GuardianGrey

I do apologize for the typo of your name, Mr. March, though I still disagree with you on the VF Fighter-mode capable of VTOL thing.

Even though it does seem silly, Valkyrie Driver, that is what I see in the sequence out of the Macross movie that we ended up debating over.

My view is that the (pure) fighter-form of majority of VF units are not VTOL capable, though the veniers were used to do just as you stated; transforming to GERWALK.

And sketchley is right that gravity does play a part into what a VF can and can not do. mostly on the decks. Though I have not seen Macross 7 (other than clips off YouTube), the VT-1 scene is what the debate point is centered around. Due to the Zentrai walking, the Ostrich staying on the floor until the veniers are fired & even Roy's bleeding seem to indicate that there is Gravity (at least 0.6 Earth) within the ship by the simplest observations. Of course, it could all just be ANIME*.

The games were Palladium Books' Robotech RPG, GURPS Mecha & RTG Mekton+ that this debate had been wrestled over that I know of, sketchley.

Ichijo did transform the VT-1 Ostrich from fighter to GERWALK in the Zentradi Ship using the veniers. since he was not flying to facilitate said actions. This use of the veniers I feel that does not constitute as VTOL, although it did allow the transformation in that situation.

The VF units, as a whole can do VTOL maneuvers (majority are done in GERWALK-mode), though true VTOL cannot be done while in fighter-mode. That is my opinion of VF units in most situations.

I have also yet to see a VF unit LAND vertically in fighter-mode, which is something I have not seen animation of even the VF units believed capable of said maneuver.

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Now I know this is an after Macross came out for referencing, though kinda still ties in with the whole VTOL thing...

The YF-21/VF-22 has no thrusters (only veniers) in its legs, so my question was how does it fly/hover in GERWALK?

The line-art answers that it has ducts that vent from the engines downward behind the legs,

We do have a real world variant of that in the YX-32 VTOL configuration, when it opens the side ports and deploys the vents for thrust.

I also looked at the F-203 Dragon II line-art from the original series and see that it also has these vents, though the descripted texts have them be separate engine units.

So, do these vents make the F-203 a VF**?

(* = ANIME; Any Noticeable Inconsistencies May Exist)

(** = VF; as in VTOL Fighter, meant as a 'bad' joke due to the debate; although there are supposedly non-transforming VF units)

I think I came off that wrong then, Mr. Mach & David Hingtgen, so I will clarify on this.

It's also a Rules lawyering issue I have had in many general Mecha settings, that the VTOL only needs to be taken if the Fighter mode can do it.

An overall, VF in most cases can perform VTOL maneuvers as a whole unit (mostly in GERWALK), although the fighter-mode can not.

For to be true VTOL (Vertical Take-Off & Landing) I feel the craft (in this case, a VF in Fighter-mode alone) has to be able to vertically ascend and transition into horizontal flight and land vertically without issue.

As Mr. Mach pointed out we do see the VT-1 in the movie use its veniers to get enough altitude (could class as a vertical take-off) to deploy the legs and main thrusters. The moment the legs came down, it was no longer in Fighter-mode but GREWALK. Also, the Ostrich can not land vertically in fighter-mode.
Well, it could, though it is usually classed as a stall & crash. I also do not think the landing gear could handle the unit being dropped onto them from GERWALK leg height, even if the veniers were firing to attempt in slowing it down.

So it seems as design of the VF units, only the SV-51, YF-29 and with its Armor-Parts attached the VF-25 can do this feat, while others would (likely & literally) crash & burn.

You are right, Valkyrie Diver, most dogfight are sub-sonic. though few actually engage in anymore.

Most today are high-speed interceptions with a missile lock/launch before either party sees the other.

With the coming of the semi-stealth fighters like the F-22, F-35, Pak Fa/T-50 & like fifth gen fighters; the radar for missile guidance is getting to the point were dogfighting might become a required skill again, if they do not drone pilots out of jobs.

The Macross X-9/QF-4000 (AIF-7S)/AIF-9V(V-9) allowed to act independently is a fictional example,
The panicle of AVF capable attack maneuvers and weapons delivery, with no conscious on why it just did what it was ordered to.

That is why the Inertia Canceling System is needed in the Marcoss-verse, so humans play 'nice' with each other.

F-14 base of the VF-0/VF-1, like most of the other fighter-mode forms can not take-off/hover.
(usual response from trolls is, "it says it is VTOL in the description, so it must be capable")

The Yak-38 (Diagram shown), Yak-141 & F-35; while vectoring down the thrust from the main engines, then use a forward fan/turbine to help lift the respected craft.

If one looks at the SV-52, I believe it can do so as well;

1. The thrust vectoring exhaust from the feet/aft of the craft. can roughly be pointed downwards.
2. The dark purple highlighted area on the ventricle side and back of the Unit sees to be the vent-protection for the discharge of the lift fan/turbines (on back as verniers for the SV-51 in battroid mode).
   
   (using Mr. Mach's Macross Mecha Manual entry "Color-Code Transformation SV-52")

Which if those fans are used like the aforementioned real world fighter-craft, that would have made the SV-51 the first 'true' VTOL VF unit.

Followed by the YF-29 for prior mentioned reasons; and excluding the VF-25 because the Armor Parts there of are not permeate part of the craft, though make it an Honorable Mention.

On the LCF, JBO, you are making points, though I will make a few;

• The YF-12 (unofficially known as the 'Black Beast," which was a based off the recon SR-71 & the A-12 was the CIA call sign of the single seat version there of; all to help spread misinformation about) was a mess on its mechanics
• Due to the low profile of the airframe, the turbines needed an external staring mechanism (consisting of two Buick V-8 racing engines in tandem).while on the ground & can not reignite while in flight (a report of an SR-71 flying cross county; started in Maryland, was flying over the Rocky Mtn. 90 minutes later & flamed out on a turbine and was ordered back & it took them 6 hours to do so on one engine),
• With the retirement from service, we will never know the A-12/SR-71 true top speed (the original calculated maximum past after the second speed record for a manned jet aircraft) due to the last one was reported as only being 75% power. Some engineers that have used newer computer models of the materials and engine output data ran simulations & believe that the Blackbird could handle hypersonic (Mach 5+) speeds.
• The VF-4 and both versions of the VF-14 Vampire (Macross M3 & Macross 7-PLUS are the cannon VF-14; I like the 7-PLUS version myself) seems to be influenced by the A-12/SR-71, so I see your point for LCF.
• Like the F-104 Starfighter, the Blackbeast was to be a high-speed interceptor (as in, not designed to dogfight, but to hit-&-run).
  The original though for this was because of the Mig-25, which USAF Intel misidentified as an aerial superiority fighter (it was a high-speed interceptor itself, that was also used for recon), & having one clocked at Mach 3+ (an recon configuration that was fleeing anti-air defenses in Israel & melted its turbines down in the process) made the "need" seem apparent.
  The idea for converting the A-12/SR-71 airframe from recon to missile carrier was later abandoned as to costly, and the YF-15 had already started as a cheaper(?) solution.
• The A-12/SR-71 are rumored to actually fly so high that they start to loose power & flight control (atmosphere was getting too thin)

In the Macross Continuum, the SF-3 Lancer II & the Zentradi Gnerl Fighter Pod seem to fit the interceptor role well.(in theory at least, series reality was something else)

So, for a VF unit based off the F-104, we need a way to add some meat to it (as it was known as "the missile with a man in it" due to it being mostly engine & cockpit), so let us look at the 'family';

• The X-15A, with its conformal tanks would give the Mass to house the extra parts, though 'ground effect' off the wings are most likely not. As a Space fighter (like the Zentradi VF-XX out of Macross II) it might have promise, though that is my opinion
• Lockheed CL-1200/X-27; the beefed up F-104 younger sibling that got beat-out by the McD-D F-4, GD YF-16 & Northrop YF-5 & YF-17. The Lancer would have the additional Mass for transformation and slightly larger (and higher mounted) wings for 'Ground Effect'.
• Lockheed CL-704: This frankie-monster for the USN took a F-104 and placed a nacelle with 7 compact vertical fans in each on both wings. Canceled after technical difficulties.
• EWR VJ 101: A German VTOL idea using tilt engine nacelles with a F-104 airframe. Similar to the Bell D-188A for the USA & both were projects were cancelled by their respective militaries.

The later most gave me an Idea, though it might suck and would no longer class as a single engine VF. --WARNING-RANT/BRAINSTORMING-WARNING--
Starting with the Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer, change tail to a double vertical (like the F-14/15) or Butterfly (like the YF-21) & add wing nacelles with an engine in them (like the YF-29 or the EWR)

For its transformations, have the base (body/arms/legs) sequence be like that of the VF-22 though the wings slide/pivot back & in like the YF-29 (or like the VF-25 with the FAST packs on and not folding out the wings in Fighter/GERWALK mode).

Thank you, Seto Kaiba, I did not know those views or text.

It has been a while since I watched Macross ZERO & do not have access to those texts.

Speculatively. I still think that neither the UN or Anti-UN would have banked on only one model (be it either VF-0/VF-1 of SV-51), and a single engine design might have been originally in the works.

Though, technical limitations of a single turbine would make a two engine system all the more practical, especially with the need of power for the SWAG energy converting armor.

On a note, the Idea (of a single engine VF) would resurface every so (as I had it for my game), because they do so as well in reality.

Loved a lot of the ideas they had at the VF Research site (fan-based), though it is in Japanese & has seemed to have gone stagnant.

I will have to agree on multiple points with Valkyrie Diver on the idea of using the F-104 as a VF base, JBO.

The F-104 Starfighter was an Aerial Interceptor, not a fighter, and its design reflects that.

The streamlined rocket shape was to allow it to get in the range to use the ordnance of missiles it hand & or strafe the heck out of the target with the 20 mm Vulcan cannon.

Strategy of effective use; Patrol for target, Fly fast once identified, attack them (most likely destroying target), go back on patrol or to base.

I have been also kicking the Idea of a single engine VF around. And, like Valkyrie Diver, was visioning a F-35 airframe with transformation not unlike the VF-22.

Heck I have in head a whole plausible history/development arc for single engine VF units, that (if using Cannon as a baseline) would predate the VF-X-1.

-- RANT - WARNING -- If you are up on your overall VF development history, good. If Not, bare with me.

The UN found the ASS-1 and started developing Destriods & Battriods (seeming to favor Destriods development).

Anti-UN steal copies of the Battriod designs an make a breakthrough, that then UN spies steal back (slightly chronicled in Macross ZERO)

My point is that with the stealing of intellectual properties and duel development of complicated systems, the SV-51 & VF-0/VF-1 look NOTHING alike (in aesthetics or mechanical transformation).
So, only logic in my mind is there was a 'lost' prototype that had properties of both, & a single engine VF unit Seems to it the bill.

Based off the Yakovlev YAK-141 (of which Lockheed had purchased data from before the making of the YF-35) would be my idea, with transformation like the YF-21/VF-22 with wings like the SV-52 (nose-down main body transformation like the VF-1 & stowed arms-out/legs-in like the SV-52). The reasons it was abandoned was simple, the single engine (at the time) did not have enough output to power the SWAG energy converting armor & the rest of the operating systems simultaneously. The thrust output (which would forever be the bane of the concept) also had it be slower than some conventional fighter of the time.

In my developmental path the next unit showed up for the preliminaries of the AVF(for my Mekton+/Macoss game it was called the YF-18 "Harrier III" & was the VF of the F-35 & VF-22). It had all that the UN Spacy wanted in the AVF, and even though it was cheap, the meeting the minimum requirements (in simulated dog-fights, the VF-17 lost only 3 out of 5 times to) was not enough for it to be advanced for trials. It was also felt that the development company may had stolen data from General Galaxy due to the units similarities the YF-21 prototype 1 (truth was actually the reverse).

That is enough of my rant...

Technologies of Macross & the logical comparison to Reality make for ANIME*.moments.

I will not go into the debate of that here, for this is for AVF Upgrade Candidates, not How reality can destroy Macross.

On Fleets needing to upgrade their fighters as they felt was best for them, I had to address that as a GM in a Mekton+/Macross campaign set in 2057 of Macross Continuum & hence is not Cannon.

Synopsis & setting; A long-distance research fleet (launched in 2042) that is following the paths of earlier 'lost' expeditions. They were to seed-colony worlds (for short range immigration fleets &/or scientific research). Many in the New Unity Government feel that they should be classed as 'rogue' due to apparent attempts to find 'lost' fleets (like the Megaroad-01) & Protocultural civilization/colony sites.

Main propose of the modifications/upgrades was that the units could hold there own to allow an evacuation &/or hold their own just enough for help to arrive. Replacing units can get expensive & the PR of lost lives can be more-so to moral.

VF-11; There were many VF-11B units in storage, being upgraded to C as needed. It was noted that they could not get off many world without assistance & potential hazards were greater that the systems were designed for. The VF-11-X (upgrade for C/D units) was started with upgrading the FCS to use AVF weapons/equipment, upgrading the engines to FF-2099A, a limited use Pin-point Barrier system & strengthening frame stress-point to facilitate. Some units were left with the settlement posts that were created & was slowly phasing them out of mainline fleet service.
The additional equipment of FAST packs & ABP were still at the disposal, though being reduced to defensive-line units saw only the aerospace boosters used in secured areas.

(A cheap-out version of the VF-11B/X Thunderbolt Interceptor from Macross R)

VF-17/VF-171; Began as the main unit for the Special Forces, though as time progressed & a more stealth-required sentinel was need for the fleet, the VF-17D was assigned on more fleet patrol duties. With the data dump of the VF-171, the design was looked over & many did not like the redesign. The compromise was the VF-17X, which took the Nightmare Plus, replaced the turbines to the 2110X, the lasers were placed back into the arms and frame reinforced at stress points. All VF-17X were assigned to fleet patrols along side the VF-17D that were being now phased out. The units would later be phase-upgraded to be compatible with EX-Gear interface.

The FAST packs for Super Nightmare (regular & Plus) can be used by the VF-17X, though most pilots (Player Characters) seemed to prefer Original configuration for FAST.

VF-19; Majority were F-series with a few A/S units Due to the trans-atmospheric operations, the A units were being worn out and the F/S were more designated for space operations. During a downtime of the VF-19 production area (ca..2050), information on the EX-Gear was transmitted, Proposal of the Fragarach Project (this would have been parallel development at the same time the VF-19EF was produced for the Frontier fleet) was agreed upon; were the EX-Gear was incorporated, the forward canards were reintroduced to the F/S series, upgrade of the engines & FCS with redesigning/strengthening points of the frame that would need it. The new VF-19FX then replaced the VF-17 as the standard unit for the Special Force.

Additional equipment is available for missions, though most (Player Characters) tend either not to use any, or only take the conformal leg FAST packs.

(I have a write-up on DeviantArt as the VF-19FXR "Fragarach", if you want to check it out)

Zentrondi/Meltrondi Units: Majority of the Units were completely rebuild/refurbished on a regular schedule for optimum performance.

The aging Queadluun-Rau originally assigned to the fleet (as well as the few Meltrondi flotillas that later joined with) got zero-hour rebuilds & phase-updated to the Queadluun-Rhea configuration, once data came over about field upgrades.

The few Glaug units were either being zero-hour refurbished, or converted into Variable Glaug. After information was released on the rejected VBP-1/VA-110 (Macross R), the Variable Glaug were being phase updated to Neo Glaug, with almost no complaints of the loss of the 'battroid' mode (a few designated as VA-110A were made with three mode transformation primarily for micronized Zentron warriors that had donned the Nousjadeul-Ger Battle-suits)

(* = Any Noticeable Inconsistencies May Exist)

It matters the scale of the unit on what my favorite is (Mekton+ reference there)

For clarification, the definition of Mecha is anything that is of a mechanical design, and so...

For Human (1/10 Scale); the Military grade EX-Gear, for no other reason than it allow the wearer to feel as they are apart of the craft.

With honors the Civilian Version (that allow anyone to fly) & the sweeper-bots (that keep the ships clean) with the Filler of things that have become reality (like the digital picture-frame)

The Roadster (1/5 Scale); Isamu's Sport-Touring Motorcycle, cause I like bikes mostly

Honors go to the All the Filler designs that most miss as common in this scale; life in the Macross Continuum would be a lot harder without.

Mekton Scale (1/1); VF-1B because I feel it is a nice design that never got artwork. There are references to it as the "Half-S" (most likely due to it having only 2 head lasers on an S-style head) as it was the Northrom's (whom made majority of the VF-1 units) version of the Shinnakasu VF-1J for (outsourced of manufacturing of) Junior Officer units.

This round of Honorable Mentions go to the VF-5000G Star Mirage, VF-11A Thunderbolt II, VF-19P, Destroid Cheyenne II & the Queadluun-Rhea Battlesuit

Corvette Scale (10/1 Scale); With very few in this scale it actually made it harder, although the VB-6 Konig Monster got it. How they were able to get the massive beast of the largest destroid able to convert and still function as it should is great. Though the only drawback with it was I can not see (nor have I seen) the practical use of the 'destrioid/battloid' & the label of the GERWALK mode is original base for (& I can not see how "Ground Effect" movement is possible). With these snipes it almost lost to an Honorable.

Honorable mentions for this mammoth class are the HWR 00 Mk I Destroid Monster, the VBP-1/VA-110 Neo-Glaug (from Marcoss R) & the Large-size Vajra

Starship Scale (100/1); In this. there is a wide field to choose from. Going from the small Zentradi Scout Ship (that blew up in Ichijo's face), to the massive size of the Macross Cannon (which uses 4 Nupetiet-Vergnitzs-Class ships for the guns) & the strange growth of the Vajra Bishop-class mothership. Out of all of these the one that stands out the most was the Macross Quarter (Macross Frontier). I liked almost all aspects of it, though the thought of having a 100/1 mecha doing close-quarter/hand-to-hand seems dangerous (to the crew on board) & costly (damage repair from landing the hit)

The other considered for the Honor was the Macross Cannon, SDF-2 MegaLord, SDFN ships-of-the-line & Knight-Class Vajra Carrier