Noyhauser

I would LOVE to see the Sweedish hangers built into the sides of mountains to protect them. I thought it was an ingeneous idea to deal with a first strike threat.

I think that VFs should be dirty. This isn't a normal modern jet fighter. They roll on the ground, dig their engines into earth kicking up dirt, dive into the sea, ect. Neither does dirt affect them as much as other fighters. They aredesigned to be extremely tolerent of all environments. A bit of dirt here and there won't really do much.

Had nothing to do with Macross

I really do not get these statements.

Did I not post two pages ago why it was more macross along macross's real meaning than say macross plus?

Do people not read?

The gun never actually became a factor as the F-4E later proved...Cunningham's 3 kill mission was without a gun too although it was handy to have one around.

I'd disagree on a few of your statements. During Vietnam, it was found that missiles especially heavy radar guided missiles like the Sparrow were not as effective as close range weapons, like the sidewinder. The highest kill to loss ratio aircraft was the F-8. Didn't have a sparrow on it. Machine guns were useful though, and they contributed to some kills.

Your point on training is a major problem. The reason why the F-8 was so successful was that they had close combat training, while a lot of other pilots didn't. I seem to recall this was a problem for F-4 drivers. I don't have the book with me so don't shoot me on that one.,

Also the ROE was there partly not because of Political reasons, but techincal ones. IFF was garbage, and there were a lot of instances of Blue on Blue incidents. ROE was instituted to ensure that these didn't happen. This is why the F-16 (which tried to embody the lessons of Vietnam) was initially designed not to have the Sparrows at all, but to rely completely on the Sidewinder and the Vulcan.

Ground bombing was fairly inaccurate at this time. You were often lucky to get CEPs in 50 feet, more like in the 100s. The first use of Laser Guided PGMs are seen in early 70s and that would revolutionize things, but not soon enough. The Paul Doumer Bridge really was the first time these weapons were use with spectacular results. These were critical bridges in the north that were heavily defended, and the had cost many air crew to take out. However I think it was the USAF was never successful in dropping more than one bridge, or one span. in 72 they bring in I think it was the Paveway I a first generation laser guided bomb. First attack with the PAveway cost no crews, and dropped all three spans. IT harkens the day now, where we talk about one bomb, one target, when in 1944 over 85% of all bombs missed their targets.

I'll be perfectly honest, I like CAS/bombing ect, missions. Hell, one of my favorite games was Aces over the Pacific, and my favorite thing to do was go take out shipping.

"spent a lot of time with his head in the toilet puking his guts out over what a crappy show it was"

Welcome to the club man....

Thank you....for a while there I was starting to think I was the only one. Until that series, I really thought that I would love anything Maross.

My opinion of Macross 7 is that it has a great story with lots of potential... on paper it was fine, but the way it is presented (ie. the show) is just a fruit cake circus, full of chesse, stupid designs, sissy characters, shamefull enemies and a really anoying lack of respect to what macross was... just MHO.

now back to the tread

HAHAHA!!! Preech on my man. I am lovin the fact that there are some members with balls around here. Most who hate M7 are tired of discussing it so they don't say anything, but just think of the horror if some n00b showed up and read up on a pro-m7 thread... He would see it and then think ALL Macross fans were lame-ass sissie girlie-men. OUR mission is of the utmost importance.

Uh-Oh, it's starting all over again...

CRITICAL MASS ACHIEVED!

ITs undoubtedly the most original valk. As I said, its the only one with the man in head design, its engines are not located in its legs. No other valk is this original. But its still FUGLY. I think this valk more than any other has the idea beauty in purpose attached to it. ITs a lot like the A-10, designed for a purpose, however ugly it may be.

double post

I like both versions of the VF-1A head, but the DYRL version looks cooler. Between the VF-22 and the 21, I like the ugly circle-eye-thing way better than that stupid Geordie LaForge visor. My favourite head has got to be the VF-1S...but wait, we're talking about the ugliest head right? Then hands down, Basara's head...I mean his Valk's head is the ugliest thing in the entire Macross franchise.

Faces should stay off of Valks. Funny, I can accept transformers with mouths, but not Valks.

I realize Graham explained the whole face thing, as did several other members, but why do civilians need Valkries? That's like me buying an F-14 and flying it around for fun, or maybe an M1 Abrams tank with a happy face painted on in and driving it to work. What business do I have in either of those machines? Unless of course I was filthy rich, I could then do pretty much whatever I wanted with my money....Michael Jackson does do freaky things with his money.

Makes me wonder if he even watched the series at all...

I'm suprised that HG didn't patent that and make it the VF-1YXV Joe Blow fighter, like they did with every other animation mistake.

you really think that it looks more advanced? I think when you look at the hasegawa models, (especially the size difference) you really gain an appreciation of which one is more advanced than the other. The VF-0 is so large, and it looks somewhat antiquated with holed airbrakes, and less sleek design. (maybe thats just my perception of it)

Looking at both SW prototypes, is there names attached to their makers? Because one looks like a predecesor to the VF-19, and the other looks like a cross between a vf-1 and 11

I actually think the Zero was a excellent design, especially when you had to think about the problem of not making the VF-1 obsolete. If the SW was made to be the VF-0 (when it looks far more futuristic)... it would be considered munchkinesque.

With its wing design, I'd say it was a predecessor to the VF-11, incorporating elements of the VF-1.... if it doesn;t have a extensive back history already. I always thought of the VF-11 as really a VF-1 design philosophy (similar weapons, and transformation) with upgrades.

as I said before, I think the circle looks better when you think about the special control and sensor systems that the YF-21 incorporated. I always thought of the visor as just a downgrade from the 21's special systems.

Hahah, space pope, thats a great name for it Ewilen

the Invader I think is the only man in head design of all the Valks.

I REALLY liked the YF-21 head. I think it really went along well with its design, utilizing different sensors because of its control systems. I think the 22's head was a definate downgrade. And the VT-1 was interesting as well.

I think the VF-9 and 14 could have better heads, they would be my choice for the worst. the VF-9's head was the only thing I didn't like about the design. The Soundforce ones I didn't mind because they made sense given their intent.

(not that I will be going)

Somebody totally should. Thats the thing I love about Hasegawa, and what it has done for Macross. I think its really brought it into the view of more traditional aircraft modelers who might not be interested in anime, but are looking for something different to build... when they can get their hands on the merchandise. The Macross series is arguably Hasegawa's finest 1/72 line right now (with the exception of their new two engined WW2 line). A year ago I showed an Unbuilt YF-21 to an vetran aircraft modeler who I was friends with, and he was extremely impressed by it. This was a guy who was in his late 50s who had never watched an anime in his life, but he loved the quality and the feel of the design.

'll say this--the climactic decision by Hikaru in favor of Misa, combined with him convincing Minmay to sing for the final battle, is a better dramatic moment in DYRL compared to SDF Macross. (I wonder if they ever were going to do it that way in SDF, but had to change things at the last minute because the TV show was renewed for another 9 episodes.) But, again, most of the characterization which gives weight to the scene is carried over from the series; the movie itself does a poor job of showing why Minmay is so hooked on Hikaru, and why he should be so conflicted between her and Misa.

Exactly I don't think SDF had the same "dramatic conclusion" to the love triangle as DYRL (hell DYRL pulled out the SLOW MO for it...), but that was wholly because we knew that Misa and hikaru had such a deep relationship because of SDF. On its own there wasn't the same buildup of emotions, like the whole Misa cleaning up Hikaru's apartment scene, or Minmay's perfume. These things made it all the more deeper.

Dunno what pacing you're talking about, but I think you're looking at it from TV-fan pov. It'll be off coz you expected this and that based on the TV, but you find out the DYRL-movie doesn't do that. Depending on your pov, that's a smarter move by Kawamori for me.

Maybe if you read almost every other person's post on here, you'll see that its not the fact that DYRL is "different" that bothers people, it is the fact that it is dependent upon to TV series to give it depth and understanding. As a stand alone piece it is not as great a movie as it is with the foreknowledge of the TV series.

Also don't make vague assumptions that I'm or others maintain a biased TV-fan POV; thats been mine and most other people's point the whole way along. I don't know where you got the idea in your head that we worship it as the be all and end all. Realistically speaking, DYRL is just visual eyecandy for macross fans. Thats what Kawamori intended it to be, because he was unhappy about the budget he had for the TV series. I can't see how you can argue that a movie has a better storyline and character development than a TV series, especially a Japanese TV series at that (which focus more on storytelling than syndication). You don't get accustomed to characters after a short 15 minute scene, as you do over a 15 episode arc. The TV series gave the events of DYRL gravity and enhanced its meaning greatly.

All other Macross-series will not have the same allure without having some familiarity from SDF-TV. One will ask what the heck's that big robot-thingy ship taken over by Sharon and why was it important. In M7, who was Max and Milia and why were they important.

So you see, that argument just doesn't cut it to apply or even discriminate against DYRL. All Macross canon-series requires some prior familiarity with SDF-TV stuff.

Thats a complete distortion of the reality, which you are trying to do to prove your point. The history of SDF and DYRL are completely intertwineded because THEY DESCRIBE THE SAME EVENTS WITH THE SAME CHARACTERS. while one does in a TV series, the other one tries to cram it all into a 2 hour movie.

For the others, the links are far less tenuous. Plus and Zero only use minor plot elements from the others. Is it vital that you knew that the Macross was a famous battleship that won a war 40 years ago? Not really. It only shows up in the final episode, and its centrality to the story (ie without knowing its history your understanding of the story would be significantly impared) is minimal. Its completely not like the Ghost, or Sharon, who are the primary antagonists that were introduced throughout the movie/oav. What links are there between SDF and Zero that require you to know about the other, when zero is a prequel? Oh we got new technology from it? Actually I think watchers need to see macross 7 more to understand Macross zero than they do the TV series.

*sigh*. You know, I dunno if you actually did watched Macross and it's contemporaries when they were all being shown the first time around to actually make a statement like that.

I always had this theory about why Gundam still suckered in fans (jaded fans and newbies) even tho it's almost always the same regurgitated and recycled Tomino-storyline. And I found that, despite the same regurgitated and recycled Tomino-storyline, the Gundam-animation just gets better and better with each re-implementation of the same boring base-storyline of 0079.

Actually I did. Macross was one of the first series I ever watched, because I had family members sending me these tapes on beta. And I know from the people I have spoken to in Japan that it had a major impact. It is still highly regarded as an excellent piece of animation, poor flaws at all.

I'm sorry treatment, but I'm going to have to disagree with pretty much everything you have said these last two pages. Almost everybody on here even me AND Agent one (shocking!) agree that DYRL did not do a great job on story. If anything its pacing was completely off.

As I said earlier in this thread, to me Anime is a medium to tell a story, and I'd rather watch piss poor animation with a great story than amazing animation with terrible storytelling. Maybe you enjoy it for its superficiality but I don't. My favorite series is Heldensagen Vom Kosmenief, and its got some poor animation going for it. However its absolutely brilliant as a story, and I appreciate it on those grounds. And SDF as well. However in all honesty, DYRL would not have the same allure if it was not preceeded by SDF.

Take for example Misa. Hikaru's choice in SDF makes WAAAAAAAY more sense then it does in DYRL to go with Misa. In DYRL, shes a cold hearted Bxtch most of the movie, then for 30 seconds shows vulnerablilty and hooks up with Hikaru. And from this He bases his "deep love" for her over Minmay? Uhhh yeah. In the movie, Minmay is a far more mature girl, who makes her feelings for Hikaru clear and treats him with affection.

In SDF Minmay is really a immature dithering girl that can't make up her mind. We really get a sense of that. Hikaru who is also immature at the beggining of the movie likes her. But as he gets older he falls more and more for misa (and goes through several important experiences with her.) Then Hikaru falls back on his old ways after the space war... but makes the right choice at the end. It makes far more sense in SDF than DYRL.

Every other part of the story makes far more sense in SDF. Claudia's relationship with Roy, Max's relationship with Millia. (Wow she's a 60 foot tall chick with green hair that tried to kill me... OMG I MUST HAVE HER), the series of events (why did they annahilate earth?). The proof to me was when I showed my friend DYRL and he was like... huh? He then watched SDF after and was like... ahhhh I get it.

SDF-TV was just a weak drawn-out/dragged-out anime series that's really only about the story between Hikaru's and Minmay's development. Every other character in TV was pretty much dependent on what those two characters were doing and not doing. It would've fit just perfectly in just 24-26 episodes rather than 36 eps.

Yeah Max was sooooo dependant on Minmay and hikaru to get married. And Roy's and Kazikazi death all had to do with their relationship, oh and Boldolza blew up earth because he couldn't have minmay

moreover they are the MAIN CHARACTERS. This isn't War and Peace that has a cast of millions. Of course they are going to focus on them

I think nostalgia is clouding your admiration for SDF-TV and are just refusing to acknowledge that it's art and animation only made it obvious of how it's really just an average story for an anime-production.

I can't even begin to tell you what an ignorant statement that is. Compared to other series of the day, Macross blew others out of the water. Even the vaunted Gundam series had terrible animation and lulls, and it STILL is regarded as a classic. Macross attempts to inject a sense of realism (compared to Gundam which was compeletely unrealistic) was extremely well recieved, as was its somewhat gritty portrail of war. Almost all Japanese anime series today use elements of its production, hell next gundam (Zeta) pretty well copied the whole transformable robot idea. The love triange was a huge aspect of its popularity as well.

By your definition, the Seven Samurai, is really just a sub average movie because everybody have developed better filming and storytelling techniques since 1954, and have ripped off the story and made it better since then

You may not like SDF, fine thats your opinion. but disregarding the influence that it had is just willful ignorance, if you ask me.

Yeah I'd agree with you there.. Just that DYRL has..... sentimental value. Its story now doesn't speak to me like any of the other series, its animation is great, likely the second best of the series but thats it.

I'd disagree about Plus on one point. There was one character I loved, and that was guld, especially after his death (not in that way). The first time I saw him I thought he was one of the most arrogant characters, but afterwards I got a completely new appreciation of him. He was such a tragic character. I would say maybe the most deepest in all of macross. Maybe it wasn't so much character development as that you see him from a completely new light at the climax.

Thanks, I didn't mean that as a sleight against you at all ewilien. Just that most people come in and say the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Do you like Zero better than DYRL? Be honest...

I don't think its really a fair question. I watched DYRL when I was 6 years old. It shaped my imagination in ways that most people couldn't understand (well maybe some of you can ). My favorite toy was a Bandai Super Deformed Hikaru VF-1. My views are tainted in that way.

To be honest? Some aspects of M-0 that I like better, especially the realism aspect of VFs. To me now, I can understand how VFs work and how they fight compared to our modern fighters. I really couldn't do that at all before hand. As I said earlier, the helmet mounted sight they use actually is a derivative of the bleeding edge research that one of my best friend carries out. That makes it real.

As an overall movie though, I like DYRL better (not by so much though). DYRL is a bit rushed to me, and it has some problems. The TV continuity makes more sense. However, that was never my point of my first post. I don't think Macross zero a bad movie or even close to one, I can see why people think so, but that because you EXPECT it to be a certain way. That was what I was getting at, not that DYRL or M-0 was better or worse.

(sorry for editing everything, I'm just terrible at editing before I post)

good point. i can see that.

doesnt really mean that others will tho.

like i said we all have different intepretations. i have nothing against it. i just dont see the point of getting worked up over it.

oh I don't either, I've been saying the same thing for the last year and people still don't agree with me, nor would I expect people to. I just try to explain what I see from the knowledge that I have. Whether or not one agree with my view is completely up to them

Actually Alpha what I think is the question isn't the technology, but how the aliens use the technology

Look at it this way, question why advanced alien culture has to follow human norms. For example, almost all science fiction products dismiss the question of religion. They think it to be something that is of a primeval past that will be discarded in the future, and thats wrong. Actually I call it startrek syndrome, where aliens are percieved to have cultures that resemble our own. It was a standing rule in startrek by gene rodennberry to have aliens that resemble humaniods, and act like them too. So when people watch something like Macross zero, they are like, WTF?!?!? why would the protoculture, such and advanced race make floating stones? I ask you know whats so wrong with the Protoculture culture maintaning some elements of mysticism? Is is so abhorrent to think that they will retain or use symbolism in their advanced state? I think in actuality it is realistic. It might be how their culture is organized.

Yeah, I know Macross is more than just the valkyries. I like the characters in the other shows very much. Can you say you care as much about Shin as say, Hikaru?

So, the characters, music, and mech that Kawamori mentions, I'm all for that. Zero obviously goes beyond those elements, for me too far, and at the expense of good story and character development. Maybe if Zero was loonger, I'd have gotten more of that and liked it more. As it is, I think it sucks.

I also don't see how you can compare the how much you like a character from a whole TV show and compare it to one of a 2 hour movie. I think if you wanted to compare something, watch DYRL ONLY, and then compare if you like Hikaru more than Shin. Do you really think that DYRL Hikaru is more developed than M-Zero Shin, or M+ guld? Actually I think he's less developed than most of these characters.

Glad you like it though, and that it provides you hours of speculation about whether bird humans are flying fish that evolved from protoculture semen and spawned humans that disappear to the stars in barrier forcefield folds because they feel love and not Kundun anger while singing the song of life in a big floating flower

ooooooh good one, hey let me try!

Good on you for coming onto a web message board to talk about a 25 year old cartoon that features fighter planes in space that transform into robots and fight 60 foot tall aliens that get scared of their erection when they see girl sing a song.

You've really proved your point haven't you?

I wrote the same thing about 6 months ago. Nobody really cared then, and nobody really cares now.

edit... it was almost a year ago now when I first made that post. where has the time gone?

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...t=0entry71940

Zero also had more aces, fighters, mechas and mecha-battles than in Plus. And animated a whole lot better than in Plus overall.

Ummm, what???

I know there are some who did not like the Masayuki character designs in Plus, but overall, Plus has bar none, the BEST animation next to DYRL that the Macross franchise has ever seen.

The CGI in Zero was spectacular, but the hand drawn stuff I thought was lackluster, especially the drab, one-dimensional character designs.

rol!

You can put all of Plus' animations in the fighter and mecha dept and it still would not hold any candle against the animation of just episode-5 of Zero.

Since when does animation make a series great? If that's what you're going by, Macross Zero blows away SDF Macross.

I would tend to agree with this comment. The best Japanese animations in my mind are Hegensagen Vom Kosmenief and Grave of Firefiles, and neither feature groundbreaking animiation, and at some times comes off shabbily compared to contemporaries. However both use the medium in a way to express their stories. Hegensagen would not be able to be done even today as a live action piece (because it relies so heavily on the fleet action scale). Animation technique (after watching Anime for most of my life) means little to me compared to the story. Sometimes its nice to see a well done anime, but if its got a terrible storyline, I'll shut it off within minutes. Conversely, if an anime is not well rendered, but has a wicked wicked plot and the sort, then I'll watch it through.