Nied

Remember that when you destroy a ship in orbit all you do is turn it from one larg object in orbit to many small objects in orbit. It's quite clear that the Zentradi ships were in quite a high orbit (possibly geosynchronous), so it would take quite a bit of energy to force any debris to hit the ground.

As for crashed ships, those that we see seem to have made reletively soft landings (otherwise there would be huge craters surrounding them) so I doubt they kicked up much dust.

For them what is interested, the Block 60 F-16's will be getting conformal fuel tanks, developed by the Israelis.

F-16 with CFTs in Israeli livery

The Greeks are also purchasing an F-16 with an avionics box that runs along the dorsal centerline, from behind the cockpit to the vertical tail fairing.  I had the privilege of seeing one at the LMCO assembly plant in Ft. Worth.  That was a neat tour.  : )

Now, if they'd just hire me....

T

he Israelis were the first to use a dorsal spine box for the avionics. It's since been incorperated into F-16s purchased by several other countries. The Confromal Fuel Tanks were developed entirely by Lockheed Martin in the US for the Block 60 F-16 proposal for the United Arab Emirates (that's the F-16 in your picture). They've since sold some to the Hellenic Air Force as well.

But anyways, I really think the mass cloning bit needs to go into the DYRL/Macross II bin of "movie in a movie" or Alternate Universe.  It's just nonsensical and the implications are enormous. 

Hey, you got a better way to rebuild a species in a hurry?

It makes perfect sense.

Better to just say the bombardment and related casualties just wasn't that bad.  Sure the major centers could have been wiped out but not in the manner indicated...  something like how Robotech had it (perish the thought!). :cool:

And that DOES make sense? There were so many zentradi ships you couldn't see through the cloud.

I'm suprised they weren't shooting EACH OTHER while bombarding the planet. The odds of any signifigant population of humans surviving were pretty slim.

I know what the Compendium says... I don't think you're realizing how BIG the Earth actually is. The major population centers would surely be annihilated. But there's no reason for the Zentraedi to hit hardly anything in the middle of North Dakota or Siberia or North Korea, or the island of Maya, for example. Maybe the most major towns but outside of them? And sure we're talking about wiping out the majority of our population but EVERYTHING outside of the Grand Cannons? Nonsensical.

If they were trying to exterminate, then biological weapons and/or the complete eradication of the surface is necessary (top kilometer), including oceans and all the uncounted little islands out there (Maya anyone?).

But over FOUR million gigantic ships... Name four million cities, towns, villages plus collateral damage and humanity is near annihilated... The Grand Cannon did destroy a lot of them, but I doubt that it had took out more than 5% of all the nme ships.

Bingo.

They'd already SHOWN that a Zentradi fleet was capable of sterilizing a planet, reducing an Earth-type planet to something more along the lines of the moon.

Sure some stuff lived, mainly in caves and the ocean, but most of the planet was reduced to a lunar landscape.

Remember, what you see around the Grand Cannon after Hikaru rescues Misa is Middle-of-nowhere, Alaska. That used to be a nice thick blanket of snow before the attack, instead of a lunar landscape. And Alaska isn't very densely populated. It wouldn't have been a prime target(the Grand Cannon being undetected untill it fired).

You're forgetting something. We do see a real statistic on how much of the surface got destroyed on Admiral Hayase's status screen in the Grand cannon. There are large areas that were in fact spared from destruction. As you can see much of the American breadbasket was spared (very good for reconstruction), as is much of eastern South America (most likely where Quamzim's found his gunboat), Eurasia has gotten pretty pasted though parts of Spain and Italy seem to have faired well, Central Africa seems OK, and almost half of Australia survived. Now given that this shot was taken right after the intial salvo, I don't think that much more damage was done. Remember right after this shot, they fire the Grand Cannon, and right after that the Macross and Vrlitwhai begin their counter attack, so most of the bombardment ships become otherwise occupied.

I liked it. It seems to me that while they didn't answer anyone's questions, they did give us enough clues to figure it out for ourselves, that in itself is cool. Now we just need to figure it out.

One little piece of this puzzle no one else seems to have noticed: Did anyone else notice that Big Venus's head showed up before in the first season on the body of a different Mega Deaus? And in that episode Angel was yelling at Roger not to destroy the head because that's where the memories are stored?

I haven't figured out the signifigance of that but I'm sure there is one.

Nied

I think the the only visible difference between the C and B variants are the fastpacks ? The C has square nozzles. Go ahead and make the C fastpack fighter.

btw

Don't worry about the size...i think its actually better to be larger to begin with as most of us scale it down later.

The C version also has reworked Micro Missile ports. I still think I would be remiss in not including it.

No problem at all. You can just flip it on it's tail, save that version, and then edit the post and replace the image.

Well look at that you can edit attachments now! As soon as I get home I'll fix it.

Yeah sorry about that I forgott I made it so huge. I meant to say I was working on a B version of a FAST pack equiped VF-11.

This did take me a while. THis is the blank I used for the picture above. I spent about a week and a half tracing from several of the VF-11 squadron colors available on the interent. I'm working on FAST pack equiped versions (both B and C) and maybe even a top view. All are free to use it, I just ask that you give me credit for the orgininal.

Here's something I banged out today. I think we all recognize who's VF this is:

A quick thought on the Megaroad going to the center of the galaxy. I don't think that the Megaroad's destination was the center of the galaxy, rather it was just on it's way to where it was going, which was likely the other side of the galaxy.

Well both the AFOS and the Protodevelin were built by the Protoculture, it's not surprising that they'd be stylistically similar, while not necesarily being directly related.

Lemmie just clarify some assumptions I'm making before responding the question.

We are discussing ground warfare here correct?

The objective of the ground combat is to sieze, defend, or claim territory?

The majority of territories worth contesting will be semi-urbanized and populated?

Of these, ones of interest will probably have a populace of humanoid creatures whose adults are up to 2m tall?

If the answer to the above is yes than there is only one solution for ground combat:

INFANTRY

If we wish to fight wars for population centers or areas of dense terrain in a conventional manner (taking objectives by force no NBC or nanobot armies,) 10 years from now, 100 years from now, or even 1000 years from now, we will call upon the Queen of Battle, the Infantry. Soldiers on foot, be they AI, proxy alien, or powered armor mobile infantry (ref. Heinlin) are the only way to hold real estate. Artillery/Fire Support destroys enemy formations, Armor spearheads attacks, everything else is supplementary to the mission of the infantry: taking and holding ground. The Variable Fighters and destroids are some mix of the armor and artillery, and in a major population center, could do little to enforce the UN Spacy's will on the people. They would perhaps become a liability, as I'm sure man portable anti-...anti-...anti-giant-anime-robot weapons have developed in parallel to their mecha counterparts.

Macross 7 displays a canonical example of why soldiers on foot will always be neccessary for these types of situations. The Varauta were able to evade the defenses of the Macross 7 fleet and wage an effective guerilla campaign against the UN from within City 7. They couldn't be dealt with or removed by sending hordes of VF-11s into the city. Nor were the police destroids the way to fight them. Rather, these destroids supported the actions of the police security forces trying to eliminate them.

If the UN was trying to quell a rebellion (which seems to happen a lot for a nation with such Utopian origins) it couldn't do so by parking a Wing of VFs in the capital city. That'd be as effective as the United States trying to stabilize Iraq* by sending the 1st Armor Division to Bahgdad and parking an M1 at every interesection. It's intimidating, but the troops cannot remove guerilla forces or provide security to the people and would be at the mercy of man-portable anti-tank weapons, obstacles, and ambushes

The future ground wars of the UN will be fought by the combined arms team. Fleet to establish space dominance and lend fire and logistical support, VFs to establish air dominance, conduct precision attacks, or fight battles against other "armored" forces. Finally, the infantry will be there, to take objectives, provide security, kick down doors, and do the dirty grunt work to hold the ground.

*just assume for discussion sake that this is truly the military mission in Iraq so we can leave the political discussion out of the conversation. I only wanted to cite an example of how an occupation force despite a highly successful armored thrust and bombing campaign cannot hope to effect change and hold that territory without putting troops on the ground.

Too true.

My one caveat would be that the UN armed forces primary foe even after Space War One is some ten meters tall. Thus standard sized infantry might not play as big a role as it does now.

Well the traditional way of spelling it has been Millia. However even official sources translate it in different ways.

Here's how I could see a modern (say 2050 era) assault from orbit on a heavily defended planet.

Capital ships move into the area and start making forays into the orbital plane. I doubt they could get to close to the planet at first since anything from orbital defense platforms (like the ones in M+) to extremely heavy ground based installations would make that impossible. Stealth VFs (VF-17s or VF-22s) would be sent in for first strikes against high value tragets like command and controll centers, later small forces of regular VFs would be sent in along with smaller capital ships (something along the lines of a Stargazer) to punch a hole in the orbital defenses. After that larger forces could be moved in, airstrikes against the surface (or against surface targets other than the anti capital ship stuff) could begin. Only after orbital superiority is acheived could ground operations begin.

VFs would of course be deployed first, possibly while escorting transports carrying GBP armour to be attached once they hit the ground. VB-6s would come in very handy since they would allow these early landings to have some heavy fire support without first establishing a beachead. Once one is established though, larger landing ships could be moved in to discorge the heavier destorids to start the ground campaign. VFs would then move into more of a supporting role, flying CAS and escort for destroid divisions, until the planet has been pacified.

edited to correct my atrocious gramar

I don't see it. I see Guld coming through the building and Isamu drops the gun.

I think the whole point of this fight was to show that neither is better than the other. They have different styles but in the end, they're equal. Guld shoots off Isamu's FP, then Isamu does the same. Guld shoots off Isamu's headlaser and makes him drop his gun, then with his next punch Isamu break Guld's gun in two dodges his next attack then sends Guld's 21 flying with a punch.

And since this thread was originally about the planes, it could also be said that if the 21/22 was truly superior to the 19 then maybe it was Guld's lack of skill that kept him from being able to kill Isamu outright.

Guld takes Isamu's gunpod and subsequently throughout the rest of the fight he is without it (Isamu's gunpod is conspicously absent in through the rest of the scene). Guld however still had his second gunpod, head laser, arm lasers, and plenty of missiles. There is a scene with Myung between when the Ghost first attacks Guld and Isamu and when we see Isamu use his gunpod again, so it is conceivable the he was able to retreive it.

He did all that?

Wasn't he still shooting at the Ghost after the whole Guld fight?

Isamu did somehow regain his gunpod one scene later (one of the many continuity errors in episode 4). But if you watch everything before it it's quite clear Isamu lost his gunpod (you can see Guld grabn it and throw it away while they're fighting in the city, and afterwards it's gone for the rest of thier fight).

Su-27 and variants:  The first pretty Russian fighter that I can think of since WWII, with capabilities to match.

Uhh no advanced russian fighters?? The Mig 25 scared the Americans #$@# during the late 1960s...Especially when the Israelis couldn't touch a recon variant that was loaned to the syrians with their F-4s . The F-15 was given a crash building program as a result.

I didn't say advanced I said pretty. The Russians have made plenty of advanced fighters over the years. It's just they all seem to have gotten a good whacking from the ugly stick.

can someone please explain to me how to do the paintschemes?? i cant figure out how to do the layering thing! (the program i'm using is Ulead Photoimpact 8, my comp doesnt like Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop)

I've never used Photoimpact so I don't know how you'd create layers in it (or if you can). Why can't your computer use PSP or Photoshop?

Speicher's "saga" if you'll call it that is still a big thing in the aviation community. His status has been switched from KIA to MIA. Still don't know where he is. And I'm not sure if they ever had proof the F-18 remains they found in the desert was his. (I think they do). But the big debate is whether he could eject, and if he survived the ejection. Canopy/seat condition are of course the biggest clues, but the canopy wasn't where it should be, for either ejecting or not. Many believe the Iraqi's messed with the wreckage before we found it, as a lot of it simply didn't make sense.

This might be getting a little to political but I had always just assumed that his status change was just another way to try to drum up support for the war. You'd think if the Iraqis still had him we would have found him by now.

Production F-22: I don't care that it used to be Lightning II (which I liked) or Rapier (which I didn't like), this plane just screams "Bird of Prey" which makes Raptor a very fitting name for it.

Su-27 and variants: The first pretty Russian fighter that I can think of since WWII, with capabilities to match.

F-86: the classic jet from the forgotten war.

F-104 Starfighter: I loved this plane since I built a model of it when I was 7.

But you could argue that althougth both Guld and Isamu were really pissed at each other it was only Guld who was fighting to the death and tring to kill Isamu. isamu knewing the truth had no desire to kill Guld. Plus it would have been Isamu who won the fight. Guld put all his eggs into one basket so to speak and failed. If Isamu had wanted to kill him he could have blwon guld sky high ater Guld thougth he was succesful.

If Isamu were the one operating with a cool head, he would have been the one to systematically disarm Guld. But he didn't , he just fired away wildly expending his ammo, while Guld carefully removed his offensive weaponry. By the time Guld fired his missiles Isamu was defenseless, no gunpod, no lasers, no missiles. If Guld hadn't had his sudden epiphany he could have just fired off another shot and been done with it.

Why does everyone assume Isamu was the better pilot? I'm not saying I disagree with this but it is no where explixitly stated he is a better pilot than Guld? Is it just the fact that he is seen showing off at the begining of plus and he does better than the tests?

Rather than people assuming that in practice, not theory, the YF-19 everyone assumes that he is the better pilot? Anyone else have any other reasons?

If you watch the battle in episode four, it's quite clear that Guld is the better pilot. While Isamu wasted ammo and made very few shots connect, Guld bided his time forcing Isamu to expend his ammo, while carfully removing Isamu's fixed weapons (blowing off his fast packs, stealing his gunpod and even nocking his head laser off). Only after Isamu was rendered virtually defenseless did he try to deliver a killing blow with his micro missiles.

One other thought on the YF-21's wing: If we're talking about which would make a better production plane, the morphing wing is right out.

Composite materials (based upon OTM theories) which are capable of increasing or decreasing the wing cross section and area with feedback from the pilot's brainwaves. Due to the high cost and problems in the construction of the main wing's complex structure, this technology is not intended for mass production.

Something to consider about radiation. Power plants of any kind are juicy infastructure targets and would likely be at the top of any Zentradi target list. So it's quite likely that most of the worlds nuclear reactors were vaporized early on. considering the amount of radioactive material that would be atomised (most of which would go airborne) turining any nuclear reactors into the biggest "dirty bombs" in history. I'd imagine that most of the northern hemisphere would be rendered largely uninhabitable (I'd have to take a look at the jet-stream but I beilieve that Alaska would be spared).

Yes but the 19's canards are small, at high speeds, the 21's blended tail/stabilizer assembly is larger and can physically deflect more air.

Not that small! From a side view they look small but viewed head on they're quite large (take a look at the line art). And the YF-21's rudders cant deflect anything in high speed mode since they're folded against the body of the plane.

Its really difficult to explain but because the 19 in overswept relies on thrust and the "lifting body" tecnique, it would have marginal manuvering capabilities at high speed.

At high speed the 19 would have it's canards, rudders, and thrust vectoring to controll it. The YF-21 would have TVC, and to a limited extent ailerons. If anything the YF-19 should be more maneuverable.