Whamhammer

VF5SS and Whamhammer, would two like to take that it to PM or some other area, or do I have to ban you 2?

Read the thread of insults being cast again , and make the decission. Im not interested in the sort of insults like Im getting here from this guy. I really dont have time for it. Azreal, I leave it for you to sort out. My E-mail address is in my info section. Let me know how it goes.

The DeLorean Motor corporation should license THIS design instead of screwing around with rebranding a lame-mobile.

http://jalopnik.com/5382409/supasse-v-supe...-heads-to-toyko

Did a SmartCar and a Lotus Exige have sex and spew that thing out?

The challenge was to avoid being targeted by the apache not to survive a missile strike.

I don't mean to split hairs.

I understand that, but Ive seen Top Gear and love the show,but I know sometimes they get a little bit silly on thier "fluff-pieces".

You live creepily close to me.

Im not that close anymore (even though, you really should clean your houseswindows more, I cant peek in!!! ) . I live near Aberdeen Proving Grounds now , about an hour to an hour and a half drive from D.C. depending on Baltimore and D.C.'s traffic.

You're just an idiot.

Are the "Yo' momma" insults next in line?

There's hope and then there's stupid,blind faith.

"V", do you need a hug? Im sensing a fair deal of negativity from you.

Which is the reason why I don't buy any of the stuff, and haven't in awhile. Being a fan, and having hope is good and all, but if it's not followed by anything to support positive change, or convey a sense of urgency in fixing the problems, HG isn't gonna know what to do. I wouldn't mind seeing a good anime feature from HG (glad it'd be Macross free for the most part). Likewise, if it's a garbage show, I'm not gonna buy it. I don't buy the product, and I don't buy the movies. The problem is that there aren't enough Robotech fans who think like that though. Most will buy stuff simply cause it has a Robotech lable on it. I'm sure they'd buy poo on a stick if it had the name Robotech on it. That's why I don't think anything will change from the staff. They'll make money putting out a shoddy product, and way too many fans wanting a sense of nostalgia are gonna gobble it up. I don't waste my time with any of the new stuff at all, and a part of why I had a falling out with the staff.

Well, at least we got our Betas now and they were worth it. Unless they start comming our with Hovertanks or a really good new product, I'm happy with not buying anything. Especially since Im paying out of pocket for college now. I odnt need any "gotta havitts" right now. Only thing Im looking at right now is seasons four and five of Slayers. Even if H.G. comes out with something worthwhile, Ill have probably finished the Associates degree and be able to mop up the bachelors in sweet time. No rush for me.

Top Gear is great show but that "challenge" (it was more like horseplay) was pretty much BS. A radar lock wasn't really needed to kill that Lotus Exige.

Yeah, sometimes those guys get a little silly in thier challenges. Like the fullsize r.c. car for instance. I'd take that "challenge" with a grain of salt. Lotus tend to be unarmoured vehicles and it would make more sence to use Folding Fin Aerial Rockets of a Hellfire on them , for obvious reasons.

Ok, maybe I remember the Delorean to be better than it was, but at least it was exotic. It was something special. I repainted Pontiac is NOT special at all.

You also can't dismiss inertia just from one example. Thats physics. It is more efficient to change the direction of less mass as opposed to more given the potential contact of rubber to weigh ratio. This is why the Lotus can evade the tracking system of an Apache attack helicopter and no other car can do this. It can just turn faster.

I never said less weight overcomes inertia easier, its one way to make performance, but not the only way. I never said the Solstice was a "Super-car" its never been suggested that way, I said it was a great platform. I'm not looking at the Solstice as a race car, but as a daily driver roadster that the masses can afford and enjoy. If I wanted something closer to a "race-car" I'd buy a Corvette Grand Sport or Porsche Boxter/Cayman S, pay $60k for it and do a few tweaks . Thats not affordable, nor is anything with a Lotus badge (even though they are a great performance value, giving up much to do with comfort), even walking in at what $45k? Affordable in my book is thinking to myself, "For about the same money, I can buy a loaded Camry V-6."

Where are you getting your info on the Lotus evading Apahces? Number one, why would someone want to do that was this a one off?, number two do that enough and no matter how quickly you can turn , youre taking a dirtnap FFAR shrapnel kills in an area of effect.

Justify your fandom, lest ye be erased from history!

But seriously, Seto is right. The people who keep hanging on and supporting Robotech are never going to get what they want. Even the ones who came here and are considered the nice ones still have that fetishistic reverence for THE ORIGINAL 85. That's absolutely disgusting. Even Harmony Gold doesn't care what the fans want and showed it with Shadow Chronicles but fans still supported it so they have no reason to do anything different. Is that what Robotech fans want is generic sci-fi dressed up in anime's clothing?

I've already said my beliefs on that. Futility or not , there is still hope. And to be a fan is to have hope.

See, and I think it's fine to be a Robotech fan, and enjoy it for the story it is. I think that since Macrossworld has a lot to do with Mospeada as well, I find nothing wrong with fans who just appreciate the mecha and designs coming here to talk and look at the site. We wouldn't be any better of a site here if we did the same things that rt.com does in ostrisizing fans who don't think the same, or like Macross only. While there is an occasional backlash from some idiot on the boards here from time to time, simply being able to appreciate what you like and having a place to do so should be simple and fun. When it stops being fun, open all the exit doors.

Wham, I think it's just fine that you're a Robotech fan. If you didn't have any interest in Macross (which I know you have some), although I'd find it a little odd, it'd still be alright if you were here. There's people that I only see on this thread, and some that I only see on Mospeada discussions, so that's OK. It's a good thing to see people here have the diversity that they have, yet coexist in one virtual space. It was one reason why as a mod on rt.com, I tried not to go into the Macross/southern cross/Mospeada forums too often. There's way too much judgement on those boards, and it seems like just posting in there about nothing slanderous can lable you. I hope you don't think that you have to defend your fandom here. While you've already gotten questions about why and so-on, you have to understand that people here can be cautious and need to test the waters when it comes to new people. There's been some bad fish out there from rt.com, and from I believe the Transformers sites that have come in running a muck.

Thanks Jason . I try to keep an open mind on any issue I wander into (just imagine the fun of that, while being raised five miles from Washington D.C. , lol!!). There are some times where I feel a challenge to my fandom here from those with less affection for Robotech than I have, but for that matter I was challenged to defend my fandom on RT.com when I had better expectations of H.G. and Robotech by fans and staff alike there as if I hated Robotech. I dont like the way the some of the hate has come out on both sides of the issue. Im for furthering understanding, as long as its out of true interest and not made to insult. There are people who are going to bash something , no matter what explanation is given to them. And true even though Im not as crazy with Macross as most are, there is some interest, and I respect it for it being quality anime (except for the musical dogfighting thing, thats just wrong!! )

If youd remember about three or so years ago there was someone that showed up on RTech.com that only wanted to say bad things about Rtech and praise Macross . I tried to difuse the person and promote understanding not win them over to a "superiority" of Robotech ,while others called to ban him/her outright. Once it was obvious that they werent interested in discussion, just bashing ,I bid them well and told them I wouldnt have discussion with them anymore. I would take issue with the same sort of person who would do the same thing about Macross.

This is simple.

There are only three possible paths that this will all take:

1. HG becoms sane, stops banning people for having opinions or liking Yamatos and Macross and instead gets to work on great merchandise and a great show and tries to EARN their fans trust and money instead of using CR law and TOU to try to twist peoples arms.

2. The fandom splits into TWO DISTINCT FRONTS:

A) Harmony Gold Fundamentalists

B) Robotech Lovers

The difference? Robotech lovers just love Robotech, they can't be assed about the legal mumbo jumbo, and they have no patience for flame wars. All they want to do is enjoy Robotech openly and without Big H sitting over their shoulder to make sure what they type is "appropriate." These people will have their own websites, their own forums, their own podcasts, their own online fanzines and rpgs and will just live in their own little world free of Harmony Gold.

Meanwhile, Harmony Gold Fundamentalists will sit on RT.com and look for people to ban.

3) More and more Robotech fans begin to interact with Macross fans whether here on MW.com or in general. Because MW.com does not ban Robotech nor does it actively flame or discourage Robotech, and because the "no Robotech" rule on MW is not a general commandment, but rather a reminder that when we discuss Hikaru Ichijo, we really want to discuss Hikaru Ichijo and not Rick Hunter, and because MW has THIS thread for people who might want to discuss Rick Hunter and there is open debate here - more and more Robotech fans will see that "Macross Purists" are not people who would necessarily BAN you for saying "I like Robotech."

See - to put it in religious terms - HG Fundies are like people whose faith commands them to beat the sh!t out of other people. Macross Purists are people whose faith commands them to love Macross and SHARE that love - not force it, not flame it, not compell it - but just share it. And in this sense, Macross Purists have no problem not just talking to RT lovers, but even going to sleep KNOWING that the RT lover...still...loves..Robotech (gasp!)

And if this third scenario takes place- you wanna know what I think will happen?

I think more and more Robotech lovers will become Macross purists.

Yep.

Not because they will be forced, not because they'll be convinced by Gubaba or me or other Macross Purists - but simply because while they hang out here and start to check out other threads, they will discover the world of the original Macross for themselves and come to love it.

That's how much I believe in the power of Macross

Macross does not need copy right laws and terms of use and C&D orders to survive.

All it needs to do is be as good as it has been - and that'll draw people in.

Harmony Gold and RT.com are sinking ships.

Even Memo will eventually be turned to Macross Purism.

It is inevitable.

Pete

I disagree on the Macross Purist point. I think your definition is closer to what a Macross Fan would be. I'd call a Purist to Macross being akin to what you define as a Harmony Gold Fundamentalist for Robotech.

As you could figure by what I've said in the past, I would go with being a "Robotech Lover". I watched it as a younger self and enjoyed the storylines being tied together and the progession from Robotech Masters to The New Generation (and later seeing the tie in with the first "Macross" segment as well) and still like watching it. I like the use of the "narrator" , its an interesting way to move a story forward in this case.

I'm not anchored to directly having "Macross" in any further projects , and actually dont want to see "Macross" in any further projects.

I also dont think all roads lead to Macross for the Robotech fan. I've seen some of the Macross products via friends in the past and havent felt compelled to buy any of them. I still havent seen Zero and that does interest me from what Ive seen from the You Tube videos of its scenes put to music (I particullarly like the Ramstien video). I've moved on to Bubblegum Crisis (didnt like 2040), Hellsing, and Slayers as an example. I'm sure I can't be the only one out there that feels this way.

Here’s some thought provoking reasoning for conversation; how can someone truly enjoy something when its success, ongoing success, or the owner’s insistence of its focus for continued success comes at the expense of something and someone else? In this case, Macross and a little bit of Mechwarrior.

I wonder about things like that too.

Mechwarrior doesnt need that little part. It did fine in the previous games since MW:II . That couldve been a Templar or Black Knight for all it mattered in place of a Warhammer and it wouldve been just as good.

I'm with UN Marine.

I authentically want to know what people see in Robotech that makes them stick to it. The only things I could concievably come up with are the RPGs which I thought were very, very cool - but really, the RPG could just as well have been called 'Macross' since most of the time you could play without knowing a thing about the show, the plot of the show etc etc (which is how I played it when I was a kid). I understand the whole "Robotech made a contribution to bringing anime to America" but dung-houses were a big advancement over taking a sh!t in the grass next to your hut, but you don't see people refusing modern toilets because dung-houses (wooden shack built over deep hole where you sh!t could fall) were a historical milestone in feaces disposal.

As to the "I like apples, you like oranges" (value relativism) point - yes. Of course. You're right. But you're only right as a matter of pure praxeology. However, just because we ought to tolerate one another's preferences doesn't mean we can't discuss them critically, and it also doesn't mean that all values are merely subjective in a pure sense. We make choices based on our thinking and feeling about something, and we take into account outside factors.

Now - I'm not saying that there's a "right" choice here - I'm not saying Robotech fans are somehow "obliged" to "justify" their hobby or switch to Macross. All I'm saying is - I just wonder what people like about it. I wonder whether people can give some coherent arguments for it - can give reasons why it is interesting and, more importantly, why it is more interesting than Macross - interesting enough that you'd rather follow it than Macross, or that you can follow both etc.

Final point - since nobody is advocating the oppression of Robotech fans or the forced conversion of Robotech fans to Macross, I see not reason to bring up the "values" argument since nobody is questioning Robotech fans right to hold their values for their own reasons. In fact, I usually find that when someone can't give any reasons, he resorts to the "everyone has subjective values" argument, as if opinions are all just random and people have no reason for holding them.

I for one try to think about what is most enjoyable and I am happy when other people give thoughtful reasons for why they enjoy what they enjoy, because it helps me learn from them.

So...again I ask the question: why do people like Robotech? What's so compelling about the story, characters, plot etc that people call themselves Robotech fans?

Pete

Im a Robotech Fan. I did watch is when I was younger . I still watch it and enjoy it. I like the sagas progression from the Robotech Masters to New Generation stoylines (and I later saw the "Macross" portion ) being tied together as one story. I like the "narrator" aspect and think it works well. I like the "history" brought about of tying the three sagas together. I like the fact that it gave me an alternative to the status quo of cartoons of the time. I believe that the original Macross would never have been picked up for t.v. airing in my area as it was. As far as future Robotech projects, I'd be more than happy to see any future projects without direct ties to "Macross" . I think it doesnt have a place in the future.

I also dont think all rods lead to Macross for a Robotech fan. In the past I've seen some of the Macross continuations and was never compelled to try to buy them. I am interested in Zero, I like some of the scenes put to video on you tube (especially the Ramstien one). I've moved on to Bubblegum Crisis (I didnt like 2040), Hellsing , and Slayers to name a few. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there.

As far as what you call a Macross purist, Id call that a fan. I've seen groups on the Macross community who are venomus and full of contempt to those who like Robotech. Id call the more venomous crowd purists , theyre closeto what you describe a H.G. fundamentalist. I also think the Robotech Fans base schism has already occurred by the way H.G. has treated its base,of which I am an example.

Did we ever see what happened to the two that went through the stargate on the planet to another plant? If so I missed it. Seems like a big loose end that got dropped rather quickly. I'm guessing we'll see those two again at some point... but how?

Carl

There wasnt a resolution on the fate of that group that went to the other planet. Hopefully, we wont.

Change of inertia is more important than power to weight ratio. That is why the pontiac is terrible and will never be touched by track people. Such was not the case for the original Delorean. Light = brake later, accelerate sooner. I think where the engine is placed is key also. Rear mount is just a more performance stance and better rake of the entire car. I'd rather the Delorean be based on the Mr2 than the Pontiac.

The Solstice wasn't designed for the "track" car segment. Its not a "super-car".Its segemented between the Miata and the Z-4. Its a roadster thats meant to be "affordable" and be driven on a daily basis. "Track" people only account for a small percentage of a target market.

True, the Solstice GXP weighs about 3,000 pounds and the Miata weighs about 2,500 pounds, the Z-4 with the 300 horse turbo-six is in the ballpark of 3400 pounds also would you bash the Z-4 more than the Solstice? There are Ferraris, which are "supercars" that are more than 4,000 pounds and are successful.

To suggest the original Delorian in context to being a "super-car" or a "track" car is absurdity. Without modifying the engines well in excess of its original capabilities the Delorian wouldve had to have never let off of acceleration to keep with other "super-cars" which is unrealistic to expect out a driver or vehicle. And Jaguar prooved a long time ago that you can put massive brakes on a car to make it stop later in a turn, even on a heavier car, and that will help win championships.

As far as "mid" or "rear" engine set-ups go, the new Corvette Grand Sport has a 51 front 49 rear weight bias and is front engine (given , the transmission is mounted in the back) and mostpeople would say that a 50/50 bias is the ideal setup, that puts the 'Vette with a decent bias without a mid or rear setup. Theres more than one way to skin a cat, or a well balanced good handling car.

Yeah, I remember that being mentioned. After listening to the JT podcast, it made me realize that I really have nothing against Robotech fans (how could I when I, in fact, like the "original" airing of it). What the podcast made me realize is that even some of the level headed fans can't stand the way some of their own act like Robotech in their perception, is the absolute gospel, and that's the way it goes. I also like the fact that he can read through much of the B.S. that the staff spits out as gospel, and those fans that are a little too fanatic take as the undeniable truth. Case in point, at Macrossworld con 09, I asked Tommy Yune a simple straight forward question about what he thought the chances of the LAM coming out was. Now, knowing that there isn't a budget, no finished story, no cast, no full staff, and no green light for shooting, I asked because of certain delays they've had. To my surprise, he told me 98% positive it would happen. Now, even when asked for the non RT spokesman percentage, he still insisted this, even with so many uncertainties floating around. Several days later, I saw a post in which someone who happened to be listening say it as the absolute gospel. Him and I kinda got into a debate about it, simply because 98% just isn't a feasible number when nothings really done. His basis for the whole argument??? Cause Tommy said. Do some of these fans think for themselves. Some do, some don't, but what can you do? I would've believed a 75-80% chance, heck, even 85%, but not 98%. Then to have some brainless RT fan start posting his "findings" as some area 51 secret he found, and quote is as truth is just stupid. What is sad, is that is the type of fans Robotech is searching for these days. Fans who don't give a flip about what's really out there, and what maybe hard facts, just what HG staff say. Then, as in more cases that keep popping up, the fans who don't comply are "Macross Purists", and not true fans.

It's sad when you think about it. True fans will do what they can to save a franchise they support when it's going down the drain, IMHO. Someone along for the ride will just let everything go. In that statement, it seems that Robotech is being replaced by people who aren't fans at all, but by people content in it sinking. While most of the people here may not care, I'm on the fence. Not in a perplexed and complex manner, but moreso in the fact that while I was a Macross fan before Robotech was even over here, it was Robotech who helped make it understandable, and it was Robotech who gave me a love for Mospeada, and an appreciation for Southern Cross. The VA's were great, the music was great, and while we nitpick it to death here, there are some merits to it, and it does have it's place in helping bring Macross to many here who would have no clue about it otherwise. Yes, I'm probably rambling, but that's what good medicine will do when you're in pain, hahaha.

When it comes to the movies chances. Untill it becomes a reality , no matter the percentage is, its just a chance. Most of the time ,a persons pulling a number out thier arses.

On the last paragraph there Jason, I live in Maryland. We didnt have much exposure to anime where I was (an especially where my parents would take the family). Sure, we saw StarBlazers on t.v., but that was about it and it stopped airing where I could see it in 1981. I'm trying to forget Tranzor Z, so I wont even go there. The way the markets were over on this side of the country, I honestly believe Macross wouldnt've been aired in its original format. I wouldve been in Transformers, GoBots and G.I.Joe hell. (notto mention M.A.S.K. eeeeeeew!!) I know Southern Cross and Moseapda wouldnt have had a snowballs chance of airing at all, and those parts are what I enjoy the most.

Keep in mind I didnt even see the "Macross" portion of Robotech untill like a year and a half after I saw the rest by sheer luck (or un-luck if you will) of scheduling and switching between schools ( it aired at 2:30 , my first school got out at 2:00 and the newer school was at 3:00) so I didnt even have that portion of exposure "Macross"wise.

I would "like to save Robotech". But I dont want to do it just to make Harmony Gold money to just put stuff out and treat fans and customers without respect. If H.G. changes the way it does thing, great. If H.G. lets someone else who is willing to treat new Robotech projects with some professional pride that would be even better. Will either happen, odds are , no. The fence is really the only place to sit these days.

I seriously would like someone to point me to some half way intelligent reasons being given by a Robotech fan why the series is worth it... I mean...anywhere. Any. At all.

I get the feeling that Macross fans who criticize Robotech actually love it more than Robotech fans - because when they criticize, they keep referencing particular episodes, novels and story lines - ergo demonstrating they have read, viewed and thought about what they are discussing...

Do Robotech fans even actually... you know...watch the series anymore? Or read the novels? Or anything?

Pete

Is there truely a desire for you to understand why a person likes Robotech? Or is it a critisism?

An "intelligent reason" on the "worth" (ie. value) of anything is always subjective. One man's pain can be anothers pleasure. I like pizza, but I dont like sprouts. Porsche fans love thier Porsches and dont get why people buy Corvettes, and visa-versa. My preference doesnt make one better than the other (or any worse, for that matter). I like it, therefore it has value to me. You dont like it, therefore it has less or no value to you. Theres no reason to win you over to that concept. It is akin trying to win a Porsche afficianado over to the concept of preffering a Corvette.

The intelligent reasoning would be, that as long as both fans respect each others preferences , respect for the individual is maintained. Does prooving that one is right about a cartoon and another is wrong change the whole scope of things? ITS A CARTOON!!! ( I know, its anime, but I'm going for the effect here.)

No it isn't.

Its heavy. And to this point weak. Also ugly IMO. Also NOTHING in common with the previous Delorean. The Delorean was a mid-engine entry level-supercar. The Solstice is a front engine economy roadster. Its insulting to see the DMC logo on that car in the concept pictures.

Thats your opinion, and your allowed to it.

Yes, its heavier than a Miata. The Solstice/Sky/Opel GT also offered a 260 horse 2.0 liter turbo that more than makes up for that weight difference to the Miata (its target competitor). There also is a factory add-on to boost the engine to over 300 horse packeage as well. It offered a viable option to those who dont want to cough up $40k-plus for a sporty roadster. By the way, the Miata has been a very successful roadster and it is front engine as well. Not everyone can (or wants to) buy a Lotus Elise/Exige or a Porsche Boxster/Cayman.

A new Delorean product doesnt have to be along the same lines as the old ones. Honestly, that might make it more apt to be a success. As far as the original Delorean being an entry level super-car, did you loose your mind? Even in the low powered days of the early eighties, that weak 130 horsepower v-6 certainly made it a disqualifier.

Actually, my Oldsmobile comment was more for the 90s and early 00 models, which I probably should have been more clear on.

To be honest, ninety-nine percent of all cars in the last twenty to thirty years arent all that desireable. I'm no more likely to get a ten year old Camry than I am a ten year old Alero.

I guess once again this puts me in the minority: I actually like this show I like how the characters don't always get along with each other, I enjoy the fact that they're trying to deal with basics such as air, food, water and whatnot instead of just handwaving it away by saying "it's matter replicators!" and "it's a big ship with lots of food, no worries!".

I also really enjoy the way it's shot, a very different style from SG-1 and Atlantis and it's a nice breath of fresh air. As for having too many questions, I don't mind that at all. I enjoy season-long arcs and being able to put puzzle pieces together over the course of episodes.

Is it perfect? No. But it's quite a bit more entertaining than BSG ever was

I will give Universe kudos vs B.S.G. in regards that it doesnt make me want to blow my brains out while watching it. I just hope the first season isn't totally based on fixing the ship. I will get bored really quick. Also ae those communication stones one use? If so theyve used up three of the five the Doctor brought with him.

Yeah, JT/Zen72 is one of those rare Robotech fans who has his head screwed on straight. After years of dealing with people like MEMO, Maverick, and Pizza the Hutt, it took me a while to be sure that he wasn't just a hallucination brought about by my desire to believe that there had to be at least one Robotech die-hard who wasn't a complete idiot.

After all, for most of us, a statement like "Oh, I had an intelligent conversation with this really well-informed and rational die-hard Robotech fan today" is usually met with the same degree of incredulity that something along the lines of "I've just flown in from the Sherbert Kingdom, do you think the valet at Hogwarts can safely parallel park my flying marshmellow next to the unicorns?" would be.

They are out there. Just try to remember that not all fans think alike.

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=16

These R's toys is VERY VERY VERY rough....

Orz~~~~~~~

R's poor fans only have these OLD style toy, but M...

^^

Personally, I still prefer the look of the Alpha/Legioss. And don't forget the Beta! The newer Macross plane youve shown looks good in fighter mode, but I really dont like the battloid mode (not shown in those pix) at all. And the large Alpha in between display cases isn't a product, thats a custom made to augment that display section (its a prop').

And now for another WTF moment in automotive history. According to this article on Jalopnik.com, the Texas-based DeLorean Motor Company is considering the idea of using the now-discontinued Pontiac Solstice as the first car to carry the DeLorean badge in nearly three decades. If it happens, this will supposedly reopen the Wilmington, DE, plant and put hundreds of people back to work.

The New DeLorean?

That would be great! The Solstice is a great platform.

Saturns will be just as wanted as Oldsmobiles.

Do you know how much a good conition late Sixtes-Early Seventies 4-4-2 goes for?