Noyhauser

I'm curious to know more about this "holy war" that the Secretary of Defense spoke about at the end of the movie. I find it odd that such language was used by him, since most democracies don't fight religious wars (or at the very least, don't overtly claim to fight them).

Ah, mmm yeah....

I've watched it before, but I'm struck at how this really reflects so many aspects of the series. One of the key ones is the themes that the two main characters represent. On the one hand you have Kircheis and Reinhardt with their doe-eyed idealism. "we'll end this battle and this 150 year war." They truly believe in their moral superiority and what they are doing is for the greater good of humanity. On the other hand there is Yang and his almost Fatalistic realism. "Every Era there is a war." To him, there are no enlightened causes, except maybe democracy and the rule of law. The Realism/Idealism divide is a classic debate in International relations, which will become played out in the 100+ episode series.

Wait, wait, wait... let me get this straight....

You like Robotech,

You have a podcast

You don't hate Macross*

This does not compute... anybody else as confused as me?

*The Big West Version with six film/TV series.

So, we're doing this? I watched the entire thing last night and I have comments and perspectives I want the world to hear!

Couldn't resist, I watched the first 5'ish eps on youtube last night an started dl'ing the CA DVDs. Doesn't look like they're quite finished with the dvd version though it should be complete very soon.

I was surprised at how engaging I found the story. It felt epic from the start and the military tactics and political intrigue are well done.

Can't imagine the twists and turns the story will take in the next 100'ish eps but I'm excited to see more.

To your earlier point about art: I think current animes are far too focused on "eye candy" that doesn't really help tell the story... its become derivative and retrograde. Unfortunately Macross Frontier fails on this point. By comparison, LOGH to me is a perfect example of storytelling that could not be done in another medium. The art to me is pitch perfect; it helps tell the story without being completely overblown. Its it own, unique setting, and beautifully done at that.

Yes, unless there is another version that has all the episodes translated.

It doesn't look like it has the redone animation that they did later on in the series. The chinese DVDs have the newer animation, but the translations are atrocious.

I've always thought that CA had some of the best translations; they also attempt to follow traditional subtitle conventions, which most subbers generally fail at. Currently they have finished the entire series off of VHS... (actually I think I like that version better.) However they are slowly going through the DVD remastered version that was put out a few years ago.

One question. Are we going to watch it in Chronological order or the release order?

I'm planning to start watching LEGEND OF THE GALACTIC HEROES, the complete saga, one episode per day (Starting January 1st) and wanted to invite anyone to join along in the discussion and understanding of this great anime series.

All the episodes have been subtitled by Central Anime and uploaded to YouTube.

There are a total of 110 episodes in the main series, 3 OVA movies and 52 episodes in the "Gaiden" prequel/side stories.

If anyone has not watched it, it is one of the greatest series in the history of not just anime, but science fiction and drama.

To say it is EPIC is an understatement. If you have seen it, you know what I am talking about, if you haven't seen it, then you are missing out.

I will post the links up for the day's episode every day. I'd like to introduce this series to anyone who has not seen it.

Any LOGH fans out there?

You know what? I'll take you up on that offer... I've watched it before but I'd like to do it again. Personally I love the setting and how well thought out the political-military structure is on both sides.

So I assume we're going to use the Central Anime version?

Very Low. But on the slim chance it does happen. The problem is that some properties are very expensive and may not be worth bringing over (Macross7), or no one knows who holds the rights to a property (DYRL). And chances are that Hg is making some sort of money by licensing series/movies and doing very little to nothing with them. Even though their catalog is every limited

Thank you for updating my list of products I refuse to watch.

Is there any way I can listen to his podcast without adding to his numbers?

The most pathetic flame I've ever seen is in that thread by Doug Bendo:

Dude give it up..your out of your legue on this one.

If this is the main defender of Robotech, then even the rats have deserted that ship.

Anybody ever seen this film: Dark Blue World? This looks like it's actually a very good movie (Czechoslovakian?) that's pretty much flown under the radar since 2001 . This is a pretty good scene. Can't help but wonder if it's based on some pilots' recounts of actual events?

From what I've seen on youtube, the aerial sequences put Pearl Harbor to shame. But that ain't saying much--Pearl Harbor was damn near disgraceful, with its lame over-the-top unbelievable CGI, and its casual disregard for historical events and the people who lived them.

*glares disdainfully in direction of Michael Bay* You call that gung-fu? It isn't worth a sh*t! Who the hell's your teacher? I wouldn't pay 'im to wipe my arse!

ed: 0:48 - LOL! the sfx for the train AAA gun is the 9mm pistol sound from DOOM! They should have known: leave the ground work to jockeys in non-Merlin powered mounts!

I've heard of this film from my family members... apparently its pretty good. Basically the Czechoslovaks expats formed a crack flying squadron in the RAF (As did the Poles), flying in some of the most critical battles of the war. Its got a heroic bent to it. The tragedy was that they were shunned and ostracized when the communist takeover occurred in 1948. Now these men are treated like national heroes.

I think I could live with all the other small inaccuracys of the Zvezda kit, but the wrong size of the cockpit is a big turn-off for me.

However, there seems to be a nice resin kit around:

I think the Canopy problem is actually related to the nose chines... they aren't nearly as defined on the kit as the aircraft, giving it a fat appearance. The canopy is probably just a reflection of the extra space that this error creates.

Thanks guys! I'm always looking for new-toolings of sleek looking modern combat aircraft. Gotta keep that note the next time I'm at a hobby store. Do post some more pictures when you've got it finished!

I've got a Fujimi 1/72 Joint Strike Fatty Type B kinda done... I'm waiting for a UMSC F/A-18 decal set for it before I finish it up.

I've written a detailed summary at swanny's models.

Good kit, though it has some issues... most of which are really annoying but hardly showstoppers.

If its part of the flying heritage collection then its Paul Allen's gig. You'd love to see the hangar they have in Seattle David.... all the WWII are flyable and in perfect condition.

I guess I'll have to make another trek down there to see this.

Edit: Actually there has always been one other flyable FW-190; The Heritage Collection has a D9 in airworthy condition, but its never flown. Truth be told I wouldn't want to fly any german plane after 1943, given the poor quality of work that was put into them.

I believe I've built the same model, which I purchased from member on here (I also have one in the stash.) I'm not sure but I think its a copy of the old Musasiya kit, remastered by someone in Hong Kong. I've built alot of resin models, and its actually one of the easiest ones I've ever built. The parts breakdown is relatively simple: the nose, core, engine nacelles, wings, tails, exhaust, as well as the cockpit details and a few small things. Probably the only major technique you'll need to learn is resin pinning, which isn't a big deal.

Personally I think the kit is gorgeous and I'd recommend it to you. Moreover its probably one of the best resin "learner" kits I can think of.

Considering during the `80s most Soviet troops were conscripts and all US troops were volounteers I don`t find this surprising at all. The Soviets had a war to fight in Afghanistan and would have been less picky about intelligence, the US however had the luxury of peace and the ability to pick and choose their personell to a higher degree. You could also argue that freedom and capitalism moulds individuals to be more free thinking and have more initiative and free thought than a communist who is taught to be a cog in a wheel. This also may have accounted for more intelligent US troops.

You can also look at US performance in Grenada and Panama and see the level of tech and precision employed was already miles ahead of the Soviets fighting during the same era in the `Stan. It takes more intelligence and training to operate the more advanced equipment that the US had.

I mean you can see that communist tactics have never been brilliant in any conflict, peferring brute force and mass sacrafice for the greater good than well thought out tactics that save lives. You might say that individual human life is more valuable in a society like the US as well, so they fight `smarter`.

This is horribly off topic so I'll keep it shorter than normal. I'm sorry but your assertions might have some truth for low level Soviet soldiers... but your claim that the soviets could only win through "brute force and mass sacrifice" isn't supported by history. From the 1920s onward, the Soviet Union had some of the leading thinkers in the operational arts. Read about the history of V. K. Triandafillov and his colleagues, and the "deep Battle concept."While they started poorly in the Second World War, the USSR became increasingly proficient in operational and tactical operations. This is evident in some of the major Soviet offensives, like Bagration.

In the Cold War era, the quality of Soviet troops as well as their doctrine greatly increased as the country's development increased as the lessons of the Great Patriotic War were distilled. In the 1970s and 80s The Operational Maneuver group was feared by NATO, who believed that the USSR could win in Europe without resorting to Nuclear weapons. I could go on this but ask any serious military historian and they will agree that Soviet military doctrine was quite advanced for much of the 20th century.

As a final note, you really might want to rethink your examples. Afghanistan: With the exceptopn of the beginning of the invasion with the 40th army, the Soviets did not use anything close to their best troops in the conflict. Most units were either Category B or C troops, with some soviet Spetznaz and other special forces to undertake special operations. Moreover they were never really interested in hearts and minds. Grenada and Panama were relatively minor operations, and in the former's case was not a shining example of American doctrine. The Gulf War would be a better one.

While Zvezda kits are hit-and-miss, it's really more of a "is it truly new, or a modified/copied version of a previous kit". The all-new ones are pretty much universally good. And I'm pretty sure there's no other PAK-FA kit to copy from...

Was it you that really liked the 787? I'm really mulling getting one after hearing your review of it.

I heard that Hasegawa is coming out with a new 1/72 Su-33 and I wouldn't be surprised if Fujimi gets to the T-50 sooner rather than later (After offering the F-35 and the F-22).

You might not have said it explicitly... but you were certainly heading that way. The VF-171 was neither as old as you claimed, nor is it merely an upgrade of the existing version. There were some fairly significant changes between the VF-17 and VF-171, including (but not limited to) a redesigned airframe with better performance in atmospheric flight, better stealth and defensive systems, and improved ease of control. But for the having the engines downtuned, the relationship between the VF-17 and VF-171 is more like that of the F/A-18C/D Hornet and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Oh, the series does explain why the New UN Spacy forces attached to the Macross Frontier fleet aren't taking center stage... and that ain't why. Luca and Michel's dialogue in episode 4 explains that the reason the gov't keeps sending SMS to do everything is that mobilizing SMS involves a lot less red tape than mobilizing troops from the NUNS garrison to do the same job. That is why they keep giving missions to SMS. Bureaucracy, not incompetence or a lack of capability. Once the NUNS upgrades its gear for greater effectiveness against the Vajra, they prove they're just as capable as SMS (if not moreso, numerical advantage and all) at wrecking the Vajra's sh*t.

Whatever Seto, as with everything else in the world you know better about the disposition of NUNS forces, aerospace design history and even what I meant to say.

Uh... I know this is a bit of a non sequitur, but you're misrepresenting things a bit. The VF-171 isn't an upgrade version of the VF-17, it's a new aircraft developed from the VF-17. It's also not twenty years old. The Nightmare Plus's first flight was in 2046, and by all indications it didn't enter service until the 2050s. It's described as highly versatile and cost-effective, with balanced performance and outstanding maneuverability. It's hardly the discount clunker you're painting it as. It got punk'd by the Vajra because they're every bit as painfully uber as the next-gen VF-25 and VF-27, not because it was substandard.

Uh, I didn't say it was "clunker," but certainly a derivative model of an older fighter. Its kinda like the F-15 Silent Eagle. I think the series makes it clear that the colony forces are not a front line fighting force and are limited in their experience and capabilities. Anything beyond a basic level of missions is given to SMS.

Wow.

Just wow. That's a repugnant statement. Do you have IQ tests to back that statement up?

(Just so you're aware of where I'm coming from: when I read trooper, I understand "ground infantry".) I have seen (own eyes, news, the patronizing messages that AFKN broadcast to their own personnel), things that have highlighted the lack of intelligence amongst US troopers.

So, it begs the question that if those bad apples are painting the US troopers badly, couldn't the same be true of the Soviet Counterparts? And that the relative intelligence and wisdom of either side's troopers are relatively the same?

Its also factually incorrect. The Soviet Union was very good about education; it was considered one of the core rights people have. In the areas of science and maths, they were near western standards of education. Moreover literacy was at 98% and higher than in the United States, if I remember correctly. The system basically collapsed with the soviet union and education is nowhere near where it once was.

I think I get where you're going, the military industrial complex and the political machine merge into a pre-bolshevick type oligarchy?

Eh, thats a lot of jargon and terminology that doesn't all go together that well.

From what we've seen, the democratically elected leaderships aren't weak vis-a-vis their military colleagues in Macross. If anything the opposite is true... politicians play their proper role in the decision-making process. Moreover the military has not faced a major threat in several decades (like the Space War One), leading it to become excessively bureaucratized and inflexible. In reality I think they believe all they need is enough firepower to take on a Zentredi fleet... thats alll. Civilianization is a term we use for it. And if there was a "military industrial complex" you wouldn't see NUNS be equipped with 20 year old upgraded versions of the VF-17, and struggling to upgrade them

That would make sense, and the comparison to Soviet Russia being their military's general lack of quality training compared to westernized schools of war?

Are we talking about the Soviet army circa 1940 or 1980? Because by the latter date its arguable that their training had improved to the extent that they were not far off from NATO forces... probably enough to beat us.

Unlike MITHRIL, the SMS just had an air about it, that bugged me. MITHRIL was a bit too fantastic and functioned, as it seemed to me, more like a military organization, than SMS did. The "Super Sentai Syndrome" I refer to is based on how the "elite" SMS had to run out and save the day, while the regular troopers languished in incompetency. MITHRIL, was better equipped in FMP! but overall was as well trained as any professional military. SMS seemed to be somehow on that standard, while the regulars were shown as two cuts below the norm. The whole show seemed over exaggerated to me, and it was over the top to my taste, that's all I was trying to say, other than the PMC comment, But we can talk about that some other time.

I think that might be partly because this is your first entry into the 2050+ timeframe. The backstory is that UN Spacy is going through a decay in its political and military structures and is no longer the effective organization it once was. Its why they are now called the New UN Spacy. You saw it in Digital Mission VFX 2, where a corporate/criminal syndicate hijacks a macross battleship and almost brings down the government... its only a crack pilot team that actually saves the day. Political decay is alluded to in Macross Plus (both visually in the opening fight sequence and by Willard when talking about Super Nova's mission profile) as well.In Frontier, its stated that UN Spacy is a bureaucratic mess and its cheaper to get SMS to undertake a mission than the military.

If you're looking for an academic link to this, think about Mancur Olson's Rise and Decline of Nations. Consider a state that has gone to the point where the vested power groups become so powerful that they basically stifle growth and innovation... I think thats what 2060 in macross looks like.

Got the same feeling too. If one does not like M7:

- You don't know enough about the Macross series to understand that M7 is a well-implemented, if not perfect, embodiment of the Macross messages (teachings).

- You cannot accept new things.

- You are of the minority. <implication: your opinion is considered statistical outsiders - meaning you are just abnormal>

- It was a big hit in Japan. You said you don't like it? <implication: you don't have taste>

- You don't have taste. <explicitly>

Baseline: it's your own fault if you don't like M7.

Oh, one thing I don't like M7 is that it divided us. If we Macrossers had united we might have defeated the Gundams.

Feeling excluded for not liking Macross 7 is kinda laughable considering the history of this board. Basically four years ago you were personally ridiculed if you liked Macross 7 on Macrossworld. Here's a good example, and just imagine that this was the rule rather than the exception. There were people like me and keith who said, wait a second, there are some good points about it (although I'm not blind to its pretty obvious deficiencies.)

Personally, I really couldn't care less if you like it or don't. Its not for everybody. But don't expect me or others to cry that you feel "marginalized"

Who said anything about killing the JSF. I think my exact words were cost overrun and horrible procurement process. Oh yeah, and keeping F-22 production going, which was at the very least implied.

So instead of having one fighter with a bad procurement process and major cost overruns, lets have two? Yeah thats cost effective.

But it is dishonest to say that there were less competitors to the US in the 80s, Dassault, Sukhoi, Migs were just a few of the names that were around back then too. All you have to do to confirm that is look at the number of Mirages and Migs that's littered all over the planet.

I think its dishonest to completely ignore the cold war. How many developed western states bought migs back in the 1980s? I think the answer speaks for itself (Moreover nobody bought Mirages unless you're under a US arms embargo or you're france.)

The point is, no one can argue the fact that at the rate things are going, the F-35 costs won't be anywhere near as cheap as people originally thought, and that ongoing production of the F-22 make sense probably both from a reduction of per unit cost and air superiority point of view.

I won't though. Look back one page to what Nied Posted about the F-22 and avionics.

Moreover if I had a dime for every time someone complained about an new aerospace project being overbudget/delayed/disaster, I'd be rich. The F-35 is going to cost more than what was predicted; not surprising. Only one major procurement has avoided that fate: the Super Hornet. However given the massive size of the project its likely the costs will drop significantly once it exits LRIP.

Before I found this forum, I thought I was the biggest and probably only Macross fan in my country...it was great to find so many other people who were fans of Macross. But just recently, I've discovered there's a possibility that I'm not a Macross fan at all, since I don't like everything Macross.

In Richmond BC? Cmon seriously, thats were everybody goes to buys Anime stuff for the past fifteen years. You'd have to be absolutely blind not to notice there are other Macross fans.

There's a potential answer to your question of institutional memory and regenerating capability Noyhauser. I could see how that could work out for both sides if they start soon, the Aeronavale gets the UK to essentially pay for part of their deck and air crew, and FAA personnel get to retain (or rather re-acquire) CATOBAR deck handling and flying capabilities.

Interesting... This is completely blind speculation but I wonder if the Ark Royal (CVA-2) might become a jointly operated platform. Both Navies only have one carrier and aren't happy with that lack of redundancy. They may decide to share the second hull.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2010/11/04/01.xml&headline=Gates%20Briefed%20On%20JSF%20Delay&channel=defense

The latest and greatest from F-35 land...

At this rate, may be the first F-35 will enter service in 2121... at the cost of... well, I think $5 Billion each sounds reasonable.

Guys at the Pentagon shaped building, how about you just continue with F-22 production. Proven system and all that, probably lower cost, and you know what, may be modify it like they did the F-15 and make a Strike version of the Raptor. And somebody really should have fired Gates long ago, cost overruns on LCS and F-35 are just two more examples of the horrid Pentagon procurement process that he hasn't fixed.

First off, its sweetman's article (and I suspect much of the really negative press is driven directly by his reporting.) I suspect it will take another year and five billion dollars, mostly driven by problems in the STOVL and Carrier variant.

Remember this though, if the US cancels the JSF you can basically kiss its industrial base's primacy in the international fighter market goodbye. I'm not kidding either. Sure countries will buy stuff like the F/A-18E, but nobody will sign on to a major US procurement project again when they were burned in such a brutal fashion. This isn't 1980 anymore, there are many competitors to the United States in this market. Many of the programs have home field advantage... its a testament to the project that both the United Kingdom and Italy are buying both the JSF and the Eurofighter.

Its easy to throw out statements like "kill the JSF," but in reality it would do far more damage than one could imagine.