kalvasflam

Nice as that scene is, I would prefer some more variety, through in a few naked Starbucks and Sixes and we got ourselves a party, sorry guys, all for me, lol.

ewwww, don't say naked Starbucks, it's just wrong to want to see Dirk Benedict naked.

Scary.... although if it was Sixes, just let me know how many times and how many ways humanity need to be betrayed.

Priceless but you know Lucas is going to try to appeal to mass audiences, he won't torture the beloved JarJar.

yeah, but how hard would it be to digitally add in Jar Jar to the fight scene between Yoda and the Emperor. Both of them would pick up Jar Jar and throw him and the other guy... or, Jar Jar is sitting in one of those senate booth thingies as he is mercilessly thrown at the emperior by Yoda.

Yoda thinks: "you dumbass prick alien, this is for getting Palpatine the frigging clone army in the first place... you froggy a-hole."

I wish Lucas could do a little fan service by putting in Jar Jar and then having either Vader or the Emperor choke him until stuff comes gushing out of his eyeballs. I bet you'd get a massive cheer if that were put on screens.

Mes can't breathe, mes can't breath.... POP.

whoever suggested Joe's Shanghai place got the name wrong, it's joe's ginger, but he was dead on about the quality of the food. the dumplings are the best that I've tasted in the U.S.

Definitely the place to go for quality Chinese food.

Did they change the name? I know it used to be called Joe's Shanghai a couple years back, and that's what my Zagat calls it. However, it has been a couple years....

it's only a name... it was in the right place, and the food was good. That's all I cared about. I didn't have a quality map of NYC, so stumbled around China town for 20 minutes looking for it. But the good food more than made up for the time I spent looking.

Definitely recommend the place.

whoever suggested Joe's Shanghai place got the name wrong, it's joe's ginger, but he was dead on about the quality of the food. the dumplings are the best that I've tasted in the U.S.

Definitely the place to go for quality Chinese food.

as much as I like to say that anything is possible.  This is a bit too much...  F-117 could've done better dropping bombs on the playboy mansion.  At least that would've pissed off every ordinary American.

Now, had Phoenix been a test version of the F-22, or even the YF-23, then I'd have believed it, and gave this episode props for being original.

I think "Phoenix" was maybe just a call sign, since the aircraft was properly identified as an F-117 this episode. Stealing an F/A-22 from Edwards would have been more believable, but they probably didn't have the right stock footage to use.

I know the call sign part... but it's just so sad, the Raptor would've been a better choice. Nighthawks were made for dropping bombs....

Heck, I would've settled for an F-15 used to escort the president. heh heh

as much as I like to say that anything is possible. This is a bit too much... F-117 could've done better dropping bombs on the playboy mansion. At least that would've pissed off every ordinary American.

Now, had Phoenix been a test version of the F-22, or even the YF-23, then I'd have believed it, and gave this episode props for being original.

OK enough of the teenage girls already. Who's got some of Capt. Ramius?

Oooh, very nice, it's obvious she isn't a natural... ha ha.

Economically feasible?  What does that mean?  Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS?  In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

Transformable MS almost never reach mass production due to the costs of the extra mechanisms required for the transformation. Both manufacturing it, and supplying maintenance to it.

Orb, however, has a mass-produced transforming mobilesuit in addition to its Astray units. This suggests that they have superior manufacturing facilities that allow for the manufacture of transforming MS without excessive rises in costs per unit.

Faita, thanks for putting things in such a nice form. You are looking at it from a point of view of practical usage versus functionality. Kind of like having an expensive multirole aircraft capable of bombing and dogfights vs cheaper airplanes designed either specifically for dogfights or for bombing.

Phoenix, in addition to that concept, the issue is also a matter of economics. Superior manufacturing and maintanence capability might in turn mean significantly more expensive and hence not easily mass produced. The problem is you have no idea the expense involved in producing a Murasame vs a Windam.

As already pointed out, in terms of capabilities, a Windam is not too far different from a Murasame, slightly different roles, but similar capabilities. But if a Windam costs half as much to maintain and to service, then Orb's manufacturing ability is suddenly awfully pathetic. At best, you can say you don't know that Orb has superior manufacturing and you don't know the industrial capabilties of EA/PLANT. But you can't jump to the conclusion Orb has superior tech based on the fact they've mass produced Murasame. Keep in mind, they probably don't have the same number of Murasame as EA has Windams or ZAFT has Zakus.

Not nessesarily. The Alliance doesn't need Orb, but it would be an excellent asset, and having it could certainly make life easier. The Alliance doesn't need Orb's resources it wants Orb's resource. And if they can't get it then taking it out would make life easier as well by eliminating a potential threat and denying that resource to the enemy.

They do not contradict and yes you can have both ways. See going after Orb is a win win situation for the Alliance. Orb joins the Alliance, Alliance wins. Orb refuses and gets crushed again, Alliance wins.

We agree that it may be an asset, as in it doesn't hurt to have another ally. But, it's a different track you take depending on whether you get them through diplomacy (getting their assets without losing your own) or getting them through warfare.

The objectives are different:

If you want to have the asset by force, you plan the battle in a way to preserve the asset. It incurs losses on your assault force because you have to physically take and hold an objective.

If you want to take it out, you can stand off bombard without encroachment and having to fight through all the defenses. i.e. reduce losses. If you want to put it in context. They could use nukes. That will wipe out Orb without any losses at all on the part of their conventional military.

It's fundamentally contradictory objectives due to the potential losses in troops. What this means is you have to carefully quantify and analyze the risk vs reward options for launching a full scale invasion.

The middle ground doesn't exist. You can't say, well, we'll try to take it by force, but if it doesn't work, then we'll blow it up. Because at that point, you would've already lost troops trying to take it. What you propose would be militarily wasteful and insane especially when you have the option of blowing it up without losing any conventional forces in the first place.

And the kicker here is, you have no idea how much troops EA would lose in an assault during the GSD time frame. At this point, you would consider EA and ZAFT to be equal. If it turns out you lose an unacceptable amount of conventional forces, then you suddenly put yourself vs your main enemy.

Quick, what's vital in the LA region that a pair of 2000 lb bombs can wreck?

The Playboy Mansion?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

How dare the Mummy strike at the true source of America's greatness... the monthly playmates.

9:17 PM: Fake Pilot:  The jet’s OK to fly…

Chief: What was wrong with it?

Fake Pilot: The BP8 was broken, had to get a replacement.

This just made my day!

So? Does anyone thick that this Stealth Fighter (or is it a Bomber) will be able to go up against AF-1?

I wonder what the HUGE TWIST is gonna be. Another mole?

Wait a minute, if we keep with military realism here. It means a ramming mission for the F-117. F-117 don't carry air to air ordanance. They call it a stealth fighter but it's actually a tactical bomber.

Although you almost think an F-15 with guns and missiles would do better against AF1. But if you'd ram anyway, it doesn't matter.

But may be that's just a big decoy. May be the F-117 is carrying bombs, and they're going to bomb some place... Quick, what's vital in the LA region that a pair of 2000 lb bombs can wreck?

Now where did I say the Murasame was more advanced than the ZAKUs or Windams? I said, the Murasames must be economically feasible otherwise ORB won't have them. EA and ZAFT don't have mass-produced transformable MSs, so that must mean something about the Murasame. (Thank you DarkPhoenix, nice to know some else is paying attention)

So, what you just said is you have no clue what advantage Orb has because of the ability to produce transformable MS. i.e. it can transform, therefore Orb must hold some advantage or it must mean something. But you have no idea what it means. But it must be an advantage because ZAFT and EA don't mass produce transformable MS. Or are you saying it's not an advantage at all to be able to mass produce transformable MS?

Since you are ruling out that Murasames are superior. We can close down that one avenue then. Or did you not mean that? Again. Clarify... superior or not compared to Zakus and Windams?

Economically feasible? What does that mean? Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS? In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

Point 2. You're not looking at the scenario, the premise is that Orb says no thanks to diplomatic efforts. EA would have no choice but to go military.  Then EA is risking no gain and losses in taking over Orb.  You were fond of using the special mobile suit exception earlier, so, now AA and Freedom comes into play in defense of Orb, suddenly, your losses start to shoot up in addition to no gain.  At which point it's costing even more to do a military takeover that gets nothing tangible in return. 

I'll agree if you're limiting the option to diplomatic efforts and threat of military.  But the second you go military option, then the equation doesn't add up any more. 

Your argument: neither EA or ZAFT gets Orb if Orb goes down makes no sense.  Because it will take material effort to put down Orb, material effort that might not get anything especially in context of recent past. 

Think of it like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds.  It's not a rational action.

Are you talking the first war or the second war?

Either way both occations the Alliance had no knowledge that Archangel or Freedom were even at Orb. Hence it never factored into the Alliance's plans. I'm trying to look at this situation the way the Alliance's high command would look at it.

How does the argument that if Orb goes scorched earth neither the Alliance or ZAFT gets them as an ally, not make sence? Let look at it, Orb destorys it's own R&D facilites, it's gone now, not in the hands of the Alliance or ZAFT. Neither sides can collaborate with Orb to fight the other side.

"like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action."

So are you saying it would take ALL of the Alliance's resources to occupy Orb? As I said before even with Freedom and Archangel there, they can only do so much, they can't be at several places at once. If you don't think numbers can't be a big factor just go look at WW2. The Earth Alliance is made up of five big superstates, it would take a fraction of their resources to take Orb.

Talking purely about GSD.

Only as purely a military takeover without the second side getting involved. I'm not saying it takes all of the EA to take Orb, I'm saying EA have enough problems they can't afford to just casually throw around resources and make new enemies without a solid guaranteed gain in the venture. It take non trivial material factors to take over Orb. If EA is truly all that big, and Orb is that trivial, why waste time pulling it in in the first place. It's trivial.

Even if you take away Freedom and AA. It's a fight that requires resources with high probability of no gain. Risk vs Reward is the point I'm making.

The amount of force to take over Orb either trivial because Orb is trivial, or non-trivial because Orb is non-trivial, you can't have it both ways. The rewards are not obvious in this case. So, do you take a risk?

Let's take a different analogy from the last.

- There is a box with something in it. (read as unknown rewards for taking Orb)

- In order to retrieve that something, you have to stick your hand in the box. (read as military action)

- It is a sure thing that your hand will get hurt to some degree when you stick it into the box, but you're not sure exactly how much. (read Orb will fight back and inflict losses).

- There is a probability that the act of sticking the hand into the box will destroy whatever is of value. (read self destruct of valuable assets)

So, then the question is, do you stick your hand in that box?

The answer is yes if and only if you meet the following conditions:

- the reward is well defined

- the reward is great enough to offset losses incurred

- good probability of obtaining reward based on past history

The speculation on what Orb has is just not good enough. The impasse we're at seem to be just what the Orb really has to offer.

Since we will never get agreement, I think we'll end up debating in circles.

Finally, in terms of objectives you had, is the objective to obtain the resources of Orb or simply deny it to the other side? You can't have it both ways. These are conflicting objectives to start with. The former implies you need the resources at Orb, the later imply you don't care what happens to it as long as the other side doesn't get it. It factors significantly into what resources EA high command would spend in accomplishing the said objectives.

It shouldn't have taken long for Orb to rebuild it's military, all the vital stuff and personel like Erica Simmoms were loaded on the Kusanagi.

Yeah you can go by the anime, but mangas tend to reveal a lot of stuff too. Just because we don't see anything in the anime better than a Murasame doesn't mean they don't have anything. If you went by just the anime, you'd have no idea the Astray Gundams even existed or that it was Lowe's group that repaired the Archangel. So whether or not Orb has something else or not is open to specuation. We're not getting a definitive answer just going off the anime.

Orb could go scorched earth again that's true, why do you think the Alliance didn't use force as their first option. So what if Orb goes scorched earth, yeah the Alliance doesn't get them, but neither does ZAFT.

Even though it fell, Orb was still a major player at the end of the war. The Kusanagi provided the Three Ships Alliance with just about all their mobile suits. Kusanagi can carry much more mobile suits than Archangel can. So speaking of a wider war, it would be nice to either have them as allies or eliminate them. Why go after them without a guarunteed big pay off? I already told you, they would still get a pay off (Orb as an ally or eliminated as a potential threat) for little cost.

Point 1. Congratulations, you have a few personnel, and your infrastructure is trash. It takes time to build up infrastructure regardless. So, your potential is reduced by however long it takes to rebuild your military manufacturing infrastructure, you can't have that at the snap of a finger.

Point 2. You're not looking at the scenario, the premise is that Orb says no thanks to diplomatic efforts. EA would have no choice but to go military. Then EA is risking no gain and losses in taking over Orb. You were fond of using the special mobile suit exception earlier, so, now AA and Freedom comes into play in defense of Orb, suddenly, your losses start to shoot up in addition to no gain. At which point it's costing even more to do a military takeover that gets nothing tangible in return.

I'll agree if you're limiting the option to diplomatic efforts and threat of military. But the second you go military option, then the equation doesn't add up any more.

Your argument: neither EA or ZAFT gets Orb if Orb goes down makes no sense. Because it will take material effort to put down Orb, material effort that might not get anything especially in context of recent past.

Think of it like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action.

For technology at start of each series:

GS: Orb > PLANT (?) > Alliance

GSD: PLANT (?) > Orb = Alliance (consider this, if the trio of new Gundams weren't superior to everything else either in the field or existance (Freedom excepted), why would the Alliance steal them? The same argument applied to GS when the first four gundams were stolen)

That's iffy. Why? Because PLANT didn't implement beam technology in their first generation suits. EA and ORB did.

The term first generation is a misnomer if you're not taking into consideration the time frame. How long did PLANT have MS prior to the emergence of the first EA/Orb mobile suit?

Were the first generation suits of EA/Orb more advanced than the first generation of ZAFT suits? Sure. But the time frame for the release of the first generation EA suits were almost equal to the time frame of release for the second generation of ZAFT suits.

Now, if you're talking GSD, for general MS, they're on par.

You could make the argument that PLANT was ahead during the start of GS in a general sense if you didn't take into account special MS. If you take the sepcial MS into account and look at it in the context of five months time frame, by then PLANT could still be argued as ahead because their second gen suits included NJCs. Or on par if you considered general production MS.

It's all a matter of time frames.

You say potential... that's nice, but until you can quantify the potential (I'm assuming you're still talking about weapons technology), it doesn't mean anything.

Here are the facts:

1. military R&D infrastructure on Orb destroyed during GS.

2. immigration of many coordinators (ep 1 GSD) who according to Shinn in ep 20 GSD were making the largest contribution to Orb technology.

All the facts would point to a reduction of potential. But there is no way to quantify what that remaining potential is. So, at best we're left speculating on what potential they have.

Based on just the facts, MS technology indicates that they have no more potential than EA or ZAFT. I don't buy the argument that Murasame is more advanced, if it's just the ability to transform, wonderful... what exactly does that buy you? There is no proof at all that Murasames are superior to Zakus or Windams in performance. So at best, it's just speculation.

You are not getting what I am saying, and no I am not mixing it up. Those events are linked, you can't talk about Destiny without mentioning what happend in the first war. Otherwise how can you even explain the current situation of why they're scared of the Alliance?

I'm not saying Orb has any advantage over either ZAFT or the Alliance in Destiny.

We can all agree that Orb has the potential to make powerful weapons right? They've done it before, right?

Now in Destiny, wouldn't it be a reasonable inferrece that they could stil make good weapons? So what if they don't currenty have a Gundam, maybe they had no incentive to build one until now. As side from the stolen ones the Alliance has no Gundams. Orb had no counter to Calamity and the other suits because they were busy building up thier military with M1s and didn't even know those suits existed until they stopped for a visit. Or are you telling me that in two years they just went retarded and the best they can come up with is the Murasame? Back in the last war Uzumi was in charge, he had no problem making weapons, but Cagali who was running things for awhile did.

Now here's a small country, but they have the capability to develop good weapons, wouldn't take too much effort to take over. Agreed right? Now this country could potentialy work with the enemy and produce some powerful units, right? They've done it before, right? So why not take it over, and not only do they not work with they enemy, but now work with us?

The Alliance know's Orb's potential, and they want to secure that potential for themselfs. Since it didn't take much effort, why pass on the chance to make them an ally? I never said it would be a guarunteed big pay off, but it's not like the Alliance lost anything bringing them into the fold.

Point 1. Orb has the potential to develop weapons you say, but so does everyone else. In fact, if you look on the technology curve, EA and ZAFT are not behind the curve due to past events. At best, they're even.

In terms of development in GSD. You can go by what's in the anime. I'm saying that there is no evidence they have anything more advanced than Murasame. Has the anime shown anything more advanced than that? The answer is no. You can't infer ability based on what's not there. Orb itself had to be rebuilt after GS events.

Point 2. The reason you have to decouple GS events from GSD events is exactly because Uzumi had a different set of circumstances from Cagalli. His infrastructure wasn't wiped out.

If anything you can infer that their technological development suffered a large set back because their R&D capabilities (military wise) was destroyed during GS, and it takes time to rebuild infrastructure. You can have the most brilliant engineer in the world, but if he doesn't have the infrastructure to support him, he isn't going to be putting together a state of the art MS in his garage.

Point 3. I disagree on the takeover. You say that there is a derived benefit from the bringing them into the fold. But you are also saying: "never said there would be a guaranteed big payoff." So then the question is why bother at all.

Here is the scenario, had Orb declined the invitation, and made the statement that if forced, they'll join the other side. And if as you say, there is no guarantee of a big payoff. What's the point of even trying to bringing them in by force? By diplomacy I can understand, no wasted effort there really. But by force makes no sense.

Even if there is no threat of joining the other side, but Orb resisted again, EA or ZAFT would waste resources on trying to take over things? Especially since they went scorched earth last time, there is a good chance they'll do it again. So, it's a waste of resources to just take over a barren rock if everything is wiped out.

EA may want to secure the potential, but if Orb showed backbone at all, then it becomes time wasted trying to secure a miniscule quantity of resources of unknown quality when there is a wider war to be fought.

So, bottom line, if you don't think it's a big pay off, would you risk going to attacking and probably not get anything?

No I'm not mixing it up, what's going on with Orb stems from what happed in the last war. You can't talk about them without mentioning the last war. It'll be like talking about Iraq, without mentioning 9-11.

I never said the primary developers were coordinators, I only said some of the engineers from Orb went to PLANT. For all we know right now the people most responsible for Orb's part in the GAT-X project are still there.

In times of war if someone you don't like has an ability you want you make them work for you regardless. The Nazis forced a group of Jews to make counterfeits for them. The Alliance could force those coordinators to work on mobile weapons for them. So the Alliance would most likely hold hostage their families and force them to work as opposed to kicking them out.

The EA was flooded with the GAT series, they had mass production variants of the Strike, Duel, and Buster. I'm not saying those Gundams themselfs would be mass produced but the technology implemented in them. The Duel/Long Dagger had the Fortresta Armor and the Buster Dagger used the gunlauncher and beam rifle from the Gundam. And they still are flooded with the GAT series, the Dagger Ls and the Windams both use the Strike's mission pack technology.

Untill we see more in the mangas or what not, we really don't know what Orb has, Gold Frame Amutrasu and the Izumo only appeared in the manga.

Yeah, you are mixing it up. You're saying Orb tech was a big advantage in GS, and therefore it is a big advantage in GSD. I'm saying it's not, I agree with the first part, but not the second part.

For technology at start of each series:

GS: Orb > PLANT (?) > Alliance

GSD: PLANT (?) > Orb = Alliance (consider this, if the trio of new Gundams weren't superior to everything else either in the field or existance (Freedom excepted), why would the Alliance steal them? The same argument applied to GS when the first four gundams were stolen)

You are saying that both side would want Orb because of their technology/ability to develop weapons. I'm saying, that's not true given that technology wise they're on par. In the weapons development case, Windam is not an Orb product, just as the trio of Gundams were not Orb products. They have incorporated Orb originated technology, but they are not Orb manufactured. i.e. Orb didn't sit side by side with the Alliance and design the Windams. Orb manufactured products are Murasame and Astray variants.

By extension, as Murasame/Astray are equivalent to Windams, therefore weapons development and technology is on par.

If you really are keen in tracing where technology came from, you'd have to say that the PLANTS are ahead because they had the first generation of suits, and there are almost certainly features incorporated into the Orb MS that came out of the original PLANT MS. The fact that Orb got ahead of them in GS doesn't mean anything in GSD, because it was a temporary advantage. PLANTS came out with the NJC equipped Gundams. Which Orb had no answer for. Alliance came out with their second gen GATs which Orb also had no answer for. Incorporated with Orb developed tech? Sure... but since Orb developed tech ain't a secret, it ain't an advantage.

So, the bottom line is, what's so important about Orb?

Stratigic location is a posibility.

Though when it comes to making powerful weapons Orb knows what it's doing. The Izumo-class battleships, Gold Frame Amuterasu, the first five Gundams. Orb indirctly had a hand with the Strike Daggers (being GMs of the Strike Gundam), the Archangel-class and possibly even the three new Gundams. Even ZAFT has to thank Orb for something, Orb is indirectly linked to Freedom and Justice. Imagine Freedom and Justice with no phase shift and no beam weapons. The some of the engineers who worked on the Archangel-class most likly fled to PLANT. Why do you think Minvera shares a lot of the same technology and design elements of the Archangel-class, when ZAFT never got thier hands on the ship. Minvera definatly looks closer to the Archangel-class than the Nazca-class.

Right now without Orb helping them, the most the Alliance has are Windams and refitted Agamemnon, Nelson, and Drake-class ships. Right now we don't know who is responsible for Girty Lue. If it wasn't Orb, then it was most likly technology dreived from things Orb had a hand in making.

The Alliance and ZAFT aren't after Orb the country they're after Orb the weapons developer.

You're mixing up GSD now with GS. Yes, Orb developed gundams, and BB in GS. What have they done lately? Nothing.

Murasame = Zaku = Windam. We're talking about mass produced MS only. Do you see Orb fielding a better mass produced MS? Ok, so in GSD, we're agreed that technology is about equal. No.

If you want to talk about weapons development, that's largely a function of having Coordinators in Orb, if those go away, there goes the advantage for the Alliance. Besides that, the newest Gundams are developed in ZAFT. It doesn't matter if the guys used to be Orb citizens, in the GSD time frame, those guys are on PLANT, not Orb.

So, if the primary weapons developer in Orb were coordinators, Alliance derives no benefit from picking up Orb, because they end up throwing out the coordinators.

Finally, you can't assume a prototype model will be a mass production variant. If that was the case, ZAFT would be rife with Freedoms, and the new prototype gundams. EA would be flooded with the GAT series, and Orb would have all their Astrays turned into one of the five original gundams. It's a issue with cost.

Azreal already said most of what I wanted to.

Anyway, how about the fact that until the EMP was deployed the GINNs were getting their asses handed to them by the Daggers, I seem to recall one GINN getting it's arms cut off then out of nowhere impaled by three Daggers before he could even react to losing his arms. I don't have a doubt the Alliance would have driven off ZAFT from Panama if it wasn't for their EMP.

As Asrael said earlier, the Cyclopse really took a massive chunck out of ZAFT's ass. They weren't even able to hold on to Victoria, meaning it wouldn't be long until they'd have to deal with an Alliance space fleet reinforced with Daggers built in factories on Earth. That's obviously something ZAFT would not want. The fact they didn't attack Australia could indicate that Carpentaria was depleated to the point where the Alliance didn't see them as a real threat at the moment. Even with Freedom and Justice, since ZAFT wouldn't be able to muster a sizable force to counter the Alliance, the Alliance would have taken Orb though sheer weight of numbers. Two suits can only cover so much area, with the Gundam trio tying them up, that would leave the hordes of Daggers free to deal with the M1s and do what they need to do to secure the island. No matter how powerful Freedom is, it can't be at two places at the same time, nor does it have something like Jehuty's Zero Shift in ZOE2.

What I mean by equal terms? Orb is not leaps and bounds beyond the Alliance or ZAFT. Windams, Murasames, and ZAKUs are on fairly even terms, no more tank against mobile suit. As I said earlier, the Alliance probably doesn't want those two to work togeather. Especialy since Orb developed the Izumo-class which lead to the Archangel-class, and Orb played a big role developing the first Gundams. Before taking Orb in Destiny, the Alliance has no idea what Orb has. If you were a member of the Alliance high command would you be happy with the idea of ZAFT getting the Gold Frame Amuterasu and mass producing it? Or Orb and ZAFT working togeather to create and even more potent suit?

Ok, just to be sure I get it right, this is separate from the GSD post above, we're talking about GS only at this point.

I think if the fight became protracted, ZAFT wins. You know why, they didn't have the Yzak character shield. After all, you wanted to use that when describing the fight with Orb. So, at Panama, Yzak was around, none of the druggies. Without EMP, Yzak wins. The best you can hope for is there is no evidence either way. But from what's happened in the show, ZAFT wins Panama without EMP. We can keep this up forever, and it'll still be difference of opinion.

No, the fact they didn't attack Australia and wiped out Victoria indicates that ZAFT still had too much forces at Australia. Australia throughout the show is billed as a major ZAFT base. Remember, they also need the mass driver facility, and as important as Australia is, it probably has one.

Remember, ZAFT offered its support to Orb. You say they couldn't muster enough troops, yet you don't know that Klueze's sub was the only one there. They left when it was obvious Orb would fall and they still won't call for help. The only thing you know for sure is that Orb refused ZAFT support, so there is at best no idea how much support ZAFT can offer. Also recall, according to the show, ZAFT deployed a large force at Victoria when it was overrun. If as you say, they had been so damaged, where the hell did they get that large force. You mean suddenly between the invasion of Orb and the taking of Victoria which happened almost immediately afterwards ZAFT magically had more forces appear? Don't think so....

Ok, time to go to the nxt post since you start talking about GSD again so that there isn't any confusion.

Yet the ZAFT regulars took down Panama after the loss at Alaska when arguably, the Alliance was more powerful at Panama with their MS.  I'm sorry, that line of argument doesn't hold water.  The EMP was a fast way to win, you had no obvious way of showing that EA was winning at Panama before the use of EMP.

...

You need to properly define what you mean by equal terms.  Because if it's technology, then Orb makes no difference to either ZAFT or EA in the grander scheme of things.  If it's military, then no one would've used the EA will wipe out Orb argument.  And Cagalli would've had a stronger come back against that line of reasoning.

...

So, we're not talking about two days of fighting, we're talking about much longer time frame when EA is deploying.  EA doesn't have limitless forces, to effectively take over Orb, they have to draw down somewhere.  And if ZAFT is able to expand resources helping those refugees in the Suez region, then I'm sure they can find ways to help Orb if an alliance was in the offing.

First off, you're mixing GS and GSD. You are looking at now and applying it to then. Different time, different circumstances.

ZAFT regulars won because they had the EMP. There is no way to show whether EA or ZAFT was winning because as soon as ZAFT secured certain spots, they deployed the EMP. Plain and simple. So don't think ZAFT would have won or EA would have won. As soon as ZAFT deployed the EMP, the game was over in the 2nd inning. And Panama was attacked with a small ZAFT force. Alaska dealt a serious blow to ZAFT.

Back in GS, ORB was a major technological country. In terms of mobility, Astrays performed better than the Strike Daggers and outclassed GINNs. It also had the Izumo-class ships. These ships outclassed any EA ship in technology. Most EA ships used conventional weaponry. Most the Archangel's design stems from ORB, as I said earlier. Even ZAFT didn't integrate some of the weapons found in the Izumo and Archangel-classes until GSD.

Two years later in GSD, these problems leveled themselves out. So the board is even.

ZAFT can help those refugees in in the Suez in GSD because they have help from local governments. The world changed in GSD. Eurasia no longer wanted to stand with the Atlantic Federation.

In GS, ZAFT suffered a good lost of troops at Alaska. They could have offered ORB assistance but it would not have done any good. With the lost at Alaska, the order came down to pull forces back to space where they could regroup. Panama was a parting shot. ZAFT also had a decent force holding Victoria and they still were defeated there. ORB would have fallen with or without ZAFT's help.

Ok, let's try this again.... Keeping everything in GSD. GS detour came up because some of the same basic references to military capabilties apply. i.e. similar naval operating tactics (ZAFT using subs, EA using surface combatants centered around carrier groups)

My points in all of this started out as:

1. Orb could stay neutral without too much trouble because they just don't have all that much worth while. Even if they did have something that important, they could stay neutral by threatening to ally to the enemy of whichever attacked them first.

2. The real question is why would anyone bother with Orb in the first place.

So ground rules:

We're agreed that technologically in GSD, everyone is pretty much even, Orb = EA = ZAFT right?

We're agreed that Orb is a relatively small country with limited population, right?

So, given that set of circumstances, why is there a disproportionate regard for Orb?

Ok, to support point 1, it's purely a question of how fast Orb's new allies can deploy their forces to defend Orb against their new enemy.

If the enemy was EA, their tactics seem to involve using carrier groups to physically take and hold ground. It takes time to assemble that force and move it with ships, so providing enough warning to Orb and their allies to properly redeploy.

Further, if the enemy was ZAFT, the tactics would likely involve shock attacks, probably using subs, in conjunction with orbital drops and air deployed mobile suits, as seen throughout both GS and GSD. The objective wouldn't be to hold ground so much as destroying a valuable target. This would be much more difficult to defend against, but Orb itself would likely not be conquered as in physically invaded with

troops deployed on the ground.

Now, onto point 2, if on technology, Murasame is equivalent to Windams and I suppose Zakus... then it doesn't really matter that much. With its limited population, I just can't see Orb as a major military power. If it had that much troops to be able to swing battles in the first place, neither side could risk going to war with Orb and risk a second battle.

The only plausible reason left is that Orb is a huge manufacturing giant. I can't dispute that, but there is no proof so far to that regard. Strategically, they might be well located against the Australia base for ZAFT that's it. So, the bottom line is, what's so important about Orb?

ZAFT wouldn't have been able to do much to help ORB in that last war. The Cyclopes system that was installed at Alaska took out a lot of their Earth forces, they only took out Panama because they had that EMP device. I don't think ZAFT regulars would have lasted long against Azrael's Gundam trio anyway. Even the Strike Daggers were supirior to the GINN.

In Destiny, Orb is more or less on even terms with the Alliance and ZAFT. The Alliance would not want Orb and ZAFT working togeather. It's not so much bringing them into the Alliance but more like keeping them out of ZAFT. Let's go back to the Singapore and U.S. analogy. I don't think they U.S. would want Singapore woking togeather and shareing it's technology with Iraq or North Korea.

Yet the ZAFT regulars took down Panama after the loss at Alaska when arguably, the Alliance was more powerful at Panama with their MS. I'm sorry, that line of argument doesn't hold water. The EMP was a fast way to win, you had no obvious way of showing that EA was winning at Panama before the use of EMP.

Azrael's trio is cancelled out by Freedom/Justice. No, ZAFT's presence would've made a big difference because Orb was overwhelmed by numbers. With ZAFT around, that would not have happened. If you turn around and say that the trio would just focus on normal suits, then so could the Freedom and Justice, and you'd still end up with a bloody draw.

You need to properly define what you mean by equal terms. Because if it's technology, then Orb makes no difference to either ZAFT or EA in the grander scheme of things. If it's military, then no one would've used the EA will wipe out Orb argument. And Cagalli would've had a stronger come back against that line of reasoning.

Azrael, if Orb asked for help from ZAFT, they would've had indications of aggressive EA moves ahead of time. Remember, you can't just have a fleet of warships magically appear off your coast with no warning. ZAFT may be capable, because they could theoretically deploy a entire fleet of MS carrying subs right off of Orb. But EA is centered on surface carriers from what we see.

So, we're not talking about two days of fighting, we're talking about much longer time frame when EA is deploying. EA doesn't have limitless forces, to effectively take over Orb, they have to draw down somewhere. And if ZAFT is able to expand resources helping those refugees in the Suez region, then I'm sure they can find ways to help Orb if an alliance was in the offing.

Nice shot of the Russian carrier. Did they ever make the SU-30 IB, or whatever it's called (Platypus I think) into a carrier version? Last I recall the SU-25 would've been used as the carrier strike aircraft, but those things are just so darn ugly... yet incredibly effective against ground targets.

Sure it's small but in terms of technology and scientific know-how they at least on the same level of the Alliance. Look at the upgraded Gold Frame, you do not want to screw with that unit and it's upgrades were carried out by Orb. In the last war the Izumo-class was second only to the Archangel-class. Sure Lowe had his computer helping him, but he was still a Natural piloting a mobile suit long before the Alliance got their Daggers rolling out and Kira creating the OS for Orb. What the Alliance wants is their technological ability, not nessesarily their military capability.

Hai hai.

Although I would word the opening statement as as small military power, large technological and scientific know-how.

Everyone else is at war, adding Orb as an enemy would make no sense. If neutrality was so important, the easiest thing to have done would've been to put out a statement that indicated that Orb will side with the opponent of the first side that attacks it. Now, this is a good way to get run over by trains from both direction, but it's not unreasonable.

If ORB allied with ZAFT, they would have been attacked by EA. ORB didn't win the last time they fought EA. What makes you think they would win this time? ORB now has allied itself with EA. They are open to attack from ZAFT. And ZAFT is pounding on EA in the European region (i.e EA is losing territory).

As Anubis pointed out, had Orb been allied with ZAFT the last time, the balance would've seriously been tipped the other way. Orb lost because they got outnumbered and fought by themselves. This would not have necessarily been the case if they had ZAFT backing them. Now all of a sudden EA would've had problems

Anubis, you point out that it would take time for ZAFT to deploy to Orb to support. I agree. But, considering how close ZAFT's base is to Orb, it would not take very long for them to get to Orb. They could also do orbital drops. Which would provide the most immediate need for Orb in case of an attack, troops.

But beyond that, there is a consideration of movement. Whoever moves against Orb cannot do it instantaneously. Judging from how EA military works, it would be a massive fleet that would take days to arrive. Giving everyone advance warning. And then more than enough time for Orb to get reinforcements.

The same would probably apply to ZAFT, although they don't seem to have as a massive presence on Earth, and are geared mainly to holding strategic areas with the ability to deploy lots shock troops, it doesn't seem as if their infrastructure is geared as well to holding positions. (very analogous to the U.S. military today, great for smashing aside any opposition, but not nearly as good in holding territory they conquered) Orbital drops by themselves cannot take all of Orb. It would be like sending in tanks without infantry or air support.

The technology part I just don't buy, at least, not any more. On the surface, the Windams seem to match Astrays. Now, the Murasames may be a bit better in terms of mobility, but that's about it. I just don't see Orb as having as much of an edge in destiny as they had in seed.

If they're on the same level as the Alliance, then that means they don't mean anything unless they had a sufficiently large military. (Which doesn't seem plausible considering how small their overall country is) It's like comparing the U.S. to Singapore. Same level of technology and scientific advances, but you don't gain much by bringing Singapore nto the U.S.

well, she could've always resorted to pulling out her little brother with his unstoppable war machine.  Calls in the parlimentary meeting, and then make a phone call: "cough cough, I am feel naseous, will be 15 minutes late."  In the interim, Kira accidentally blows up the building...

Ok, it's a real good point though.  She was just in a bad spot, the fact her only mentors were the people who wanted to usurp her pretty much screwed her.

Agreed, it was a no-win situation. Cagalli has now, tried everything she could to not involve ORB in the war, but everything she's tried has failed. Cagalli is not so much trying to stop a war but, trying to keep ORB out of the mess. That is the reason why she went out. ORB is her home country. First and foremost, Cagalli is doing what she should as a leader, protecting her country. She already tried to stop the war and it didn't work. Now she tried to stop her own people from getting involved. That has now failed. She doesn't have many options left but to do things the hard way...again.

But in a funny way, that's what Yuna and company are doing. Although their motivation seem to be power for themselves. Realistically though, if you take a detached view of things, Orb's position around episode 8 and 9 would've been pretty easy.

Everyone else is at war, adding Orb as an enemy would make no sense. If neutrality was so important, the easiest thing to have done would've been to put out a statement that indicated that Orb will side with the opponent of the first side that attacks it. Now, this is a good way to get run over by trains from both direction, but it's not unreasonable.

And people keep mentioning how powerful Orb is and how it can change the calculus of the war, but that's ridiculous. It's a pathetically small country. If it was that powerful, it wouldn't even need to worry about violation of its neutrality.