Andras

Well, like I said this is all just fan talk because as far as I know there has never been a definitive official missile count. So one guess is as good as another I suppose. I only prefer the 30 micro-missile figure because the coincidence of the kill count declared in the SDF Macross anime and the DYRL cutaway diagram matching seems a pretty solid theory taken together. I will say it doesn't make sense that the mecha of DYRL (circa 2030) would have fewer missiles than earlier variable fighters, but that's just me. Perhaps the new DeAgostini Macross Chronicle will provide some new figures.

I don't think I've seen micromissiles even launched singly at battlepods. AMM1s, yes, but not Micros. Getting 30 kills from 30 missiles doesn't seem to go with what is shown in DYRL.

For example, in the opening fight of DYRL, Hikaru and Max fire multiple missiles at each target. Hik first fires 10 from the underwing pods at 3 battlepods, Max fires 8-9 from the boosters at 3 pods, and then Hik fires a full load of 8 at a solitary pod (which shoots down the missiles and is killed by the gunpod)

As for fewer missiles later on, those missiles in the arm pods are much larger and I would assume more powerful. Maybe the Renegade mecha of the era required more powerful missiles.

Well here are the shots of Hikaru firing the missiles from the arm pods:

Max and Miliya fire at least 16 missiles from the boosters in the big battle, firing 4 volleys of 4 missiles.

I've seen the 3 arm-missile/12 booster missile VF-1 Strike art work:

Those are the arm pods with the bigger missiles that are even on the end. The other pods have smaller missiles that are staggered. The difference is easy to explain, when DYRL was 'filmed' in the 2030s they were using different missile pods.

There have been so much line art and diagrams published, can you really point to just one item and say this is the end-all, be-all of Macross? First I wanted to see if it was even possible to fit 12 missiles into the arms and 20 missiles into each booster. Turns out you can. Then it turns out you can actually fit 24-28 into each booster.

The SDFM animation shows the Armored VF launching 8 missiles per chest pod, VF-1 Spacewings Masterfile shows two types of chest pods, 1 with 8 missiles and 1 with 5 missiles. I don't see why there can't be two versions, one with 8 early (SDFM) micromissiles, and a later one with 5 bigger missiles (DYRL)

I've been messing around scaling the drawings of the VF-1 Super from the Spacewings Masterfile.

In SDFM Hikaru fired 12 missiles from each arm pod (6 pairs each) I took an image from the VF1 masterfile to see if it was feasible or anime magic

There's two types of arm pods. The one with the smaller missiles staggered at the front, and the one with bigger missiles that are even on the front.

So there's room for 12 missiles if they are 200mm dia x 750mm long.

The one with bigger missiles seems to have room for at least 5 missiles of 350mm dia x 1m long.

then, I wanted to see how many 20cm x 70cm missiles can fit in the boosterpods. Turns out, quite a few.

scale 150px=1m; the scale bar turned out to be exactly 20cm (scaled) in thickness so that made it really easy for me.

The exit ports are drawn a little too small at 22cm x 59cm

Both exit ports could stand to be shifted down slightly but I can work with them where they are.

With a full 3x4x2 magazine, feeding the exit ports from the outside edges won't work, but you can feed them from the center. Each horizontal 3x2 (6 missile) layer feeds one exit port, taking from the center missile, with the outer missiles feeding into the center. Each missile feeds forwards and then shifts left or right at an angle to meet the exit port. With one missile staged in each exit port, you can fit 28 missiles in each pod.

If there's no center column of missiles then the outer rows shift inwards and the exit ports are fed from the outer rows, for 20 missiles with one staged in each port. This number is supported by one of the old models which I used as the basis for this exercise: 2 missiles on each side backed by 2 columns of 4.

Thoughts?

Thanks, I kind of thought of it as a pre-Stampede configuration also.

This is an image from Macross Design Works, does the text give a description of the 6 missiles in each leg bay? They are bigger then the regular micromissiles, but much smaller then the high maneuver medium range missiles from M:+. There's no way 6 of those could fit in each leg.

Is there any info on the 4 barrel gatlings slung under the left wing and left hand of the VF-1 Supers in this art?

That's the CHM-2 high-speed missile. Isamu fires a pair of them at Guld during the opening stages of their dogfight over Earth. AFAIK, the only place they've been identified is in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur, on page 70.

Thank you!

Does anyone know what kind of missile this is in the YF-19s legs. It has a square cross section and it appears to be a 2 stage weapon

I tend to mentally slot M:II in around 2020. Last gasp of the destroids, not much defenses around earth, small defensive fleet, salvaged 'Macross Cannon' ships, new and untested VFs, inexperienced pilots all point to an event shortly after SW1. It can also be the trigger for the massive military build up going forwards in the timeline.

You have to handwave the destruction of the Macross or just replace it with a SDFN class in M:+ and onward.

Actually, looking at the construction of the railguns on the shoulder pods, it looks like an SDFN in M+ anyway.

The Variable Fighter Masterfile weapon & stores diagram for the VF25 shows 4 stations under the wing gloves and intakes.

Were these ever depicted in Frontier and how official is that diagram?

Thanks

But, that falls flat as a theory simply because the rest of

The later Macross stories visually use the elements from DYRL

Like Boldoza's ship and the SDF's. Plus I thought Kawamori said

DYRL is just SDFM in a Movie format, it's the same story/ time.

Just changed for theatrical needs (3 tier).

Midnight ramblings...

The DRYL moviemakers could have simply used what ships were available, like one of the SDFN class instead of the SDFM itself. Much like the 60's WWII movies didn't use the exact ships or aircraft that were depicted. They aren't going to rip the SDFM out of the center of Macross City just to make a film.

Does anyone know know or want to guess how many missiles are in the VF-27 FAST packs?

It looks like it has 2 MM ports on each leg and 7 ports on the Booster unit.

For wing hardpoints, I've settled on each HP being worth ~3 spaces of ordnance.

Sometimes I'll have 8 spaces with 1 HP for a 2 spc slot, ie VF171 with a triple rack(3spc), a rocket pod(3spc) and a single HM MRM(2spc) on each wing.

My VF-1 has 6 spaces on each wing. I needed to be able to have combinations of triple AAM-1s, 15 shot UUM7s, twin LRM/RMS-1, and single LRM/RMS (for a total of 3 per wing).

Some of the bigger missiles are 4 spaces, but nukes/reaction missiles are ridiculously expensive in CP in Mekton, especially in x10 scale.

I gave the VF-1 FAST boosters 20 missiles each. In the animation when Hikaru fires the missiles he fires at least 13 missile per side, and 12 more from each arm pod in 6 pairs each. When Max and Miria fire their booster missiles they each fire 4 volleys of 8 missiles. I rounded each one up to 20.

I'm handwaving most of the avionics right now. The mecha get main sensors in the head and LR radar in the nosecone with enough range to fire their normal missiles (usually 200km). Mecha that normally carry LRMs get longer ranged sensors (500km). LR radar can't be used in B mode since the nose cone is usually tucked away, but most mecha can't have missiles that can out range their basic sensors when in B mode anyway.

Basic Stealth gets to ignore enemy LR radar so they have a sweet spot between their own LR radar range and the enemy's basic sensor range where they can't be attacked.

I'm not certain how I want to handle active stealth. In theory I could make it a x.15 multiplier that completely screws main sensors and forces the enemy to rely on visual targeting for a -2 or -4 penalty, but IMO that is too powerful (but book legal; Active Cloak minus basic cloak since it doesn't effect visual)

ECM can be built as a penalty to enemy missile attacks, but it requires an action to activate. I'm thinking of using the Internal Automation rule to make the jamming automatic but that will increase the cost of the entire mecha by 20%. I may apply the IA multiplier to just the ECM system since its only for a single piece of equipment. -3 penalty ECM, 0 spaces, 6cp. the IA system to activate it takes 1 space and has a .2 multiplier so the whole thing would cost 7.2cp. That's too little for the benefit.

OTOH, I can just let the -4 penalty for firing beyond combat range stand in as blanket ECM and not worry about it.

I'm going with a 6 space bay on each side in the leg cover panels, normally holding a 2 spc SRM pallet and a 4 spc gun pod, either the GV17 or the BP14

The 4 spc gun pod can be replaced with a two 2spc missiles, or one 3 or 4 spc missile.

I unsure of my options to replace the 2 spc SRM pallet right now. I could have a single HM-MRM or LRM in it's place, or a 16 shot HMMM pallet. Or I can just build them in permanently and only worry about the 4 spce gunpod/missile bays.

The big missiles came out from directly behind the gunpod's firing ports so I don't see where else the gunpods could be stored except in those locations.

In M:+ the YF-21 fired nearly 80 missiles from the dorsal and FAST launchers. In M:7 Max fired 40 from the dorsal and leg cover launchers combined.

I think I'll just ignore it then and go with the two in the leg covers.

Thanks.

If I had to choose a location for the 3rd pallet bay I'd select the central portion of the blue area in this image:

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-22/colorcode-vf22.gif

Are PPBs on VFs ever used in Fighter mode or just in B mode?

Valharry- yes those and the ones used by Max too.

Sketchley-

Is the 3rd pallet bay ever used in animation? I'm inclined to ignore it at the moment, as it doesn't seem to be used at all. If I have to include it I may make it a 4spc bay w/o the capability of taking SRM launchers.

Max fired 20 missiles (of 40 total), a big missile and drew a gunpod in M7 from the ventral bays. If there was any ordnance in a 3rd pallet bay he completely ignored it.

One of the MW threads I've used as a reference:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=35986

Thanks for the replies.

I'm trying to build the VF-22 in Mekton. In M:7, Max fires 40 missiles from the VF-22. 20 from the dorsal launchers and 10 from each of the ventral launchers (5 volleys of 8 missiles).

Then there's the gunpod and the large missile also stored in the bays.

For the purposes of building the modular pallet system, I gave each bay 6 spaces. The 10 shot SRM pallet is 2 spaces and the gunpod is 4 spaces.

I have a 4 space x10 scale nuke missile as an option, as well as a 2 shot HM-MRM pallet also 4 spaces, each of which can take the place of the gunpod.

Does that sound reasonable? Suggestions?

Alternately I can just make the 10 shot SRMs fixed and only worry about the remaining 4 spaces, but it seems those are part of the pallet system.

Is there anything under the moving(?) panel on the outside of the Vf-3000 legs? Verniers or missiles?

It looks like the outer surface opens up slightly and exposes some things underneath in B mode.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossga/vf-3000/vf-3000-battroid-schematics.gif

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossga/vf-3000/vf-3000-fighter-multipleviews.gif

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossga/vf-3000/vf-3000-battroid-rear.gif

RTG still has it. They are working on a new edition with faster combat geared towards role playing instad of tabletop

http://rtalsoriangames.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/mekton-zero-the-designers-notes-2-3/#more-340

So let’s get things clear from the start—Mekton Zero isn’t going to replace Mekton Zeta andZeta Plus. It’s actually meant to enhance them. See, M-Zeta and Zeta+ are great construction systems. You can build freaking anything with them—I have seen hardcore gearheads make toasters with the system just to prove it’s possible. If the parts aren’t there in Zeta, you can even use Zeta+ to MAKE the parts you’ll need in Zeta. So it’s incredibly cool and flexible.

What it isn’t is roleplaying friendly.

...

So Mekton Zero uses several tricks to simplify this process; a unified hit system derived in part from theMekton SI system in the Mekton Referee’s Screen; several multi-layered damage systems that can be resolved by rolling dice instead of ticking off numbers, and an attack system that modularizes combat into “katas” that accurately reflect a series of actions in a single technique rather than a series of discrete moves. All of these changes are designed to speed combat and better simulate the action you would actually see in a real mecha anime show.

Mekton was, after all, designed to be a roleplaying game, not a tabletop wargame. So by adding afilter level to the original rules; the gaming equivalent of a simple programming language translating underlying binary code, roleplayers can now concentrate on the activities of roleplaying, not mecha building, mecha book keeping and tabletop wargame mechanics.

I've gone back and cleaned up some things.

I researched all the gunpods and tried to bring them into a structured order.

I put the gunpods into the pdf w hardpoint missiles and FAST packs as well as with each appropriate mecha

Gunpods that only do 1 damage get tracer ammo, Gunpods that do 2 or more damage get AP ammo.

I added the AAMS-02 advanced SRMs to the Hdpt missiles list

The VF-22 has to use the hdpt bays to hold the gunpods unless carrying missiles

Fold Booster is designed as a FTL Mecha Rider that can attach to a VF weighing up to 80 tons. When attached the VFs MV is -3.

I'm sharing the folder instead of individual files to make it easier to keep up with changes, so check back every now and then.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2MWVpzB0HSIcjdnbjRXMDVxS28&usp=sharing

In Japanese, the two terms are interchangeable.

Well so much for that idea

Thanks

I read that discussion also. Those firearms are caseless, not cartridgeless. The term cartridge refers to the complete round of ammunition, and a complete caseless round is also referred to as a cartridge.

from wiki:

A cartridge (also called a round or a shell) is a type of ammunition packaging a bullet, a propellant substance (usually either smokeless powder or black powder) and a primer within a metallic, paper, or plastic case that is precisely made to fit within the firing chamber of a firearm.^[1] The primer is a small charge of an impact-sensitive or electric-sensitive chemical mixture that can be located at the center of the case head (centerfire ammunition), inside a rim (rimfire ammunition), or in a projection such as in a pinfire or teat-fire cartridge. Military and commercial producers also make caseless ammunition. A cartridge without a bullet is called a blank. One that is completely inert (contains no active primer and no propellant) is called a dummy.

Modern caseless ammunition consists of a solid mass of propellant, originally nitrocellulose, cast into shape to form the body of the cartridge, with cavities to accept the bullet and a primer, preferably combustible, which are glued into place. The completed cartridge might also contain a booster charge of powdered propellant, to help ignite the body and provide initial thrust to the bullet.^[1]

Many caseless cartridges are also telescoped, with the bulk of the bullet held within the body of the cartridge, to cut down on cartridge length. A shorter cartridge cuts down on the distance the firearm's action must reciprocate to load a new round, which allows for higher cyclic rates and greater probability of multiple hits on a target at long range.

While making the assumption that they meant caseless is logical, I wanted to discuss what if it actually is 'cartridgeless'

A railgun or coilgun fires projectiles, but doesn't use cartridges.

Thanks for the reply.

I did a search for the VF-22s alternate BP-14 gunpod and found a discussion in an archived newbie thread about it and the 'cartridgeless' GV-17L.

To take that description at face value, is it possible the gunpods are railguns? The ammo fired by a railgun is not a cartridge, and it would help explain why it does not have a 'GU' designation.

I have a couple questions after looking at videos of transforming models on YT:

1) Can the arm lasers on the VF-22 fire to the rear in Fighter mode? to the front?

2) Does the VF-25 Tornado pack have 4 micromissile launchers per wing? 3 on top and one on the bottom? There is a elongated hexagon on the bottom just like the three on the top.

3) Are the big elongated hexagons on top of the Tornado's mid-wing pods more (medium range?) missile launchers?

Thanks