GuardianGrey

Seto Kaiba, on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

That'd be premature... and I really wish you'd stop trying to crowbar that baloney acronym in.

Response:

I can see your point of view, Seto Kaiba.

Though, I do not have the knowledge-base resources you and others here have (had to chose not to follow the subject closely after M+ OAV, due to money related priorities). As such, what I may view as an inconsistency most likely does have an explanation that I do not yet know of. Until the point I have the proper information known to me, it is still ANIME.

I do thank you, & the others here, for explaining much that I did not have knowledge of which is making it harder for me to view the questionable material without an explanations.

I'll start saving that acronym for the inconsistencies of other anime series, like Lum & GUNDAM.

Seto Kaiba on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

Nah, we see Sheryl operate (...) Michel's VF-25G without EX-Gear in Macross Frontier's TV series.

Response:

I seen the picture, Seto Kaiba, and your point that one can operate a VF that is equipped for EX-Gear can still be used without the suit.

My intent was, without additional preparations of adding a control seat for the pilot to a VF rigged for EX-Gear it would be difficult/impossible to operate (though now assuming the passenger area is equipped with controls for the VF-25).

Main reference I would sight is in (I believe) episode 1, were Alto Saotome hopped into Henry Gilliam's VF-25F. Would Alto have been able to use the VF-25F without his PS/ML-21 EX-Gear on?

Seto Kaiba on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

As far as I'm aware, the actual inspiration the design comes from one Kawamori's pre-Macross projects... Genocideas

Response: O_o
I did not know of that, & pre-dating the Macross franchise??
Dang, Shoji has a very creative mind-set.

______________________________

Mr. March on 23 March 2015 - 20:57, said:

The YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II actually does have several VTOL components, including propulsion in the feet.

Response:

I see & understand the Slits, Mr. March. When I used the GERWALK mode ventral view of the YF-21 from the Macross Mecha Manual site, stechley seemed to think I was referring to the extended knee joint as the slits. Though I seen that as the misunderstanding, and have moved on.

As for the propulsion in the feet of the YF-21/VF-22, Mr. March, I was under the impression that they were just really big vernier thrusters. This was due to the installation of sub-hovering nozzles placed into the legs of the VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei (under Program on the Macross Compendium's site).

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-22HG_Schwalbe_Zwei

Though, that may have been a misconception I had. And, if such, I will agree that I was wrong.

Oops, sorry there Valkyrie Driver, & you are right.

For some funny reason I though the VF-11 was called Thunderbolt II, & it is just called Thunderbolt. Though, I agree that it would be the III if they numbered it.

I also understand the design differences, Valkyrie Driver. The prior posting was how do the VF get their upgrades, so I did wander from topic, not so much on the design/decision of what gets the update/upgrade.

I did not know the F-16 Agile Falcon was an early ATF candidate.
Upon viewing of Wikipedia, I found that the F-16 LOAN (Low Observation Asymmetric Nozzle) was used test several aspects for exhaust/thrust for the JSF program.
I still feel the F-16 (original, F-16XL, as Andras said, or F-16AT that lead to the F-22's wing design) is better than the F-35 A/C units. And the F-35B (the only one that can VTOL) only has the advantage over the AV-8B in speed.

Seto Kaiba, on 20 March 2015 - 14:08, said:

I don't think we see the YF-21 coaxial gun fire, but the bits that end up on the hips are were the gunpuds are stored.

Response:

Then I am going to chalk this up to ANIME*, for the line art of the ventral (and almost all the toys) have the gun-pods on the outside of those panels.

Fighter mode (with duel gun pods) multiple views: http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21/yf-21-fighter-gunpod.gif

YF-21 and VF-22 fighter (ventral view) comparison: http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/compare-yf21-vf22-fighterventral.gif

Though, it being stowed behind said panel makes since as YF-21 transformed from battroid to fighter-mode after shooting at Isamu when they got past the "hot point" of reentry & the gun-pod 'vanished'. The other point was when the YF-21 was knocked to the ground in the City-fight on earth and whips out (of seeming nowhere) the gun-pod to have Isamu reverse the YF-19's advance.

Then, that makes me wonder are the 'holes' near the forward/hip joint area of the panels are firing-ports to allow the gun-pod to be used in fighter mode when stowed?
And, if they are stowed internally with the holes being ports, & pair was external on the YF-21/VF-22, would that allow the unit to hit a target with rounds from 4 GV-17L gun-pods?
Gun-pod version of Itano Circus?

Seto Kaiba, on 20 March 20115 - 14:08, said:

Nah, that is just the variable chamber wing mechanism... which works a bit like an active aeroelastic wing, just turned up to 11

Response:

I can see that comparison, Seto Kaiba, though I still think that an electro-flexible smart material is helping it get to that 11, though that is my opinion.

______________________________

Thanks, Valkyrie Driver, though I can see that the Virgin Galactic stock holders not happy about that development.

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

Okay, other than looking up something that was being talked about over on the AVF Update Candidate topic, I think I have ran out of the real & bleeding edge tech that goes into the VF frame & systems.

Though other than what I am looking up, the only other thing I have realized that has not been touched on is the EX Gear, which is & is not related to VF aircraft.

It is in the way as one pointed out, "it is a core fighter that you wear," with it being the cockpit systems, and the unit is (to my knowledge) impossible to operate without.

The way that it is not VF aircraft tech is the Power Armor/Suit functions. though the basic frame is familiar to many others (do to it being the simplest answer for a frame around a human body), there are a few that predate MF that could have been pulled from.

1. Cyberdyne's HAL 5 (also known as HAL for Whole Body), no don't laugh at the name of the company or the product. Okay, do so then we can get serious.
   It is a Japanese company that the founder wanted to aid medical facilities. They have reportedly turned down US military inquiries for they system.
2. DARPA's XOS-2; which if you seen 'Edge of Tomorrow" you see the a version there of, considering that the budget was cut for the Raydon company's unit and it is classified as only a proof of concept piece.
   The same idea was then used in Sledgehammer Games (with cooperation with DARPA) Call of Duty; Advanced Warfare, which in one of the trailers you get their exo-suit like the EC-Gear is stored in.

The rest is speculation, though shows that the baby steps are there.

____________________________________________

(* = ANIME; Any Noticeable Inconsistency May Exist)

Okay, Mr. March, I see the numbers and agree. Dang, I did not know that many VF-4 Lighting III were made! O_o And here I thought the VF-4 was one of the least produced VF units (or the least animated of the ones seen on screen). So, having more VF-11 Thunderbolt II makes perfect sense, especially with so many different factories on frontier worlds & immigration fleets making them.

Okay, I did not know how big was BIG for the pictures, Mr. March. If I find any published work, I will allow my workplace to do the scans. I am employed currently at a book factory, and they have the ability to process jobs from physical to data files. So, I figure an industrial grade image scanner should work well enough.

Ah, okay then, Seto Kaiba. *chuckle* I had taken inspiration from the New Horizion game to do my own campaign, though died off after about a year of play.

What I feel you are saying about the character Hakuna Aoba, Seto Kaiba, is that he is the Vanquish Race's equivalent to Lanchpad McQuack. As such, I would agree with the roundtable deciding not to put an ISC in the VF-0kai, because no amount of his 'special operations' success would clear that record away.

Nice Star Wars reference there, JBO, & May the Spiritia be with you.

Tangent; Is there a connection to Spiritia Energy & Fold Waves? And as such, would it then make said energy the Macross Continuum's version of the Force?

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

AVF Upgrade Candidate - How is it Done?

I was thinking on this after my post about the VF-11MAXL-kai and the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor, how does one Update VF units?

The following is my logical musings on the matter, with VF units I feel fit each style and a real world example. This is only my opinion on this thought path.

There are, I feel, three ways to get a VF upgraded, Pro-shop, Factory Modification/Upgrade or New Production/Remanufactured.

Pro-shop route has the widest range of variables that not only can make/brake a 'new' unit, though that boils down to what the shop has as resources. The three main levels of Pro-shop seem to be, and may mix between:

• A small (though maybe well known) engineer/mechanic set that may do one (or two) off(s) that specialize in the field for that customization.
  Real life that fit this Profile; Shown on programs like Counting Cars, Fast & Loud, Street Outlaws (for illicit racing Mods) & Sons of Guns (they have done at least three different vehicle modifications in the series) are examples. The may not have the parts on hand, or the proper expertise to not have a technical difficult while doing the project, though they get the job done.
  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; VF-0 "Angel" package, SDP-1 Stampede, VF-1++, VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor
• A small team of recruited engineers/mechanics that are brought together to do the customizations/modifications for a specific outcome that may include one or more units (rarely more than 5) produced. Though their work may spin off into a production.
  Real life that fit this Profile; shown in programs like American Chopper: The Series (Paul Jr. Designs), Overhauling (more than one modification for handicap) & Monster Garage (mix building to the eXtreme)
  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; all the Sound Force VF kai units (the installation/modification of cockpit controls & all the light/sound equipment), VF-11B Nothung II
• A team of engineers/technicians recruited to make/upgrade a set of units (one at least, usually no more than 5) with the ability to call in representatives of the companies of the parts they are using, if not have new components made specifically for them (usually less than 72 hours of request) which may lead to production.
  Real life that fit this Prolife; Some high-end shops that do vintage restorations, Boeing Phantom Works, Lockheed Skunk Works (shown in Nova's episode Battle of the X-Planes)
  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; VF-X-1, YF-19, VF-19ACTIVE, YF-22, YF-27-5 Shaher Femail, YF-29 Durandal among others that were YF &/or VF-X units.

Factory Modifications/Upgrades are as they say, modifications/upgrades that are done in a factory. This could be that the unit in production will get addition equipment/options as a 'special order' that the plant has in stock, or the diversion of a number of units for a "limited edition" modifications package. The other is that regional Manufacturing may have the units differ even if they are made by the same standard

Real life that fit this Profile; almost any car manufacturing company, for color, body options &/or engine/drivetrain. the B-25 Mitchell (C/D units only differed in manufacturing location)

VF that fit being built/upgraded this way' VF-9E Cutlass, VF-11D-kai (M7, at that time the Project: Fire team had standardized the light/sound/spiritia equipment), VF-11MAXL, the Sound Force kai units (base forms minus the light/sound equipment, though later the VF-11MAXL-kai due to unit destruction), VF-19C/MG21, VF-19EF

New Production/Remanufacturing is nothing new. As Valkyrie Driver pointed out with the F/A-18 Super Hornet & F-15SE Silent Eagle (funny, both are now Boeing products) are new production runs with the issues resolved to allow updates with newer features (like lower radar cross-sections, higher wing/frame stress levels newer equipment). This was dissimilar to the F-5E Tiger II & F-20 Tigershark production runs that had a wider gap between units.
The M1A2 Abrams is a remanufactured unit (there, to my knowledge, have been no new chassis/frames made since 1996), and is the only large scale remanufacturing of units I have heard of, other than book rebinding. Remanufacturing for updates has the advantages of;

• Recycling; less new materials used in the 'new' unit if the parts still are up to the required specifications.
• Tested Quality; with the parts that still met spec & have no faults, you know they should last.
• Lower Cost; with the recycling, the overall cost of new parts would make it be more expensive than when the unit was new, though cheaper than the units it is trying to be contemporary with. Also, nostalgia can be a very powerful (and problematic) thing.

The only noted Macross VF to get the Remanufactured Treatment (an possible limited new production run) has been the VF-1X Valkyrie Plus, at this point in time.

If your opinion differs, let it matter by having it being heard! DECULTURE!!

That does look like it could have been the inspiration for the firing port on the bottom of the YF-21/VF-22 there, Valkyrie Driver.

Something I feel that the studio rarely does for Macross is to have enough scenes that show different angles, with at least one per shot per weapon fired.

Example: In M+, I seen not animation of the Wing's lasers being user of the YF-19, nor did I witness the lower weapons ports that are on the hips or the head laser to 'discourage' pursing craft from following of the YF-21 used. I do understand for a short run OAV that there may not have been time/budget for, though did they show said weapons used on the VF-19 & VF-22 in the M7 installments?

---------- Back to Topic ----------

On the next thing I have to say on this topic, I can not find any good visually representations, so the reader may have to suspend there belief in reality & use their imagination.

We all have heard that in the Macross series of the SWAG Energy Converting Armor, and may think that sounds cool though not real.

Well, with different Smart Materials are that being developed, that might not be the case for much longer. For there are many that react differently to various stimuli.

Some do as the SWAG is presided as to become 'harder' (locking the molecules in tight position without contracting mass) &/or acting like a non-Newtonian fluid (you hit it hard & it reacts as a solid, you push gently & you go through the surface like a thick liquid; one version was shown on Mythbusters when a lot of cornstarch is added to water) though staying as a solid (I believe the movie The Core, that the Unobtainium works on this belief).

Others change there shape upon polar flow of electrical current. This more dramatic effect could/would explain the dramatic wing movements of the YF-21, when Guld 'flexed' it on the tarmac in the beginning of M+. Though it may not be armor, the flight surface material is of importance to anyone flying.

I do thank you, Mr. March & Seto Kaiba, for both your work on the Macross Mecha Manual.

Your insistence for the Highest quality scans, Mr. March, is standard many fan sites should (& they don't) strive for.

The highest resolution (assumed scans) of the SW-AX1 Schneeblume I can find on the net are the one's used by Macross: New Horizon Wiki as art/filler for their fan-unit SV-37 used in the Macross:New Horizon MUSH. I have tried to contact them to ask about the art/scans, though have gotten no response to date.

Their SV-37 Raven page, if you want to look; http://www.macrossnewhorizon.org/mediawiki/index.php/SV-37_Raven

______________________________

AVF Candidate Upgrade - VF-0 Phoenix

GuradianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said:

[...]

After Reading Seto Kaiba's response on the ICS, I agree that it may not be able to go in, though how big is the IVCS?

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

It's not a size concern, but rather that there is some unspecified aspect of the designs of some VFs that make them incompatible with the ISC. The exact nature of the incompatibility is not elaborated upon, unfortunately, however the VF-0 is possibly incompatible, the Zeak doesn't have one listed in its stats.

Response:

I know that information you gave me, to the point that I had already agreed with your response about the ISC use in a VF-0 frame..

My original question was could a IVCS be used in a VF-0 frame (for the proposed AVF Upgrade to 2059 specifications of the VAL-0B proposal), because the ISC maybe incompatible?

Since you, Seto Kaiba, have brought up in prior posts that the VF-0kai Zeak may have been used as a technology test-bed of systems; perhaps the round-table decision to not include the ISC was made then. It was the Macross Galaxy Guld Work's choice to only use two engines & no ISC in the YF-27-5 Shaher Femail, so why could the same not be true of the VF-0kai? By the statistical data, the Zeak is almost a VF-25 in the shell of a VF-0A.

______________________________

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-11 Thunderbolt II

GuardianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said:

Mr. March looked and commented that the most likely candidate for the posting was the VF-11 due the number of VF units produced (second only to the VF-1, I believe), which was seconded by Valkyrie Driver.

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

The chief issue there being the aforementioned problems the VF-11 shares with virtually every other aircraft that could potentially be upgraded to AVF tech levels... insufficient structural strength, limited internal space in the airframe (relative to AVFs) and issues with AVF-level tech.

Response;

Your comment here mirrors your earlier post(s), and farther into my prior post I had pointed said out, though I will repost my response to said quote again;

On the Thunderbolt Interceptor, I believe it is due to the power drain of controlling/using the PPB that shuts down long range sensors there of. Considering, as Seto Kaiba pointed out, that a PPB uses more than half (60-70%) the power-output of the two FF-2200 turbines in a VF-19A. It seems though that the VF-11 kai-units (the MAXL-kai & D-kai, which use lower out-put turbines) have full use of fighter-scale PBS without any adverse effects to other systems. I feel this maybe due to how the units had there PBS installed (M7's kai had the Three-Star factory ship while the Thunderbolt Interceptor was done in a hanger?).

I had looked at the Macross Compedium's pages for the VF-11 (for information on the MAXL kai) & the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor, and noted that they use different identified turbines though both are supposedly from the VF-16.

Also, that the Thunderbolt Interceptor uses a battery based system to power the PPB which was specifically modification for that unit, not like the M7 kai-units that used the (assumed) turbines there for. This seems to support my opinion that it was the installation of the equipment, not the systems or original framework of the unit, that caused the issues for the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor.

VF-11 Thunderbolt II; http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-11_Thunderbolt

VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-11_Thunderbolt_Interceptor

______________________________

AVF Update Candidate - Timeframe & Design Considerations

GuardianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said: (Italics were left out from context)

If I am reading it right (though the Macross Compendium needs to intergrade the Macross R information better), the UN military did a call-out for AVF 'proof of concept' units in 2034, with the final candidates for Project: Super Nova decided upon in [2038-39]. As Seto Kaiba pointed out, some of the VF units within Macross R competing in the Unlimited Class races are a few of the 'losers' from the AVF selection.

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

That's not quite what I said actually... the VF-9E, etc. were unrelated efforts to upgrade existing fighters to AVF standards, a job which was generally abandoned as impractical if not downright dangerous. (e.g. the VF-9E, VF-11MAXL, VF-171EX)

Their development had not direct connection (that we know of) to Project Super Nova and the solicitation for new next-generation designs.

Response:

I do apologize for misrepresenting your earlier posts, Seto Kaiba. You are right than none of the racers had any direct connection with Project: Super Nova. Other than the VF-9E Cutlass, all other Unlimited Class units were either had AVF standards already or were modified AVF class units.

However, via the Macross Compendium information on Macross R, the VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug was developed as a Project: Super Nova candidate. Though calling a EVA a VF seems to be stretching it, though it does show that there were other candidates solicited for the AVF competition other than the YF-19 & YF-21.

VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VBP-1/VA-110_Neo_Glaug

______________________________

AVF Update Candidate - SW-XA1 Schneeblume

GuardianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said:

I felt the VF Experimental craft are like todays proof of concept demonstrators, as a company makes the unit to pitch the idea to the military brass/budget to develop farther along.

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

Wrong kind of "Experiment"

Aircraft designated VF-X (or XVF) are literally in-universe experimental aircraft like we have in the real world. Offhand, I don't know why the Schneeblume isn't in the VF-E section... probably for what a good clean line art source. "VF-Experiment" is the name of the column in Character Model that the Schneeblume and Schneegans were from... it was the column that ran before VFERR.

Response:

I think we are mostly on the same page, Seto Kaiba, so I shall expand.
Yes I understand that the VF-X-## (or XVF-##) are Macross Continuum cannon experimental craft, and the YF-## are the prototypes that may/may-not be produced farther. This seems to be inline with (at least) US military standards.

Shoji Kawamori's other works are (to me) like the proof of concept crafts, in that (be it pre, or post, production) they are his visions for the VF we may see.

It is the Studio (like the military brass) that choose which get more attention, even if they were a unit initially denied in the past (the development of the VF-3000, VA-3 & VF-9 as examples), but if they are not accepted they never become part of the (cannon) records.

In the real world the US military asks for a lot of crafts to evaluate, as a studio looks for art to get a visual of a project, though either case can be denied while the work still remains done (in prototypes & concept art).

______________________________

AVF Update Candidate - VF-17 Nightmare & VF-19 Excalibur

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

Er... not sure why these are listed as "candidates" desgins... they were already AVFs when they were new, and at least the VF-19 is known to have been able to partly adopt VF-25 equipment.

Response:

As I stated in my prior post, under the Timeframe & Design Considerations, that I did not read Valkyrie Driver's idea on timeframe before my first posting on this Topic thread.

Part of my prior posting under this area was, "I posted part of my Mekton Z+/Macross game units & views in response to thinking that it was upgrade/update to 2059 specifications, and not to the original 2040 timeframe as outlined by Valkyrie Driver. My bad for not reading the Forums fully before posting."

Link to my first post on this thread back at #128: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=42189&page4#entry1184943

It had some errors (like identifying the Thunderbolt Interceptor as a VF-11B/X), and if you want to read & comment on that you can.

______________________________

I will admit, Seto Kaiba, other than the few points were I got duplicate information from you, I have learned a good amount from both you, stechley & the others here.

Thanks, Valkyrie Driver. Yeah, I noticed it did go way from the topic, that is why I though listing the units discussed might help. We will see what happens.

The following is going to be a lengthy Forums post for the purpose to response to several of the Members.

I will attempt to Format it in Chronological Oder of the Topic that the different Subjects of Interest have first appeared.

There could be some debate as to what constitutes as an AVF Upgrade, for (I might be wrong) Project: Super Nova requirements were;

1. Able to attain Orbital status without additional equipment
2. Ability to used the Fold-booster system
3. Utilize the fixed fighter-scale PPB system
4. Utilize the Active Stealth System

For my opinion (which may suck), if it can achieve the first requirement and at least one to the three others, it is of the AVF class.
With the same measure, that does not mean that the Upgraded units would be equal to the full performance of a new AVF (anything post Macross Plus/Macross 7)

AVF Upgrade Candidates - VF-0 Phoenix

Well, as Valkyrie Driver first posted, and Seto Kaiba replied to, of what a VF-0 with AVF level might be like.

I agree that style of the VF-0 design, and I felt the technical designers nailed it with the VF-0kai Zeak. They kept the primary look while giving the reasons of the units increase of speed, electronics & active stealth. I need to get the Macross R manga & learn Japanese, for I would love to know how (in the middle of space) they found wreckage of a VF-0A to start the process with.

Valkyrie Driver pointed out the reasons he felt that the design of the VF-0 would make a good candidate to Mr. March, mainly a proven combat design.

Andras added, "You could use the failure of the Vf-3000 to justify a space rated VF-0C/D as a fighter/bomber VF. The -3000 was bigger, as is the -0 series. The C/D delta wing allows more ordnance storage, and the dorsal hardpoints for extra micromissile pods."

AVF Upgrade Candidates - VF-1 Valkyrie

As Seto Kaiba posted out in his response to Valkyrie Diver, the VF-1++ had the performance of an AVF, though harder to control & possible slower than the VF-0kai (which was made/rebuilt after the VF-1++ was destroyed).

To me the equipment modifications to allow it made the unit FUBAR, though I still could see that it started as a VF-1.
jvmacross asked, "What about the VF-1X Plus?" Well, the VF-1++ already covered that, though I feel that was more a garage-modification set than a factory rebuild.

Nostalgia can be powerful force, though were does one draw the line. (meant as a bad joke about art)

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-9 Cutlass

Seto Kaiba commented on the VF-9E Cutlass from Marcoss R before Raptor One's comment that it would be their choice followed by the VF-4.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-4 Lightening III

While not getting an AVF Upgrade, Raptor One, there was a variant in Macross R designated the VF-4SL that competed in the Ostrich Class races.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - SDP-1 Stampede

JBO brought this unit up, of which I think its primary job was to shoot ships down. Then tey gave a reason for them (it seems) as highly mobile planetary defense units. Even though I do not see how it could be updated without a total redesign, I do feel that the VF-25S Armored Messiah is a homage to the ideas there of.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-11 Thunderbolt II

Mr. March looked and commented that the most likely candidate for the posting was the VF-11 due to the number of VF units produced (second only to the VF-1, I believe), which was seconded by Valkyrie Driver.

hulagu asked, "Does a normal combat styled version of the VF-11MAXL (...) count as a Thunderbolt upgrade?" Of which Valkyrie Driver commented, "Yeah, it would count, as long as it retains more of the typical VF-11 aesthetics (i.e. no boobs or mylene style head)."
Seto Kaiba had pointed out in cannon that, "It's said (in connection with the MAXL variant) that the VF-11 needed to have the airframe strengthened to take the additional thrust of new engines about 2/3 as powerful as what's on most AVFs, and being so darn small would make its armament rather lighter than what most AVFs carry. It wouldn't have nearly as much staying power or carrying capacity as your average AVF (and, IIRC, something about pinpoint barriers is said to screw with the VF-11's sensors on the Thunderbolt Interceptor)." On the Thunderbolt interceptor, I believe it is due to the power drain of controlling/using the PPB that shuts down long range sensors there of Considering, as Seto Kaiba pointed out, that a PPB uses more than half (60-70%) the power-output of two FF-2200 turbines in a VF-19A. It seems though that the VF-11 kai-units (the MAXL-kai & D-kai, which use lower out-put turbines) have full use of fighter-scale PBS without any adverse effects to other systems. I feel this maybe due to how the units had there PBS installed (M7's kai had the Three-Star factory ship while the Thunderbolt Interceptor was done in a hanger?).

Valkyrie Driver was discussing the fan-fiction he wished to write, and discussed with shetchley the view on the MAXL units. I know within the Mekton Z+/Macross game I ran, the Fleet's factory produced a refined VF-11Cs with the FF-2055 for cannon units, VF-11Ds for trainers & MAXLs in the place of the VF-1S role as CAG units.

AVF Update Candidate - Timeframe & Design Considerations

Valkyrie Driver said, "Basically, I'm wanting to see what VF's folks want to see reimagined as AVF entries, for the purpose of this exercise, we'll assume the Year is 2038, 2 years before the Project Supernova Trials, Which eliminates some of the later entries (Y/VF-19,YF-21/VF-22, VF-25, VF-29 are already past that spec, and the VF-17 doesn't qualify since it's a special operations mech)."

Which, in hindsight, I did not read before my first posting here, Valkyrie Driver, so my apologies.

If I am reading it right (though the Macross Compendium needs to intergrade the Macross R information better), the UN military did a call-out for AVF 'proof of concept' units in 2034, with the final candidates for Project: Super Nova decided upon in [2038-39]. As Steo Kaiba pointed out, some of the VF units within Macross R competing in the Unlimited Class races are a few of the 'losers' from the AVF selection.

In consideration of newer technologies like the ISC & EX Gear are discussed, as well as the possible weight savings (or lack there of) in cannon.

First brought up by Valkyrie Driver that there were no single, or triple, engine VR units. Mr. March responded with safety concerns with space travel & that redundancy of having more than one is part of that. Mommar then added, "Given they're all aerospace technically the engines should be in triplicate then." Which was counter by Mr. March, "I think going for triple engines may be - as JBO said - adding unnecessary complexity to that which is already over-engineered."

Then there was a Weapons discussion between multiple members. Another about the redundancy of Leg nacelle weapon-bays with Super-part missile pallets on top of. Then the discussion of how/why FAST-packs/Super-parts are used.

Then a discussion on the VF-shield & melee weapons going to the PBS and how effective the PPB is.

AVF Update Candidate - SW-XA1 Schneeblume

Seto Kaiba brought forth this unit from VF Experimental, which unofficially is based off the VF-1 with contemporary stealth design influences. I have seen the art and agree that it could have been a contender, (Hey, Seto Kaiba & Mr. March, why is not the SW-XA1 in the Macross Mecha Manual's VF Experiment section?) I felt the VF Experimental craft are like todays proof-of-concept demonstrators, as the company makes the unit to pitch the idea to military brass/budget to develop farther along.

AVF Update Candidate - VF-14 Vampire

Seto Kaiba recommendation was, "I'd think the logical choice would actually be the VF-14 Vampire. The airframe's stressed for about twice the engine power that the VF-11's was (...), and it's said to have a LOT of free space inside the airframe that can be used for upgraded or optional hardware." I can see the point to that, even if you need to reinforce the frame for turbines stronger than the VF-14 is rated for (like FF-2350B that the VF-22 use).

AVF Update Candidate - VF-3000 Crusader

Mr. March suggested the VF-3000 as a consideration as an AVF, due to that the newer technologies might be able to solve earlier design issues. I see no fault in that logic, though might be some engineering work to do so correctly.

Even though the VF-14 may have more space (via design), I brought up would not be true if one uses updated/upgraded (and believed smaller) systems for the VF-3000? (not noticing Mr. March's earlier entry) Sildani's comment on was, "The... Crusader have the limitation of old materials and an inflexible design. Short of completely rebuilding them with the all new materials, they're already at a disadvantage from weight and materials standpoint - and if you're going to go that far, you might as well go ahead and build new 24s, 25s, or even 27s for the same trouble."

AVF Update Candidate - New Designs

JBO commented, "Tangentally, I'd like to see a VF inspired by the F-104 Starfighter." Valkyrie Driver gave some reasons why it would not be practical, and I seconded him on that & with a single engine VF based on the F-35 transforming like the VF-22. My Comments started another discussion on the early development of Macross VF units. JBO countered with, "While the F-104 had problems as a fighter, many of them can be fixed in a variable fighter "because overtech". I mean, it worked for the VF-4. And I think you guys are underestimating the value of a VF with a high LCF." Valkyrie Driver gave reasons why a F-35 based unit would be better, & I gave better candidates in the 'family' of the F-104 as a response. Then, I found & posted from Shoji Kawamori's work on Air Cavalry Chronicles the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur". Valkyrie Driver commented, "That F-104 looking VF looks like it has two really small engines in the legs that make up the main fuselage. Which, admittedly, is a pretty cool idea for a single engine profile. Might have to think about that for low cost VF." I see it as the reverse of the F-5E/F-20, though if the two smaller turbines can out do one big, then it is all good.

Another consideration I put forth was what would be the look/upgrade of the VF-5 to AVF class and I expressed concerns the VA-3M Invader might already fill that spot, though do not know if it can (doubtful) go orbital.

AVF Update Candidate - VF-17 Nightmare & VF-19 Excalibur

Then, you are welcome, JBO.

________________________________

You have a point there, Mr. March, on your response to anime52k8. For I also have no clue on how the Pin-Point Barrier (PPB) works, though have allot of theories.

• In SDFM, with the introduction of Pin-point Barrier System (PBS), it seemed that ANY attack (physical or energy) was negated if it came in contact with a PPB 'ball'.
  I originally chalks that up due to the control/generating area of the system being that of the missing Fold Drive, and it was somehow 'teleported' into "Super-Dimensional Space."
• With the Dadalus Attack latter that same episode of SDFM threw the "Super-Dimensional Space" theory out, for the area touched by the PPB should have been 'teleported' away and not crashed/pushed into.
  My theory at this point is that it is a form of Electro-magnetic Field, that disrupts the flow of electrons & atomic bindings of molecules, which causes solid physical objects to weaken or 'dissolve' depending on the amount of mass there of.
  As a side-effect to the solid mass disruption, the plasmatic residue of said is held within the field distorting any energy based attacks to nothing.
  The fields carrying capacity of plasmatic residue/barrier is limited to the amount of energy it has, and any residue over the barrier's carrying capacity is allowed to dissipate.
  Also, the plasmatic residue with alter the light in the area (usually lightening the area)
  
• Then comes Macross Plus, and the lovely fight scene between Isamu (in the YF-19) & Guld (in the YF-21) which punches holes (almost literally) in my theory. The shield on the YF-21 does as my theory seems to say as Isamu shoots at Guld, though the punches seem to do no physical damage to either unit. Heck, the double punch the YF-19 did threw the YF-21 backwards a few city blocks.
  On this all I can figure is that the Electro-Magnetic field effect of the BBP is negated by the energy wave from the SWAG armor, and the added velocity of that impact was due to "like poles" in the field & armor cycling repelling each other at that point in time on top of the punch itself (dumb luck factor).
  With said, it could be surmised that either the same should happen if two PPBs impacted, or that they would totally negate, each other.
  
• Finally we have the scene in Macross Plus with Guld deflecting an energy based attack.
  Due the output of the energy weapon, the beam is only partly dissipated, the remainder of was deflected like a mirror (with the dissipated percentage being absorbed into the field's plasma to assist with. Red reflects red logic)

As I have not seen any full instalment of Macross 7 or Macross Frontier, I can not speculate on how it might have changed my feelings/theory of BPS & PPB.

Other than the why the effect of the BBP on the Vajra's natural energy converting armored hides, different wavelengths due to mechanical & biological systems is the simplest answer.

We are talking about Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircrafts, I feel sad that we do not seem to have the technologies to fully make one in reality (even if we had unlimited funds) with current materials.

The closest I feel we can get, with the postings here as evidence, would be a weak version of the YF-21/VF-22. And here is the short list why;

• Nuclear propulsion; even if we could get up to the thrust levels needed to fly (let alone go orbital) the unit would have to be centralized in non-moving/transforming area of the unit.
  

• Laser Weapons; yeah we have them, though at this point in time the units seem to large to fit into a head turret or arm.

  

• Structural Material; Carbon fiber mesh with titanium threads may help flesh out a frame of alloyed-steel, but it is no "space metal material frame" to handle all the stresses operating said unit would encounter, and that is not getting into the actuators to move the frame.

In reality, at the time of this posting, the only technologies that I feel can be readily and reliably built/reproduced are the regular aircraft/drones of the series & the possibility of Destriods (like the ADR-3 Mk III Cheyenne). Of which, I find funny because there is a wheeled mecha from Japan for around two million USD. Although, it looks like a cross from VOTOMS & Armored Core.

---------- Back to Topic ----------

VF Technologies with real world references (preferred prior to airing) that have been covered

• Engines; main thruster turbines and vernier movement motors - Check
• Laser Weapons; - Check
• Design Inspirations; there is never enough of that.
• Weapons systems; Missile racks - Check, Gun-pods... how the frackin' heck did we miss that!

Okay, I am not going to do as first thought. So, let us look at real Gun-pods!

In most cases (other than the F-4 Phantom II, that was designed without a gun) they are to help support the aircraft's mission or bring additional 'pain' to the engagement.

The first versions of 'gun-pods' were known as "blister packs" added to aircraft (like on the B-25 Mitchell, shown in 1st thumbnail) to enhance the aircrafts effectiveness in combat. To me, these seem to be a weak version of Super-parts for a VF, and cannot be ejected from the craft.

Then you have the conformal Gun-pods (on a Harrier jump-jet in the 2nd & 3rd thumbnails). Which are an improvement over the "blister pack" style & where apart of the design to try to speed up armament reloading (compared to internal gun systems), though to me still seem like super-parts that are not able to be jettison.

Finally you have the pylon supported Gun-pod (a F-4 Phantom II's SUU-23/A for the 4th, which was needed due to the feeling at the time that all air combat would be going to missile engagements only), which is staring to look like the Macross gun-pod units. though not new (both sides in World War II where experimenting/using pylon weapon packs). These are the fastest to change out, though due to the nature of the mounting are usually less accurate than the prior units (though that is without the Blessing of Overtechnology!). It matters the military and style of the pod (since some use the aircraft's power for the mechanics of the weapon), if they can be discarded after the munitions run out.

With the Active Stealth System, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus would have no need if the systems are operating correctly. Though if for some reason that said system would fail, the passive stealth might help the pilot stay alive, but they may have to jettison any added equipment to retain/maintain a stealth profile. For, let us face facts, if the VF-171EX Super Nightmare Plus lost Active Stealth, the non-conformal Super-parts would increase the radar signature effectively showing were the unit is.

It has been found out that even with conformal/stealth-designed add-on, the F-35 radar cross-section increases, though that is without the benefit of Macross' Overtechnoloy.

That is, of course, understandable if one looks at the situation with the understanding of passive stealth intricacies

________________________________

Oh, JBO, I found some rough line-art that was not official to the Macross Continuum, though was drafted by Shoji Kawamori (that did the majority of the mech-design for Macross) for Air Cavalry Chronicles, I thought the fighter-mode there of you might like. though it would need polish. I will repost them here;

The fighter-mode looks dissimilar to that of the F-104 Starfighter's airframe that you wanted to see in a VF. So, I how you like what I found.

I really wish I knew either how to get Quotes to work for me, or why it (and other reply options) does not seem to work with my system.

________________________________

Okay, Seto Kaiba, you answered what I already know. I know that the VF-171 uses the same active stealth that the VF-19 uses (which should make the next question mute)..

What I was asking was did the design changes from the VF-17 Nightmare to make the VF-171 Nightmare Plus negate the passive stealth that was in the original design?

Or another way, Did the redesign of that made the VF-171 possible, (officially in the series) destroy the passive stealth nature that was in the airframe?

________________________________

Well, Seto Kaiba, I will have to agree that the main VF-0 Phoenix design (including the mix-build of the VF-0kai Zeak) has the space for neither the ISC, nor IVCS.

That was why I thought that placing the unit for said in the pod on the back would be best (that is an actual part of the craft & is not a FAST-pack, at least by the read I did off the site)

On an original VF-0B frame, again I would fully agree with you, Seto Kaiba, that it would not be able to handle the FF-3001A turbines (they were originally designed for two FF-2001) though my inspiration was the VF-0A Phoenix "Angel" with this addition as a permanent feature to the new craft.

The first thing I stated was, "start like the VF-0kai; with a frame rebuild with lighter/stronger materials..." though I can see your view-point that it seems the Pod area were the third turbine (with the ISC & PPBS units) would be placed might not have enough structure to support its use.
That was why (In parentheses) I suggested the FF-3003J/FC1 for the third engine, it has lower thrust rating (1,470 KN) than the FF-3001A (which has 1,620 KN)

Yes, Seto Kaiba, the Zeak did get an upgrade from a Mauler Laser cannon (assumed to be the ROV-20 of the VF-1) to a Mauler ROV-217C.

Though, with the VAL-0B's head turret, I was thinking something bigger, or a Variable Lens (sweeping &/or "shotgun" ability) set-up for the unit.

I am honestly surprised that no one seemed to notice/care that I called for the replacement of the (assumed) Mauler Laser Cannons in the arm units to be replaced by a variable quantum beam gun per arm. So, that would be two beam cannons; though (I would have) the total damage output would only be (at maximum variants, with both firing simultaneously) at 10% more than the Howard/L.A.I. HPB-01A Heavy Quantum Beam Gun-pod maximum output (which would not happen often, due to strain on the turbines).

Another is that it is to be a two-seater so the second operator can possible fly/operate drones.

________________________________

I have not had the ability to access for viewing Macross Frontier (Have heard reviews that it is a bomb on story, though I am interested in it for Mecha designs), and can the HPB-01A fire at a lower setting or is it always the 'destroy everything' blast setting?

Even though Macross R was suppose to be about racing, I can imagine a reason for L.A.I. help make the VF-0kai Zeak, both for product development & testing. If there was a way to expand it to include the ISC/IVCS & possible EX-gear, many colony worlds would 'love' return of the classic style of the original Valkyrie, with the performance comparable to the newest fighters and (hopefully cheaper/easier to make) very competitively priced.

That be the short of it, Valkyrie Driver.

Though, to make it more manageable for the newer pilots, the statistic (from Macross Mecha Manual) of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus are weaker than the VF-17 Nightmare The VF-17 had everything which were required of an AVF craft, though it had passive stealth instead of Active Stealth System and was made 2 years after the start of the AVF trails.

Thank you, Seto Kaiba, I am getting use to any error correction being caught by you.

I can not find reference on this so you might know; even though it does not need it with Active Stealth System, does the VF-171 retain the passive stealth of the original Nightmare units?

Though, I did not know that there was another Variable Fighter Experimental publication with Macross Zero, only the site that I had linked beneath my composite were I found the original pictures/scans.

I did not find any references of said publications on the site's pages linking up to (though I was using Google Translate &/or WorldLingo for translations), so it may have been a simple error.

On the subject of a AVF (or greater level) upgrade candidate, Seto Kaiba, do you think that a VF all energy weapons platform as I laid out would be plausible route of development?

---------- Continuing with Topic ---------

http://www.vf-research.com/introduce/VF-0/VAL-0B/VAL-0B.htm

Even though the above unit did not get any screen time in Macross ZERO*, it does show-off the subject of energy/laser weapons.

Considering almost all VF craft seem to have at least one laser (usually on the head turret).

With the VAL-0B, it seems that the engineers wanted to put a Zentradi ship's laser turret as the head of a VF-0.

The first picture in thumbnails is of the Boeing NKC-135A that was used as laboratory/test-bed for the first official trails of Variable Airborne Laser systems from 1975 to 1984. Testing had it successful intercept air-to-air missiles (like the AIM-9 Sidewinder) and drone aircraft. After its retirement in 1984, the unit was given to the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio. It is currently in storage there due to the museum needing room for a C-5 Galaxy. According to Wikipedia, the museum is attempting to find it another institution for the unit to be displayed at, otherwise it is planned to be scrapped.

The second picture is of a Boeing YAL-1, which laser was being more specifically attuned to take out ballistic missiles during their boost stage. The program operated from 2001 to 2012, with the unit (a modified Boeing 747-200 that was retired from service with Air India) being designated the YAL-1 by the US Department of Defense in 2004. After loss congressional funding during the 2011 session & final flight on Feb 14, 2012; the unit was placed into storage, then scrapped in 2014.

The final post in thumbnails is of the Russian A-60 (based off the Ilyushin II-76). The Soviet Air Force Started the project in 1977, with the first units flight on 19 August 1981, and then flew a second unit that was modified to test a reported stronger laser system on 29 August 1991. The program was suspended & equipment mothballed with the fall of the Soviet Union, though reports of the Russian Air Force have reactivated the program as of May 2009 & maybe continuing at the time of this posting.

EDIT; * = Have been informed that the VAL-0B was not apart of the official designs for Macross ZERO; though appeared in a side-book called Macross ZERO VFERR (Variable Fighter Experimental Requirements Review)

I might be wrong (and I know I will be correct on any error), when UN Spacey became NUNS (New Unity Nations Spacey) the needed a cheap/new frontline fighter.

The VF-171 Nightmare Plus was based off the VF-17 Nightmare, following links good for more information for you, Valkyrie Driver, though most of the answers to your questions are 'yes';

• http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-171.htm Macross Mecha Manual's entry on the VF-171
• http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-171_Nightmare_Plus The Macross Compendium's posting of

---------- Continuing With Topic ----------

http://www.vf-research.com/introduce/VF-0/VAL-0B/VAL-0B.htm

Since everyone has been focused on a Melee optional upgrade for AVF consideration, I thought the opposite and brought out a unit for consideration that got no screen time in Marcoss ZERO, the VAL-0B!

With the modification/rebuilding that became the VF-0kai (Macross R) by L.A.I. for the Vanquish Races, why not place that technical know-how into a dedicated weapons platform. My dream modifications would be;

1. start like the VF-0kai; with a frame rebuild with lighter/stronger materials, powered by two FF-3001A (or two FF-3001/FC1) turbines & adding active-stealth.
2. upgrade all of the energy/laser weapons (High-Output upgrade to the head laser, change the arm units to variable quantum beam guns) & convert the power unit on the back to another FF-3001A (or a FF-3003J/FC1) turbine.
3. install an ISC (or an IVCS, at least) along with a PPBS (that can cover any SWAG Energy Conversion Armor); with the third turbine (especially the higher out-put units in parentheses), there should be more than enough power in all modes
4. EX-Gear control for the Pilot & RIO, allow RIO to control one/multiple Ghost drone-fighter(s)

--- reading my list ---

Is it just me, or did I (in a round-about way) just purpose an upgrade/new-model off the YF-25 Prophecy (which has many of these features with the Paladin Super-parts/FAST-packs) like the development of the YF-29 Durandal from the VF-25 Messiah?

Even though both the X-9 Ghost & AIV-7S (QF-4000 under SMS control) may not be a VF, although the A.I. processors have real-life versions in development

One path of A.I. processing/programing is not unlike that of the Terminator series that has no biological components, & is the path I feel L.A.I. is taking with the "Judas System" in the AIV-7S.

(I know they say they are modeling it off of the X-9 Ghost's data, though does it mean that they are INCLUDING the unstable Bio-component?)

That is to simulate brain learning in sub-program/self-writing protocols over a directives base to expand responses.

(reports have the NSA's latest meta-data collection program having this feature encoded, to help stream-line, speed-up its own processes)

The other is the neurological processing chip (bio-neural microchip in Marcoss Plus) in that it had installed is real tech that is being developed.

In the series, it is stated that the bio-neural microchips as a core processor for an A.I. system have a 'unstable & dangerous self-preservation nature.'

If one thinks of ethics of life & apply that to the chip-set's POV; a person turns off the power, it is now devoid of any sensory information and deprived of food that could 'kill' it, so it would want to preserve its 'life' at whatever cost.

One must remember, any A.I. is limited by both its restrictive programing (like the three laws of robotics, also known as Robo-Ethics) and the experiences it has had access-to/learned/self-observed.

--- this is My Opinion of Bio-chip hack in the "Sharon Apple Incident" ---

The issue of performance & control of the autonomous A.I. (with only its combat programing) within the X-9 I feel the UNS engineers had it under control; after several fights and maneuvering operations without any indication of difficulty or flaws.

That is until the bio-neural A.I. DECU6000 (aka Sharon Apple), which only had the data/brain algorithms from Myung Fang Lone's to influence its choices made the decision to 'hack'/convince the Ghost's A.I. to do as it needed.

The A.I. system within the X-9 had nothing to counter the DECU6000 code-line with, so it would have no reason not to 'agree' with the requests.

Other than the 'agreement' and whatever code modification Sharon Apple did to the Ghost (removing any targeting limiters for starters); the X-9 performed all of its designed/programmed mission capabilities without any sign instability of situational judgment & nearly flawlessly execution there of in the dogfight with the YF-21, only to fail in recognition/avoidance of the 'kamikaze' attack run by Guld.

The DECU6000's knowledge-base may have also included the information from MK-Ultra project (look it up, & it is not Mortal Kombat!) to help entrance the population of New Macross City and have the UNS guards attack Myung within the SDF-1.

---------------------------------------------

If Sharon Apple's emotional/judgment data was from Myung Lone; were did the UNS engineers get said data for the Ghost?

Considering that the YF-21/VF-22 & the AIV-7S are products of General Galaxy (in the assumption that they helped make the X-9); the logical conclusion would be that it was derived from Guid's BDS operational recordings during the AVF "Super Nova" trials in the YF-21.

I understand what Mr. March is saying, that is why (It seems I started this whole VF melee weapon thing) with the Idea of the extending baton/rod (slide pieces could be point elliptical to be blade like on extension) made with the energy-converting material that is in the armor & reinforced with the PPB for a light-weight large damage-arc melee weapon.

If a said unit with would be facing another VF with PPB, it might as well leave it sheathed; for the other units PPB would cancel most of the advantage, as well as the disadvantage of the loss ordinance/systems that were removed/left-out for space/weight of the melee weapon.

While going against transient Zentradi operations, renegade units with older style VFs or even possible the Vajra; then the advantage might be there, though needs to be balanced with the requirements of the mission.

Seeing you comrade blown away via gunpod is one thing, seeing their unit hacked up into nonfunctioning pile of scrap while they are in it causes great psychological effects (for good or ill; see the fear on the NUNS pilots as the Small Vajra units get within striking distance with that tail).

Now, with the future speculation said, let us look at mecha-scaled melee weapons over the course of the Macross Continuum (there may be errors/omissions);

1. During Macross ZERO, Shin's gun-pod jammed and he discarded/threw it towards Nova's SV-51 (improvised thrown melee weapon)
2. In the original series of SDFM, the Spartan can have a mace, though I do not ever recall seeing it in the animation
3. Again in SDFM, Max uses his gun-pod as improvised baton/rod to restrain Britai and then take him outside the ship.
4. Another scene in SDFM, Britai using a pipe as an improvised melee weapon on the head turret of Ichijo's VF-1J
5. Then in Macross Plus, we see a VF-11B Super Thunderbolt, piloted by Isamu, that is gun-pod with a flip-blade bayonet option
6. Later in Macross Plus has Isamu using his GU-15 gun-pod as a club on the VF-22 after it 'jams'
7. During the battle with the SDF-1 in Macross Plus, Isamu uses the shield enhanced with the PPBS to pull a Valkyrie version of the Daedalus attack
8. Macross R: The Ride has us see the YF-25 Prophecy with the Super Paladin Parts, including the BL/VF-X1 Blaze Lance & the ability to place the PPBS anywhere there is energy converting armor (first pic of thumbnails).
9. In Macross Frontier we see that the VF-25 & YF-29 has the Assault Knife, though it is not made clear if that is continued with the YF-30
10. The VF-27 Lucifer of Macross Frontier has a retractable blade housed within its shield
11. As part of the repaints of the YF-29 Durandal, the Isamu Kai has both the Assault Knife and an retractable bayonet on the underside of the Heavy Quantum Beam Gun-pod (second picture of thumbnails).

------- Back to Topic Subject------------

Even though not of Macross, Shoji Kawamori did a series of mecha designs called Air Cavalry Chronicles (which was a pitch for the Mecha design for the development of Escaflowne, that was rejected though later inspired Macross VF units) has a design that I think JBO (for a F-104 style) & anime52k8 might like; the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur" (course line-art of Battriod & Fighter modes in thumbnails)

Pulsing thrusters to simulate lower thrust output is tricky in a gravitational environment, Seto Kaiba, though not impossible.

Attempting to transition from vertical trust to horizontal flight, and then back to purely vertical thrust has always had issues.
The biggest in this case would be fuel and burn-rates of the vernier thruster motors.

This might be the scenario, if a VF-X had all the verniers of the VF-1 and the pilot was attempting to do a vertical take-off, horizontal flight & vertical landing.

This is loosely based off of a test flight of the X-35 before it was announced as the JSF trial 'winner' & broadcast via PBS Nova program, and logical conjecture of technologies as they stand.

The pilot starts the reactors, then places the wings out to full extension and the two-dimensional thrusters upwards at their highest angle of deflection.

With all preparations set; the pilot activates all of the ventral vernier motors which causes the craft to rises quickly to the maximum sustainable height of roughly 10 meters, before raising the landing gear & engaging the FF-2001 turbine into overboost.

The craft then surges forwards as it starts to loose some altitude before reaching take-off speed, the wings start to generate lift for the craft at which point the pilot disengages the verniers and continues the flight plan.

During the flight, the craft proceeds to go supersonic before returning to the airfield for landing.

Upon approach, the pilot checks the fuel that the verniers have left, & decides against doing any hovering maneuvers on this flight.

Coming in with a high angel of attack with landing gear down, the plane slows towards stall-speed and is flying as low as it dipped to during take off.

All of the ventral verniers fire again just before stall-speed is hit, keeping the VF-X in the air and gaining some altitude.
With the main turbines throttled down, the forward high speed thrusters fired for a short pulse to arrest all lateral momentum. then the pilot starts to pulse-cycle the verniers to lower the VF-X to the ground.

A misfire on two of the motors happen on the final pulse before touch down, due to running out of propellant, though the craft landed safely.

With this explanation; I feel that VFs are VTOL capable in fighter-mode, though it is not something that they should engage in because of safety concerns.

I forgot this for my earlier post & I know in Macross that the thermonuclear reactors/turbines are suppose to work in space, though the real life units still needed air to compress & heat for it to expand and be used as thrust.
Hence with the tech, while being within an atmosphere, the engines run as long as you have nuclear fuel, which was the whole dream of the Nuclear-powered Atomic-Bomber

So, if the VF are working in space, and are using an inert gas injected into the turbines for thrust, would that not have them be then technically rockets?

Also in the series (as the VF-1 squad is preparing for military salute for the Jenius Wedding), if I am remembering correctly that it seemed to show indicate thrust coming out of the Intakes to slow/stop them (may have been 'bad' animation & was suppose to be out the high pressure verniers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, now back to the topic for both this tread & conversation; the vernier-thrusters & RCS (Reaction Control System).

For without them, while in space, we would be boldly going forwards because we can not find reverse!

The first picture is via the Macross Mecha Manual, showing the High/low pressure verniers of a VF-1A.

(if the color animation does not work, here it is off the site; http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/animated-vf-1a-fighter.gif)

The second is a vernier motor/thruster used by the Mercury-Atlas project during the 1960s

Finally the up-close view of the RCS in the nose of a OV-101 (Space shuttle)

On their use; they are fired for a set amount of time to start the movement, then another set is used to stop said momentum.

A high thrust pressure can be used for a short period of time, or a low pressure can be used for longer time-set, and both will gander the same result.

Vernier thrusters in real life (& assumed to be true in Macross, due movie referencing), unlike main propulsion systems (like the VF Turbines) do not have a throttle control; it is either they are on or off.

Two other movies that shown vernier controls are Space Cowboys & The Black Hole, though there are more.

The point of verniers used for a VFs VTOL maneuver in fighter-mode is that they might get you up & hold you there (until they run out of fuel, remember they are rockets) at said height; because they can not throttle down to reverse/land the VF in said mode (though can hold you there to transform to GERWALK mode) or throttle up to gain altitude (GERWALK mode with legs down for vertical thrust is needed for that).

Overtechnology might helped improve systems performance, but it does not change how it works.

I do recall that of the F-5E & F-20, Valkyrie Driver.

Though my father (Rest his soul & he was US Army Air Corp in the 1960's), was insistent that Northrop's data from those planes were used by McD-D for the YF-17/F-18.
Personally, I seen it like the similarities of the F-15 & the Mig-25/31.

On the shield, since Bandai was taking over more of the toy/model line for Macross, I thought they were trying to influence it along GUNDAM inspirations (and chalked it up as such, with the feet redesign).

The VF scaled survival knife seems like FMP!, though I also see it as a reference to an EVA unit (01 to be precise) as well.

I do know (due to the glow in the blade in several scenes) that the PPB can reinforce the Blade (by extension of the VF), which makes it more like the blades of Neo Genesis Evangelion.

On the extension of power made me now think of the heavy quantum beam gun/cannon that the VF-27/YF-27/YF-30 are given.

I am assuming that it has its own power-source, though can it link to the unit's reactor to fire a larger burst as well? (comparing the Beam gun to the Macross Gunships that are used by the capital-ship/mecha)

On the idea that the PPB was being used to reinforce the blade, I had an idea for a Macross RPG session (that never happened) and would use tech already available.

I was thinking how easy would it be to do so with an extending baton/rod for a VF (like some police/security use) and make a Macross version of a beam/light saber, then have some VF-19 units try it out in the field.

Only downsides were that the VF-19 would have only one (not two) clips of spare ammo behind the shield, other problem was were does one stow the Gunpod if it is not being used.

Has been tested/done with different nuclear devices, though the Macross Continuum's duel-annihilation fusion-reaction (I think I got that right) of reactive weapons & systems I believe is suppose to be a lot 'cleaner' (e.i no left-over radiation).

I will have to agree you, Valkyrie Driver, on the missile racks. It's all ANIME* at times.

(* = ANIME; Any Noticeable Inconsistency May Exist; as in artistic/creative license)

----- Back to the Topic --------------

Since I started on the reaction-style power, let us visit the real life nuclear Jet turbines!

First the only two picture I could fined of ANY of the Macross thermonuclear turbines, the FF-2001 of the VF-1 Valkyrie

(is not the add girl so Kawaii!)

The idea of a nuclear powered aircraft is not new, though the hazards were.

The USAF wanted it 'safe' (for the crew at least) to operate, so they used a B-36 Peacekeeper (designated NB-36 due to it had a 3 megawatt air-cool nuclear reactor in its bomb-bay) to study of the best radiation shielding, though it was not (supposedly) to have powered anything in the craft (other than maybe its own monitoring equipment).

Meanwhile the turbines were being tested (yes, that big thing on rails was the rig for the tests), though significant thrust was (supposedly) never achieved.

The USSR did get a Nuclear powered aircraft in the sky, though it was in/as turbo-prop engines (which still are turbines) on a Tu-95 Bear bomber, and the tests were less than clean (supposedly the USAF atmospheric monitoring thought that were testing low-yield nukes every time it flew).

Also, of the 31 crew members apart of the Soviet project, all suffered from radiation sickness and all except 3 have passed on due to complications there of.

Even though a dud in the way people had tried t do so, some are still trying to make nuclear jet engines, though these are the first turbines I can find.

I am not going to argue, Seto Kaiba, though you might want to read the 'Design Features' portion of the entry for the YF-24 Evolution on the Macross Compendium.

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/YF-24_Evolution

Though I have no access to the Macross Chronicle publication, I have seen the toy/model referring to the stand-alone as the QF-2200D-A.

Though it was only as the QF-2200D as the 'Angel' parts with the VF-0S. Due to time of manufacture of the kits?

---------------- Back to Topic ------------

Though it might have been a cheaper (supposed non-transforming, as of V-Max; Vol. 2,Issue 6) & specialized VF, I wonder what one could do with the concept of the VF-5.

Considering the design was to had the mission inspiration of the F-5E Tiger II, with the performance specifications of the YF-2Y Sea Dart. http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-5

Though some might see that mission profile filled by the VA-3M, with its abilities.

I was going with what the name was at the Macross Mecha Manual site on designation, Seto Kaiba, though you got me wondering.

With the NEC/L.A.I. building the special computer/processor for the AIV-7 units of the Frontier Fleet , could not all of them in theory be able to act independent if given the code release?
(I have not seen the series, & can find no reference that the ones Luca Angeloni are the only units with said)

The ISC, Valkyrie Driver, was first (according to the Macross Continuum/Compendium) used during the Protoculture era in large craft (like the SDF-1 & Command ships) and smaller ones were used in the Q-Rau Battle-armor.

There was a reduced power unit that was tried in the YF-21, though due to cost & control issues was not included in the VF-22.

The YF-24 Evolution had a perfected miniaturized version that was latter used in the VF-25, VF-27 & later series units.

----- Returning to the Topic's Subject -----

I have read and thought allot since my first post and how I would update a fleets VF units with more modern tech as part of an AVF, though in Macross Frontier, the AVF trials were almost 20 years ago.

Understood, Mr. March, though I had a remembrance from a game convention of a dissimilar argument with the same scene From the Marcoss movie.

A GM/Referee of an open Robotech RPG session was stating that a Veritech in fighter-mode can not ground transform, and the (assumed) new player was trying to argue that it was possible (using said clip as point), The GM's final response was, "That is not Robotech."

With me working in a book bindery that prints for Palladium Books (which has the license from Harmony Gold for said product), I have taken a copy out of our scrap bin and read it (they allow all the Oops of the outsourced animation that was aired in the series as cannon in the game). That set of rules do state clearly what the GM said, though he also forgot the first rule of any RPG, which is to have fun.

Remembering that and how this debate was going made me feel stupid (& laughing at myself) especially, as you stated, Studio Nue has not told us everything (I am not a 100% sure they know themselves!).

On the blue VF-11MAXL, it is an earlier version of Grebo-Guru's VF-11MAXL that he does have up on DeviantArt (Yes, his account is still active though I do not know if he uses it anymore). I had found it on a PBEM Macross RPG site call Macross: New Horizons, and his comments were, "They used it for themselves without my knowledge, but I don't mind one bit. It's not like I own Macross."

He also liked my fan-art VF-19s that I have there as HaiiroMamoru.

Thanks, Valkyrie Driver. With the Internet, getting pictures is easy, though finding the one you want might be harder.

----- Now back to the Thread's Topic ------------------------

After the XB-70 post, I was thinking if there was any more multiple Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircraft in one unit, and the answer seems to be yes.

The General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark was the USAF/USN TFX (Tactical Fighter eXperimental) that had a lot of new tech at that time, though was too heavy/large to make an undercarriage that could handle Carrier landings.

Many of its body-lines seem more inline with the VF-1 than the gleaned from the F-14 Tomcat (which was the USN solution to the Carrier issue), though that is my opinion.

The pivoting hard-point pylons also were a feature of the F-111 that was not apart of the F-14 design.

The last feature of the Aardvark that the Tomcat does not have, an escape-pod cockpit (though that came latter in the Macross Continuum).

I see your point, sketchley, & even though I may have not described/represented it in the best way, I can see that we are on the same subject of the vents.

I see you position with the pictures, Mr. March, and the veniers there are providing lift. though I do not see how it can reverse/land with those thrust-ports (the Landing part of VTOL) without potentially damaging the craft. I also can not see those same veniers used in place of the main engine (that are repositioned beneath the unit in GERWALK-mode) to allow the 'hovering' that many VTOL craft (like the A/V-8 & F-35) can do. That is why I have repeatedly said that most VF unit, as a whole, is capable of VTOL maneuvers, though are incapable of doing so in fighter-mode.

In space/low-gravity (like sketchley commented may be lower aboard the Zentradi ship) using said veniers to get distance from the surface before engaging the main engines make sense, or as Ichijo did to transform into GREWALK mode.

And, yes, Mr. March, some gamers are rather disagreeable in the same regard as a rabid otaku of an anime series.

(A pin I got at a convention; "Half of all Gamers argue about the Rules. Half of all Gamers never read the Rules. Most times, it's the same Half.")

---------- Now back to forwarding this Forum's Topic ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though old, I think this one aircraft needs to be brought up. For it (in my opinion) may have influenced the Macross franchise at least three times.

And that plane is the North American XB-70 Valkyrie, which just the name is synonymous to any VF program/project.

Then, the VF units of VF-0C/D & VF-11 MAXL (Regular & Kai) look more like the XB-70 than they do their series sibling as the YF-30 also continues the detla-wing and canard combination.

Finally the feature that made the original Valkyrie a Genius Book Record holder for the Largest moving wing surface is stylized in the YF-21/VF-22 High speed configuration.

All to me is obvious, though I also felt it was needed to be said, for the past should be remembered for good or ill.

You are right, Seto Kaiba, I mislabeled the system for the ISC, though it seems you did understand what I was trying to reference.

On the drones in Macross Plus & Frontier, you are right that the full-autonomous drones are very limited (due to the "bad Apple" incident).

Even though I included the X-9 & the AIV-9 in my drone statement, like the effectiveness of the QF-2001 in Macross ZERO (equal to the other-sides cannon fodder in skill, though not in tactics), semi-autonomous drones can be just as dangerous in a fight as a full functioning one in the loss of life.

It is in DARPA reports and planning from a few years ago that they would like to make patrolling drones that if a target/person either fit a profile for a "hostile," or do not match that for a "friendly," that the target is eliminated and then the report is filed. With DoDAMM's aEgis system doing that as a fixed point 'defense', in theory how hard would it be to mobilize said system for active area denial/purging? The SWORD project is already doing that, though through human controlled operations, not (officially yet) with autonomous algorithms.

(There were unconfirmed reports of the SWORD units 'glitching' & suddenly targeting nearby "friendlies," the RoboCop scene with the ED-209 seems to ring a bell then)

Think of 'Project Insight' from the Captain America; The Winter Solider on how the algorithm help target the drone guns of the hela-carriers on people and all it needed was a push of a button. Final call was a human, though the machine/system/drone did all the harder work without question or conscious.

And, I agree with you, Valkyrie Driver, that no one will not be able to full eliminate pilots in all situations.

I can not easily see the X-32 as a VF. Maybe rearranging the intakes to help facilitate the transformations might help with my view though I considered it aesthetically "ugly" before, though its performance was better than that of the XF-35. For military hardware & strait craft/vehicles, capacities to me out way the looks.

I remember your opinion of the F-106 Delta Dart, and I know there are foreign craft that look like it though are high wing configured. With the high-wing, and using a VF-22 style transformation, I could see the Dart-style entry for a single engine VF