Sundown

And what makes you so sure we are at the end of teh VF-1 line eh?

MUAHA! YES!

And I still don't understand why the VF-1's and new Valks are somehow mutually exclusive in some peoples' minds.

-Al

I still don't think having rounded scissors will help cut round logos

Let us know how it works.

It actually does help quite a bit. For some reason, it's a lot easier to control the curve with a blade that's curved already. I'd used a curved pair of scissors for my 1/60 decals and they worked nicely, especially for the round ones. Although those were supposedly nail scissors. But they looked pretty much the same. I thought I was daffy for using them.

-Al

oh yeah, heres the lucky lady

Anyone else think she looks a tad like Helen Hunt?

-Al

No way man... Lancer's songs in RT were awesome!

Ironic how the best RT songs were sung by a "girly-man".

Anyway, I did and still do love the RT BGM... prefer it to the Macross actually, as sacriledgious as that is. My favorite has to be the "Zentradi" theme... it's got an appropriately ominous mood that just works for me, especially when you see all the green pickle ships slowly fold out from hyperspace. Most of the other background music is pretty decent, as well. There are quite a few that I've liked for a long while.

The original Macross SDF BGM just doesn't work for me in the same way. Maybe it's because I'm not used to the 80's style Japanese-trying-to-be-modern-western orchestral sorta music that's used in the series, and the intro theme took a *long* time to get used to. It's pretty corny, really. But eventually, by the end of the series, a few themes grew on you. The WA WA WA! WA WA WA! Zentradi attack theme still makes me shiver occasionally (not for the right reasons), but at least for me, SDF Macross music took awhile to adapt to. I'm stilly not crazy about it.

Now the vocals... Reba West. Ugh. Enough said. Ijima's work for SDF is in a totally separate league, whether you actually like the songs or not (I do). But that's hardly news.

-Al

5) H&K MK.23. That gun is a joke. Designed by committee, so oversize. Never gets used by all accounts.

For what it's worth... despite the ongoing myth, the MK23 *is* actually used currently by US Navy Specwar. Many in the teams find it a good weapon, if a bit large. It's also taken instead of the P226 in wet environments (where the P226 is known for corrosion problems). It's not quite as unused is it's commonly thought to be, despite initial reservations... and SEALs seem to be endearing themselves to it again.

-Al

people need to forget about the damn scales , just think about the sizes of the toys.

If 1/60 M+ are gonna be as big as current 1/48 toys then why wouldn´t they have the same level of detail ? but no , it has to be 1/48 because that´s the new trend nowadays.

I think you also don't realize that people actually may want a 15" valkyrie. And don't get me wrong, I know how big 15 inches is. For some odd reason I have a 15" ruler sitting in front of me and it doesn't seem that large at all. My keyboard is longer than that...

Exactly. The folks who want the 1/48 M+ toys are some of the same who want the rather huge 1/60 Monster and somewhat huge 1/60 Q-Rau. Why not rail on these two products? Why reserve all your annoyance for the 1/48 line? The Monster coffee table is as silly and expensive a toy as anything.

Those of us who want a 1/48 YF-21 know how freaking huge it is. And we're willing to pay a premium for such a large item, especially one in scale with the VF-1 to be able to show them off together in a diorama type display. Aegis, you're obviously not one of these people. So before you go on accusing folks who want the 1/48 of being ignorant, not thinking through things, or what not... let me say it again. It is *not* for *you*.

They've already made small scale M+ Valks. They'll likely make a 1/60 line as well. They'll *most* definitely make either a 1/72 or 1/60 line for the M0 Valks (they'd be stupid not to). You have plenty to choose from, both now, and available soon. I'd be glad if Yamato makes any of the above for your sake, and they will if rumors are true-- even if I don't pick any up myself. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET WHAT YOU WANT. So leave the 1/48's be.

We don't piss on your parade, so stop pissing on ours.

-Al

EDIT: grammar and punctuation.

Besides, most rational fans don't dispute that B+B did great things for TNG. Most people are just saying that they need to give it up and move on...........after all Roddenberry had to do the same, why doesn't that apply to these two?

Err.. Roddenberry "gave up" Star Trek due to unavoidable circumstances (ie, passing away). Unless of course you're suggesting the same fate for B&B.

-Al

And besides... at least my 1/60 1S doesn't have an ugly seam line running down its head... like a certain other toy.

Yeah. It just has an ugly head.

-Al

The main reason I don´t buy 1/48s is because there isn´t any real variety (unless you consider different colours and heads to be variety ) not because I can´t afford one (I have the economical resources to buy a 1/48 but not a reason to justify such a big purchase for a toy ), that and because I already have a VF-1 toy. I feel tempted to buy a Low-vis now and then but I can´t find any logical reason to spend $100+ in a toy, so I think I´ll wait until the prices go down to $90 or something.

The idea of a 1/48 YF-19 toy is horrendous , not only would it be unnecessarily expensive but it would be unpractical , with almost zero playability (too big to transform by oneself) , too big for display purposes and too heavy (even if it was made entirely out of ABS) for ointernational shipping.

Then it still stands that the 1/48 is too expensive for your tastes. Let it be then. I don't see the need for railing against the line. Plenty of us do and can justify the price for the toy... and for paying more than that for even larger toys. It's clear you don't. Let it be.

Leave the unpractical and unnecessarily expensive items for the unpractical people with unnecessarily expensive tastes. You're obviously not one of them. Leave the engineering to Yamato. If it can't be done, it won't be done. Be happy with your 1/72's or 1/60's that are already planned in the new "action scale" line.

If you want to complain and rail against something being too big and expensive, complain about the 1/60 Monster and 1/60 Q-Rau. Both are bigger and likely more expensive than any of the possible 1/48's mentioned here. And both already planned by Yamato. I don't see why there needs to be any sort of sustained campaign against something you're not gonna buy, especially when other options will likely be made available to you.

And I don't see how you're losing out... unless having overly expensive products out there that *you* won't buy bugs you some how.

-Al

MW should have an official pinned boob thread.

I thought that was what the entire Fan Works section was for.

Is THAT how I come off!?

I like a ton of people around here... Especially myself (I ME!). Though there are a few around here that should be put to sleep.

Well,

I ... BOOBs.

Sorry. Had to. Couldn't find the heart icon earlier.

-Al

I'd vote for that... but only if it had Total Recall... recall... a-ha! a-ha ha! ha... ugh...

I'm just happy he's the Running Man for the Republican Party.

He's the Commando for the people... to liberate us from the Raw Deal we got with Davis.

Ehehe... heh.

*hangs head down in shame*

-Al

I don't think the Aliens and Predators are going to be fighting in the snow, if anything they'll probably be on an underground bunker or something.

Maybe the reason the Predator is down there, is because his ship crashlanded with some alien eggs and the human colony down there goes to retrieve it, take them (Aliens & predator) back to base and all hell breaks lose.

It's a possibility. 

Actually... it could make a whole lot of sense. A Predator ship crash landed on antartica base. Poor human fool went to investigate the crash, probably found a sort of escape pod. Guess what was inside? Yep... a mind condition Alien Queen ready to spawn thousands of eggs on an unsuspecting human base.

After many attempts to contact the base, and after many rescue teams that never reported back, we have this bunch of pathetic little human CFs that are for one reason or another sent there to investigate. And guess who decides to join the party? A group (or maybe 1) predator who decides it would be a good idea to find out what happened to its mates. Thats when everything goes to heck.

Obviously they hired the wrong person. Now if you'll simply write a Resident Evil movie, we can off Paul Anderson and no one would actually notice. Well, they would, only because Resident Evil would somehow be watchable.

Seriously, that synopsis actually sounds good:

Got suspense and build up. Forboding mysterious alien ship discovery. Curious silly humans bringing it into their complex. Same silly humans try to do research while cut off from any support. Bad things ensue:

What happens next? Hrm...

Queen breaks out, kills a researcher, and starts building a nest in the warmth of the station. Researchers can't find queen. Facehuggers attack from random vents. Lots of researchers die. Yay chestbursters. Stars of movie hold out while trying to get backup, having no idea what they're dealing with. 2nd Predator comes to investigate. Hapless researchers watch Predator and aliens fight it out, trying not to get themselves killed. More researchers die. Attempt at contact succeeds. In come the marines. A few marines get their asses handed to them by both predator and aliens. Predator is happy for more viable game. Lots of shooting, killing. Stars help marines. More stars die. Main character realises they weren't fired upon by the predator until they themselves became armed.

Predator gets overwhelmed by aliens and marines. Calls for backup. Hilarity ensues. Total carnage. Main character gets bold and approaches predator unarmed. Communicates need to ban together against the bugs. Marines and predator kick bug butt. Lots more die.

Lone researcher, one wounded marine, and predator are left. Marine proposes desparate plan to load high explosives brought with them onto an ATV vehicle, and drive it through to to the queen's chamber. Fast paced scene with heroes shooting lots of aliens off the transport.

Egg chamber... Queen isn't there. Bomb is set. Heroes drive back out of the halls of the complex. Ambushed by queen. ATV wrecked. Predator holds off queen while heroes scamper for cover. Predator gets his butt kicked, but sets off his mini nuke before croaking. Queen chases heroes through halls... to a remote vault. Heroes seal themselves in the vault, shutting out the Queen. Queen bangs against door. Predator nuke goes off... bye bye Queen. Lights go out. Darkness.

Heroes wait for days for rescue. Corporation "sanitation" crew come. Find Heroes huddled in the darkened vault. Rescue heroes. Rest of base totally annihlated, a crater in the snow. No proof or evidence of bugs or predators. Heroes checked into mental ward and interrogated. No one believes them. Happy ending.

EDIT: Actually, having all the researchers croak from the begining, without showing it... would be nice. Just focus on the Marines, figuring things out in a darkened complex, finding for themselves both the predator and bugs... and maybe finding a lone survivor (patterned after Ripley, of course).

-Al

A few Aliens? You mean 1 at close quarters that almost took out Vasquez?

What are the chances of a research facility having a few desert eagles laying around? Worst.... what are the chances that those CFs can do anything with them other then shoot themselves on the foot?

That's why this whole research facility with no weapons deal is a bad idea. No room for neato guns. I meant neato guns like the M41A and the smartgun. Not all that shiny junk from Resurrection.

The "we're trapped and need to just sit around and hold out" thing only works with good writing, and good dialogue. I'm not expecting either. It's gonna be Alien 3 + predator on ice. Except with no bald Ripleys.

"I'll take Anal Bum Cover for 800, Alex"

"That's 'An Album Cover, and you, are an idiot"

"I've been working on developing an Anal Bum Cover for years."

"I've got to ask you about the Penis Mightier."

"What? No. No, no, that is The Pen is Mightier."

Nick Cage: "Wait, wait, wait...are you selling Penis Mightiers?"

"NO! No, I'm not!"

"Well, you're sitting on a goldmine, Trebek!"

Sigh...

I <3 BOOBS

-Al

The more and more I see pics and videos of this game...and picturing playing this game with authentic sounds, and Dogfighter playing the background...can't help but jizz all over the place

Remind me to bring my own controllers if you ever invite me over to play.

I was thinking about it.... maybe its a versus mode? Perhaps the versus mode in this game you get to chose the arena and the colors for your mecha.

That would be cool enough. Sigh. If only. Heheh.

-Al

*In Scottish accent*

Custom Titties, please Alex!

Ooh, Titles! Not a fan of the ladies, are we?

-Al

"Fox and Sigourney Weaver have contacted me, they want to conclude this series with the one who has begun it. [...] But there are not even serious talks. I don't really know what I could do…unless I go back to the questions stated in the first episode. Where does the crashed ship on the planet with this mysterious extra-terrestrial come from ? We could wonder wether massive destruction weapons (which could threaten the Earth) had been used or not. I could be inspired by THE WAR OF THE WORLDS…"

Sounds like he has been reading too many Alien comics... and thats not a bad thing.

Perhaps this way we could bump Alien 3 and Resurection out of the continuity.

Why does this actually sound... like a good Alien movie? For once? How the hell do these other directors/writers get jobs? They just end up pissing on great franchises, showing no respect for the previous works... all while pushing their (rather lame) "artistic" visions.

Is it so hard to understand that we don't want to see good characters killed off for no reason...

That we don't want to watch a bald Weaver for 2 hours...

That we don't want to see a nasty, gooey man/ape/alien hybrid and some dumb mother complex it has with Ripley...

That we want to see a decent movie worthy of the name?

-Al

DYRL *has* been called something else other than a movie prior to 1994, by Kawamori himself. It's been called something "just as real as SDF, the story in movie length form", without reference to it being a fictitious movie within the canon itself.

Do you know the date of this quote? I agree that it weighs strongly against the idea that Kawamori was thinking of the MWAM idea at the time.

By the way, the quote in which Kawamori said "the real Macross is out there, somewhere", is from Animerica, in an interview. Find it here. The full exchange is:

It seems many American fans tend to thing of the Macross movie as the "official" Macross continuity. What's your opinion?

Consider real histroy. Many different stories have been created based on the same historical facts, haven't they? For example, there are many stories about World War II. It's the same thing with Macross. The real Macross is out there, somewhere. If I tell the story in the length of a TV series, it looks one way, and if I tell it as a movie-length story, it's organized another way.

You know what... my quote is actually a badly misphrased version of your actual quote. I must have remembered it wrong, but the idea is the same. In your quote, Kawamori seems to talk of DYRL and SDF as being retellings of the same story... with a (fictitious) "real" continuity out there somewhere. That puts DYRL and SDF on the same level, as opposed to "one retelling of the story within another retelling of the story" that it really is now. This kind of goes against the MWAM idea from the get go.

-Al

The structure of DYRL is so that all events prior the first scene, and after the last scene, require foreknowledge of the series events to fully understand. In that, it is intentionally designed as a re-dramatization, just as any other big budget historical docu-drama.

Agreed.

My long since burried point in bringing up Flash Back 2012 was to prove that despite the flasher version of events in DYRL, by 1987 Studio Nue clearly decided that the TV series version of events was the dominant version of events, though they weren't abandoning DYRL either. This in itself is evidence to provide support for the later claim that they decided DYRL is a movie within the series. And again, is it required for them to write it on a box inorder for it be so? No. Just as it's not necessary for them to assume we all realize major animation mistakes, such as the nose lasers, are just that, animnation mistakes. And yes, the official DYRL of the Macross continuity does have additional scenes, but at the same time, it is the same movie.

Agreed.

But 2012 does not clearly indicate that DYRL *is* a movie within the fiction in '84... even in hindsight. It only points to the fact that Studio Nue didn't want to abandon both. And it actually appears more as if they were simply undecided/or didn't care that much about how DYRL would fit exactly into the SDF continuity or how the inconsistencies between the two would be resolved. It just didn't matter that much at the time.

You can accuse me of lack of facts all you like, but that doesn't change that DYRL "is" a movie within the continuity, is structured in a way that it easily fits this description, has never been called anything "but" a movie within the continuty, irregardless of being labelless for 10 years.  No facts have been supplied which identify it as anything else, the creative scre behind it support their stance. You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't change what it is.

NO ONE has argued that DYRL isn't now a movie within the continuity. That's a straw man argument. The real argument has been "What exactly was DYRL from 1984 to 1993 in the creators' eyes? Harping on what the creators have said in 94 does not strengthen your original claim of what you believe it to be in 84.

DYRL *has* been called something else other than a movie prior to 1994, by Kawamori himself. It's been called something "just as real as SDF, the story in movie length form", without reference to it being a fictitious movie within the canon itself.

No one is debating what DYRL is now. No one is debating whether or not all the existing footage can be retconned or interpreted to fit with the movie within the continuity explaination.

The debate is what was DYRL's original intent from 1984 to 1994. The facts do not support conclusively that it was originally intended to be a movie within the SDF timeline.

The evidence simply does not adequately support the boldness of the claims. They do allow for a remote possibility of such a claim being true, and they do allow for fan/creator reinterpretation and retcon. But they are by no means, conclusive support that such has always been the creator's explicit vision.

In fact, in regards to DYRL, the circumstantial evidence would tend to weigh against your claim. Because you have still yet to address why Kawamori did not make his supposed intent clear when he could have, even when given the opportunity many times... instead choosing to send fans into confusion for some 10 years. If he had known what DYRL really was, he was sure actively avoidant about sharing it with its viewers. Why?

The argument that DYRL was always intended as a movie in the timeline has very little support, until this question is addressed adequately. Saying that he didn't have to clarify simply avoids the question, which still lingers and continues to cast legitimate doubt on your stance. Without providing convincing counter arguments, one only makes vague excuses.

Excuses don't form the basis of a coherent defense, especially not of something that should be so plain to anyone who's seen the works in question. And excuses don't form the backbone of a defense for stunningly bold claims.

-Al

I'll say it again, they made the DYRL? movie simply because they thought it would make money, and for no other reason. There is no great scheme behind it.

Thank you for saying that. Some people around here never see the capitalism in things the way I and Agent do.

You mean the same folk who eat up the most capitalistically pandering installment of Macross?

-Al

If that were true, we'd still be having to deal with Macross II, as well as the many inbetween 87-94 period PC Engine & assorted games. Kawamori has stuck pretty tightly with continuity, and unlike Lucas, has made succeful efforts to flesh it out greatly.

Not exactly. Lucas has stated only the films are canon, and supersede any EU or extraneous material. The films, by themselves, don't lack that much continuity. They're certainly a lot less confusing continuity wise than the DYRL/SDF/Mac 0 oddness we have now. The extra Star Wars material in the form of games and books are just as semi-canon as the extra Macross stuff. And the films themselves are mostly (but not anally) internally consistent. The Force being explained as "midiclorians" is almost the exact same sort of thing Mac 7 did with Spiritia. This has no bearing on the comparative quality of either series, of course.

Kawamori himself has said that he's not that concerned with strict continuity. That says more than anything. It's been the way he always has been. He retcons when he needs to. But he doesn't go out of his way to establish bulletproof continuity, instead concentrating on his vision for the particular project at hand.

As for the other issues addressed, it still boils down to the fact that it's not necessary for there to have been anything "spelled out" to anyone pre-94.

It's not necessary for anything to have been spelled out, for DYRL to have been intended as a fiction within the continutiy from the get go. True.

But it is necessary for things to be spelled out to claim undeniably that it was. Such evidence is absolutely necessary in order to make such bold and unqualified statements as fact.

Until then, it's merely "opinion", based on pre-existing bias. One that's not really all that convincing. The biggest questions still remain:

1. Why did Kawamori wait 10 years after DYRL to explain that DYRL was fiction within the continuity?

2. Why did he leave so much apparent confusion unaddressed for so long?

3. Why did he say "DYRL is just as 'real' as SDF" when he had the opportunity to clear things up? Why didn't he just explain that DYRL was fiction with fiction, instead of further confusing the fans, and avoiding the question altogether like he did?

This is why there is so much doubt over why DYRL was intended to be a fiction within a fiction. Much evidence suggests that Kawamori and Studio Nue didn't have a definitive place for DYRL in terms of SDF. It was just another, more flashy, retelling of the story.

The evidence can be interpreted your way... but it is just another interpretation... one that doesn't have much strength to those who aren't inclined to believe you in the first place, based on their own observations and inclinations.

You're right. There doesn't need to be any proof for what you say to be true. But without proof, your hypothesis and theory isn't particularly convincing, in light of the circumstances and in light of the actual facts that suggest-- for many-- otherwise. You can't say "deal with it" and "there's no real proof, and I don't need any" in the same breath. Not if you want to debate with intellectual integrity, anyway.

In the end, Nue states it's a movie within the continuity, has never stated anything otherwise, and affirms that stance to this day. And given that they do so, there's no reason for anyone to believe otherwise. The fact that FB 2012 only stands to support their placement of DYRL within the continuity as a movie just makes it all the better.

Their statement is only good from 94 on. Their statement does not lend credibility to claims that DYRL was intended to be a movie in the continuity in 84.

Your claims far outreach the weight and strength of the evidence you provide. In fact, Studio Nue's tardy clarification, arriving some ten years after DYRL was released, when this stance would have cleared up a lot of things sooner, actually lends more weight to the stance that they never had a place for DYRL in SDF in the first place. It simply wasn't an issue to them at the time.

Furthermore, your claims outweigh what Kawamori and Studio Nue claim themselves. They never even state that "DYRL was always a movie within a movie, even in 1984... you silly attention-deficit fans".

The only reason anyone needs to question DYRL's original nature is curiousity, intellectual integrity, and interest in the truth. Anyone who asks the question "Do these claims about DYRL ring true to me regardless of what I want to be true of it?" will likely wonder why the movie within a movie explaination had to wait 10 years. They'll also wonder why Kawamori didn't make things clear when he had many chances to.

But I can think of many reasons for someone to refuse to look in that direction and to refuse to question whether Kawamori really had a (convoluted and confusing) "master plan":

1. To be able to make grand claims about Kawamori's genius and flawless foresight.

2. To lend credibility the theory that Macross 7 in its current state is what Kawamori envisioned even in 1982, and that this is somehow the "true" Macross. Thus, DYRL was somehow Macross 7 coming into fruition even in '84... because he intended even then, for the fiction within a fiction explaination to be revealed in this yet to be created series.

3. A need to believe that every part of animated Macross fits with every other part, seamlessly and without continuity problems. Resolving the confusion with DYRL... by saying there wasn't ever any in the first place... maintains the belief and illlusion that no continuity breaks ever existed in Macross, at any period in the lifetime of the franchise. DYRL remains the most problematic installment in terms of continuity. Tackling that head on, taking what Kawamori said about it-- in 94-- then giving him credit for it in 84, resolves the most significant problem, and allows one to believe what he wants to regarding points 1. and 2.

Frankly, I could personally care less if DYRL was originally meant to fit within the SDF continuity. In fact, I like the idea of DYRL as movie over it being some definitive or alternate telling of Space War I. Yet I still have a hard time believing DYRL was supposed to be a movie within the SDF timeline even in its inception. I don't have any hidden motivations for doubting your claims (claims Kawamori doesn't even make himself).

So either:

1. I'm a dunce for not understanding DYRL until 1994.

2. Kawamori needs to work on his storytelling in making this more clear. (There is simply no way a fan could have deduced that DYRL was a movie with what was given, not even with FB2012-- prior to 1994.)

Creative geniuses tend to like to plant *solid* hints to show the reader where he's going, and that twists in the plot were planned from the beginning. *Solid* hints that make you go "ooooh" don't exist in SDF, DYRL, or 2012.

3. There was simply no definitive role for DYRL in the SDF timeline and continuity upon its release, and Studio Nue didn't care, nor did they think fans would.

Obviously, if 3 is true. And I think it is... they were wrong.

-Al

-Fact: No one here has "any" statement, past or present, that DYRL was ever intended to fully stand alone from the continuity.

True. Just as no one has any *statement* that predates 1994, with the release of Macross +, that suggests DYRL was a movie within a movie *in its inception*.

-Fact: we have current support that comfirms it is intended to be included into the continuity as a movie within the series.

Yes. *Now*. The earliest support being in 1994 from Kawamori and crew's own mouth.

-Fact: Flash Back 2012 (created in '87) shows us an event (the Megaroad-01 launch) that reflects DYRL being part of the TV continuity.

Footage in Flash Back 2012, showing both SDF and DYRL elements... and its real meaning... is up for *interpretation*.

Your interpretation of the two is that DYRL fits in the continuity (and thus *must* have been considered a movie even at that time). Others interpret the mixture of footage being simply for dramatic effect and to show how the design has changed... without actually saying anything about how the old design fits within the fiction itself.

But, no mention of the "fiction within a fiction" was explicitly stated until 10 years after DYRL, when Kawamori had to sort out the continuity messes that rose with Mac+/Mac7.

Interpretation does not "fact" make. 2012 does not definitively *prove* that DYRL was always intended to be a movie within a movie in its inception. Watching it will only give one certain impressions based on how *he* interprets it.

Neither interpretation can be thrown around as "fact" without something more substantial. It is convincing only to you, because you're predisposed to the notion that Kawamori had a master plan even back then.

But interpretations that one finds absolutely convincing, only on the basis of one's own biases and predispositions... don't make good "facts". It is merely semi-supportive circumstantial evidence that could be argued either way. It isn't convincing or damning evidence to those who are slightly more cynical of the matter.

-Fact: The "Perfect Edition" of DYRL released in '92 supports this even further.

Not sure how they do exactly, other than packaging both DYRL and 2012 together as a bonus for the fans, and ending the story in a neat way. Yes, it can be interpreted that 2012 is sort of a shot of the "real world" of Macross at the time, sort of waking up from the fantasy of DYRL. But it sure doesn't view that way to any, except by fans who try to retcon their way out of the inconsistencies.

Again, it's still only one interpretation. For that interpretation to have weight, one must prove that 2012 itself, made 5 years prior to '92, was really intended to show that DYRL was part of the continuity as a work of fiction. There isn't enough explicit "evidence" in 2012 to settle the matter, period. And it only works by fanboy effort to retcon the whole situation. Just because a fan can interpret these disjoint pieces in a way that flows, doesn't mean that the creator had the exact same interpretation in mind in its inception.

If he did, then it begs the question of why the creator left so much room for confusion. Either:

1. Most Macross fans are idiots in not picking up these subtle but o-so-clear indications in 2012... except for a certain few enlightened individuals who seem to have picked up these vague "clues"... which *still* don't convince those to whom they're pointed out to.

2. Kawamori failed as a creator to make this relatively important aspect of DYRL clear to his audience, allowing them to be confused for nearly a decade before explaining it patiently in plain words to them...

3. Kawamori didn't explicitly intend DYRL to be a fiction within a fiction in its inception. It was just a retcon job, and he didn't care about continuity all that much. (He's said so himself in regards to Macross 0).

Now I'm not  even going to get into how Plus & 7 drive the point home even harder by their overt inclusion of DYRL & the TV series side by side, these are again the things which are easily available for all to see.

No one disputes that the *current* official and accepted explaination of DYRL is that given in Mac 7 (retcon). But Mac 7 does nothing to "prove" that DYRL was a movie within a movie in its *inception* 10 years prior. Thus it bears no weight on the issue.

I could also go into how the structure of the movie is designed so that it can't really fully stand on its own, and requires pre-existing series knowledge of events before & after those depicted to get a good grounding for what's going on.

DYRL does require SDF viewing to make sense. DYRL however does nothing to explain why it *doesn't* make sense in terms of continuity. It's been said by Kawamori way back that DYRL was just another telling of the story, as real as SDF is. And it's really just eyecandy and a treat for Macross fans. No mention of a movie within a movie. It caused confusion without explaining anything... because it was meant to be treated as just another piece of entertainment. Not to be placed under the scruitiny of continuity.

Instead I'll just say this. Trasnlate the scan's above, trasnlate the movie trailers, and whatever other material may be available. What you won't find is any proof supporting either side. What this amounts to is how much do you trust Kawarmori & Nue. I fully support their stance on this issue, and they've never done anything to make anyone believe that DYRL was intended to be anything but a movie within the continuity. This is where I stand, and what a firm ground it is.

"Trust" is not fact. Fact simply is Kawamori and company never brought up the movie within the movie aspect until 10 years later. The rest is largely interpretation of existing material *in hindsight*, armed *with the retcon explaination*. This is not a good way to go about deducing a creator's intent. It is only convincing to the fan with something at stake and something to prove.

You can accuse me of not supplying proof all you like, but when all is said an done, what stronger proof do you need than an official stance by the staff which created it?

The official stance came in 1994. It is the official and accept explaination now. In the 10 years between DYRL's creation, and 1994, there has been *no* mention of a movie within the continuity. Period. Even when Kawamori was given opportunity to explain the continuity descrepancies. He simply stated that both tellings were "real".

A stance that came in 1994 does not give proof that this was the intended stance 10 years prior to when it was issued.

Fact remains that those 10 years provided Kawamori plenty of time to both make things clear to fans (which he didn't) and to come up with some retcon explaination after the fact (which he did, eventually)...

He didn't feel the need to, despite the confusion that resulted... until he simply had to-- with Mac+/Mac7 on the horizon.

The last argument is equivalent to arguing that George Lucas always intended Stormtroopers in Star Wars to be clones, because he hints them being such in AOTC, made 20 years later. Any official "canon" explaination saying Stormtroopers are clones *now* does not make clear that such was always the intent from the beginning. Regardless of whether we "trust" Kawamori or Lucas, the argument is really one and the same. And neither show that much of a rabid concern for continuity, period.

The plain fact is... neither Kawamori nor Lucas cares about continuity and consistency within their created words as you do.

-Al

I would really be pissed off if they decide to release huge , unpractical , 1/48 M+ toys , not because I don't want spectacular M+ toys but because I belive Yamato is now able to make good quality toys without the need for them to make them in 1/48 scale (look at the Q-Rau and Mosnter ; furthermore , if they weren't sure that they can offer high quaility toys in smaller scales they wouldn't have decided to go with 1/72 for the upcoming M0 toys )

Why would you be "pissed off", so long as they released other versions of the Mac+ valks?

Oh wait, they already have, funny enough.

Some of us folks are insane enough to want a 1/48 YF-21. It would actually be something new. But we wouldn't mind if they rehashed the designs for the smaller scales. Who knows, maybe they'll do a new Mac+ toy in 1/60 or 1/72.

-Al