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gingaio

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Posts posted by gingaio

    The Watchmen

    in Anime or Science Fiction

    Posted · Edited by gingaio

    Who also eats most of his victims, just thought I would get that fact out there. Remember the part where he cut open the secret agents head and cut out and ate his brains while he was still alive. I was horrified by that act, regardless of the fact that the victim supposedly 'deserved it'. There you go....

    And he was also joking the whole time. And after eating the man's brains, he and Clarice fly off together. How romantic.

    Being from a comic book, by its own nature, a lot of the violence is stylised and unrealistic. People don't pick up other people and throw them neatly though plate glass windows. People don't punch holes in walls like that either (not without breaking every bone in their fist anyway.) Even the part in the film where the meat cleaver was pounded into the rapist/killers head, the killer just closed his eyes and died at that point, in the real world things would be much more unpleasant. And what about when the prisoners arms were sawn off, he just laid down and died instead of thrashing around bleeding to death with blood going EVERYWHERE as it would in the real world.

    And, just to widen the field, look at the character of Alex in A Clockwork Orange. A killer and a rapist and still one of the most sympathetic characters in the book/film. Actually, he would be the most similar anti-hero to Rorschach.

    To say that violence in a comic is unreal just because it's a comic is a faulty premise, I think. You can arbitrarily say the same thing about books, movies, documentaries (which also operate through filters). My point was that if you compare Silence of the Lambs/Hannibal to Watchmen, then you're comparing novels with a romanticized hero to a comic book about heroes who are dysfunctional and insistently unromanticized. Two different genres, essentially (different media notwithstanding).

    I mean, the whole point of Watchmen was to deconstruct the comic hero myth, to tear it down, character by character. The Lecter stories were about reenvisioning the flawed hero in a contemporary setting.

    Your examples (hole in the wall, arm sawed off....I can't remember if that was a brick wall). A friend of mine once punched a hole in the wall of his house without injuring his hand. As far as the arm sawed off, wasn't he already dead? Anyway, those are just details. The point is what purpose those details serve. Too often in the Lecter books, especially in the example you cited above, the gore is used as a launchpad for Lecter's humor and witticisms. And he--the witty, charming man--gets the girl in the end, too.

    The violence, as "unrealistic" as it may be in Watchmen, is never glamorized or made light of or used for the purpose of celebrating a central character. The atrocity committed at the end is one that reveals just how compromised, imperfect, and criminal all of the heroes are.

    And you thought Alex from Clockwork Orange was sympathetic? He was interesting as hell, but sympathetic? The character was a sadist brute with nary a redeeming quality. And in the movie, he was Kubrick's poster boy for the corruption of society....on all levels. It was a cautionary tale, not a heroic one.

    Again, I think the whole anti-hero label (which connotes heroism, but flawed) is completely overused and misused these days.

    The Watchmen

    in Anime or Science Fiction

    Posted · Edited by gingaio

    Eugimon wrote:

    I guess it all depends on what you mean by unnecessarily as there are numerous upon numerous instances of wolverine killing people that he had already incapacitated or otherwise detained. The problem with wolverine is there's so many depictions of him

    Which is why I specified the Claremont era (in the 80s).

    Personally, I don't see the difference. Rorschach IS wolverine, distilled down without the superhero spandex wearing silliness. They both put their own moral code above anyone else's.

    Funny. I distinctly remember Wolverine making another long Claremont-esque speech in X-Men #3 (the newer series) about how he couldn't kill Magneto because he has to "do the right thing, no matter how much it hurts."

    If that's Rorschach, I'm Tina Fey.

    Rorscach's "moral code," as you say, involves sending innocent cops and petty criminals to the morgue or the hospital and abusing old washed-up villains long retired. If you've got examples of Wolverine doing the same, I'd be more inclined to buy your argument.

    The Watchmen

    in Anime or Science Fiction

    Posted

    No, he's more like the annoying uncle that you never talk to cause if you do, no matter what you say, you will annoy him and set him off into a murderous rampage. (We all have uncles like that, or is it just me?)

    Seriously though, if Rorschach was a child rapist and/or killer it certainly would be much more difficult for people to see him as some sort of hero.

    And once again, there would be LOTS of people who would like to shoot the local constabulary in the chest with a grappling hook. Some people call them pigs for a reason. (Not me generally, but there have been times......)

    Taksraven

    I admit I was being sarcastic with the child molestation allegation (sort of) in regards to this sexually dysfunctional "hero" (for god's sake, he's using pieces of a woman's dress as his mask: "put the lotion in the f'ing basket" anyone...?).

    It's not "if" Rorschach is a killer. He is. And we're shown that he's just as liable to kill a petty thief as he is a murderer. Which is what some might consider Draconian. Or Old Testament. Or whatever.

    There's a world of difference between getting the urge every once in a while to let the neighborhood cop have it, and creating a "hero" out of a character who embodies our worst, darkest, and most repulsive instincts.

    Rorschach is like a childhood fantasy/avenger gone wrong.

    The Watchmen

    in Anime or Science Fiction

    Posted

    That describes Wolverine to a T and yet he's a cartoon character that kids worldwide adore and put on their lunch box... :huh:

    Well, if you want to be specific, Wolverine (at least from what I remember during the Claremont era), was a reformed brute who learned not to kill unnecessarily and to submit to Xavier's code. Not to mention he was always a stud with the ladies. And his invulnerable healing factor, Adamantium bones, etc. were all symbolic of a type of physical idealization.

    Rorschach is the creepy uncle with the Chevy Mailbu and a bag of lollipops on the seat next to him, cruising the junior high schools when he's not shooting cops in the chest with a grappling hook.

    The Watchmen

    in Anime or Science Fiction

    Posted

    Loner wrote:

    Well, maybe Moore shouldn't have made Rorschach so f'ing awesome.

    Depends on what you define as f'ing awesome, I guess.

    Gubaba wrote:

    Besides he made Rorschach ugly, unhygenic, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Not exactly the kind of "hero" most people would gravitate towards, and definitely not the kind most people would idealize.

    Exactly. Not to mention being saddled with "mother" issues and homicidal rage. I just read an essay in an academic journal that reasoned that Rorschach was the most sympathetic character to the hardcore fans because he was the most like them--outcast, reject, etc. versus the physically idealized Dr. Manhattan and Veidt. Anyway, not exactly a flattering thesis.

    The analogy to Travis Bickle I get because that was another character not meant to be seen as an attractive "anti-hero" (a term used so loosely these days it can cover anyone from Batman to Justin Timberlake). In fact, Scorcese dealt with issues similar to Alan Moore's re: Goodfellas. Here's a film that's about how wasteful and destructive the mob lifestyle ultimately is, he reasoned, and yet, people thought it was the coolest thing in the world.

    Taksraven wrote:

    These characters do the things that many people feel that they would like to do. (I think that most, however, if put in the same situation would not emulate their anti-heroes, however.) It also extends into real life with things like people wearing Charles Manson T-Shirts and others purchasing the artworks of John Wayne Gacey. You can be that even in Jack the Rippers day there were those who did not care about his antics since he was murdering prostitutes.

    What is funny is that I do remember reading an interview with Alan Moore around the time that From Hell was being made into a film. He was criticising the latest Hannibal Lecter book, calling it a "pile of wank" and observing that serial killers are rarely, if ever, people who are geniuses like Lecter is supposed to be.

    I always figured the majority of people who wore those serial killer shirts to be poser counter-culturalists in search of an authentic ideology. The Jack the Ripper thing is about morality/class and a whole other can of worms.

    And the comparison to Hannibal Lecter is apples and oranges--Lecter is portrayed as a charming, erudite man who always outwits his dunderheaded opposition in the end. He's a romanticized figure, a Byronic hero...like Count Dracula or something out of a Bronte novel.

    Compare this to what Gubaba described above. Violence in Moore's comic book is not portrayed in a glamorous or funny fashion (compare the bits of humor in Silence of the Lambs to the grisly acts of violence perpetrated by the Comedian).

    The Watchmen

    in Anime or Science Fiction

    Posted · Edited by gingaio

    I loved Rosarch in the comic....I loved him even more in the movie. They really did justice to his character. I've always felt that he was the hero that everyone feels the most attachment to. As a person, he was the least "screwed up" next to Doc Manhattan.

    One of Alan Moore's longstanding laments was precisely this reaction of the fans--that the majority of them identified most with Rorschach, the moral absolutist ultra right-winger with the goofy face.

    That he bears more than a passing resemblance to Alfred E. Neuman has got to be some kind of an in-joke, or a reference at least to the oversimplified nature of his moral barometer.

    Personally, I found him to be one of the creepier (in the sexually repressed, manically violent sense) characters in the comic, which is saying a lot.

    Anyway, from dailygazette.com:

    “Rorschach is clearly the most compelling character in the book in many ways,” said Matthew Costello, a professor of political science at St. Xavier University in Chicago and a comic book aficionado. “Alan Moore has said on a couple of occasions that Rorschach is a psychotic killer, and he doesn’t understand why everybody likes him so much. Yet Rorschach is clearly the character he gives depth to.

    Official Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.2

    in Hall Of The Super Topics

    Posted

    Yep, that sums it up really well. Collecting toys is supposed to be fun. Certain people take their toys way too seriously. However I do believe the thread's subtitle was meant to be sarcastic. Here is how they deal with complainers at toyboxdx. Talk about OT ^_^

    If that TBDX thread had made it to 20 or however many pages this thread has included/will include, rest assured that it would be pages devoted to the finer points of charred cow meat.

    The constant whining here, over an as yet to be materialized toy, and whether it's against Yamato or Bandai, is amusing, too, but in a more depressingly absurdist Beckettian manner.

    Carry on, gentlemen!

    Official Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.2

    in Hall Of The Super Topics

    Posted · Edited by gingaio

    Also, I would add that people are now talking excitedly about the Frontier valks not because they're "forgiving of Bandai's sins," but because for the first time in quite some time, people now have an alternative to Yamato as far as new Macross toys.

    This place has been a Yamato fanatic haven partly because Yamato's been the only game in town. Now, people who prefer something other than what Yamato has to offer have a choice. Hence the excitement. Hence the unsubstantiated praise and equally unsubstantiated detractions (toy hasn't come out yet, folks). Hence the ongoing Biggie vs. Tupac vs. Yamato war.

    Official Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.2

    in Hall Of The Super Topics

    Posted · Edited by gingaio

    Your sentence above got me thinking.

    I think it’s true that if Yamato had put out something that looks like this, the outcry on Macrossworld would be far worse and we would have far more members stating they would not buy it.

    Is this a case of members giving Bandai more slack?

    If Yamato puts out something like this, then the collectors who've been waiting for Yamato to put out a sturdy toy will be happy.

    Given the perpetual hue and cry on this board, it's obvious that there are multiple strains of collectors with varying levels of expectations for sturdiness and accuracy, and that people tend to, generally speaking, favor one over the other.

    What I don't understand is why people need to think about this as the Bloods vs. the Crips. Or Biggie vs. Tupac. Or Cobra vs. GI Joe. Some people here seem intent on making sure that one company's products are perceived as superior to the other's, or vice-versa. That I don't get.

    "Cutting Bandai more slack" suggests that toy collectors care more about a label on a box than the toy inside. Speaking strictly for myself, I'm really not that big of a moron. If Yamato ever puts out a sturdy, non-delicate transformable toy, I'm there. Until then, I will pour my money into Bandai's coffers.

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