magnuskn

Well, I think this image is interesting as in that it shows ( if it is meant to be taken in context with the second movies plot ) that we are getting a really new story, instead of a rehash of the second half of the TV series.

Oh, so this logo is already known to be the bird-humans? Hm, which "faction" would that belong to?

Undoubtedly you're right. But this isn't really the thread in which to discuss it.

Since your words triggered one half page of anti- AxS fan and anti-AnimeSuki bile, I thought it necessary to comment on it.

Whatever, dude. You know my reasons.

Yeah, but I expect something better from you than labeling Sheryl X Alto fans "those people". Those a pretty laden words.

Sheryl fans are fine...I'm one myself. It's the ZOMG!ALTOxSHERIRU!ORGASMUNCONTROLLABLY!! people that I can't stand...that's just me, though.

Oh, look, prejudice.

I came to Macross and BattleTech over Robotech. For many years, Robotech was the only thing I knew about the Macross universe. For that alone, I owe a big, big debt of gratitude to Carl Macek. RIP and bon voyage, sir. May you find peace and contentment, whereever you may be now.

Work is work. My private life is my private life. Keeping one's uchi and soto separate is one of the keys to being accepted in a company. Besides which, its socially expected that you pretty much quit hobbies such as games and anime when you enter a company. So its best to keep those interests to your friends. Co-workers are for drinking and work. And occasionally some karaoke.

Here in Germany, co-workers are, well, as personal as they and you care to be, which I prefer much to keeping everybody at arms length.

Well it depends who you are showing it too and why, I suppose. The first question that comes to my mind is why on earth you feel the need to show people. I think most anime fans go through the whole 'I have to convert my friends' stage when they are in, say, junior high or so, but co-workers??

If they were anime fans to begin with, then I dont see what the problem is. Fanservice has always been a big part of anime and while it seems to be more blatant now than in the past, it was always there - the Knight Sabers in their underwear in BGC, the catgirls in Dominion Tank Police, etc.

The thing is, while I think a lot of the fanservice in Macross F is overdone, the Sherryl stuff usually isnt imo. She is supposed to be a popular pop idol and they DO tend to dress rather skimpily in music videos. I mean, compare Sherryl to, say, a Kumi Koda music video for example! Sherryl is a pretty accurate representation of what pop singers dress like, just like all the CM songs that Ranka does in the movie are pretty damn similar to what an idol singer has to do to build up a career. I think its pretty interesting that this is an angle that is portrayed in Macross F, not just the typical 1 dimensional idol singer cutout kinda character.

Then again, I wouldnt try to introduce friends to anime. They like their stuff, I like mine. And if I DID, I sure as hell wouldnt use something as niche as Macross F. Hmmm... Id probably try something like Summer Wars actually.

Why should you not try to introduce co-workers and friends to things you like? Unless they have no interest in your private life and want to be left alone, of course. But if they ask, why not?

No, its actually the 2nd thing I think about after being hapy for those two!

Indeed.

Do you know how much the light novels actually follow the series script?

In most cases it seems they follow, although they expand on some aspects and we get much more into the head of Alto. And some seriously yaoi-looking stuff between Alto and Michael. There are some new minor characters, like Colonel Aegis Focker of the 727th Independent Special Command VF-X Ravens and Lt. Gen. Kim Kabirov in command of the Earth Macross 13 fleet. Kim Kabirov if you remember is one of the original bridge operators of the SDF-1 Macross. ( Information from ReddyRedWolf from AnimeSuki ).

You can find the accumulated info on the Macross Light Novels thread on AnimeSuki.

lol, does that mean Alto is now also infected with the Vajra Space AIDS? (aka V-type infection ).

not poor Ranka... Poor ARUTO!

I'd guess condoms solved the problem.

yeah, poor Ranka

I must have missed that part where Sheryl and Alto sent her a photo of their lovemaking, let alone told her.

Poor "light novel" Ranka!

Thanks for the translation...

Let's see how they end it in the 2nd movie...

What, you read this incredibly sweet scene and the first thing you think off is "Poor Ranka!"?

Are we talking about that night in episode 22 at the Saotome residence? Or do the light novels follow a different line completely?

That selfsame night. Here's a summary by AlaAlba from AnimeSuki, who did a translation on the fly:

when it's all over, the first thing crossed Alto's mind was....

"(I'm glad it's kimono)"

Only this.

If Sheryl wore a western clothes, the problem wasn't to undress or not to undress, but furthermost, maybe I couldnt even put off a button.

The way of undressing a woman's kimono, he was taught this specifically. This young man thanks all of those things the first time.

"N... yawn...."

She's sleeping, or so Alto taught of Sheryl, the girl moves her fingers, and in the way like cats would do, brushes Alto's cheek.

"Alto... What's in your mind"

"Ah, no, erm... I a, Did I do wrong, or not...."

"Ba, baka!"

Snap, Sheryl's hand slapped Alto's cheek.

"I don't have anyone to compare to, so how should I know! Baka baka!"

"So, sorry"

"I'll punish you for that ..., you have to just like this... together with me tonight"

Not exactly "movie" news, but since there is no general thread for the Macross light novels, it seems that in novel three ( of four ) we got confirmation that, YES, Sheryl and Alto did make love. Hooray!

You're not alone!

Yeah, same here.

Which, btw., automatically disqualifies us as persons of interest for Sheryl. One mayor turn-on for her in regards to Alto was his recalcitrance to treat her as something special. Which was quite justified, as he was all by himself a mayor star already when she wasn't even widely known and he therefore would most probably be immune to being star-struck.

I wouldn't call him uniformly calm and level-headed, though he sometimes is. Other times he's obviously trying to be cool and stoic. The rest, he's uniformly and sometimes violently angry. Still, I totally agree that three of these are pretty poor fits with the general "emo" stereotype of being emotional, and depressively mopey. I think a lot of people just say "emo" because he's not a cheery guy or raging hot blooded manly man or something. Which is true, and he's not the most dynamic person, but not the same thing.

Besides the "Yaaaarrhhh!" screaming during combat, Alto calms down a lot after about episode nine, when he and Michael reconcile. Well, he gets still pissed at Brera, but who wouldn't?

Anyway, Alto is not emo at all. His complaining about his situation is kept to a bare minimum, as to establish that, yes, he has problems with his family. Any bouts of self-justification are normally triggered from outside forces ( Michael at first, then Yasaburo later on ), which simply indicates that he is not exactly comfortable leaving the tradition of being the next Ranzo behind, but determined to make his own future.

Alto: Kabuki actor.. OK, that's random, but it's fine. ... In the series, he is constantly pestered by his "brother" who claims he is acting even when he gets in the cockpit to fight. This is interesting. Unfortunately, it is never addressed again. How does Alto deal with it? Is he acting, subconsciously? No resolution.

I'll only address the series, since the movie has not been available to us non-Japan-traveling shlubs here.

First off, at the start of the series Alto clearly has problems integrating with his friends. He has been one year at least in the school with Michael and Luca, gets constantly teased by Michael and has the problem that people at the school call him "Princess", due to his hair cut and general feminine looks. It is made quite clear that he resents this questoning of his masculity.

Interestingly, he did not try to change that by cutting his hair into a more manly style, as would have been expected in such a situation, implicating that he a.) is far more secure in his masculinity than his irascible behaviour would indicate and b.) although he severed his connections to his family, he still respects tradition enough to not so drastically renounce his past as to try to purge any reminder of it.

Over the course of the series, it becomes clearer and clearer that, even while he easily gets into testy interaction with them, he is very loyal to his friends and goes to great pains to protect them as good as he can. This expands out towards him accepting the responsibility of acting for the greater good for the whole of Frontier, a place he personally hated before, due to it feeling opressive to him.

A problem many had with his character is the fact that we do not get into his head, outside of things he tells other characters. So, due to his stoic character, many missed that his character advancement was mostly done by his actions. As with the other characters in Macross Frontier, we are shown, not told. Only that Alto was not as out-going as the other characters and therefore his development was more difficult to spot.

Erm... you do realize that you're arguing against someone's opinion, right?

I'm also of the opinion that Aruto is, at best, a very weak protagonist. No amount of "fact" or countering opinion will change my opinion of "I just don't care what happens to him".

Discussion is giving foundation to our opinion with facts, so that we can be sure that we are not talking out of our behinds. So, if you don't care about facts, I don't care to argue with you.

But if Renato feels like it is worth his time to have this discussion with me, he will provide some of the reasons behind his opinion and maybe I can change his mind a bit. He can just as well change my mind somewhat, although I think the foundation of my opinion is solid.

As to the pointlessness about argueing about opinions... this is an internet messageboard, right? We are all wasting some of our free time on, on the face of it, pointless debate, which could be better spent trying to foster the next generation of Macross fans, or somesuch.

If we're talking about breaking common tropes, how about having a character that devotes himself to resolution of conflict through non-violent means? That, and the problems involved therein, are all in Macross 7.

Anyway, I would like to point out just to make my stance clear that I do not watch a lot of anime these days and the robot shows I did watch and enjoy like Macross, Votoms and Orguss did not feature teenage whiny pilots having breakdowns. I guess Evangelion started that trend with Shinji? Maybe that's why I got sick and never finished watching that show. Thus even if Alto is an important protagonist by virtue of the fact that he stands out among the crowd of modern anime robot pilots, that is not the benchmark I used to measure his value. Rather, I critiqued him as a protagonist in a narrative in general.

Having said that, I remembered that Shin Kudo might actually have been an even worse lead (even if the concept of "a boy who knows nothing but war meets a girl who knows nothing but peace" had potential). The fact that I forgot all about him says a lot, I guess.

Since you haven't yet really given a reason as to why you dislike Alto, could you do so? I got some ( hopefully ) pretty good counter-arguments ready, since I've been defending him from various people over the last months. Although Seto Kaiba already gave a good defense of him, I think I got some more arguments to make as to why he is in reality a very good protagonist.

Now that's disappointing. I was looking forward to seeing the movie with my sister fly into Nagano to visit family in January. I was hoping it'd live up to the series.

You realize that he is just making up his opinion upon the opinion of another, who differed drastically from the reviews of several other people, right?

We need people like you on the "MW watches M7 together" thread. Some are seeing the show in a new light when we actually analyze it one episode at a time. You might enjoy it (at least the discussion).

I might pass by when I find the time.

I honestly cannot remember very well, but I certainly felt Alto was the weakest lead in possibly any show I've seen. And I'm not alone: In the latest Macross Ace, Kawamori admitted that was a common complaint from the fans, and so has tried to fix that for the movie.

If the little 2-minute whiny monologue from Alto I described above was the best attempt to rectify this (because I see no other indications), then I conclude that that is just either a clear lack of effort, or just proof that the concept behind the character was lackluster to begin with.

Which is where I fundamentally disagree. I had some big discussions about this over on Animesuki, because I think Alto is a very good protagonist, compared to many other mains in mechas shows of the last years. Yeah, so he isn't flashy about his feelings, but he has some real depth. Not every protagonist needs a emotional breakdown to go ahead in their character development... Alto did it quietly and efficiently.

Who is "everyone else"? Sorry, I tried to avoid most of this thread, so I will go back and check, but so far I've only read Save's review and as with TF2:ROTF (the majority loved that film too, by the way, but I thought it was a stinking pile), I agree on most of his points.

I deleted the line "This is just my opinion.." from my original post before I submitted it, maybe I should have left it in, I just thought it was redundant.

Just to justify it, though...

I'm very much of the opinion that Macross 7 is all about the characters and their interactions, and so it was really unfortunate that the battle scenes left so much to be desired in that show.

With both Frontier TV and Movie, the situation is reversed. If you like mecha action at the expense of interesting characters/story, this is your movie. I know which I'd rather have. DYRL is still the perfect Macross movie in this respect. Sukehiro Tomita did a good job.

I'd like to also point out that I did not go in with high expectations because I thought the TV show was OK at best and was not actually going to watch this film. As of last weekend the late showings were priced at Y1200 so I thought "might as well go for it". Also, as I said, I liked the depictions of the Macross Islands and the background artwork (like the forest scenes, etc). That was worth seeing on the big screen. That was really all I wanted from this film. Thus it wasn't as if I was crushed, nor do I think I need to rave or vent about it. It's just an OK movie. It's definitely "Macross Frontier: The Movie". I'm sure those of you who enjoyed the series will enjoy the movie, so rest assured, you guys are in for a treat.

About every review of the movie I've read prior to yours has been positive ( not glowingly so, but everybody enjoyed the movie ), so yours really stood out.

I personally disagree about Frontier having less developed characters than Macross 7, but I am no big fan of M7, due to the vapidness of Mylene and arrogance of Basara. And other stuff, but let's not get into that.

As I haven't seen the Frontier movie I am not qualified to make statements about how good its character development was, but I think that two of the three mains in Frontier were were well realized. Ranka was a big mess, but I think its still debatable about how much on purpose the fail of her character arc was.

Well, that is a hell of a negative review, quite different from what everyone else was saying. I guess we'll have to see, but if I read Macross Frontier hilariously described as a "already vapid (mostly in terms of characters) TV series" from a Macross 7 fan, I know I can expect heavy bias against the movie.

Based on that, I bet the new hero in Shadow Rising will be named "Dick Butcher."

Which is the manliest name ever.

That'd have to be Dick W. Butcher for the intended audience.

Her character was retconed in her brief appearance in the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles comic, which the current creative team has made, in addition to Shadow Chronicles, official over the novels and comic books. She's now shell shocked or something because of Zor Prime's death and the chaos from the Master's Saga. There might be some bitterness with Maia too, but it's hard to make any real conclusions because it was really just a cameo for Southern Cross fans.

Oh, okay. <facepalm>

Shadow Chronicles really is from the ninth layer of hell, isn't it?

OMG, I am just on page two of the other thread and my brain already hurts because of the sheer amount of stupid of the RT people. Oh, well, at least it is entertaining seeing you guys crush Mr. Capslock into grimy paste.

Well - this whole thread is technically dedicated to that issue. Check the Hall of Super Topics - the last incarnation of this thread is there. It's like a million pages long and goes into depth about the legal issues.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...mp;#entry798933

Pete

I'll look it up, thanks!