was broke in the first place" process of reverse engineering. And, don't you mean that the humans couldn't integrate the generators properly into an OT ship? The SDF-1 was never a human ship. Maybe it was renovated to become one. Maybe. Lastly, the fleet in Macross Zero was obviously operational. The first launching that we saw of the SDF-1 was the very first launching of that ship. It didn't have any 'sea' trials, and they had no idea how many bugs were in the ship (as is the case of any new ship being launched.)

They had Mayan glyphs painted on them, and it was the spiritia power of Sara that powered them. A new thought on the Asuka II (and other) anti-gravity debate: why do the ships remain floating after the parts of the birdman have left? By the logic of the arguements against the ship(s) having anti-gravity generators, the ships should have immediately begun falling after the birdman left.

Anime52k8, reread my earlier post, as I put in a potential reason why the destroyers would be equipped with them. Regarding the Prometheus and Daedalus in space: There has been discussion that because anime company 'a' produced the animation of certain episodes, as opposed to anime company 'b', or 'c', that they have a higher number of 'animation errors.' Well, that could be true, HOWEVER, Macross Zero is considered to be free from animation errors, yet it also has navel ships that float, and contain OT generators that look very, very, very similar to the anti-gravity generators that the SDF-1 was equipped with. Makes you think, don't it - makes me think that the ship/position changes that Azrael pointed out could have been the *real* error, and ALL of the ships were meant to be in that scene :!: As for the crew of the Daedalus and Prometheus being killed - the fold came as a surprise to them, right? That would mean that all, if not most of the doors were left open. We are talking about ships that are also semi-submersible, right? At the very least, they would be able to seal the hatches to prevent decompression, despite whatever your opinion is on their ability to 'fly.' Re: the gun barrels I reviewed the rest of episode 5 (have yet to do that for the preceeding four episodes) and the one or two 'good' images that show both gun emplacments are not clear - thus not conclusive. The size of the gun barrel on the left side does appear to be smaller - but that could just be shading, my eyes, etc.. What I suspect is that the frame-model designer merely cut and pasted the same gun design on both sides of the ship. I still maintain the assertation that the gun on the left side of the ship is a non-OT beam cannon. Perhaps some kind of a rail cannon?

I think that both you and the compendium may both be right. Looking closely at the image, the guns, though similar looking, have different sized barrels. Perhaps only one of them is the OT beam gun, the other being a more 'tried and true' conventional cannon of some kind. The compendium lists the OT beam gun as being on the starboard side - starboard being the right side, and the gun on the right side being the one with the larger barrel...

Ok, than please explain what the machinery inside of the Asuka II is, which is activated just before the carrier floats - said machinery looks exactly like the anti-gravity generators on the SDF-1, as per the first two episodes of SDF:M. On the (Japanese) DVD for episode 5, it is viewable in chapter 2, at 4:57 to 5:00. Both the Daedalus and Prometheus were seen in space, in orbit around Earth, in the second episode of SDF:M. Obviously they got their under their own power, and they obviously don't have large rocket engines. Thus they must have achieved orbit via anti-gravity. I fully agree that the AFOS/birdman made them float, just that it did so via powering mechanisms inside of the human ships.