GuardianGrey
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Posts posted by GuardianGrey
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Given what is shown in all the anime series/films, I'm fairly certain space folds can be achieved almost anywhere; near the ground, in the air or in space.
I didn't say that it was not possible, though the gravity-well/planet might mess with the calculation of were one ends up.
I wonder if that is what might have caused so many so-called mid-fold issues.
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Not so much a relationship/shipping-war, but a franchise observation.
Macross timeline has somewhere between M7 & Frontier, the UN Spacy reorganized and became NUNS organization.
In the separate/parallel timeframe of Macross II, that reality's UN Spacy equipment/facilities were marked with the different emblem/kite &/or N.U.N.S.
I just got done re-watching the OAV of; though it odd that all the dress-uniforms had that emblem with NUNS over it, though they referred to themselves as UN Spacy (at least it was to me).
On the characters relationship, ugh!
Though, I will get into that in another post.
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Since we seem to be discussing verniers & thrust vectoring, I do have a question.
There is no doubt about the vernier motors have enough thrust to lift a VF into VTO...
As I said before---the Harrier's puff-jets turned up to 11.
Which brings up my point.
The puff-jets on a Harrier helps in transition from level flight to hovering & back.
Above is a training VF-1 in GERWALK mode, though what is the mode below?
Is it GERWALK simply Without Arms deployed, or a aircraft with extreme thrust vectoring by moving the main engines (JBO's comment about emergency stopping comes to mind)?
Considering my theoretical VTOL with just using the vernier motors (in Real World Technological References of Macross Variable Aircraft) was with the original controls, not the Block 6 HOTAS system (which the computerized controls very well may not allow such maneuvers).
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Unlikely... if anything, the reverse was probably true. The YF/VF-19 program's difficulties are generally attributed to the prototype's excessively high performance, and particularly the g-loads pilots were subjected to as the result of its exceptional maneuverability... the issue was that the airframe was hard to control because it was programmed perhaps a little too well, requiring special training to handle an aircraft that was much more responsive than any previous design.
I'm going to partly agree with you again, Seto Kaiba.
Yes, the flight control operating system for the YF/VF-19 was programmed to fly at peak performance.
With that said, there was no coding for the "biological barrier" (be it physical limitations &/or operator arrogance/ignorance/stupidity).
A real world example of limiters in the code is the B-2.
Flying wing designs are notorious for tumbling out of control and crashing if the aircraft slows to stall speed.
If the tale is true, Jack Northrop seen a test flight of the B-2, and warned the pilot against trying to stall the craft prior to. After the demonstration, Jack asked the pilot if he tried to stall the plane. The response from the pilot was that the system would not allow him to.
I've read a couple different explanations for that one... the one that made the most sense being that, at the time the VF-0's had been retired before being pushed into service due to delays in VF-1 mass production, they had been evaluating refinements meant for the VF-1's later production blocks and successors. (Probably wasn't so much a case of "train like you fight" so much as "Our enemy has a combat-worthy VF in the air, get a transformable fighter combat-worthy YESTERDAY".)
On this, I can see it, though also willing to wager that Roy was not happy going to the VF-1 cockpit after flying with the HOTAS system.
What you're thinking of here is the VF-25+EX-Gear, where the EX-Gear's learning computer learns the habits of its user and uses that data to improve control response.
The VF-0 is also described as having a learning computer, but it's only really mentioned in connection with the Ghost Booster... due to the complexity of the aerodynamics involved, the learning computer had to sort out the handling on its own in actual flight due to gaps in the simulated data it was "Trained" with.
Nope, I was just referring to the VF-0's flight control computer. Had totally forgotten about the EX-Gear system.
Though, thank you for the clarification.
The EX-Gear having a learning system is logical, for it would know the cause/effect biometric movements of its operator, which would enhance performance (the real world Cyberdyne HAL frame utilize a similarly described system).
----- Back On Topic-----
I have to agree, getting into a LEO (Low Earth Orbit) is easier than escaping the plenary gravity and starting Deep Space travel (which, I believe, is needed to be able to safely operate a Fold Booster).
Even on the low end, X-15 test pilots got their astronaut wings due to the operation altitude they achieved.
The SR-71 reportedly could fly to the point where it was losing flight surface control (due to the thin atmosphere), though at the same time achieved its highest speeds.
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An identifying mark one can eyeball if you get sufficiently close for a long enough time... from the dialog in Zero it sounds more like D.D. recognized Roy from his distinctive flying style as much, if not more than, his paintjob. (On the other hand, Roy seems to spot D.D. because of his distinctive all-black paintjob and fanged skull-and-crossed-swords... so it could go both ways.)
I'm going to get away from the D.D./Roy identified units and kick at the Nora/Shin units.
Nora's SV-51 would be a prime example of flamboyant paint scheme for the purpose to be seen, and Shin knew it after his first encounter with her.
I believe Nora said about Shin that even though he changed machines (VF-0D to the VF-0 Angel), that he still flew "like a little boy(?)."
If one believes in biometric signatures (how one does things in a way unique to only them) is magnified/transferred through the tools we use (VF units included), then all the pilots would known their "dance partner" due to the amount of engagements they had verses each other.
The same appears to be true for elite units later on too... where everyone's pretty much painted the same. If Master File was anything to go by (and it may or may not be!), units where the aces engage in "combat peacocking" are the exception rather than the rule...
On this I will agree, considering the VF-19s of M7. The Emerald Squad seemed mostly uniform...
compared to the Sound Force unit...
Though on the main topic of TV vs. Movie, the mechanical design of Reguld is the same, though I like the TV blue better.
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My thoughts are that the HOTAS flight control system (introduced with the Block 6 upgrades to the VF-1) allows for better space & atmospheric maneuvering.
It's responsible for the vernier motors firing to allow a semblance of aerial maneuvers in the vacuum of space (the program algorithms/calculations for burn times on which motors would induce headaches in most).
While inside an atmosphere, the same system utilizes all control functions (flaps, verniers & anything else) to provide the best performance possible.
If said program is faulty/incomplete, the craft will be hard to control, which may have been an additional problem/reason the YF-19 burning through pilots (besides the biological barrier due to the craft's performance).
While the HOTAS system streamlined the 53 controls (number might be wrong) in the original VF-1 cockpit, I feel Macross Zero brings up two things.
First is that the VF-0 cockpit had the HOTAS controls, and not the original VF-1 style. Which would make little/no sense for a preproduction/training unit (with the military's 'train like you fight' philosophy). Though that could be for entertainment reasons.
And second, I believe I read somewhere that the flight control system had a learning capability to be able to perform better. That maybe true, though (could be speculated) the system would also learn the pilot's behavior and try to facilitate for that individual (& making it hard for anyone else to control the unit).
Since we seem to also be discussing verniers & thrust vectoring, I do have a question.
There is no doubt about the vernier motors have enough thrust to lift a VF into VTO...
As I said before---the Harrier's puff-jets turned up to 11.
Which brings up my point.
The puff-jets on a Harrier helps in transition from level flight to hovering & back.
Above is a training VF-1 in GERWALK mode, though what is the mode below?Is it GERWALK simply Without Arms deployed, or a aircraft with extreme thrust vectoring by moving the main engines (JBO's comment about emergency stopping comes to mind)?
Considering my theoretical VTOL with just using the vernier motors (in Real World Technological References of Macross Variable Aircraft) was with the original controls, not the Block 6 HOTAS system (which the computerized controls very well may not allow such maneuvers). -
And you just made my point.
D.D. & Roy knew their personal marks, and knew/learned the others paint.
Even with the VF-0 Angel package on, Roy's tail being black with a Jolly Roger emblazoned on it (the CAG unit) would practically scream who he was, and anyone else wasn't.
D.D. wasn't as bad as that (no CAG tail marking), although his unit being the only one painted in low-visibility gray did not help.
But they had to get to impractically close quarters to recognize each other... and even then, Roy's paintjob only stood out because the VF-0's in question were from an evaluation unit that didn't have any kind of uniform heraldry at the time. Things got more uniform with the VF-1 (circa DYRL) and on later VFs, where there might only be a colored stripe to distinguish one pilot's machine from another... and often not even that much. After that, completely individualized paint schemes seem to be the domain of the irregulars (e.g. Sound Force) and mercenaries (SMS).
If you'll remember, Roy and D.D. knew each other before they became enemies, so there's a chance that D.D.'s paint job was distinctive, since the regular mook birds were painted Wilbur Creech brown (the poo brown color that all US military buildings are painted).
It's easy for a fighter pilot to recognize another pilot's particular style. If we go back to WW1, you had pilots recognize the red Baron, they may not have known who it was before he was publicized, but they recognized the danger and said, "THE RED ONE! SHOOT THE RED ONE! OR HE'LL KILL US ALL!!!"
On some of your points, Seto Kaiba, I do agree.
For the CAG tail paint, the reason I didn't agree is basic. How does one tell the difference between a male & female robin? The color on the breast.
I do understand that the surface area of the tail (fighter aircraft or VF-0/1) is ratio smaller than the robin's breast. Though, once learned, that is an identifying mark.
Also, with the combat many VF units get engaged are "impractically close quarters," recognition would be more frequent.
On the uniform heraldry, I will partly agree.
Though the reason is, as Valkyrie Driver pointed out, the mook fighters are painted in a similar fashion even in SDF-Macross...
& Macross Zero...
Though the reasons for this, I feel, is for entertainment & marketing. One wants to easily see the action without hunting for the characters.
As for a "realistic" mercenary Air Corp, the manga of "Area 88" is fitting. Majority of the fighters (even though different types of) had the same basic paint scheme, although the tails were emblazoned/stylized differently.
On the Sound Force, that was for marketing (in series & real life), considering that the Jamming Birds were not so flamboyant.
For Manfred von Richthofen (aka the Red Baron), in DYRL? I feel Miria fit that role well.
The Zentradi warriors knew that the red painted Queadluun-Rau was deadly to engage, with little possibly of knowing the pilot's name.
And Miria continued that with her red VF-22S/M37.
I feel Klan Klang tried to tap into that with her Queadluun-Rhea, or a form idol mimicry.
Now, going slightly back on Topic, while I like the movie colors, I preferred the mechanical design of the TV series for the Queadluun-Rau better.
And, at first viewing of the TV paint scheme, it seems uniform enough to make it hard to tell on Meltran from another (commander or general solider).
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I do get annoyed when individuals either do not fully quote, or seem to selectively pick parts of a post to reference.
Any selected post references will be underlined.
Strikeoutsare of information that I had wrong &/or corrected on.Those that are in italics are references that I am questioning about.
That maybe true, though is there any reference/trivia of what the default/natural color of ECA is?The final reason was real life technical references. The binding/pigment of paint may not seem to be a lot, but not painting the external fuel tank of the shuttle launch system saved roughly (& literally) a ton of weight. A clear semi-gloss/flat finish coat would be lighter & help protect against corrosion.
Also many armed forces of the time were also having their aircraft coated in a similar fashion.One thing that we don't know is what the ECA looks like without a coating/paint. If would happen to be "white" by nature, then I would be both right (that it's just clear coated) and wrong (that it would have a metallic coloring).
Consider the white on both Max's & Kakizaki's VF-1A units.
Probably not as severe an issue on a smaller craft like a VF... esp. if, as in Macross, the "paint" is also fulfilling other functions... and this neatly ties into the next bit:
Actually, according to the descriptions in Macross Chronicle and Great Mechanics.DX, the two are actually one and the same. The ablative anti-beam coating is an added function of the passive stealth coating applied to the airframe.On the anti-laser coating turning the VF-171 "white," that maybe true & in doing so might mess with the passive stealth material of the airframe.
Oh, I forgot, it now has Active Stealth.
Okay, that goes with a thought that I had posted...
And, even though I was wrong on how long militaries kept the bare metal look, the colors of the F/B-117, F-22 & F-35 are that way due to the radar abating material that the surfaces are made of, & painting over was said to increase radar return.With OT, one could theorize that coating with radar absorbent/defusing properties could have been formulated (& be semi-clear), though that would be speculative.
I had assumed (incorrectly it seems) that the same was true for the VF-17/171 series.
The material we see is pretty darn tough stuff... though that's a recurring theme in Macross where material science is concerned.On the weathering of the coating/paint of a VF, the chemical makeup can only do so much against physical effects. Also, some conditions a VF goes through would strip even most advanced modern day molecular bonded coatings.
The paint on the YF-21 survived pretty much everything that was thrown at it, until pushed the YF-21 to the limit at too low of an altitude and the paint burned off from the friction heating at some ungodly high velocity below 30km.
(Mind you, there's some art that suggests Mylene hand-painted the Gubaba on her VF-11MAXL... and that's shown to have been tough enough to withstand reentry heat.)
On the YF-21 final fight/flight, I thought that was atmospheric charring (like the early re-entry capsules got}, though that was also with the belief that the YF-21's skin was like the F-22/35/117.
The panel lines are were we seen heat buildup during Guld's chase of the X-9 (the glowing red during & majority of the black after), which would be accurate.
On Mylene's VF-11MAXL-kai, the Gubaba was on top of the wing.
So, as long as the binding agents don't "boil" in the cooler temperatures, it would not have to be.
Considering the ventral side during re-entry is roughly three times hotter, if VF units do atmospheric insertion like the shuttle did.
Though tougher, physical weathering is still going to happen.
That sounds like part of a conversation JBO & I had...That it might, Seto Kaiba, though battlefield headhunting isn't new.
While there is mention of the Zentradi feeling the VF-1A units were fodder (in the Robotech RPG core rules), it was also a plot-point in SDFM.
When Kamjin goateed Milia about one enemy pilot that is at least her equal, that sets up her confrontation/meeting with Max.
That's... not exactly accurate. Quamzin just said that there was an ace aboard the Macross that was as good (or better) than Milia, and at the time Max was not flying an "elite" craft either. Not to mention Milia's exploratory attack had her killing mooks at random because she had no idea what to look for.
Which leaves open many questions.., which is better for the Old-time Shipping Wars thread.Again, true, JBO.
We may (thank goodness) never understand Kamjin, the ally-killer.
He may have not really thought anyone of the UNS could best Milia, and his saving face while challenging her pride may have been part of a plan.
If he viewed Milia as a rival/threat, getting her to challenge UNS pilots to find "the best" would set her up for a "lucky shot" to take her out (be it an actual random shot by a UNS, or not-so friendly-fire).
Kamjin, despite his ego, was not idiotic person.
Although, that same ego lead him to do stupid things.
And you just made my point.We see that slightly again in Macross Zero, with the duels with D.D. & Roy mostly.
For, in fighter-mode & other than paint, how can one easily tell the difference between a VF-0A & 0S while both have the Angel package?
Now THAT part is true... though the VFs in question needed to get VERY close to each other in order for the pilots to recognize their opposite numbers... and they needed to be on fairly intimate terms to recognize the other's personal markings.
D.D. & Roy knew their personal marks, and knew/learned the others paint.
Even with the VF-0 Angel package on, Roy's tail being black with a Jolly Roger emblazoned on it (the CAG unit) would practically scream who he was, and anyone else wasn't.
D.D. wasn't as bad as that (no CAG tail marking), although his unit being the only one painted in low-visibility gray did not help.
Was thinking on that shining metal finish, and remember that I had bought both the 1/144 VF-11C & VF-11MAXL-kai kits from Bandai.maybe from the Takani, Tenjin and other various valkyrie illustrations?
I looked at the decal sheets, which had the white of the UNS & surrounding area near the Gubaba as reflective silver.
I think that reinforced my idea that it was to be metallic, despite the pictures depicting the white paint.
So, I blame Bandai.
----- Back to Topic -----
As I stated in an earlier post, for mechanical I prefer the DYRL? designs. Colors was a toss up, other than the paint scheme for the Skull Squadron.With that said, the only pattern we have seen on the VF-1S is the Skull Squadron layout.
For the general VF-1A units, I prefer the paint scheme of Vermillion wing & UN Headquarter Guard, or the Dark Birds. The light brown to me looks like $#!+, IMHO, so I would have preferred Kakizaki in the green.
Of those that are shown, the SDF Macross commander scheme for the Skull Squadron VF-1J units are preferred. And again, the light brown looks like crud.
For the training units (VF-1D or VT-1), I actually like the DYRL? scheme for.
Oh, I would once again like to thank Mr. March for his work with the Macross Mecha Manual site.
Though, a question on the VT-1 coloring. Why is not the centerline from cockpit to the head (battroid) orange? I reference to the fighter mode for the reason.
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Guardian,
Your point about headhunting is valid. Though is far less prevalent these days. In Macross Zero, the fact that D.D. and Roy seem to go at it, is probably due to the fact that they were two members of a very select few at the time, and were seeing a lot of action against each other. On that scale it's easy to pick out individuals. However on the scale we're talking for SDFM or DYRL, it is exceedingly difficult.
Squadron Colors are painted on the CAG bird for friendly recognition. The IFF only tells you if it's friendl (More sophisticated units might give you more specifics, bit that's eyes on your screens and not outside). Nothing is faster than visual recognition, to tell you who's on your wing.
Agreed, that is why I liked the DYRL? Skull squadron paint scheme.
The patterns/shapes look the same, and other than the highlight colors (blue, green, red & yellow; which the squad would know who's who) in fighter/GERWALK modes they would look the same.
If there was any headhunting, the enemy could easily identify the group, though not the individual.
Remembering the comment of JBO on why Milia (or a member of her squad) took out Kakizaki in DYRL?.
If the Zentron & Meltron did work together (I know in DYRL? they were not supposedly), then headhunting of Skull squad units might have been happening, and poor Kakizaki was an unlucky one.
As for the natural metal finish, from a practical standpoint it wouldn't be done. As a rule we stopped doing bare metal finishes in the 50's (there are a few exceptions). The shine was a shoot me signal, It increased radar reflectivity, and was easy to spot. Also, in the late 70's and early 80's we began to see low vis grey making its way onto almost all aircraft, and by the mid 90's a good 90% of all aircraft were low vis grey (it can take a while to do, especially when an aircraft had just been freshly painted). My dates might be a bit off, but the point is, bare metal is bad juju for a military aircraft.
On reviewing all my National Museum of the United States Air Force books (I get a new one about every time I go, which is about once a decade), your timeframes are about right.
Though on the clear-coat, I could argue.
A semi-gloss or flat clear-coating can protect from corrosion & knock down the reflective glare to nearly zero (and, other than special units, most military units are flat finished, I believe) and allow for a bare metal look.
With OT, one could theorize that coating with radar absorbent/defusing properties could have been formulated (& be semi-clear), though that would be speculative.
Is painting a unit mostly white really better in looks that a metal, no matter what the gloss/reflection of the finish is?
Second thought, usually a flat/matte finish on bare metal doesn't look good (IMHO) and semi-gloss is only slightly better.
As far as visible stealth on spacecraft goes... it doesn't really help a lot either way, because you're still blazing a 50-foot neon "I AM HERE" sign in the infrared.
I don't know where the visible stealth came in...
Oh, on the low-visibility (I usually read visible stealth as Cloaking technology)
I see now, and you are right, although I would have to think for cooling & low-detection the engineers would have a way to bleed off the excessive heat and not have the unit be a natural target.
Max and Millia kinda throws a wrench in the targeting by head module theory, as Max was flying a 1A at the time.
True, though Max's blue paint may have made him easier to identify.
It's debatable if Kamjin meant Max, Roy, or even Hikaru. The two wound up going toe-to-toe an awful lot, and Hikaru always came out on top somehow.
Or, indeed, if he meant anyone. He may've just been trying to save face and piss Millia off. Blame the hidden ace and challenge her pride in one shot.
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I have a lot of trouble reading Kamjin, really.
Again, true, JBO.
We may (thank goodness) never understand Kamjin, the ally-killer.
He may have not really thought anyone of the UNS could best Milia, and his saving face while challenging her pride may have been part of a plan.
If he viewed Milia as a rival/threat, getting her to challenge UNS pilots to find "the best" would set her up for a "lucky shot" to take her out (be it an actual random shot by a UNS, or not-so friendly-fire).
Kamjin, despite his ego, was not idiotic person.
Although, that same ego lead him to do stupid things.
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Okay, using quotes in an attempt to not derail lines of thought.
Though, I had originally expressed four in one post & three were committed about.
Colors is a bit tougher, for in my mind the "white" paint on the VF-1S Skull 01 (Skull Leader/Flokker Special) was suppose to be bare/clear-coated metal (knight in shining armor imagery) as was the TV VF-1J (Ichijo, the squire) & the VF-11C of M7 (visible vanguards).
Not sure where you're getting that idea...
maybe from the Takani, Tenjin and other various valkyrie illustrations?
That looks like a probable place where that misconception could be picked up.
'course, we know VFs aren't flying as bare metal airframes... they've got a variety of materials applied to the airframe's composite armor skin, such as paint or coatings of passive stealth material/anti-beam weapon ablative armor. The "Caution Sign and MODEX" sections of Variable Fighter Master File also include a number of locations on the airframe (sensors and such) which are not to be painted on.
Perhaps the most blatant case of this being the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX, for which the change from blue-grey to white is explained as the result of the new formulation of ablative anti-beam coating applied to the airframe.
The artwork is one of three reasons I thought it might be bare/clear-coated metal skin....and yet with all the advances in OT...they still can't formulate anti-weathering paint! Guess none of the OT budget went into advancing chemical engineering!!!
Another one was that other contemporary anime series of the time had defaulted to "white" for shining metallic surfaces.
The final reason was real life technical references. The binding/pigment of paint may not seem to be a lot, but not painting the external fuel tank of the shuttle launch system saved roughly (& literally) a ton of weight. A clear semi-gloss/flat finish coat would be lighter & help protect against corrosion. Also many armed forces of the time were also having their aircraft coated in a similar fashion.
One thing that we don't know is what the ECA looks like without a coating/paint. If would happen to be "white" by nature, then I would be both right (that it's just clear coated) and wrong (that it would have a metallic coloring).
Consider the white on both Max's & Kakizaki's VF-1A units.
On the anti-laser coating turning the VF-171 "white," that maybe true & in doing so might mess with the passive stealth material of the airframe.
Oh, I forgot, it now has Active Stealth.
On the weathering of the coating/paint of a VF, the chemical makeup can only do so much against physical effects. Also, some conditions a VF goes through would strip even most advanced modern day molecular bonded coatings.
The dark main colors of Dark Angels (SDFM, j/k if you didn't see them, then they did their job), Diamond & Sapphire (M7) squadrons and the YF-21 make a fair amount of logic for low visibility in space.
On reflection of, I fully agree with that line of thought.Not quite. Realistically, any color is a low-viz color in space because there's simply not enough ambient light to make out color unless you're very close to a star or a massive, high-albedo surface like a planet or large-ish moon. Sci-fi commonly has ships unrealistically (and uniformly) illuminated to make it easier for the viewer to see the ship. What you'd get during most flights in space would be more on the order of what we see in the original Macross series when they pass through Jupiter's shadow... nothing visible but running lights. (Or as seen on the SDF-1 Macross in the opening sequence of DYRL?.)
On the CAG/Squad Leader's unit having the squad colors bright on their tail (while the rest get shaded versions on theirs), I have no issue with.
Though, giving the whole squad said makes it harder to find the Leader.
In response to Seto Kaiba; the IFF & squad datalink tools are good for that, if you are a friendly unit.That's what IFF and other squad datalink tools are for.
In the situation that one is battlefield headhunting, it is another matter.
Read my reply below about "Robotech-ism."
On that thought, I believe I had read some where that the Zentradi started targeting VF-1 B/J/S units because they figured/realized that said were for the sub/main flight commanders (better fighters).
That it might, Seto Kaiba, though battlefield headhunting isn't new.Sounds like a Robotech-ism to me.
While there is mention of the Zentradi feeling the VF-1A units were fodder (in the Robotech RPG core rules), it was also a plot-point in SDFM.
When Kamjin goateed Milia about one enemy pilot that is at least her equal, that sets up her confrontation/meeting with Max.
Although, and I'm not sure about, that Kamjin was actually referring to Roy.
Though Roy, Max & Ichijo flew unique units and all were frontline fighters that angered Kamjin at some point.
We see that slightly again in Macross Zero, with the duels with D.D. & Roy mostly.
For, in fighter-mode & other than paint, how can one easily tell the difference between a VF-0A & 0S while both have the Angel package?
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Mechanical design, I would choose DYRL? mostly due to the realism.
Colors is a bit tougher, for in my mind the "white" paint on the VF-1S Skull 01 (Skull Leader/Flokker Special) was suppose to be bare/clear-coated metal (knight in shining armor imagery) as was the TV VF-1J (Ichijo, the squire) & the VF-11C of M7 (visible vanguards).
The dark main colors of Dark Angels (SDFM, j/k if you didn't see them, then they did their job), Diamond & Sapphire (M7) squadrons and the YF-21 make a fair amount of logic for low visibility in space.
On the CAG/Squad Leader's unit having the squad colors bright on their tail (while the rest get shaded versions on theirs), I have no issue with.
Though, giving the whole squad said makes it harder to find the Leader.
On that thought, I believe I had read some where that the Zentradi started targeting VF-1 B/J/S units because they figured/realized that said were for the sub/main flight commanders (better fighters).
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I can see your point JBO.
Though, if all the hardware is a 100+ times stronger & a laser is amped up 250+ times, one would think that it would be still doing some damage.
The airborne laser system of the NKC-135A was tested on drone units, though they were never specified. Logically for that timeframe, either the Lockheed QF-104 &/or Ryan-Teledyne BQM-34C were most likely used (for more information about the BQM-34C, read about it in the Real World Technology References of Macross Variable Aircraft or Google it).
Now, back on track and topic.
UNS capital ships are said to have ECA, so do Zentradi ships also have said?
Do the Zentradi warriors also have ECA for their mecha units, or were they considered fodder to the point where it was deemed not worth it?
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I did have an additional thought on the subject of turbines.
Is the thrust ratings for the ground tests (mounted into a frame) and aircraft the same?
I do know/understand that there are different models of the same type of turbine (FF-2001 compared to FF-2001D), though can't comprehend why there would be a difference between bench and actual use of the same model.
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I know that this was from the PSX video game, Macross: Do You Remember Love?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R0P5e3Qt2lM
In between 0:45-0:55, Skull 010 & 011 (Max & Ichijo, I think) are lined up on the catapults on a carrier.
Skull 011 seems to do a quick check of all flight control surfaces before launching.
I will admit I am not sure if that is how they do it before taking off, though it is (I feel) a good example of said systems.
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Ah, the VA-3M, the only cannon artwork for an aquatic & flying VF.
The only prior thoughts on was the VF-5, though the VA-3M has it beat by also having a submersible mode.
Other than having to deal with the danger/strain of re-entry, most VF only have to deal with atmospheric pressures from 0-25 PSI.
Then the turbines underwater, the thermonuclear ones are easy.
The EGF-127 might have been able to operate without air intake if the fuel was already oxygenated (usually in dragster hydro-methane, as an example) &/or (as being preproduction models that may have had) the MHD that broke down the water to hydrogen & oxygen for the turbines to use.
Edgar (I believe) commented that the VF-0 could operate underwater for up to 15 minutes (after Shin griped about him landing/floppy the VF-0D into the water). Though the intakes were supposedly closed to allow such actions, so it would lead to the oxygenated fuel mix (turbines used like rockets) theory (which, in turn would probably use up the fuel faster.
Edit Additional Post Script
I just read your bit, Seto Kaiba, and that also makes sense on the MHD unit.
Usually, most preproduction models have majority (>60%) of the production parts/systems.
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Fan Racer..... no Pegassus First 100% mexican aircraft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L2TtdXzkXPQ
It does bare many similarities to the Fan-Racer.
The dual seats though start me to think of the Fan-Liner (the plane Minmei won as Miss Macross).
I wonder if the engine/frame could handle a larger radius of propellers to be more like the Fan-Racer for looks & speed.
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Okay, I think I might be understanding it a bit better now.Back on topic...
Answering GuardianGrey
The specifics of ECA don't go into the kind of detail we'd need to completely understand how it works. But I can say for certain that ECA is not an ablative effect nor is it any kind of force field upon/within the armor itself, at least as the official trivia describes the technology. Most likely, ECA is using electromagnetic energy to strengthen the molecular bonds of the armor material at an atomic level. I believe this is called - and take into account I'm way out of my scientific comfort zone here - magnetic field manipulation of chemical bonding.
On my abatement comment, I was trying to say that it would prevent weakening of the armor while active (easier to dent while not energized, almost impossible to do so when power is on).
The electromagnetic field of ECA (when active) may have been a factor in its performance, though I have other thoughts on that.
Mainly that the fields are needed for the PPBS to work properly (the conduit for the first generation to move around the SDF-1), though that is my current believe/theory.
Okay then, I was not just hearing things in Macross Plus OAV (dubbed) when Isamu was reading the YF-19 specifications and read about the new anti-laser coating.Since we are talking about beam/laser weapons against armor - and this is where an actual claim of "retroactive continuity" may have merit - it's worth mentioning the Macross Chronicle does describe several times of Anti-Optical Weapon Vaporization Armor being standard on most mecha. This anti-optical armor is often written within the context that explains why military vehicles are still using projectile weapons like gun pods in an age of practical directed energy weapons and high-speed, high maneuverability micro-missiles.
Basically, Kawamori and Co. love gun pods and will write their universe with whatever fiction necessary to justify the continued use of projectile weapons
I thought Nora disengaged/distanced her SV-51 when Shin opened fire with the VF-0D's head laser (considering that Nora's cockpit was at point-blank range for, and Shin still missed!), though I might be recalling the scene wrong.Going off topic momentarily...
I agree the VF-0 Phoenix head lasers were shown as only useful against unarmed/lightly armored objects (like missiles) but ineffective against mecha (the SV-51 or the Octos). However, the head unit lasers from the VF-1 Valkyrie and onwards are shown several times as deadly against enemy mecha. Roy's VF-1S Valkyrie uses the head lasers to completely destroy a Reguld Battle Pod in one of the earliest episodes of SDF Macross (episode 2?). Also, Max severly damages Milia's Queadluun-Rau powered suit with the VF-1S head lasers in the DYRL? film. And as GuardianGrey has pointed out, in Macross Plus the head cannons are dangerous to enemy mecha (at least in fighter mode) as shown in the YF-19 vs. YF-21 fight. This continues in Macross Frontier also, with Brera's VF-27 desperately dodging laser fire from Alto piloting his VF-25 and attacking with the head cannons while in fighter mode. If later head lasers were as useless in battle as those on the VF-0 Phoenix, they'd be disregarded as harmless by pilots, just like Nora did in her SV-51. Clearly, they are dangerous, at least as anti-aircraft weapons...which is what they are called.
I may post more to the Real Life Technologies thread, though I don't know how to compare laser damage/wattage.
The VF-1A is said to have a 5 MW laser, which many seem to believe is weak. I was assuming that as a preproduction model (VF-0) would have been using majority of the same systems.
In reality, a 15 kW pulse-laser (in tests aboard the NKC-135A) downed AiM-9 (Sidewinder) missiles & target drones. The YAL-1 (with a 20 kW COIL system in tests) shot down ballistic missiles while in boost-stage.
Both are rated (at least) 250x less in power than the RoV-20 Mauler of the VF-1, and can do a fair amount of damage.
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I know this is degreasing from the thread's topic, though here is my two cents.
On the matter of head mounted lasers, yes anti-missile & cutting torch are the most noted.
And, even if their damage potential is minimal, it seems the threat of is high.
Cases of this point are when Nora (SV-51) quickly disengaged from Shin (VF-0D) when he deployed the head laser (don't recall any hits scored) in Macross Zero.
In SDFM, in the scenes that the head lasers of the VF-1J are animated coming from the FLIR sensors, they are being used against enemy units (again, don't remember if they scored).
When Ichijo did the "Alpha Strike" (using all of the weapons at once) near the end of DYRL?, though that would be only a token worth of damage in comparison to the other weapons used.
The last example I can think of is Isamu (YF-19) verses Guld (YF-21), after they re-entered Earth's atmosphere & the YF-19's head laser was used to "discourage" the YF-21 from tailing (debatable if Isamu was actually trying to hit Guld or not).
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Now, back on topic. I maybe wrong in what Andras might be trying to ask, though if the ECA is supposed to make the armor of a VF "stronger", how is that exactly measurable?Does it act/perform as if the material is thicker?
Or, does it not allow abatement/weakening of the armor to lighter/non-penetrating attacks?
Then again, does the current used throughout the armor make a field that helps minimize beam/laser weapons, or help facilitate the use of the PPBS?
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With resent reading of this thread, it does bring up a question set.
How important are internal missile/weapon stores?
With updating the design, if Active Stealth System is included, would not moving the weapon bays to wing pylons to facilitate newer turbines (& frame reinforcements that may be needed) make more sense for versatility?
An off example of this might be the VF-11B Thunderbolt Interceptor, since the VF-11C had the same turbines as the B-series and had internal stores in the legs.
Of course this brings up was the VF-0/VF-1 the only design that could fully transform into all 3-modes with wing stores in place?
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No, the bit I'm talking about is about 40 seconds after that part... the Konig Monster drifts off in Heavy GERWALK mode, and the next time we see it (circa 19:15), it's in Destroid mode, firing away with the forearm guns while Island-1 descends in the background:
Ah, I see now & the image answers helps answer the questions about how could the VB-6 utilize its weapons in Destriod mode.
I'm (most likely making a mistake and) assuming that the four (4) rail cannons are not able to be used in said form (due to the usual need of both legs and bracing plate to fire).
In actual fact, the VF-1 had a pair of verniers specifically for deceleration on the outside of its intakes...
I agree with that, Seto Kaiba, as was previously pointed out in the Real Life Technologies thread with Mr March's gif marking the FLIR sensors also as.
Well... according to Master File, there's already a GIC system inside every thermonuclear reaction turbine engine, which is both the means by which the reaction is catalyzed and controlled and the method by which the resulting plasma stream is manipulated.
If I had to guess, I'd say that the reason nobody's tried to put an artificial gravity system on a VF is that there's too much potential to have something go badly awry... like what happened with the original ISC prototype, where it MAGNIFIED the g-forces on the pilot's body instead of reducing them, or having them somehow interfere with the GIC inside the reaction turbines. Using an AG field to simulate planetary gravity or provide deceleration forces wouldn't actually dampen g-forces from lateral motion either...
On the effectiveness of gravity field manipulation, there is always room to debate, although the "oops" of the prototype ISC is not an usual fear of said systems.
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Okay, my choice of wording was poor again.
On the UN providing information, they did but not fully.
On technology for civilian purposes form the ASS-1, spinoffs of military applications were most likely. For it seems that the Protoculturian/Supervisor Army/Zentradi military craft were spartan construction.
With the declaration of development, even if not fully disclosing what it is, has allowed the UN military claim having the first VF (as to Nora & D.D. comments about the SV-51 development).
This mirrors the feeling some have that Nazi Germany may have had a transonic jet/rocket plane that flew, though not declared allowed the USAF claim the first supersonic flight.
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I think I have seen that in a clip on YouTube (VB-6 Monster part II), Seto Kaiba, though I can't say for sure that it was in Destriod or GERWALK mode by the angle/view we are given as it floats off.
I know I did say the veinier thrusters could slowdown forward movement in the Real Life Technologies thread in referring to VTOL capability of a VF, though I agree that redundancy is a good thing at times.
Heck, my fan-made VF-19FXR did reintroduce the canards to the F-series, though also retained some of verniers from the space optimization. Redundant, though if needed, best to have.
Though not a VF, the SDF-1 had redundant systems for lifting (the rocket engines & gravitational turbines).
Odd thought, why has no one miniaturized the gravitational field systems to fighter-scale?
Or could the IVCS/ISC systems a development/spinoff of the attempt to do so, by compensating for G-forces with gravity/fold fields?
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Now that I find funny, for any (pure) NASA R&D discoveries are classified as public domain.
It makes me equally wonder if the Government(s) have access to technology that is way beyond what the public would call "sci-fi" tech, though have not released the knowledge publicly due to fears of mass panic.
In SDF Macross, they could not hide the fact that the ASS-1 crashed, though they did not release the information about the Zentradi or the development of the VF-1 as a transforming unit to the general population.
Transformers (Michael Bay), ID4, MIB & other movies/stories have similar lines of thought.
Now the actuators of the VF-25 do exist, Mythbusters have used them to bust several myths.
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Thank you for your response, Andras, that was what I was trying to convey.
And even if the VB-6 is not a morphing/flexible wing, it is still an impressive feat of engineering to have the trailing edge of a wing (usually the thinnest/weakest part of) become the footplate for a 100+ ton unit.
Because I haven't seen MF, does the VB-6 ever go into its "destroid" mode (I would call it 'battroid' myself)?
Or does it only change to GERWALK mode (that looks more like the classic Monster destroid form)?
And how is the GERWALK form able to do Ground Effect with its wings being the legs?
AVF Upgrade Candidates
in Movies and TV Series
Posted
Okay...
Making a lot of assumptions here...
Considering Valkyrie Driver's original lines on this thread, a VF upgrade to AVF standards.
And, we are given the examples of how Boeing is now manufacturing the F-15 & F/A-18 (both were McDonnall-Douglas products) in a way that is (debatable) better & more cost effective than the originals...
In the Macross continuum we do see a similar situation in Macross R with the Galaxy fleet's VF-19C/M25...
Now, the biggest question is do all the factory ships in the fleets construct items in the exact same way?
The answer seems to be, "no."
The VF-11D-Kai is (to the best of my understanding) a Fleet 37 exclusive, in similar fashion to the VF-19EF/M27 of the Frontier fleet.
Though the specifications might be transmitted for reproduction in another fleet, the receiving unit may not do everything exactly the same (even automotive plants making the same model have differences), hence (I believe) the /M##.
Another unknown is how does a fleet produce equipment?
The easiest answer is a factory ship, though that is more a "where" than a "how."
I would assume that there is some CADAM (Computer Aided Design And Manufacture) system aboard, though how it works is the question.
Assuming that the ship has a foundry (for raw materials to be made into alloys), machining (either to shape the materials by computer-guided milling/shaping-equipment, or 3D printing) & assembly areas.
Though, are these areas set-up for individual builds, or in a series for mass production (or does it make a micro-factory ship for dedicated production)?
Now, going with the Boeing F-15/F-18 production (similar to the General Galaxy VF-19C/M25).
They don't have the original facilities to make the crafts of the original, so they also make design changes to the final product specifications (the F/A-18E has 1/3 less frame members than the C series, due to an internal structure redesign), then build/retool a factory line that can produce said.
Taking note, a fleet could do similar to the VF-11C for AVF specifications. Besides lowering the amount of material for the same performance, they might do as Mr. Douglas did with the DC-3/C-47 (use a grade better material than the design calls for. It didn't save weight but did make for a stronger frame).
With the specifications being recalculated, the modifications to facilitate the FF-2099A/FF-3600J turbines of the VF-16, a fighter-scale PPBS & active stealth system can be done (as seen in the C-Interceptor, D-Kai & MAXL series).
With what I can calculate, this proposed VF-11CX version would be on par with the VF-171, and would be easier to maintain than (do to the fact many crews would know how to work on a VF-11).
Though, like the VF-1-X, not much more can be done after these modifications, least not without extreme re-design.
On Valkyrie Driver's original suggestion of using the VF-0 framework, the concept was (for the most part) proven.
The VF-0(A)Kai is (mostly) a VF-25 in a different airframe, only systems missing are an EX-Gear cockpit, ISC/IVCS equipment & a fighter-scale PPBS.
Sure the L.A.I. round-table did not provide them in the VF-0(A)Kai, & I would not have placed them in a one-off racing unit that is piloted by a "crash" king either (& special operations can make those modification at their expense).
Though, for a fleet fighter for mass production, a VF-0X (as I would designate it) should have that equipment standard.