Nied

The Cult of Lightning will not allow this thread to die!

Okay the YF-19 had overswept wings, but I'd still take the YF-21's configuration any day. Overswept means that you have NO flight control area because they are now blended into the body. you are relying on thrust alone to get the job done. Its a zero sum system with the 19, either reverse sweep and no control at all or slower with enough control. Isamu probably couldn't pull off the manuver that guld did against the high manuverability missiles because to get to the speed he needed to trick the fuses on the missiles he would not have the control to evade them (he would need to sweep the wings back). The 21 still has its rear horizontal stabilizers (I can't rememer the term they use for them, blended tail/horizontal stabilizers) , and its shockwave mission adaptive wing assembly to control flight AS well as a far superior system of thrust vectoring (three paddles directing thrust 2 dimentionally vs a one dimention horizontal/vertical system that the 19 has) .

All the of YF-19's controlls are not exclusively on the wings. In oversweep it would still have controll from it's canards, thrust vectoring and rudders. Similarly the YF-21 would lose some maneuverability in high speed configuration since it would lose the use of its rudders, and the angling of the wings would most likely kill alot of the authority of the ailerons. All of this is moot since we see both aircraft perform admirably in high speed configuration in ep 4.

The YF-19 did not have Active stealth, as the YF-21 first introduced such a system, which was later retrofitted into the 19 program. Look at the Macross compendium entry for the YF-19 and VF-19, the the YF clearly does not carry such a system as it followed a completely different design philosophy (fast and manuverable.)

Actually it does, it's in the compendium and it's mentioned explicitly in the show.

Ooooh, I like that ending....you get some closure and a sense of hope and a way to milk the movies even more for games/books/toys/tv shows et ecetra Actually I think that's the best way to take the thrid movie that won't tick off everyone. You get the hope that humanity will survive, but you also get a bit of continued pathos for humanity which seemed to be the trend of the first movie, unlike the "humans deserved it" message of 2nd Ren

I don't know if that was truely the message behind the Second Renesaince. I always thought of it as a view of that same pathos only flipped around to the macine perspective. Just take 2nd Ren for what it was presented as: a historical archive made by the machines with all the bias' and blatant propogandizing that come with it.

Nice!

I was thinking of doing the same thing, I'm just trying to find a good blank for it.

Has anyone tried that gold tint tip (that's a tounge twister) they recomended? I've always wondered how to get a good gold film on to my canopies.

i believe the F-16ATFI is actually the FSX that General Dynamics was going to make for Japan.

it would be cool to see Japan start producing their own fighter designs again.

The FSX was at one point going to have ATFI style ventral canards, but that was abandoned. It now looks like a large F-16, and is starting to come into service as the F-2.

Do those two whachamcallits (fins, winglets, or whatever) that stick down near the feet actually do anything?

Like the tail fins they're too vertical to provide much pitch controll. They are actuated (in episode 27 they tuck up against the legs as Hikaru is entering the atmosphere) but I don't see how they could do anything.

For low speed pitch controll, the VF-1 might be able to use that huge "body flap" attached to the end of the backpack. In almost every drawing and model I've seen it looks to be actuated, and it's definetly big enough to have some controll in low thrust situations. That and the feet are big enough that they might be able to deflect some airflow as well.

3. F-22's radar doesn't have totally passive missile launch mode. It MAY sometimes allow a completely passive AMRAAM launch, but don't count on it. (You need multiple F-22's sharing data for that, or a really long, multi-pass sweep on a non-manuevering target) If it makes just one active sweep, Flankers will pick it up in a second. (AMRAAM's are not the 100% totally independent missile they are made out to be, they do rely on the mother plane's radar, just to a lesser degree and for less time than the "paint till it's dead" Sparrow)

Ah but you forgett that the F-22 has an AESA radar. It could detect it's targett and move in for the kill in a low enough power mode to remain undetected and only really light up it's targett once the AMRAAM is off. Actually now that I think about it, isn't the AMRAAM data-linked during the early sages of flight so that it's recieving targett info from the launch plane, as opposed to having it's targett painted by radar? If so a Raptor could remain in LPI mode after popping off and not have to paint the targett till the AMRAAM is halfway there.

And the CF version:

For comparison purposes here's the original:

Yay I finnally got my copy of photoshop back! And to inaugurate this splendid occasion I went back and re-did one of my old paintjobs from scratch. I was never very happy with my original Sundowners scheme (it was the first thing i had ever done in photoshop), and the cannon fodder Sundowner I did turned out so well I decided to go back and re-do the orginal from scratch. Lemmee see if I can dig up the old profile I wrote for it.

SVF-111 was one of the first squadrons to convert to the VF-4 (after SVF-1 "Skull", and SVF-184 "Iron Chiefs"). As such it was one of the few VF-4 squadrons to operate off of the ARMD series carriers before they were decommisioned (in this case ARMD-05 Akagi). Represented is the squadron leader's aircraft, which received a unique "navy style" scheme of overall gloss gull gray (FS16440) over white, other fighters in the squadron received a more traditional scheme. Most lettering is in red with the exception of the Akagi designation on the tail, which is in white, and the UN Spacy markings, which are in the traditional black. Of special note is the repeating of the sun pattern on the ventral fins, a unique feature made possible by the large ventral fins on the VF-4.

Frankly I don't see UCAVs ever actually replacing maned fighters. I think that instead they'll end up suplementing them, say one or two manned fighters leading a squadron of UCAVs. I just don't see AI being able to replicate human judgement any time soon.

A few thoughts. SW-AG armour would explain why Misa ordered Hikaru to change to batroid mode in the first episode. I'm not sure how it got in every-ones heads that the VF-0 has a virtualy reality cockpit. The only shot that suggests that is from when Roy first converts to Batroid, and that whole sequence is rather stylized anyway, every other shot shows standard flat panel monitors.

The VT-1 Super Ostrich is a FAST pack equiped trainer, which like all Valkyrie variants equiped with FAST packs is confined to space.

The VT-1 Ostirch on the other hand is the exact same Variable trainer without the FAST packs, half the time we see the Super O in DYRL it's just an O without the super (Hikaru very smartly ejects his FAST packs as soon as he and Misa are folded into the atmosphere).

The Variable vehicle in that shot apears to be a single seat fighter in training markings (some training squadrons have fully functioning fighters in their ranks for advanced training). The airbrake is a dead givaway, the two seaters don't have them.

I said it makes more sense to remove a VF-1D's nose section, paint it, and slide it on Max's VF-1J than to paint a entire Valkyrie, then repaint it again. Yes, that's what I said I felt they should have done.

But a VF-1D is more than a -1J with a different nose. The fuselage is completely different and thus it would be incapable of mounting to Max's -1J. It wouldn't even work as a non-transformable fighter since the fairing into the rest of the body is defferent.

Why? Because Roy removed a VF-1D's nose section in mere minutes. It was also completely compatible with a gunpods mount suggesting serious compatability between Valkyries.

How? It shows a serious ability to hang a nose under another fighter. Roy couldn't have swapped noses on his fighter since his fuselage was completely different than Hikaru's.

Painting a Valkyrie wouldn't be simple. First you'd need to paint a base color for the fighter. Let it dry. Tranform it to the Gerwalk. Finish the base color spots that got missed. Transform it to Battroid and finish the rest of the missed base color. Let it dry. Add the custom color. Let it dry. Transform it. to the Gerwalk. Paint the custom color. let it dry. Finally transform it back to fighter and finish the custom color. Let it dry.

Why does it need to dry for the transformation? Indeed why transform it at all? One could simply half transform it into some kind of exploded version and set the robot spray arms on it.

Let it dry. Then you'd need to stencil all the markings and warnings back on. So strictly for a paint dry time we're at a extremely conservative 21 hours at 3 hours drying time. None of that time includes masking, primer, or actual painting. Realistically the prep time is always longer than the paint time. Say 12 hours prep time, about 2 hours to mask between each variation. 33 hours, and that's being very conservitive with a crew around the clock on the project during combat. Four plus shifts.

Paint doesn't require a crew to make it dry. Put it into an oven and it pretty much handles itself. Robotic spray booths don't require man hours or shifts (they're full of robots). Sparying on stencils and warnings take no time at all (they are applied and re-aplied all the time in the field).

Let's just say I was right. Say 5 minutes to remove a VF-1D's nose. Say 2 hours to re-install given the extremely compatibility and a hour of flight check. The nose would need 3 hours for the base, 3 for the custom and 3 for stencils. The prep work would be much less cause the scheme there is easy. So say 2 hours for prep. 14 hours 5 min. less than Two shifts during combat.

But you're not right, the fuselages on the two variants are completely different. If there was all this "extreme compatability" you talk about (is that on ESPN2?) they'd all have the same fuselage. Even if all the connectors are the same they still couldn't mate since the two different fighters are physically different.

The show implies that the wending happened very fast. The cermony, would be a bit difficult to plan. The cake would be really tough. The military honor gaurd a cinch. The laser show easy. But the paint would need a lot of prep time and time to dry.

I never said retrofitting anything, just sliding a VF-1Ds nose on Max's plane makes more sense than repainting an entire Valkyrie.

Most modern paints dry in 12 hours. One would think that with overtech they could cut that time in half. I find it hard to beileive that a service crew couldn't find half a day to prep and repaint a Valkyrie, but that they could find the time to replace the fuselage of one. One is very simple and requires very few man hours (remember drying paint doesn't need anyone to do anything) while the other is rebuilding an already complex peice of machinery.

I think one of the things that's plauging the Trek franchise is that "continuity fatigue" is setting in. The same thing happened to UC Gundam and I think that maybe something similar to what they did for the Gundam franchise might be in order for Trek. I'm not saying we need Star Trek Wing here, but something along the same lines. Boil the franchise down to it's basic componenets and start over from scratch (I think this includes getting a new creative team). After a few false starts it worked for Gundam, I don't see why it couldn't work for Trek too.

Every model and line art of the VF prior to Hasagawa is totally interchangeable. Like I stated earlier they'd have to be to stay flying and fighting as easily as possible. Ease would be intergchangeabl parts and technology.

Actually no. Phyrox's visual is pre Hasegawa line art and it clearly shows that the 1D's nose sits much further back than the single seat models.

Not one aircraft that gets a total repaint is done quickly in reality. They all take a fair amount of time. It would be far more believable from a merely paint job POV in the series, that they painted a 1D nose sections latter half blue and the nose cone white, than they painted the entire Valyrie, customized it and stenciled the warnings back. And that's assuming the paint they use dries quickly. Max's scheme is pretty complex, a couple of days tops for a nose or well over a week for a entire Valkyrie?

Hardly aircraft get ad-hoc paintjobs in the field all the time, especially in the Navy. And that's on a cramped carrier with very little room to work. It's not hard to imagine that given the larger amount of space on the Macross, and maybe a good robotic spray booth, they could have a Valk re-painted in a matter of hours.

It also always irked me too that everybody considers the VF-1D a trainer only. That's kinda part of my arguement.All VFs would be interchangeable with crew and parts in order to realistically keep up with deaths, damage, and maintanence. We were only told the story of 5 pilots, Max, Millia, Roy, Hikaru, and Kakizaki. Who got Max's 1A, who got Hikaru's 1J etc. That stuff never got mentioned but it's a fair assumption to say other pilots took them, or they got recycled to other operatianal VFs as parts. Supplies on the SDF were always at a premium.

THe VF-1D isn't a trainer, but it's also not a VF-1J with a different nose and head. It has a completely different forward fuselage as well. To convert a 1J into a 1D you'd have to replace everything forward of the wings to make it compatible. When you consider that all that would be left of Max's orginial Valk would be the wings, backpack, legs, and arms a complete repaint of a VF-1D doesn't sound so unreasonable.

We kinda had this discussion not to long ago this is ruffly what we came up with plus/minus an exit turbine. (Sorry for any typo’s in the PDF)

A couple of things regarding this. First the chest "intakes" are actually used for aerodynamic control (the compedium lists them as being used in lieu of glvoe vanes) so the couldn't be collecting water vapor. Secondly I don't see how collecting water vapor could work, under the best conditions there's hardly enough in the atmosphere to create a sustainable fusion reaction, and under the worst conditions (such as in desert climes) there's none at all. Finnally I don't think the space explanation is workable either. Simply squirting reactor plasma out the back wouldn't provide enough thrust, you'd need a reaction mass to really be effective (which again is why I like MAT's solution of kerosene it gives you reactor fuel and reaction mass all in one easily storeable liquid).

The VF-1S has uprated engines so it would follow that it would have somewhat better acceleration, though it's probably not much faster flat out. Most aircraft are limited more by their drag coeficient than their engine thrust. The 1S is also supposed to have vastly superior avionics. I'm not sure if the 1J has any advantage other than another head laser (though I always thought that point on it's chin was some kind of powerfull IFF antenea).

Well the arm units are completely redesinged, they only retain thier basic shape in DYRL. THe leg packs in the TV series had two verticaly oriented thruster bells and one long horizontally oriented slot, the DYRL version has slightly larger thruster bells and has replaced the slot nozel with three engine bells. The backpack units are almost identical except for some minor panel variations, and larger thruster bells like the leg units (the main engine bells apear the same though).

+ isn't an option, for any aircraft of any era in any service.

Except for the AV-8B!

I wished the animators had taken the time to redo the cockpit scene rather than come up with a ridiculuos explanation like F-14A+ Kai crap. 

Anyway how does soft overtechnology  actually improve an existing design ?I don't any improvements besides the use of more advanced flightsuits ....perhaps it allows for structural upgrades, lighter materials, better targeting computer.etc

It may be that they used overtechnology in the manufacturing process to make it much faster and cheaper. The actualy plane may have had very little overtechnology put into it. Though I could see them putting in a new hypercarbon wing box to replace the titanium one. Bring the flight hours up.

So, maybe Kawamorii calling it the F-14A Kai is his way of simplifying it... chances are that the "kai" variant simply implies that is uses overtechnology.

So I have to wonder then, exactly what changes are made in the kai variant? Surely engines get upgraded, but what else I wonder....

Well as David pointed out it gets many of the external upgrades of the D (most notebly the dual TCS IRST chin pod) but retains the original A cockpit. My theory is that the animators screwed up, they wanted Shin's mount to be an F-14D, but they got bad references and put in a perfect A cockpit. Then after realizing their mistake called it an A+ Kai and were done with it.

If you want an in story explanation, you can say that the UN Spacy used overtechnology to very cheaply upgrade the US Navy's quite large F-14A Fleet to a modified B standard (hence the new chin pod) to bulk up it's air arm while wating for all these new designs to come out.