Noyhauser

The nose-mounted operator's seat wouldn't work, realistically, anyway.

The cockpit instruments would have to be removed, to make room. Not good.

If you've got a YF-21 model in front of you I'd urge you to look at its cockpit and tell me there isn't any room. There is a shedload of space in front of the pilot, which provides a good starting point for a second person. In the 22, the space is used up by the supporting column for the control panel, but its size seems somewhat large when you compare it to the YF-19's panel and column. Replace the column with something smaller (or maybe even trying to suspend it from the canopy like the Yf-21) and you've already got a lot of space for an operator to sit.

If I seem a bit insistent on this, its because I've hacked the model apart recently to build a battroid conversion.

There's no room in the nose, anyway.

There is plenty of room if you downgrade the radar, which is realistic if you think about the new mission of the airframe.

To make a 2-seater, the fuselage is cut away a little at the back of the canopy, a lengthened and heightened canopy is added, and the computer equipment behind the pilot is replaced by less complex equipment and a seat, for the copilot. That's not any structural modification. Replacing all of the stuff in the nose is.

So, you're suggesting we don't remove the nose radar, which is certainly supplanted by the two massive radars now being carried. Instead the fighter should remove or install less complex computer equipment... which would be vital for the control of the two massive radar arrays now being carried.

Yeah, Great idea.

Also, you try laying down in a high-g dogfight, in a claustrophobic space in a transforming giant robot. Not realistic, dude.

This thing is a radar plane carrying a massive radome on its spine and massive wing like structure on the bottom. What High speed dogfights you would engage in carrying such equipment is beyond me, "dude."

That p-38 is awesome. didn't know about the front seat conversion with exception of the bombers like the Mitchell. My biggest problem would be to find a canopy bubble to put in place plus the nose would have to be raised and widened anyways at least a bit to make space for a second crew member (possible a pain to sculpt for me) which in the end might make the nose look stubby and cumbersome. Although the idea of shortening the nose and maybe adding some gadgetry to the already lengthened fuselage sounds interesting...

Thanks Noyhauser..

All this brainstorming does help a lot.

Hmm I think that I might have miscommunicated what I was thinking. What I'm proposing would not require a major redesign of the nose, just the opposite. I would have the radar operator seated in such a fashion where he's somewhat reclined (Like how an M-1A1 MBT's driver is seated), with the majority of his body recessed inside the nose. His head would stick out right behind where the canopy meets the nose. Here you can use the YF-21's canopy bulb (at its top) to form a small observation window, placing it either as part of the VF-22's canopy, or separate to it. This wouldn't look that bad given the 22's already organic looking canopy, and wouldn't necessitate a major rebuild of the nose. Its also the most realistic option, as the fighter itself wouldn't have any major structural changes, just the removal of some of its nose sensor equipment, a cockpit redesign and the insertion of a mini-radar operator's station in the nose.

Just out of curiosity wanted to play with an idea I haven\'t seen to this day. A reconnaissance VF-21/22. I got an spare Hasegawa kit and got to building. I like the recons vf\'s in any variable fighter scheme so thought why not a 22?

I got a bit ambitious so I scratch-built a ventral antenna like the VF-25 and a mock up device for the first Cloaking valk in trials. Also a radar dish made with Bondo and styrene.

My first problem was to figure whether it would need 2 crew members? So i went for this idea, but this would mean I needed to stretch the fuselage a bit for a mock up second pilot spot. I am planning in sculpting one straight in the cut off fuselage but not sure out of what?.

When Milliput dries is way too hard to sculpt, sand or cut. I would need something softer that can be easily sanded. Any suggestions?

My second problem is what the heck will I name it?

Is a reconnaissance valk with a cloaking device that makes it invisible to radar and partial EM spectrums, My first thought was INFILTRATOR..but then again I might be way over my head. Would that name makes sense or is the better options.. What would its denomination be?

Well in Macross Seven, Single Seat VF-17 carried radar dishes... so the precedent is there.

If you want to make a two seater, why not try something different; placing the second seat in front of the pilot's seat? Maybe with the radar operators head, just before or right at where the pilot\'s control panel is (There is a quite a bit of room in the 21/22's cockpit.) This isn't as silly as it sounds, since the nose radar is likely to be superfluous with the big radome. By downgrading the fighter's nose radar or removing it completely they could easily create space in there for a radar operator/controller. You can also use the YF-21 globe to form a small window for the operator to see out from. Actually the configuration would kinda remind me of the two seater P-38J Pathfinder configurations:

Or the more relevant radar configuration:

The benefit of this is that you won't have to cut the fuselage apart and extended, which to be honest wouldn't look that good in transformation. Having built a YF-21 battroid conversion, the nose/cockpit area is already too long. If it were to transform after the extension, the whole thing would look silly. Its something to think about, even if you aren't transforming it. The forward operator's position suggestion requires the least amount of structural modification, would actually look pretty good and have some historical precedent.

Originally I was going to build it but now I would probably just take a cast of the parts and make one from that.

As mine is the only one I have ever seen it is far too rare to mess with, So it stays unbuilt.

Eh, They aren't THAT rare.... I've seen I think at least two on the forums for sale, and a few on ebay and the like. Given how long some of them stayed on the forums unsold (Blackaces was listed for over a year at $70), I don't think they are in demand.

I'd say start with the Hasegawas first, since they are much much simpler than the Bandai kits, which have been compared to their Gundam MG line. Alternatively, if you can wait, and want a 'do-it-all' kit, you can get the 1/72 Luca, do the Ghost fighters first (which will be simpler, and you can try things out 3 times before you're out of Ghosts) before doing the Valkyrie itself

I really disagree with this statement. I've built 1/72 airplane models for years and the VF series is actually among the harder pieces I've ever encountered for a modern model... particularly the VF-1 Super/Strike. Its got more parts, semi hidden facings, and fragile parts than any other contemporary airplane model. Its not an easy build by any stretch of the imagination.

The bandai stuff is dirt simple to put together; its basically a gunpla for Macross (for better or for worse.) You even need to paint a Bandai piece very much to make it look good, as its designed for that mindset. This completely the opposite for the Hasegawa models where you NEED to paint, and do it well for it to look acceptable (even no-paint builds require a huge amount of skill.) Finally you can manhandle it a bit; you can't do that with a Hase model because of their fragility.

As someone pointed out above, if you want to enter into modeling, you might want to find some of the early Bandai VF-1s. They might not be the best in terms of detail, but they are very good practice. Choosing another hasegawa model is another option... I don't know if I'd go for the F-14 (its older and has a few problems), but the F/A-18F is a newer model with great detail but easy to assemble. I can see a new aircraft modeler becoming quickly frustrated with a Hasegawa VF-1 given its complexity and high need for skill. Or if you're more interested in the Gunpla side, go with a Gundam model... you can get some great deals these days online for them. However

You'll never see unmmaned aircraft in the utility, cargo missions, or civilian airline industry, nobody is going to turn their trust over to a computer completley. The aircraft may be largly computer controlled, but not fully...example the UH-60M and CH-47F can both be flown pretty much by computer, you load up a memory stick with a flight profile, plug it into the aircraft and the bird can take off, fly the waypoints, dodge trees and hills and wires, and then land at the designated point, but the pilots are still monitoring the aircraft the hole time. It's great for offloading pilot workload on long flights but you still need the pilots in case there is a problem with the system or somebody starts shooting at you.

The best networks can be hacked and the most secure signals can be jammed you'll always need a man in the air with any system you send up. Pilots working with UAVs/UCAVs as wingmen, direct recon, support, or supplement to their misison...absolutley, it will happen and already does, but you'll always need pilots. Hell, maybe I'm biased because I am one, but that's my two cents.

Oh there will always be a need for the "man in the loop," though I don't think Dale Brown has the answer, though I'd love to see a semi-stealthy B-52, armed with SLAMs and a rear firing stinger turret

Seriously though there are just too many things that require situational awareness, which you can't get sitting in a shed at Nellis or Yuma (or wherever we fly Preds from these days.) Like missiles, AIs can be fooled, spoofed, decoyed, whatever, but operating semi-autonomously must be a huge force multiplier for a human pilot in the area. Moreover the Chinese watch our developments and are constructing effective countermeasures. Who wants to bet they have the ability to jam datalinks for our present day UAVs? I think its a fair bet.

Obviously you're not serious enough to be a true macross fan.

How disappointing

Here, here. From what I have read and granted it's not as much as most. But the 'Cat could carry more ordinance further and faster than even the SuperBug can. And when ordinance was packed on the 'Cat it's performance was not affected nearly as much as a Hornets. Too bad the Navy couldn't pull their heads out of their collective asses. The Super Bug was never an efficient replacement for the Tomcat and never will be. I believe I also read that (Northrop) Grumman wanted to upgrade the F-14/produce new actual airframes and the Navy more or less cut them off at the knees on that plan.

At least the Air Force is actually getting/already has an aircraft (the F-22) that is an upgrade to the F-15. (I won't debate who should have won the fly-off between the YF-22 and the YF-23 though). To me what the Navy did with the F-14 and F-18 would be like the Air Force giving up it's F-15s to use a larger version of the F-16 like the F-2.

Eh... there is a whole internet cottage industry around why the Tomcat is/was better than the Shornet, much of it debatable, if not questionable. You can search the forums for some of it.

One thing I will say is that of the airframe procurement projects launched since the end of the Cold War, the Super Hornet was actually one of the better run programs and came with few delays and minimal cost overruns. ($381 million dollars over price, on a $9.2 billion dollar program.) A tomcat upgrade would have been just as bad, likely worse than the Super Hornet. Had the Navy gone with a true follow-on successor, it is quite likely it would now be in the same position of the Airforce; trying to maintain a 1970s era legacy fleet, while praying the next administration will spend the dollars to approve a replacement fighter during an economic downturn. Instead the Navy actually has a brand new fighter/attack fleet to meet global demands.

So, here is a question; a friend and I are having a gaming weekend and its a tossup between this and GOW2; what would you suggest? I think another might show up from time to time, if that makes a difference.

I don't think Armored Trooper Votoms can be stressed enough as an example of a more realistic anime.

Well I'm not too hot about the TV pilots, but I'm willing to buy two (or more if I can trade out the TV pilots for something else)

A group of ex-Marines have taken over the island and the gov't has sent a chemist and a geriatric to save the day. The F/A-18s are there just in case they screw up!

HA!

Was there this much build up between space battles in LOGH?

Yes. The Amlitzer starzone encounter, one of the main battles of the show, has a three (even four) episode build up and covers three episodes. By comparison this isn't that much. I get the feeling that Tytania is intended to be "LOGH lite" designed to keep some of the deeper themes of LOGH, but without the hard core history that the story had. I just noticed but this is playing on NHK, so its probably designed to appeal to a wider audience.

Episode 5 anyone? The series has grown on me, but its still not there... Its got some so/so animation at times, but who really watches a Yoshiki Tanaka piece for animation?

Eh, I think thats probably one of the best parts of Yoshiki Tanaka's series. Warfare today has become a routinized process, with the creation of joint staffs, rules of engagement and doctrine ect. Tytania heralds back to an earlier era of warfare, not completely dominated by "professional" soldiers, but by uneven talent, with genius and ineptitude mixed together.

I think thats the best part of the attack. The battle wasn't really supposed to be a battle; it was a political spectacle; for Lord Ayabart to show his superiority over his brothers, For Tytania to show its dominion over space, and even for Euria to give its token resistance to Tytania. It wasn't good enough for Ayabart to destroy the Eurian fleet from afar, letting a portion to escape; he wanted a complete and utter victory with the complete destruction of his enemy that could be shown to all. It was a political, not a military act. They never thought Euria could win, which reflects their arrogance and disregard for caution. Hulick understood this and created a strategy which took advantage of that hubris.

Knight, you might like to check out the Legend of the Galactic Heroes... its a bit more realistic than Tytania, even though it has all the same trends.

Actually the VF-0 was designed as a test bed for the VF-1 systems, not to combat the AUN Army. It was pressed into combat service when the SV-51 was revealed by the AUN.

One could explain the rather plain look of the VF-1 to production concessions. The designers may have wanted to use the better VF-0 wing types, but budgets and the need for a quick production turnover may have prevented several "better" design elements to be included.

They needed transformable fighters and they needed them fast, as an imminent alien threat was expected at anytime. The VF-0 was a corvette, while the VF-1 was a chevelle. One expensive and advanced, while the other was a basic production line vehicle built to do a job in large numbers. The same type of vehicle, just not the same level of tech.

I think its part of that, but let me introduce a caveat. I'd assume that the VF-1 actually would cost more than the VF-0 (or very close to), because it uses a thermonuclear engine versus a tuned conventional one. While the VF-0 might have other bells and whistles that were not added to a VF-1, it was likely because the VF-1 was already an very expensive fighter to begin with.

By the way, the VF-1's head Carries a radar array of its own (in the forehead of the S version) which I assume is included on other models.

Regarding transformation...

Yes, those piston plates for moving the VF-1's legs look really nasty. The whole leg system in the VF-1 is pretty damned inefficient. Just look at all the space those transfer mechanisms take up in the fuselage and imagine how much they have to weigh in order to move around the engines/legs, the heaviest parts of the variable fighter. From an in-universe context, I can see why the engineers wanted to come up with something better.

I've always thought the most convincing explanation for the VF-1 was that it was the first Variable fighter designed by UN SPACY against an enemy they only had a vague idea about. They didn't know whether they would have fighter type aircraft or their doctrine, but they knew they were giant aliens... which required a response. As a result, it seems as if Battroid is the main mode for which its designed for, at the expense of aerodynamics in fighter mode. The VF-0 (which required greater efficiency since it had conventional engines) was designed with a clear enemy and role in mind (the Anti-UN.) That meant it had to combat regular and transformational craft. The VF-1's successor, the VF-4 and almost every fighter afterwards returned to a more aerodynamic styling. But the VF-1 was more seen as an armored soldier that could take on a mysterious giant enemy, which could also transform, rather than a balanced variable fighter.

Oberstein appeared towards the middle so where is fraulein Mariendorf ?

The point is a Macross Class has much more than a NMC.

First off lets introduce some evidence. About 1:40 minutes in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNhPTHk2SA...feature=related

There are three launcher types shown. The first one (A ten shot box launcher) is definitely from Battle 7; its shown a couple of episodes earlier launching a Conserax probe. The second one is a Stealth Frigate, and the third is unknown, but it may well also be from Battle 7. The second shot gives an idea of its size; they are significantly larger than a VF, which were launched from the Stealth frigates torpedo tubes inside reentry capsules during Operation Stargazer. Not that I trust this website for anything, but its got two images of the vf-reentry pod that I can't find anywhere else, which give a sense of the missiles scale.

http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/weapons.shtml#rocketsled

So this shows that the New Macross Class had at least ten large diameter reaction missile tubes, versus the four (we know of) on the ARMDs of the SDF-1.

Second there is no way to gauge the relative power of the 2040+ Reaction Weapons vs 2010 models. Even if the SDF-1 had more weapons, it does not mean they were "better." Given the advancing state of other technologies, there is much to suggest that reaction weapons also increased in power. Certainly they had introduced a very large missile type for this purpose. We do know that the Macross Fleet did attempt to use reaction weapons against the protodevilin AFTER the unsuccessful use of the Macross Cannon several weeks earlier. That at least indicates the weapons might be considered on-par with the main beam gun... though thats more of an assertion which can't be proven.

A Macross Class has more Valkyries than a New Macross Class it is combination of battleship and carrier. It can fire its own reaction missiles from many missile tubes and launchers , and scary anti-aircraft flak.

That is just conventional engagement without using the BFG.

Ummm NMC had Reaction missiles, plenty of them too, likely more powerful than the original Macross' weapons. You see them several times in Macross 7, but most clearly in Episode 46 when they decide to use them vs Glavil.

I wouldn't mind seeing a build up, my next project is this same kit.

Is that an F-18 with reaction missiles in the background?

Yeah its a F/A-18E Super Hornet that I've done in a UN Navy Scheme, with one RMS-1 a six AMMs and I'll add two AMRAAMs and two AIM-9X later. I kinda see its as part of the period around Macross Zero between the Anti-UN and the UN. I'm not sure though I might make it completely low-viz with gray tailfins. It too is an WIP and again, sorry about the blurry pics.

So I guess I've been a bit selfish... I've hung around M-World and never actually posted anything I've done. So I thought I would post one of my WIP, a Valk009 recast VF-4. I'm not a fan of canon schemes, so I decided to go with one that might seem a bit familiar to some here. Also I brush paint models, which often give a bit of an uneven, faded effect. So I use alot of panel lining and oil streaks to give stuff a more worn look... thats coming up next.Anyway, here it is... sorry about the poor photo quality.

Makes sense to me, since "Judah" or rather "Judas" implies treacherous behavior and if the Sharon Apple type of AI is used, they would need some sort of system to keep it under control. Possibly it was meant to be called the "Judas" System and the writers made a mistake with the name.

Maybe thats exactly what they meant, as in a macabre sort of way. Turn on the Judas system and yeah it might eliminate your enemies at the risk that it might stab you in the back like judas.

I might have a spare one from an VT-1D, they come with three.

Let me check.

Edit, yup, three. I'll clip off the sprue. Just send me your shipping details.