Aries Turner

Without solid proof, I think both Macross F and Delta series are for gathering funds for the respective movies, cutting out all the ideas that failed in the series.

So, if I read right, although dropping somewhat structural integrity from VF-22 record 40G, the entire VF-2X family, the SV-262 and the firsts VF-3X are all in the 60G tolerance range (1) by improving active dampening systems, if piloted remotely, by cyborg or to the death. Now I see why in Delta, Battroid mode is almost forgotten: from VF-0 structural limits to Battroid mode, only a relatively small amount of energy would be lost to be able to transform. At VF-2X and VF-3X flight profiles, transforming to Battroid mode would involve losing a lot of energy very fast, deliberately.

In other words: Macross is becoming duller because of realism. And reasons. Reasons, too.

(1) By matching VF-22 structural integrity, the YF-29 reach 70G tolerance.

Curiously, the Draken III seems to be using an improved/enhanced variant of the same Inertia Store Converter employed in the VF-25 Messiah (ISC/TO21). The original TO21 was rated for 27.5G, and the TO21G used by the Draken III apparently offers a 12% improvement over the original model in terms of buffered g-forces. That puts it in the same league as the YF-29's ISC/TO22, which was rated for 30G.

Sorry for abusing your inside knowledge of the saga yet again, but it allways has confused me how the VF-25 g tolerances actually *dropped* from YF-19,-21 and VF-19,-22 numbers. Is that a *proof* that the VF-24 is a beast and VF-25,-26,-27,-29,-30,-31 are the F-16 Block 5-10 of the series: upgrades from colonial Star Mirages or VF-9s?

From all the virturoid forms of Sharon Apple, this one. During Earth concert she turns her head as Mikumo did. Not this scene, though, but I don't have the movie.

There were some things I liked about this episode:

a) Berger, as a civilian, is kept mainly in the dark on military affairs, but keeps asking here and there to put the pieces together and get the whole picture, to great effect.

b) If my memory not falters as usual, at Mikumo intro, when she looks backwards to the girls for the first time, her eyes and attitude resemble a promotional Sharon Apple virturoid pose. Doesn't mean anything, it could be Kawamori trolling, as when Ozma gets his Pineapple Salad.

Without cheats like running the energy conversion armor in fighter mode or using the pin-point barrier, ~Mach 5 is pretty much the lower atmosphere speed limit for VFs due to atmospheric friction-heating of the fuselage. The few fighters noted to be able to exceed that don't seem to carry ordinance out on the wings (e.g. VF-27, YF-29).

In the end, maybe there was a reason as to why the Kairos only had two hardpoints or the gunpod is partially shielded by the VF main body. Sure, having to extend for a clear shot before firing may seem a disadvantage, but the same is true for the VF-27 or YF-30 beampod that have to open before firing. It also can be deployed early on, at the penalty of air friction in the same levels as a regular gunpod.

>I don't know why you keep repeating the bit about the connection to Escaflowne

It simply annoys me a little, as the Ka-Bars do. I even learnt about the trivia in your website, and me liking the VF-9 is related to it originally being intended for something other than Macross.

>Nein, there's a Queadluun-Rhea in the first episode... Mikumo cures the pilot's Var syndrome a minute or so into Forbidden Borderline.

I thought it was the Regult with Q-Rhea lookalike arms previously seen. Thanks for correcting my mistake.

[Edit]: I have reviewed #1 and it certainly was a Zentran Q-Rhea. However, an interesting animation mistake is committed as Mikumo extends her arm towards the Q-Rhea faceplate and a Regult eye is shown instead.

gg Macross Delta (Preview Special) - 01 E4E85FC6.mkv_snapshot_18.02_2016.01.14_12.49.52.jpg

queadluun-rhea-green.jpg

The ones used by the 33rd Marines on Gallia 4 were Queadluun-Rhea. What really think it's exclusive to Pixie Squad?

NUNS Space Marines have them in their arsenal.

Redwolf you just beat me to the punch......lol. I even screenshot the exact same scene......

We might actually get some mecha combat...IN THE FORM OF A FRAKIN FLASHBACK.

the twins might as well not be present for all the relevance they have

Keith is almost an exact copy of Folken, darkened wings included. Bogue is Dilandau, to a detail. However, the twins presence are nowhere near Eriya and Nariya. Looked almost like another direct reference, but without any substance.

They will do with Delta what they did with Frontier: keep what worked for the movies. Destroy the memory of the rest.

I expect #21 to hit big and hard: all the conspirators will be uncovered, Keith will confront Roid, someone would answer about what Mikumo really is, all in the middle of a counter-attack by federal forces against anyone and everything in the sector now that they gathered most data and are ready to reap the product. Nobody would hit the cell, because there will be no time to jail anyone.

[half-joking]

Oh, and the VF-28 would be the production version of the federal YF-24, as a obscure reference to "Top Gun" MiG-28.

[/half-joking]

In fairness, Earth plans went surprisingly well. The VF-1 was on par with Aerial Battlepods and Regults. What went wrong, horribly wrong, was that the Macross was not one of their main battleships, but one of the smallest destroyers. Earth entire fleet was too small, sitting ducks against mostly superior firepower, except some sinkings by reaction weaponry. Of course we now know Zentrans never repaired or even understood the technology they were using. They still moped most of the galaxy, by sheer numbers but also because after 500.000 years, their mechas didn´t fall so far behind whatever their pitiful opposition throwed against them in vain attempts of survival. The Protoculture and their mind control gone, the Vajra and Protodevilns mostly dormant, they hadn´t hard opposition for millennia.

To war, miclones! Victory for the Zentraedi!

• VF-31A Kairos (Gripen E relocated landing gear could be Kawamori inspiration to relocate arms/gear)
• VF-1S Jetfire, best Autobot ever. Later I knew why it kicked Starscream silly blockish F-15 ass.
• VF-29A Yeah, VF- and A. Someone painted his YF-29 in light gray and shared on internet.
• VF-4 It may be ugly, but it sure is ugly.
• VF-9 No love for this one? Only inverted wing VF I like (besides the non-canon VF-29A)
• VF-5000 Only stealth lookalike I like (F-22 Manta).
• VF-25G APS-25A/MF25 Not sure if Klan piloted an armored one in the series
• VB-6 Counts as a heavy valkyrie, right?
• SV-262Ba Beauty of coolness J-35 Draken, not as bombastic as Fz-109 or Az-130. Pity it does not have Hs head without the spiky wings
• VA-3M

[Edit]VF-171EX and VF-11B dropped from my list, as VF-31A is as down to business as the former and have as similar a head as the latter.

While Macross is metafiction Macross II has its own timeline.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&u=https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスシリーズ&usg=ALkJrhhpmGka40-IHunoc-W3cjOI3jy-Hw

I am OK with VF development achieving parity with the Q-Rau around 2036 in an alternate timeline. A little earlier than Kawamori timeline, but that is OK. What I fail to understand is how it could mean the Q-Rau are not the badasses we are shown they are?

Or why build the Q-Rhea if a VF-22 was enough? (*)

(*) It may be a cultural thing, as zentrans seemed not so fond of the Q-Rhea to the point to demand Regults with select Q-Rhea systems or Glaugs with Q-Rhea based arms instead (and two main guns)..

There's an unspoken asterisk on your remark here... you're not personally aware of a Macross title depicting Queadluun-Raus being shot down by rookies, but just because you haven't seen a thing doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It happened fairly often in the Macross II timeline titles

Sorry, forgot this one. As Macross II happens (or not) way after VF-22, VF-25 and VF-31 are long time classics, around 2090 I think, it could be argued that by that time the Q-Rau performance was way surpassed.

So... it's fun technical tidbit time again!

I´m loving those already.

the gunpod's line of fire is obstructed in fighter mode (it has to drop down to fire)

You know you could have dropped this before and make this conversation shorter. Never mind: it is fun as it is. For me, at least.

Chainguns? I'm gonna assume you mean "beam machine guns".

No, I mean both. I am under the impression that it is stated somewhere that VF-25 and maybe VF-27 mount chainguns OR beam machine guns, depending on mission needs. Those are even given different designation when equipped.

Unlike the beam gun pod of the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30, the VF-31's beam gun pod has not demonstrated any increased-firepower mode for anti-ship use.

True. It is also true that VF-31 power output is not significantly lower than VF-27 output (4312.5KN vs 5508KN. The VF-31 figure include that 15% overboost), so if that beampod is unable to manage that kind of power levels, some other beampod could be equipped instead.

About the mini-missiles, pointing out we don´t know if a pod is there on the design table to launch a whole Q-Rau Itano Circus salvo is... pointless. We already know there is a pod to transport priority personnel, so why not?

Roy Focker also destroyed several Q-Rau's in his last engagement.

Another war ace. That makes four after Jenius, Basara and Aegis Focker. Five if you count former -Rau pilot Millia. Anywhere else the -Raus were savaging everyone.

They had enough space that they could easily afford to fit a dedicated gun for the fighter to use in dogfights without compromising the rest of the design.

What is compromised here, and as an engineer you should know, is complexity, maintenance, total cost of the airframe and whatnot. Every ounce of equipment you add worsens the thrust/weight ratio. If more space is gained, cool for the special ops fighters. But grunt fighters need less gadgetry, not more.

Mind you, it's been shown that the VF-19, VF-25, etc. can bring those guns to bear fairly easily in battroid mode given a target of similar size.

Not as easily and naturally as pointing an arm, whatever the size and the range of the target. Besides, maybe Basara fired from the hip mounted root wing cannons, but I do not recall Alto firing from the hip swivel cannons.

the VF-31's railguns are depicted with a high rate of fire... so it's going to consume ammunition at a significant rate. Its bore is pretty large, so that's going to limit the amount of ammo it can carry as well.

False again. VF-31 cannons are not shown firing faster than chaingun GU-11 pods. Besides, if those are not railguns but coilguns, the bore is only the diameter of the coils, the metal rods being of any diameter that fits, mostly subcaliber.

Considering the mess the VF-31's railguns made of Uroh's Sv-262, it seems like they're firing Anti-ECA rounds instead of an inert kinetic slug.

Any metal rod, even a smaller one, depleted uranium or not, fired by a railgun have such amount of kinetic energy as speed alone that explosive warheads add nothing. It is that brutal.

The VF-31's hands don't retract into the arms

That means no special mount, no retracting gear, no special reinforcement,...

Compared to a laser cannon, beam machine gun, or converging energy cannon, all of which would have effectively limitless endurance as long as the engines are running and/or the capacitors are charged, it seems like an odd choice to make the VF-31's dogfighting gun a weapon that can run out of ammo.

Do you remember you were trying to imply that a beampod wasn't enough and more kinetic missiles are guns were needed, as in every other VF? Do you? It is not only that you are forgetting about the beampod of the VF-31 or its use as a Tornado/YF-29 turreted gun, but that having such a beampod, arm cannons as slug-thrower fallback and a reconfigurable pod was the whole point about why it may have only two hardpoints. So yeah, I agree with you here. I am not so sure you'll agree with yourself, however.

About the Q-Rau, lets agree to disagree.

In conclusion:

• The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves slug-throwing capability and a degree of redundancy with two railguns, where any other VF use a gunpod and two or even four chainguns.
• The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves anti-fighter and anti-ship quantum beam capability with a gunpod, where other designs use two beam chainguns, a turret and/or a battery powered beam cannon.
• The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves a high count of missiles by using integral mini-missile launchers and a pod that could mount a huge payload of those, a medium sized payload and a beampod, or special bombs or missiles when/if used as a bomb bay.
• The VF-31A/B achieves all this with a minimum of system redundancy, keeping TCO low, in a lightweight fighter, on par with a gunpod equipped VF-25.

Buy one today and get a commemorative T-shirt!

The VF-11 has a gun pointing forward in fighter mode... it's a high-powered 30mm rotary cannon firing Anti-ECA shells.

Yeah, the gunpod, my point. Exactly what I was saying: every VF since VF-11 had mounted some form of cannon on awkward turrets or fixed impractical position when in battroid just to supplement the gunpod when in fighter mode. The VF-31A is the first that can make use of those in battroid mode other than firing from the hips or moving the entire chest or hoping for an overflight (as the VF-27 nacelle cannons).

The VF-31's forearm guns are impractical for their own reasons, being that the gun has to rotate 180 degrees to remain usable and being a railgun firing high velocity hard rounds means the weapon's ammunition is aggressively limited by its mounting out on the forearm.

That is false and you even dedicated a thread to the ammunition issue (or wasn't you?): a railgun round is fast. It is not forced to have a high rate of fire. It could have, but is not forced to. And ammunition is lighter, as it is only the "bullet", not the casing, nor the chemical propellant, not even a warhead or a fuze. VF-31A hands also don't retract into the arms, so there is plenty of space there for the usual amount of rounds. Rotation presents issues only in being precise to not affect aiming: rotary ammunition feeders do exist nowadays in the form of FN P90.

There's nothing to indicate the Q-Rau is anything like as uber as you contend that it is. We've seen that Q-Raus piloted by elite top aces are equal to the capabilities of VFs piloted by elite top aces, but there's no indication that fodder-piloted units exhibit "game-breaking" performance.

No rookie pilot ever defeated a -Rau, whatever the ride, before the VF-25. I concede however that no -Rau was ever piloted by any Meltran that could be considered a rookie: every -Rau pilot was an ace, feared rightfully by their Zentran counterparts.

The third section sounded a bit snarky on review, so I've revised it to the helpful tone I intended. Sorry for that.

It seemed pretty educative: as others said, I would like to be able to read the Master Files.

You implied a casual relationship between the VF-11 having no built-in forward gun and the VF-14's VF-4-style beam cannons.

Your point, not mine. Mine is that from VF-14 onward some kind of additional cannons are mounted to supplement a head turret now pointing backwards. VF-31A is the first one that don't involve lots of cannons in awkward turrets or impractical fixed positions when in battroid mode.

Considering the ones in the VF-22 are converging energy cannons

Ah, OK, I thought those to be kinetic. So just coilguns again to accelerate charged particles.

the Rhea itself is a significant improvement over the Q-Rau model it replaced in terms of engine power, maneuverability, armament, etc.

I was under the impression it was a successful replication with slight improvements. Possibly you are correct on this one. Or not.

The VF-19 and VF-22 certainly seemed to be at least on par with Queadluun-Rau units in Macross 7

No, those weren't. AFAIK only Max Jenius or Basara (or Aegis Focker if counting games) have defeated Queadluuns, and that victories are more a testament of superb piloting than comparable machines.

Officially, they're railguns... but that makes them kinetic energy weapons. Technically the beam gun is too, since it's firing a beam of heavy quantum, which relies on kinetic energy to deal damage.

Technically, you are correct, since charged particle beams are... well... accelerated particles. Coilguns are less prone to friction problems than railguns (and somewhat wider), but if it is stated those are railguns and somehow have solved the issue, railguns those are. I was making the distinction between laser weaponry and chemical impact weapons, being those slugs or missiles. Failed to acknowledge the fact that particle beams are not lasers (the same reason Star Wars 'lasers' are not lasers, but corellian folks also fail to make the distinction). And including coilguns and railguns as obviously kinetic slug-throwers: I've never said the weaponry was changed outright to all beams. I only pointed the Kairos had a slug-thrower fallback if beams proved ineffectual for whatever the circumstance, so Kairos are not forced to always be issued a gunpod as all the VFs before it (except the VF-27 and its beampod. The YF-30 also was not issued a gunpod but a beampod, but had no slug-thrower fallback either: beams or bust).

You're drawing a conclusion based on an assumption.

So do you. I am not pointing the obvious thing that Chaos Squadrons are not being issuing missiles other than mini. I am pointing out that two hardpoints are not necessarily too few. The F-15E Strike Eagle mount six bombs, an AMRAAM and a Sidewinder in each of its two wing pylons.

As far as the number of hardpoints, it's a safe bet it's meant to have four... and the art department just screwed up.

I saw the very same assumption in this forum regarding the failure to draw VF-31 landing gear doors. It turned out it was a false assumption, as the landing gear was relocated to what used to be ramjet intakes (in the VF-1).

The Master File writeup indicates that the VF-25 was in service in large numbers by 2065.

I stand corrected. Certainly mostly was in my head, as expected if the warning 'non-canon' is issued. I could also point I was making no connection between the VF-11 and the VF-14, but pointing the differences in weaponry. And cost. But that is unimportant.

However:

You HAVE seen the VF-22, right? That also has forearm-mounted guns and shields, and it's literally modeled on the Queadluun-Rau in both stylistic and technological terms.

Yeah. Double ended cannons, however you magically engineer those (also in VF-17 forearms). But unimportant again, as it is stated that even the VF-22 was no match for the Queadluun, the VF-25 stated as being the first almost on par with the Rau or the Rhea. ALMOST. [Edit]: Actually, the opposite is true. The VF-25 is stated as superior to the Rhea in maneuverability. It may be implied it is the first one to do so, as the difference in power output with the VF-22 is so great. It may well not be. True, the VF-22 was all about taking as much of the Rau as possible, but that doesn't mean it achieved parity either, but rather a first implementation. It could be said that the Rhea is the result.

Depending on when the VF-24 went into production, that would make the VF-27 the first or second, the VF-25 the third, and the VF-31 the fourth.

If you are stating this, you are possibly right. I find it unbelievable that the monstrosity of engineering that is the VF-27, however beautiful, made into long run production. Unless you are talking about Macross Galaxy short run (and demise of the project).

I'm also unsure why you're praising the Kairos for abandoning kinetic weapons when it still maintains two solid ammo cannons on the forearms.

Surely I have not explained myself. In this thread it is stated that VF-31 forearm cannons are most probably coilguns. What I am stating here is that those seem to be suitable enough to abandon kinetic gunpods, adopting instead a beam pod that feed on the power surplus of the engines, and *that* beam pod making obsolete most medium range kinetic missiles (but not MDE or reaction long range ones). All that to retcon why *may* the Kairos have only two hardpoints, having an internal bomb bay (in the form of a pod, when not using it as a beam turret). I could as well point that multi-ordinance hard point are not unheard off, if you remember the F-14 and F-15 lonely two wing pylons. It is also an engineering saying that perfection is not attained when nothing more could be added to the design (as in YF-29), but when nothing more could be subtracted of it. With wing portions used as integral shields, some of the wing is more than dead weight backpack. Making the fighter mode cannons double as lightweight gunpods, no rookie pilot could miss grabbing a gunpod midflight. It seems easier to pilot to me. BUT if the VF-25 was deployed in numbers by 2065, that is a fact. And mine was wishful speculation and I was wrong. OK, I have no problem with that.

Oh and on that topic, it would really be great if Lady M was Myung. Because I'd totally love seeing her KICK ASS for once. She has the brains and she has the guts. She can do much more than just save one loose cannon pilot from her own Vocaloid. (As an aside I still think Sharon was more misguided and confused than malicious).

Wow. Even I, who tries to stay optimistic for every episode found this one sub-par. The animation quality was terrible and lacking any detail and seemed like nothing but 20 minutes of dialogue.

Variable Fighter Master File and Variable Fighter Episode Archive both suggested that it [VF-25] would/should be by now... though their "not official setting" status means that has to be taken with a grain of salt until confirmed elsewhere, though it is practically a given (IMO) that the Macross Frontier NUNS forces have started to adopt the VF-25 by now.

Maybe not. Kawamori choice of VF-171 as grunts because VF-19s were too much hero unit offers a (non-canon) alternative. VF-11 were really intended to be replaced with unmanned fighters. When that proved badly premature, UNS choose the simpler of the two alternatives. When fielded, it proved so costly (weapon systems redundancy, engines able to achieve orbit,...) it replaced VF-17s, not VF-11s. VF-22 would be even more expensive. General Galaxy came with the VF-171, sturdy and simple.

Enter the YF-24, YF-25, VF-25, YF-27, VF-27, YF-29 and YF-30. Basically the same platform with different applications, an industry of prototypes. Although the VF-25 was the most versatile, magnetic actuators, weapon redundancy (more on this later), ISC, EXGear and advanced armor allowed for a short production run, mostly a temperamental plane used by ace private pilots to try even more exotic packs like the Tornado. NUNS opted instead for the VF-171EX, without matching VF-25 capabilities but not falling so far behind.

As for weapon redundancy, VF-1 head lasers doubled as fallback fighter cannon. VF-11 could only use the gunpod. To address the issue VF-14s included shoulder guns, VF-17 and VF-171 used torso guns, VF-19 and VF-25 used awkward to aim when in battroid mode hip mounted guns. VF-27 used guns that were mostly dead weight when in battroid mode, fixed and pointing straight up. Enter the Kairos: shields and gunpods you don´t need to actively equip that double as fighter guns and may make a meltran feel at home in a VF for the first time ever. An optional gunpod that doubles as Tornado/YF-29 turret if the need arise. The Kairos is the first design since the VF-11 where nothing more could be removed without degrading the design, most technologies proven and tested in previous prototypes. Even dispenses with the need of a specialized RVF variant. Kairos may be the first VF in ages that seems simple enough to be mass manufactured in long runs.

Lack of hardpoints is somewhat puzzling, but not when considering the large hangar bay (pod), the beam weaponry taking over the kinetic weapons role and the packs ability to include more hardpoints. Chaos wasn´t so invested into beam weaponry and added two hardpoints just to be in the safe side. It turned out those are really mostly superfluous.