Jump to content

Hurin

Members
  • Posts

    2566
  • Joined

Posts posted by Hurin

  1. I have a vague memory which may put MIB in the 70s action. Didn't Ben follow his dead mother out to the forest where he met Richard?

    I think so. Not sure. That was so long ago. Guess it would be safe to assume that's MIB. Yet, I can't even remember at this point if Smokey can take the form of anyone who has died, or if their body actually has to be nearby (hence the need to bring Locke's body back to the island). Could have sworn that it was explicitly stated that the body had to be nearby. . . yet we've seen MIB impersonate Richard's wife (whose body isn't on the island).

    Also, and this is may be just my own odd theory, I think that Ben childhood flashback episode took place prior to the whole time-travel angle being introduced in a later season. So, I'm actually wondering if that is "in the same timeline/universe" as the timeline/universe that the "70s crew" inhabited. Part of me is still open to the possibility that when the "70s crew" went back in time, they also went back into a separate, alternate universe. Perhaps even separate altogether from any other we've seen (those others being the one where the island is destroyed and the original one where Oceanic flight crashed). But please don't anyone ask me to make any more sense than that. Because I can't. Because it confuses me just thinking about it.

  2. I did not intend to imply any linkage between the childbearing issue and any relative influence/presence of MIB or Jacob. I intended them as separate questions/issues. I was merely wondering what happed to the former, and asking if anyone remembered any details of the latter. Because both seem odd to me. Especially Jacob and Smokie being completely MIA during the whole 70s period (though, again, I may be forgetting stuff). The only thing that appears to be vaguely supernatural about the island during the 70s is the "energy" they're searching for. . . but other than the fence, there's not even oblique references to other crazy/supernatural stuff.

    Personally, I would have liked to have seen why the Dharma folks started drawing maps on the back of retractable doors, etc. too. But that's probably not going to happen at this point.

  3. I think it's clearly explained that his decision was a subjective one based on what happened to his own biological mother and his adoptive mother. He even tells Kate that it's still up to her.

    Whoah. . . not saying you're wrong. . . but sure didn't seem "clearly explained". . . I wonder if you're having fun with us. The only explanation was: "It's just a line of chalk on a wall, Kate." Which, btw, was classic.

    One plot-line that seems to be wholly abandoned and seems unlikely to ever to be explained: The whole "women die if they conceive on the island." That was such a huge part of the first few seasons. Now. . . nothing.

    Also, was there any direct evidence of Jacob and/or MIB interacting with the people on the island during the whole 70s era? Other than the others and their assumed link to them (though it seems like the Others under Ben were perhaps under MIB's influence as well), do Jacob and/or MIB even seem to be present at all during that timeframe?

  4. That's the thing though...he hesitated. Who's to say he won't make the same mistake twice.

    Yeah, I don't really know what he would have done had Desmond not pummeled him either.

    The thing with Ben, the thing that cracks me up, is that they constantly give you reason to think he may not be all bad. And just when you think there might be some good in him, he goes and does something completely evil yet again. Rinse, repeat.

    Last night, when my wife saying how Ben seemed to be less evil, I had to remind her of the whole: "Ben! You just killed everyone on that freighter!" Ben: "So?"

    That's a classic Ben moment that pretty much sums him up.

    (the freighter was filled with "innocents" at the time too, not just Widmore flunkies.)

    BTW, it seemed a bit silly for Widmore to be there, with only one escort. What was he looking for that he needed to be there himself?

  5. I'm only using them till people in Hawaii watch it. After that, it's fair game.

    I see Ben's self-preservation-mode kicking in. Smokey would have found them eventually so why delay the inevitable. And since Widmore showed up, Ben got his chance to kill him. I see Ben shooting Desmond just to ruin Penny's life. Whatever Ben does or is going to do, he's gonna do it just for himself. He'll probably kill MIB if it suited his interest.

    Though, remember that Ben did hesitate and looked like he might spare Penny once he realized that Penny had a kid.

  6. Ben saw what happened to Richard and his self preserving habits kicked back in. I think the offer for him to take over the duties on the island wasn't a serious point of conversation between the two. But we never really got to hear Ben's opinion on the whole blowing up the island thing since that was the cliff hanger.

    I actually got the impression he was trying to separate himself from as many people as possible and go out to meet Smokey because he wanted exactly what happened to happen (join up with Smokey again).

    Don't get me wrong. I've been sucked in by the manipulation just as much as anyone else in that the "distance" they've put between Ben and his earlier evil shenanigans (by way of the alternate timeline) has caused me to (despite myself) become somewhat fond of the character. I was sorta disappointed, though not surprised, when he immediately sold out Widmore.

    BTW, if Smokey wants the island destroyed, he must be happy with how the alternate timeline went, since the island is underwater. Which begs the question: Did he somehow manipulate that into happening? I can't recall any way in which he did so. But it's somewhat ironic (assuming that the nuclear blast is what somehow sunk the island -- which doesn't seem possible unless the island isn't really an island), that Jack is now both the one responsible for destroying/sinking the island in one timeline and yet its protector in the other.

    Edit: Do we really need the spoiler tags? Presumably, whoever is reading this thread knows that we're going to be discussing plot points. Sorry to anyone I've screwed by neglecting them!

  7. Locke/MIB did something strange at the very end of tonight's episode. If he "bought off" Ben by (again) promising Ben the island after he leaves, it's pretty stupid of him to tell Ben that he's now going to try to destroy the island altogether. That is, if he still wants Ben's enthusiastic help. He might think Ben would continue to serve him out of fear. But wouldn't it have made more sense for Locke to just refuse to tell Ben what he intends to do in order to keep Ben motivated to help him? If he destroys the island, he destroys Ben's reward.

    I wonder if Locke/MIB therefore has some ulterior motive for telling Ben he's going to destroy the island. Does he have something to gain by doing so (even if it isn't actually his intention) that is more valuable to him than Ben's enthusiastic, motivated help?

    Edit: I can't imagine it's a loyalty test. Since I don't think MIB/Locke is suffering under any illusions about Ben's loyalty. He knows that Ben is only helping him for his own selfish reasons (even if that's only survival).

  8. Jenius, for the love f'ing all that is holy. . .

    I said that some people had the wrong idea. They did.

    I said that we know they have the wrong idea because the writers pretty clearly put in some dialog to lead us in a certain direction. They did.

    I then said what that direction was. It has turned out to be correct and nobody seriously doubts it.

    Some people even posted to express gratitude for the clarification.

    You even agree with it now.

    Yet you f'ing fought with me about it for three f'ing pages. And continue to do so.

    Just STFU about it already. Nobody gives a poo what you think constitutes semantics. Especially as you unknowingly post evidence that you were engaging in it from the get-go.

    I actually tried to "make nice" a tiny bit there in my last post. But seriously. . . just STFU already.

    I'll stop if you will.

    Best,

    H

  9. I don't think he's looking to ditch his responsibility and foist it on someone else. Rather, I think Jacob realized that the MIB would eventually succeed in finding his "loophole" and achieving his explicitly stated goal of killing him (Jacob). So, he began searching for his successor in preparation for when (if?) that eventually indeed happened.

    Ding ding ding!

    Hehe, it's not like I was the only one thinking that. But it was pretty much word for word what Jacob said tonight. :lol:

  10. but I am definitely still looking forward to that moment where Jacob realizes that MIB is now living on the island as Smokey. Yes, we did see him rip out of the tunnel as Smokey, and that could definitely be considered his rebirth, but it's the Jacob/Smokey interaction I'm waiting for.

    I actually meant to mention this a long time ago. But it has always seemed funny to me how you seem(ed) to think that the next episode would pick up where the last one left off (back in distant non-main character flashback land). That's generally not how Lost works. exactly how many episodes did you expect them to spend following Jacob and his "family" and the immediate aftermath of his brother's transformation? Were you also expecting the episode after Richard's flashback episode to deal with his first few weeks as Jacob's spokesman? :lol:

    I had a longer post. . . but it all comes down to this. . .

    I can only hope that petulant battle helped make it crystal clear to everyone what's going on with MIB and what questions still linger.

    It was crystal clear to everyone but you the moment I made my post. Which, to address another one of your "points" above, is why I never quoted or addressed anyone else directly regarding this topic. But because you decided to start arguing semantics rather than acknowledge the substantive point of the post (writers say thing explicitly like that, multiple times, for a reason. . . . to "rule out" conclusions to which they don't want you to come) you ended up wasting our time for two or three pages with nonsensical arguments until, exhausted, you finally try to just agree with me without noticing the irony of doing so while just using different words that allow you to pretend that you weren't really wrong in the first place (again, semantics).

    Nobody ever said you were claiming to be a Lost guru. You were just confused, and then unwilling to admit that someone you disliked had a valid point. So you engaged in semantics and ridiculous argumentativeness for three pages for no other reason than stubbornness. Only to then try to claim that we've been saying the same thing all along. :rolleyes:

    Edit: Oh, and enough of this innocent act about how I'm misreading your tone or intent. Stop pretending like the last time I poked some mild, civil fun at one of your posts in this very thread, you didn't flip the f' out and fire a full (personal) broadside. Which, by the way, I happily ignored.

  11. Hmmmmm, you know what, looking back on that first post. . . okay, yeah. I'm now just convinced. You were actually more confused at the outset than you were willing to let on. Apparently, you didn't actually believe, at that point, that the MIB had been transformed into Smokie. Seeing his body, and Jacob mourning him, you did actually think he was dead. Why? Because you clearly state that you're looking forward to seeing MIB "reborn in some fashion" in the next episode. Are we to think that you were both thinking of him as "reborn as the smoke monster" (as you now put it) and yet still waiting for him to be "reborn in some other fashion" in the next episode? Why look forward to an event that has already happened (as you now admit)?

    So, wow, I guess this whole thread so far really has just been you being defensive about being confused and corrected (though not by name!) by someone you don't like. Man. . . what a long way to go, watching you careen about and bounce around all of these bizarre assertions and theory. . . all because you couldn't have just read my post to yourself and said: "Ah, I see what he's getting at. They make it pretty inescapable to conclude --at least at this point-- that the MIB isn't dead and that he was immediately transformed into the smoke monster. They don't want us thinking that the Smoke Monster is just using his appearance or that there's some other entity other than the MIB behind all this." That is, after all, the conclusion you now have reached. But, looking at your initial post, it's hard to see how that could possibly have been your initial understanding. So, we got page after page of you grasping at every possible straw (while producing them from your nether regions) because you just didn't want to admit (to yourself) that someone you happen to loathe had explained to you how you were confused.

    Normally, I'd consider it unseemly to assert such things and not take someone's denial at face value. But the problem is, I've seen you play coy too many times in the past. So, well, I don't trust you. And looking at your first few posts, the gradual "dawning upon you" that you were fundamentally confused from the outset (and just hiding it via attacks on me for engaging in "semantics") seems pretty inescapable. Though I'm sure you'll have something that is at once both illogical and yet deviously confusing to say in order to once again distract anyone from what seems readily apparent.

    The End

  12. Hurin you insist that everything was in the dialog and that everything was perfectly clear and that your argument was all based on the dialog. Unfortunately, that’s not the case. You can’t claim it’s wrong to talk about death and rebirth when the show itself has dialog talking about death and rebirth. Not only that, the show talks about death and rebirth in EXACTLY the context you said it was inappropriate. You can’t say “They can’t kill each other because the dialog makes it clear they can’t harm each other” when they frequently harm each other AND Jacob ends the physical life of MIB. You can’t stand out and cry because the dialog “makes it so obvious” and then say “well the dialog isn’t clear, that could be said about anything” when it directly refutes what you’ve been saying. Does the MIB exist in some form still? Yes, but I acknowledged that in my very first post in this conversation (butterfly).

    I’m more than happy to talk about MIB’s rebirth with the understanding that it has nothing to do with our original argument over your problems with semantics. Heck, you’ve attacked my post a million times now.. you know, the post where I say “I don’t get it” and attack me for not getting it. I’m assuming you’ll give me that he was reborn as the Smoke Monster. I wouldn’t argue (and haven’t) that he was reborn as Christian or Ekko’s brother but I do feel there is significance in his now long-lived (pun?) adoption of Locke’s form. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. As I’ve pointed out, the show seems to be hinting that there’s significance in MIB’s relationship with Locke but if it all ends up being about motivating Ben I certainly wouldn’t color myself embarrassed. If it was just to motivate Ben it’s going to be really hard not to think up a million ways MIB couldn’t have killed Jacob in an easier fashion. Does being able to think up ways the story could have been resolved more logically make me a bad viewer? Heck, maybe, but that wasn’t the impression I got in college. You’re also absolutely right, as more of the show unfolds I will change my theories based on the new information provided. This entire debate right now, about MIB coming back to life, may all be rendered moot tonight as the story may change completely and I may abandon this theory for a new one. In fact, if anyone has a good memory about stuff that I’ve forgotten, I would change my theory right now based on this “new to me” information. It’s a mystery show… doing that is part of what makes it fun and what makes arguing semantics so silly. I can’t even remember what my original season 1 theory was (I think I was a “purgatory” person).

    Jenius, well, first, I'll note that you ignore the actual substance of what I said. Note how you say Jacob's mourning means x. . . I demonstrate that it does not necessarily mean x and that it could mean y or z. . . and your response is to come back with a bunch of unrelated nonsense and unfair generalizations.

    Also, quickly, you keep dishonestly saying that your first post in this conversation acknowledged a transformation in lieu of actual death (the butterfly). This is just not true. This is not the first time you've tried to somehow make it "out of bounds" to consider the post predating mine which played some part (along with others outright saying that the MIB was dead and Smokie had taken his form) in me feeling that some clarification was necessary (to which you then took so much offense). Why are you so hell-bent on pretending that you were saying something from the beginning when you weren't and were, as a matter of fact, actually one of those folks who were sorta contributing to the confusion (though not outright saying that you thought Smokie wasn't MIB). I'd note there, too, only for my own amusement, that you were at that point "looking forward" to seeing "MIB reborn" in the next episode. Apparently, contrary to what you're claiming now, you didn't then see the MIB's transformation into smokie as that rebirth (or didn't interpret that as a transformation?) and were continuing to wait to see how the MIB would "come back" from being dead. Now, oddly, you apparently do accept that the MIB turned into Smokie and that this does indeed constitute a "rebirth", since you just wrote: "I’m assuming you’ll give me that he was reborn as the Smoke Monster."

    But, back to the point. . . as usual, you are incapable of recognizing nuance and/or meaning behind carefully chosen words. You seem to just think they mean what you want them to mean. I never said that people can't talk about death and rebirth at all. I merely said that those who are claiming that the MIB died (and remained dead) and that Smokie was then able to take his form are mistaken and not paying attention to the (repeated) dialog about the cave not killing anyone and instead transforming them (into Smokie). Your personal distaste for me, together with your peripheral involvement in the discussion to that point caused you to then pick a fight and make the lame assertion that my point was merely about semantics. This has never been about semantics since the result of such a clarification results in a fundamental change (on the part of some) in the perception of the nature of the chief antagonist of the series. The dialog I cited (along with so much else!) rules out the erroneous conclusion to which some were arriving.

    In other words, I was making the argument that they're being careful so that we don't think the MIB has died. You then made it about semantics by coming back and wanting to debate the meaning of those words and asserting that you can use those words according to how you understand them if you want (even though they were clearly leading to confusion). So, guess what, buddy, that's you getting hung up on semantics, not me. I was hung up on people coming to a conclusion (that the MIB was dead and that he wasn't Smokie) that was pretty effectively ruled out via the writing. You were hung up on trying to prove to me that you could say "die" or "dead" if you wanted to. . . that is being hung up on semantics. So just STFU about "semantics" already. The only one obsessed with semantics here is you.

    Likewise with the part about how somehow I am saying that Jacob and MIB can't kill each other. You seem to think I'm basing that off of one line in just the last show. Nope. Sorry. Moving on. . . though, again, if they can kill each other, then this is indeed a very strange show and pretty much nothing we've been told over the last season or two seems valid. So are you seriously making that argument? And if so, do you have any reason to believe it other than your need for it to be true so that things you've said in the past (some of which you've already backed away from) will seem less silly?

    Oh, finally, some dialog is clear. . . and some dialog isn't. And some dialog is more directly applicable to simple concepts than others. And some complex concepts aren't well-served by simple dialog. In other words, as usual, you want to paint a very simple (even simplistic) dichotomy about how I can't say x if I once said y. Such arguments are asinine and, as you've done so many times before, demonstrate a total lack of regard for context. It's pretty silly to say that all dialog is equally clear and that I can't therefore put more emphasis on one line over another. In other words, taking a description of something and then asserting that it fits into your theory in x way is very different than gleaning facts from directly delivered dialog. Again, everything is always painfully black and white with you. You're always trying to lock people into these binary arguments (if there's a body, then he's dead!). . . things aren't that simple. Let me spell it out for you: There's a world of difference between saying that it's unlikely that the MIB would be dead because two different characters said the cave of light would not kill him (together with the fact that the character is apparently immediately transformed and very active in the show!). . . and saying that the cave was described as containing "life, death, rebirth". . . and then going on to say that this necessarily means x, y, or z.

    If you want to argue that there's a larger significance to MIB taking Locke's form, fine. Have at it. So, what's the significance? It just seems that you've finally just come to rest, exhausted, on this one bit of safe ground without any real point to make. And of course, you only stumbled upon this position while trying to find (retroactively) some basis for other things you had said that had been called into question. So, congratulations, in all that rhetorical careening about, you've finally stumbled upon the statement that "maybe" there's more to the MIB taking Locke's form than we currently know. Thanks for that!

  13. I'm definitely a bit confused by that Ben stuff. But maybe here's a possible solution:

    Perhaps the timeline where the island is not destroyed does not actually include the Oceanics shenanigans in the 70s. Maybe the Dharma initiative did it all on their own, initiated the incident, paved it over, and then Ben was still around to gas them all later. The Oceanics then crash on the island, but there's no other "tie" between this timeline/universe and the one where they affect its past.

    Then the other timeline where the island is destroyed does include the Oceanic shenanigans. . . and Ben is evacuated due to the gunshot delivered by Sayid? I can't remember though, did the Others keep Ben after Kate brought him to them to be saved? The recent scene between Ben and his aged father probably contains something that causes this theory to crumble. . . I don't remember much about it.

    But, I'm probably missing something. So, yeah, probably just writer's error (or writers assuming we won't notice). . .

    Best,

    H

  14. Okay, here's a question/theory not tied to any agenda. ;)

    The island was nuked in the 70s, correct? Which created a new timeline. . . and gradually, we've seen that all the Oceanic survivors have different lives. Some very differnt. Some only subtly so. Not because they didn't crash on the island. . . but apparently because Jacob wasn't visiting them during pivotal moments in their lives and influencing their lives.

    Yet, here's the inexplicable part. . . they all still ended up on that Oceanic flight even in the "non-Jacob-influenced" timeline. This time, the plane didn't go down, and the island was shown to be blown up and underwater as they flew over it. But the question remains. . .

    If Jacob wasn't the force that brought them all together on that Oceanic flight in the first place (the original timeline), who was? Because that force still seems to be at play in the "no island" timeline.

    or

    If Jacob
    was
    the force that brought them all together on the first timeline's flight. . . who is responsible for bringing them all together on that "island is gone" timeline's Oceanic flight. For what purpose if not to crash on the island?

    Star Trek (and other sci-fi) would say that a timeline is like a river, with currents, eddies, backwash (etc.). You might paddle your way out of the current/stream for a little while, but it will eventually grab you and pull you back into "where it's supposed to go." Hence, Locke manages to be a paraplegic in both universes, but via very different means. Yet. . . this isn't Star Trek.

    If those questions have any merit, I wonder if the latter one will tie into the "consciousness transferance" theory I posited a few pages back. Like, maybe the people in both timelines needed to be in close proximity (though in different timelines/universes) for the consciousness transferrance to take place?

    Heh. . . or something.

  15. I'm going to duck in here real quick, the actor that plays jacob answered some of these questions and hulu has a clip of it:

    http://www.hulu.com/collections/453/149379

    Hopefully that lays to rest any claims that the MIB is dead (as normally understood) and that the smoke monster is a separate entity that has taken his form. Though I'm sure we'll still hear about how "becoming incorporal" must (somehow) entail dying (for some reason) and how it was therefore perfectly fine to call him "dead" even though doing so could (and apparently did) mislead casual viewers. People can use their own terminology as much as they want. But it's a shame when it can lead to confusion. . . like people believing that the MIB is not the smoke monster.

    To be fair though, actors aren't always the most informed about the underlying plot of a project. Some of them are just collecting a paycheck. ;)

  16. Well, I guess EXO is going to have to ban me because there's just too much here to leave alone. . . though I'll remain civil.

    Jacob and MIB can't hurt each other... they can however hurt each other.

    Arguing that they can kill/hurt each other for short-term gain (winning this argument) at the expense of one of the prime "rules" of the plot that makes the entire thing make sense seems a bit odd. If they can kill each other, it renders about 80% of the last two seasons pointless. If not the whole show. There's no show if Jacob could have just pushed MIB off a cliff a thousand years ago (or vice-versa). Further, the ability to give each other "boo boos" via fisticuffs may not actually fall within the confines of "harming" or "killing" each other.

    "What's down there."

    "Life, death, and rebirth." Man... does that make it okay to say someone pushed down there would go in alive, die, and be reborn?

    "If I go down there, will I die?"

    "It's worse than death." Like maybe you die and are then stuck to exist forever as a tortured soul?

    This contradicts your argument that the MIB is repeatedly dying and being reborn whenever he takes someone's shape. Is he a tortured soul in purgatory? If so, how can he "keep coming back" from death? He's already dead. More to the point, you can't say someone is dead or killed if they are immediatly revived. And there were people saying MIB was dead and that Smokey had taken his form (more on this after the next paragraph).

    It should also be pointed out that saying something is filled with "life, death, and rebirth" doesn't mean that it's a mechanism that will kill, revive, and give you the body of someone else. Hell, people describe compost heaps as being about "life, death, and rebirth". . . or the serengeti plain. Neither of which will kill and then ressurect you as your dead uncle. You seem to be tying this in with your argument (which you made from necessity rather than because that's where the "facts" lead) that the MIB has died repeatedly because that's what he needs to do to take the shape of others. Again, this is based on nothing (so far) that we've actually seen or been told.

    But again, this all obscures the point. Before this all got started when you made yet another (unfortunately, this time, successful) attempt to make this a personal fight between the two of us, there were folks saying that the MIB died altogether. . . and that Smokey was a separate entity that was then able to take MIB's form. What I wrote, which you dismissed as semantics (others did not) attempted to clarify that the MIB was not dead and that the MIB is Smokey (whether you want to get hung up on whether he was killed first, then revived, whatever. . . that's your hang-up). So when I say that the cave didn't kill MIB, that's because it didn't. Because he's still alive, and can now turn himself into the smoke monster, and take the shape of others. The rest of this was just a result of your (repeatedly demonstrated) need to makes things personal whenever I post anything you don't like. Note that my initial post was addressing the posts of several people (not just you), didn't call anyone out by name, and that nobody else had a problem with it (some even acknowledged and were pleasant about the added/clarifying information). I wonder why you responded so differently.

    Also note, the episode ends with Jacob saying goodbye emotionally... not typically something you do to someone who is alive and well.

    You (knowingly?) neglect to take into account that, at that point, Jacob doesn't actually know what happened to his brother. For all he knows, his mother lied, and he did kill his brother (finding MIB's body may have misled him to this conclusion). Or, he knows that he has done something terrible to his brother and is expressing remorse/regret now that he has calmed down. Either way, what you describe above doesn't necessarily mean what you assert.

    So now, I'm still curious, if the only reason MIB appears as Locke is to give Ben the motivation to kill Jacob, why has the show had "why Locke" dialog not answered with a simple "it was the only way to convince Ben?" I mean, I'm okay with it really being just to convince Ben but it seems like kind of bad writing to say "here are reasons why MIB picked Locke" and have that not be the really substantial reason why it happened.

    Jack does actually ask directly "Why Locke?" The MIB (who, admittedly, we trust at our peril) says: "Because he was stupid enough to believe." But think about who told Locke to go and bring everyone back to the island. It was Christian (who at this point, we should probably believe was the MIB in disguise). But this all just brings us further "off the rails". . . the issue was that someone (who could that be?) had argued that the "loophole" was constitued by Locke changing form, which "somehow" changed the rules and allowed the MIB to leave the island. I'm still not seeing anything above to validate that claim. Instead, I'm just seeing new, diversionary arguments that the "loophole" being only about (Ben) killing Jacob is "bad writing." All I can tell you is that a "loophole" was only ever mentioned in one episode. That episode began with them talking about killing Jacob, and the need for a "loophole" to allow it. It ends with Jacob dying moments after Jacob saying that the MIB had "found his loophole". . . and the loophole has not been mentioned before or since.

    So, well, again, feel free to spin more theories that contradict what we've been told and is commonly accepted. Thanks to the twisting nature of the show's plot and its penchant for "gotcha" twists, you may in fact end up falling ass-backwards into being right in some fashion (as I've said before). But I'm always struck how these theories take on a "retroactive" feel to them. Like you work your way backwards into them only after you say something based on a faulty memory (perfect example: You had to go looking for ways to say that the MIB had died repeatedly only because you had said the writers weren't following their own rules and that the MIB "kept coming back" from death. . . and this shape-shifting was the only straw you could grasp when it was pointed out that the MIB hadn't died other times --if ever--). Eventually, you find far-fetched interpretations or minutia with which you go back and buttress whatever you've said. But pretty much, this just leads you to then ask why all these square pegs aren't fitting into the round hole. . . the answer is that you're starting off assuming/asserting that the hole must be round in the first place. And the only reason you're doing that is because you're unwilling to admit that you might have been mistaken when you off-handedly mentioned that the hole was round at the outset.

    Okay, >EXO<, you can ban me now. Clearly I can't help myself. And I've broken my own promise. :(

  17. At any rate, this makes sense and I'm glad someone took the time to explain it.

    I have to admit I'm not that into the show anymore so I wasn't picking up on a lot of the clue's, or whacks over the head, the writers have included regarding the pseudo-science/magic stuffs in the show.

    Thanks?

    I've been remiss in not actually directly responding to a very nice post!

    You're very welcome. I'm glad, given the circumstances, that you found my post to be substantive and helpful in clearing up misunderstandings rather than just engaging in "semantics."

    As I think you'll find, you really only need to watch each episode once. And you don't need to be a rocket scientist or "study" the show just to ask yourself, "I wonder why they're being so careful to have the characters say these things so directly, and repeatedly." Which, of course, was my only point before things went horribly awry.

    Take Care,

    H

  18. :lol: You're pretty amusing to read, but can't seem to take what you dish out. You spent 3 days on that post? :rolleyes:

    I used to think you were semi-rational. Not sure what happened to you when you went away to your own site, or what happened to it there. plonk

    Actually, I never "went away" to my own site, but was here and there simultaneously. But was then asked to come here and be the admin for this site. At which point, my partner and I (who was also co-opted by MW) decided to just shut down MN as we always promised to do if we lost enthusiasm for it. But, as usual you distort and dishonestly frame information in order to take a silly cheap shot. Bravo. You must be so proud of yourself.

    Why am I not an admin anymore? Because I resigned and stopped visiting hardly at all when I noticed that there were more and more people like you (and Jenius) around and fewer jsarclights, ewilens, or even bsu legatos (who pretty much disagreed with anything I ever wrote). At that point, it's time to go. And I actually regret even making the limited number of posts that I've made recently. There's no point. And discussions like this, with folks like you (and your petty little vendettas) are a waste of time. I had that time to spare in my mid-twenties. Not so much any more in my thirties.

    That aside, though, you know I can't possibly take anything you say seriously given what I've seen you actually claim/write in the past. So I see no reason to start doing so now. I mean, with everything you write, you either intentionally get things wrong (see a page or two back), or are actually incapable of comprehending what you read (see immediately above where you claim I spent three days straight writing a post and then oh-so-smugly roll your eyes at something I clearly didn't mean literally. . . since I was careful to say "off-and-on". . . which, guess what, means something).

    Anways, feel free to say whatever you want without fear of "wall of text" replies. . . I can't claim that I won't see it since we both know I'll probably be checking in a few more times. But I can assure you that I won't be responding. Because before I decided Jenius wasn't worth an ounce of effort, I had already perfected that calculation while reading what you laughably pass off as reasoned opinion. I mean, I can't seriously read your opinion on something without thinking that the only truly reasonable explanation for why you think these things is that you must be things that I can't actually say here. I've had patience and argued (at length, some would say ad nausedum) with plenty of reasonable, honest people here. . . but with you, there's just no recourse but to surrender to. . . well, I can't really finish that sentence.

    So, there you have it. You win. Enjoy MW.

  19. Nice. All the dark blue buttons just improved (no white corner fringes now) and the green highlight of the active tab up top just turned to blue.

    Someone's getting everything just right. ;)

    I really can't say how relieved I am that someone (Shawn? Or one of the minions) is taking the time to dial everything in. After all the time I put into the original skin (together with the kite buttons by jsarclight), I was concerned that it was going to just get jettisoned during the transition.

    I don't come here often anymore. But I was still a bit saddened before I saw the skin make a comeback this morning, and all the tweaks happening throughout the day.

    THANKS!!! The skin is obviously in good hands. :)

    H

  20. holy hell, did I start this whole mess?

    At any rate, this makes sense and I'm glad someone took the time to explain it.

    I have to admit I'm not that into the show anymore so I wasn't picking up on a lot of the clue's, or whacks over the head, the writers have included regarding the pseudo-science/magic stuffs in the show.

    Thanks?

    I'm pretty sure none of this is your fault. Hurin just had a bone to pick. I told him it was perfectly acceptable to think of MIB's death as a transformation and made a butterfly analogy. He then summarized his argument by saying I never considered that maybe the MIB was like a butterfly, shedding his one existence to enjoy another. So... yeah... whatevs.

    If MIB is just taking the appearance of Locke, and has not been reborn in some way as Locke, then what does it matter that Locke was a candidate? I thought MIB just had to convince someone to kill Jacob?

    EDIT - I reread this and it's pretty poorly worded. I realize he has not been reborn "as Locke" but rather as something Locke-inspired.

    Wall of text. . . engage. . . (this is what happens when you have three days --off-and-on-- to cogitate on a single post)

    You're perpetuating at least two or three bizarre, out-of-the-blue theories based on nothing from the actual show (except, of course, very apparent confusion on your part and bizarre interpretation of some pretty clearly written dialog and scenes). . . indeed, your contentions actually contradict what the writers have put into the dialog and scenes for an explicit purpose. But, to make it worse, all these contentions on your part seem to emerge as a consequence of that first bizarre assertion you made that you're unwilling to just acknowledge and "walk back" in the face of more reasonable points of view based on the dialog as it actually appears in the show. Indeed, rather than just admit a mistake, you Instead you go forward with that mistake as the foundation for even stranger assertions with only hope that future, yet-unseen episodes will show you what you oddly assume now needs to have happened (eg., MIB being "reborn" in other forms instead of just changing his appearance, ya know, like he does when he turns into freakin' smoke!)

    But first. . .

    Man, it must *really* annoy you that someone found my post to be helpful and explanatory. So much so that you felt the need to respond to him in my stead and then mischaracterize the entire affair. To say nothing of how shabby it is to do so while you knew I couldn't intervene. But, now that I have the chance: Note that first (before you ever mentioned a "butterfly"), you said that the MIB had been killed and was dead. You then, in the same post, went on to demonstrate your further confusion (asking why the MIB can "keep coming back" from death multiple times). Only later did you bring up your "butterfly analogy". . . which seemed to demonstrate that your cluelessness quotient had been decreased somewhat by the discussion at that later point. Yet you still found it necessary to continue pretending as though you hadn't been confused, and in doing so, you found it necessary to keep belittling the very clarification your confusion/carelessness/misinformation made necessary.

    So. . . if you're going to reply to someone who's actually directly addressing me and thanking me for the explanation that you seemed to have such a problem with (because it explained away misconceptions you were perpetuating), at least do me the courtesy of not being blatantly dishonest in summarizing this affair. It's funny how you chose to skip over the entire beginning where your demonstrable (initial) confusion was most apparent.

    Looking back on this thread, it's a great example where you seem to have a penchant for asking obvious, ill-informed, and/or silly questions just to perpetuate discussion for discussion's sake. I mean, looking back, nearly every question you've asked either has a readily apparent answer (to those paying attention), or was downright silly at the outset. And any time you actually offer what you think is accurate information, it always seems to have some fundamental fact wrong or ill-founded assumption underpinning it.

    Here's one final example: Even while exposing the fact that you're confused about one topic (what happened to the MIB and whether the MIB has actually died before or since), you expose that you're fundamentally confused about yet another one: The "loophole." You say: "black smokey monster transformed itself into (un)Locke as the rules seemed to have changed at that point making it capable of leaving the island... the "loophole" as Jacob put it."

    Now, those paying attention immediately say: WTF? That's not the "loophole." The "loophole" refers to the ability to actually kill Jacob. The "loophole" isn't directly about leaving the island, and need not have anything to do with taking someone else's form (and how those two things --shape-shifting and leaving the island-- actually became related in your mind is a total mystery as well). How do we know that the loophole is about killing Jacob? . . because the writers do everything in their power to make this linkage pretty darn clear via dialog at the very beginning of the episode in which Jacob freakin' dies as a result of the "loophole" concept introduced in that very episode.:

    Setting: In front of the ruined statue -- Jacob and MIB gazing out at a ship on the ocean.

    MIB: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you.

    Jabob: yes.

    MIB: One of these days, sooner or later, I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

    Jacob: When you do, I'll be right here.

    Later in that same episode, as the MIB enters that designated "waiting place" (the statue) with Ben. . . Jacob says: "I see you found your loophole."

    Now, while other interpretations are perhaps possible (or will become possible with information provided in the next few episodes), it's pretty darn clear that the "loophole" is about getting around the rule that MIB can't kill Jacob himself. While exploiting this loophole and killing Jacob might indeed be a step towards MIB's longer-term goal of getting off the island, that's not nearly the same thing as saying that assuming Locke's form suddenly "changes the rules" and makes him able to get off the island, and then calling that the loophole itself as you did. That dialog pretty clearly explains the rule that the loophole will work around (inability to kill Jacob), and then we see the loophole put into effect at the end of the episode even as it is once again referred to as the "loophole." For the life of me, I can't imagine how your managed to come to your own conclusion. And, mind you, you won't be able to actually explain it using any actual dialog or provided explanations from the show itself.

    What always seems to happen is that you are shown to be confused about something basic. . . and then when someone points out your confusion, you start engaging in hypothetical questions or unsubstantiated arguments that are totally at odds with what we already know, and rarely rise above the nature of: "Why didn't the Hobbits just fly Eagles to Mordor." The answer: Becaue that's not the freakin' story we're being told. . . pay attention!

    To illustrate, you're now asking: Well if it was just about trying to kill Jacob, why didn't he just try to have anyone do it?

    The answer:

    First, because, had MIB done that and succeeded prior, that would make the current story we're enjoying sorta difficult to tell, now, wouldn't it? It is a fictional story after all and asking questions like that (like decrying how unrealistic it was for the ship to not break apart when it hit the statue and then asserting that there must be some signifigance to such a "miracle". . . sheesh) shows an astounding blind spot in your ability to understand the nature of storytelling, its techniques, and its conceits.

    Second, they actually address this, in that he did freakin' try to have others kill Jacob before he succeeded in having Ben do it. You yourself point this out even while simultaneously asking why he didn't try it. In other words, Ben was perhaps only the last successful one in a (perhaps) long line of potential "loopholes." Recall (as, miraculously, you seem to do) that, after the conversation on the beach related above, MIB attempts to do exactly what you ask why he didn't do: He attempts to have Richard kill Jacob. We know this takes place after the initial "loophole" conversation because the statue is in pieces when Richard confronts Jacob (the statue having been destroyed by the ship upon which Richard arrives).

    So, the signifigance of taking Locke's form and having Ben do it? Why not, as you ask, just appear as anyone and ask just anyone to kill jacob? Well, if you had been paying attention, you'd realize that it's all about motivation. He tried just sending in whoever he came across, but Jacob (as we saw with Richard) was able to stop them, dissuade them, and even turn them against the MIB. He (MIB) needed someone who hated Jacob and was therefore uncommonly motivated to kill him. It also didn't hurt that he (MIB) appeared to Ben as Ben's dead daughter and ordered him (Ben) to follow "Locke's" orders. And, finally, Ben had been manipulated into believing that there was indeed something very, very special about John Locke (whom he believed he was obeying). In other words, Ben was in a unique position to be manipulated by MIB and to be successful in actually killing Jacob.

    Of course, because you're not paying attention, you embarrass yourself. And because you embarrass yourself, you're unwilling to accept accurate information when it is presented to you. You instead start asking these silly questions and grasping at straws rather than just accept the dialog and the direction it's taking you. Yes, plot twists happen. And dialog can intentionally mislead. But they'll generally leave subtle clues that such a thing is on the way. You're not pointing to any such clues, you just pull things out of your butt in order to grasp at any means by which your odd conclusions might still be valid. It's fine to ask people to question their assumptions and preconceived notions. . . so long as you have some valid reason for doubting them yourself. But you never provide any such reasons. Case in point: How you're now arguing that every time the MIB takes the form of another person, he's somehow being reborn. You're doing this rather than admit that you were mistaken in stating that the MIB has repeatedly "come back" from death.

    Seriously, there's not one other person using the phrase "reborn" in describing/discussing MIB's shape-shifting or seriously arguing that each time the MIB has taken the form of someone else that he is dying and/or being reborn. And there is absolutely nothing in the show to make you or anyone else think that the MIB has to die himself and/or be "reborn" in order to take anyone's form. You're just going through these linguistic contortions in order to retroactively support a silly contention you found yourself needing to make rather than admitting that you were confused. So, now instead of what everyone else is talking about (MIB taking the form of those who have died (though not their actual bodies), you're asking about MIB's "rebirths" as other people. . . continuing to introduce square pegs and asking us how they fit into round holes that you've pulled out of nowhere because you're just unwilling to ever admit a mistake or that you were confused.

    Of course, none of this would be a problem if you weren't so fundamentally hostile and unwilling to ever admit a mistake and/or accept inconvenient facts/information without also making things personal (and yes, both times --one I ignored and this one-- you immediately made it about me and carrying out your petty little vendetta from years ago rather than the substance of what I was saying).

    So. . . since reasoning with you is fruitless and calling you names is forbidden (but fun!), I'm left with no recourse but to just ignore you. Say whatever you want. You and I both know, despite your public assertions to the contrary, who has been confused and dishonest here. And it wasn't me.

    I'm sure you'll come up with some subtle (or more overt) taunt that you hope will cause me to re-engage. But it won't work. You're clearly just not worth any effort whatsoever. I'm actually embarrassed as hell that I have spent the time to write so much above in reference to you or anything you've said. >EXO<, please, for the love of God, if I ever am stupid enough to reply directly to anything that comes out of Jenius's pie-hole again, just please perma-ban me.

  21. Am I sorta dumb... or did the writers have him leave behind a CORPSE?? Again, you're going back to semantics. He's not dead... he's "transformed". Yes, he transformed from a physical entity, with a body, to a spirit. Some people call that "dying." How is your argument over whether or not "dead" is the right term NOT a matter of semantics?

    Your focus on the corpse is just. . . bizarre.

    Has it occurred to you that, in the context of this show, the corpse is perhaps not evidence of him dying, but instead evidence of him shedding his corporal form because he no longer needed it? Did it occur to you that the body was found in a tree quite some time and quite some distance from the cave? In which case, is the body evidence that Jacob "killed" him or that he is "dead" or just evidence that he's been transformed and no longer needed it? Indeed, perhaps he no longer wanted it. If the latter, the words "killed" and "dead" have no real meaning there. . . and they are not accurate descriptors of the what happened to him. Not in any way. Which, now pay attention. . . is probably the f'ing reason multiple characters told you that the light wouldn't kill someone put in there.

    Again, that's not semantics. . . that's clarifying your pre/misconceptions. Because the way you describe it, in the context of the show, would not accurately describe to someone what actually happened in that episode.

    Ask yourself this: If the body being left behind makes you want to say that Jacob killed the MIB. . . would you describe what happened in this episode to a friend as: "Jacob killed the MIB. The MIB is dead." Of course not. That's not nearly a description of what happened. And anyone familiar with the show would say: "I thought Jacob couldn't kill the MIB". . . and/or someone familiar with the dialog of that episode would say: "Didn't both Jacob and the mother say that the light wouldn't kill him but would instead transform them?" Which, of course, was all I said as well. . . which you deemed inappropriate.

    And, I'll point out that I brought it up in the larger context of some people claiming that the MIB truly died (in body, spirit, everything), and that the smoke monster assumed his form. . . and that the MIB is therefore not the smoke monster. A view I'm still not totally convinced you weren't also holding before you started to actually think things through via this discussion.

    Times MIB will come back from "dead" to be "living" (although, maybe 'living' is the wrong term):

    1) When Jacob "transformed" him from a person with a body to a corpse and a black smokey monster.

    2) When the black smokey monster transformed itself into (un)Locke as the rules seemed to have changed at that point making it capable of leaving the island... the "loophole" as Jacob put it.

    What's with the sudden change in tense?

    Now, stop being intellectually dishonest. What troubled you was why the MIB was being referred to as "dead". Now you're changing the focus of your argument onto one sentence of my original post. Go ahead now and argue with me over whether or not the instances I've allude to really represent someone coming back from the grave. An argument there would be pretty useless though, those are the things I said I hope the show would expound upon.

    Sweet Merciful Crap! That's such a blatant dodge! You're referring to the MIB taking the form of bodies brought to the island as further "coming back" from the dead on the MIB's part? And then preemptively dismissing any attempt to point out that that's horsecrap. Jeez, just admit that you were confused and have nothing there.

    And, btw, the "loophole" was (apparently) assuming Locke's shape in order to convince Ben to kill Jacob. Having Ben kill Jacob was the loophole. There's nothing about the MIB taking Locke's form that changes "the rules" or allows the MIB to leave the island. I just don't know where you're pulling that from. . . it seems to be just more evidence that you have no f'ing clue about even the most basic plot points of this show. But I also suspect you're desperately trying to divert attention from the fact that you can't find one single additional instance where you can reasonably claim that the MIB died again and "came back". . . so you're now just making stuff up and then preemptively saying: "But don't try to argue that this isn't "coming back." Jesus, since when do we consider the MIB taking the forms of dead people as "coming back" from the dead each and every time. Did he die and "come back" when he took Christian's form with Claire? When he impersonated Richard's wife? (if that was indeed him). Or just when he took Locke's form? You're seriously making that claim with a straight face? That is just pure, utter horseshit and you know it. It's a blatant dodge.

    Look, by its nature, this show is supposed to have twists and turns. It's supposed to be confusing. I don't claim to have all the answers. All I know is you seem to be way confused about even the limited number of answers we appear to have been given. And the more you say, the more confused you appear to be (if you're not just playing dumb now in an attempt to muddy the waters even further).

×
×
  • Create New...