Egan Loo
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Posts posted by Egan Loo
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That´s why when in doubt one must ask in the Macross World forum
As you can see in this thread — as in any thread on any Internet forum — you're just as likely to get wrong answers as the right ones.
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Agreed on the Compendium stuff. As I have stated earlier (or elsewhere,) the compendium is mostly correct, but it does have errors and inconsistencies. If you want, here are some examples off of the top of my head:
Wrong number of conformally mounted missiles for the VF-4 (claims 6, when there is really 12.)
The This is Animation Special: Macross Plus book is the only printed source that lists the number of missiles, and it states six long-range missiles. No official source ever stated otherwise. Either the book has a typo (that has never been corrected in subsequent official sources with VF-4 stats) or fans are counting what aren't standard missiles loads. For now, the Macross Compendium sticks with the official stats.
VF-4, VF-11 and VF-5000 contradict each other re: when which was the main fighter of the UNS.The VF-4 and the VF-5000 both assumed the role of main fighter of the UN Forces (not UN Spacy) in the 2020s. The VF-4 was intended as the main fighter of all the branches from 2020 onward, but the VF-5000, with its lower cost and superb atmospheric maneuverability, assumed the role for several of its branches during the later half of the 2020s. The VF-11 took over from the VF-4 in the UN Spacy and eventually the rest of the UN Forces. Again, this is all detailed in This Is Animation Special: Macross Plus.
Inconsistant use of Supervision Army and Inspection Army, when they are one and the same.Where does it say "Inspection"? According to Toshimichi Suzuki, who was there when Macross was being developed, it should be the Supervision Army. He made sure to emphasize this in phonetics.
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Also the Auerstadt only had 20 launch tubes
The Auerstädt doesn't have 20 launch tubes for fighters.
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Now the funny thing about those anti-gravity engines (as per Macross Perfect Memory,) they are always and ONLY seen immediately before a ship begins using anti-gravity.
Good points. Save that the similar looking engines in the SDF-1 ARE described as anti-gravity generators, in Japanese.
Neither the first Macross series nor Macross Perfect Memory use the term "anti-gravity" or "anti-gravity generator." The Macross creators prefer the term gravity control.
"Macross Special Preview: Do you remember love?" states that the lower 1/3 of the lower legs are the "main reaction engine" - which makes sense, as that is where the engine nozels are. The upper 2/3 of the lower legs contain the food (life necessity) production block, and (civilian) living quarters in the starboard, and the "busy city" in the port.It actually says the business district, the counterpart to the residential district in the starboard.
The military block is in the central chest, with the main waste (garbage) incinerator composing the spine.It actually says the main reactor.
The two "breasts" contain the sub-reaction engine, and the anti-gravity engines,It actually says the lifting sub-reaction engines and the gravity control systems.
and the two 'prongs' above the shoulders contain the 'booster cannon.' (pg. 44)It actually says the main gun/buster cannon.
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While the Compendium is officially sanctioned by Big West and Egan AFAIK, bases all his information on tranlated Japanese source material, I'd have to second that it is not always 100% accurate (more like 99%!). It's the closest thing we have to accurate but the odd mistake has been known to creep in.
Thanks for the catching that typo'ed letter earlier this year!
Often the problem lies in omission rather than outright mistakes. In that just because something is not mentioned in the specs, doesn't mean it might not be there.Indeed, this is the case with the Macross universe as a whole. For both the Macross universe (and thus the Compendium), it is less a problem and more of a work in progress. One example is the VF-9. There were fans who complained after the VF-9 became officially Macross with the M3 game release that it shouldn't exist. According to them, that's because the YF-19 was supposedly the "first" forward-swept-wing variable fighter. However, in the 12+ years since the YF-19 was made public, neither the Macross creators nor the Macross Compendium ever said it was the first. As often is the case with Macross, it is better to omit what the creators have not fully spec'ed out, than to assume what the creators haven't specifically stated. That's the Macross Compendium's philosophy.
Neither the Macross creators nor the Macross Compendium are perfect, but we do what we can while not going crazy over it.
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Macross Compendium is a great site and I have nothing against it, but we should not follow it blindly or try to accomodate our ideas to fit in their descriptions.
In the case of Asuka's size and the OT beam gun, it would be the creators' own words that fans would be following, and the creators' own descriptions that fans should accommodate their ideas.
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We should revise what the Macross Compendium has, specially the size of the Asuka, with only 250 meters in length
Revising the 250-meter class statistic for the Asuka II would be revising the creators' own words. They themselves set the length of the craft as being "small-scale" in the "250-meter class." That's even written in the Volume 4 liner notes. It is deliberately smaller than the biggest carriers today, in fitting with the story setting. Keep in mind that the creators never said it was exactly 250 meters long, just that it is in the "250-meter class."
it would be about the size of the british Invincible Class VTOL carrier, and lets face it, you cant squeeze 4 catapults and 4 elevator in the Invincible.The Invincible-class carrier is only 194 meters in length, not 250-meter class.
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I still wonder why the macross compendiumstates that there is only one OT gun mounted on the Asuka.
Because that is what designer Kazutaka Miyatake wrote in his notes.
You're mistaking the OT beam gun for something else. -
I discovered a lot about the carrier on my own, enough to dispute the affirmation of it being a small scale carrier only 250 meters long, almost like the french CVN Charles de Gaulle.
If you're disputing the 250-meter-class length, you're disputing the creators' own words. It's even in the DVD liner notes.
On to the Asuka´s armament. Internet sources describe it with 5 Mk-15B phalanx CIWS, one of them is mounted on the island´s starboard side; 1 beam cannon, I discovered it has 2 beam cannons one on each side of the bow, notably the port beam cannon is destroyed by Nora in episode 3; and last, a VLS cell for anti-aircraft missiles, sea sparrow or SM-2, all those weapons along with the 6 destroids should give the carrier an incredible AAW capability.Those units at the bow are not the OT beam gun that designer Kazutaka Miyatake listed in his design for the Asuka II. We don't see those bow units firing OT beams. On top of these, associate designer Junya Ishigaki added still more weapon systems that can be seen in Volume 3, but these haven't been spec'ed out.
By the way, that "Mk-15B" doesn't come from the creators. Neither the Macross creators nor the Macross Compendium ever said that there were specifically 5 CIWS units.
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I stand corrected on the rest, however writing treatments isn't "writing" the episode. Treatments are outlines that evolve and change as a series is written and as directors have "inspirations" during production. The series' episodes often only loosely resemble their treatments if at all after they are shot.
Thus claiming he "wrote" every episode other than the ones he "actually" did pen, is misleading and erroneous.
It would be, but no one said he "wrote every episode." What he did do is conceive and write the overall story. What was misleading and erroneous was claiming "he wasn't involved in the initial 'setting of the rules' in terms of the story of SDF Macross," when that was quite literally one of his job titles.
After 5 years SK would still be considered "new", however it would stand to reason that he be given a greater voice since the series was his idea.In a multi-decade company, that would be true, but in a studio that was only eight years old itself when Macross aired, he was already considered an equal there long before that point. (Japanese animation was still in what many considered the golden age at that point.) That was all the more true because this project was the first concept entirely conceived within Studio Nue to be green-lit for animation production. He definitely wasn't, as it was so inelegantly worded earlier, one of the "bitches."
The director does not have the final say in what offered to be shot and what is edited and released from what is shot in all cases, and definitely not in many cases in Japanese animated series. Ishiguro has gone on record as saying that he didn't have a final word on several works, most notably on Macross and Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
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I was being a bit facetious. I'm not saying Kawamori is not important to Macross -- he definitely is. I'm saying he's not the only important person. I've seen other anime that many of the Artland/Nue staffers worked on that Kawamori did not have a huge role (or any role) in, and they are still really good. Giving him credit for everything is wrong and insulting to the other people who worked hard on created the series we love so much. It especially irks me when people totally ignore Ishiguro Noboru.
Kawamori is definitely not the only important person in Macross, but he is arguably the most important person. Take for example how Ishiguro got involved in the project. Ishiguro's Artland studio did not officially join the project until a year and half into the pre-production. Artland was recruited in no small part because Haruhiko Mikimoto had just started working there, and Kawamori wanted him as character designer. Mikimoto himself was working on the project because he was a high school and college friend of Kawamori.
And Ohnogi and Tomita. Yeah, they didn't create everything, but that's usually how it works when you are a writer. You write to the specifications and they did a fabulous job.Kawamori personally recruited Ohnogi into Macross because, like Mikimoto, they went to high school and college together. In fact, Ohnogi wasn't involved in the initial planning of Macross at all since he only joined the scriptwriting staff after it started broadcast. (He was finishing college when Macross first aired, and didn't script his first episode until episode 16.)
As noted earlier, Tomita scripted for the first Macross series, Do You Remember Love?, Macross II, Macross 7, and Macross Dynamite 7. However, he didn't work on Flash Back 2012, Macross Plus, and Macross Zero, nor was he involved in the actual initial creation of the first Macross series.
The only episode that Kawamori scripted after episode 27 was episode 36, the episode that most people did like. A full six of the other eight last episodes were scripted by…Ohnogi and Tomita.
In any case, all of pre-production story treatments and story outlines (written by Kawamori) naturally didn't include those episodes at all. By the point that those episodes were being scripted, Kawamori was mostly focusing on the movie instead. Nevertheless, as noted in the other thread, those last episodes did no better or worse in the ratings than the previous ones.
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Yeah, because Kawamori directed SDF Macross. Oh wait, no, he didn't!
He supervised it.
Proof?
Macross Perfect Memory, page 259. Macross Dictionary, page 131.
Er, well then... uh... he wrote the TV series, right? Uh, no, that would be guys Ohnogi and Tomita et cetera.He co-wrote it.
Again...Proof?
Macross Perfect Memory, page 258-259. Macross Dictionary, page 129-131.
Yes, he was creator, production supervisor, mechanical designer, storyboard artist, and episode scriptwriter. He played the most roles of any of the staffers of Macross, which makes sense since he developed the original idea.
Umm no, his "official" credits don't include "production supervisor" (the whole "wunderkind" myth doesn't happen in Japan), and he is credited (under a pseudonym) with being involved with writing the last six episodes.
Again, Macross Perfect Memory, page 259. Macross Dictionary, page 131. His crediting extends for the entire series, not just the last six episodes.
He played most of those roles because he created the core concept for the series. By the time the series aired, he was a five-year veteran of Studio Nue, and had worked on everything from Space Captain Harlock and Ultraman to Ulysses 31 and Diaclone (including co-designing the Convoy toy that became Optimus Prime in Transformers).
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The first Macross series writing team also included Hiroshi Onogi (a writer personally recruited by Kawamori), Hiroyuki Hoshiyama, and Shoji Kawamori.
Ken-ichi Matsuzaki's biggest anime success after the first Macross was Dragon Slayer.
As mentioned in the other thread, the last three new anime projects that Noboru Ishiguro directed or supervised were Totoi, Kimera, and Toukyou Jusshouden (one environmentally-themed story and two supernatural fantasies).
Sukehiro Tomita's biggest success after the first Macross was writing and supervising the scripts for Sailor Moon and Macross 7.
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He and the rest of Studio Nue were also responsible for Gundam Century, the book that established most of the "science" and background material for Gundam long before any sequel was conceived.
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I wonder how Kazutaka Miyatake would fair in creating a new Macross series on his own using mecha and character designs.
As a rule, Miyatake does not do character designs. The closest he came is creating the creatures in Macross 7, Macross Dynamite 7, and Macross Zero.
He did design at least one variable vehicle for Macross, specifically the Az-130 Panzerzorene.
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Yeah, because Kawamori directed SDF Macross. Oh wait, no, he didn't!
He supervised it.
Well, he did all the mecha designs... oh wait! No, he didn't! Miyatake did most of them, including the Macross itself.He co-designed them, including the design that was originally intended as the main mecha before a sponsor pushed to make the spaceship the title mecha.
Er, well then... uh... he wrote the TV series, right? Uh, no, that would be guys Ohnogi and Tomita et cetera.He co-wrote it, and developed the original story.
Yes, he was creator, production supervisor, mechanical designer, storyboard artist, and episode scriptwriter. He played the most roles of any of the staffers of Macross, which makes sense since he developed the original idea.
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Let's keep in mind he was "just starting out" when SDF Macross came out (I'll have to check but I believe he was still in University at the time or a recent graduate.) and it is highly doubtful any junior person, no matter how talented, would be given much credence during a production.
He just started out in 1978, but he was already working in the Studio Nue for five years by the time the first Macross series came out. The reason he was given much credence for the Macross project in particular (unlike the other Studio Nue projects at the time like Crusher Joe) was that he came up with the core concept and wrote all the pre-production story treatments and outlines.
The "wunderkind" getting the keys to the studio is mainly a North American invention, something nearly unheard of in Japan. There, they believe in mentorships and aprenticeships in most industries including animation.The reason for the difference in Studio Nue's case is that Studio Nue itself was a "wunderkind"--it has only started as a business a few years earlier. Kawamori's core idea for Macross was the first concept created entirely within the studio that had been green-lit for animated production.
There was no bowing at the feet and pearl-anticipating, but what the other directors and writers did do is base the series upon the story treatments he created from the core idea he developed.
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I have to agree with Zinjo that most people tend to think Kawamori was more involved with the original SDF Macross than we give him credit for. From all that I've read, Kawamori's greatest involvement was with the "Outside Story" (episodes 28 - 36) where he began to direct, write, and script.
Episodes 28-36 were never called "Outside Story." This is a huge misconception of English-speaking fans, based on reading the English title of a Macross Perfect Memory chapter that doesn't even cover episodes 28-36. The Outside Story chapter has Kawamori's Macross Chronology, Ken-ichi Matsuzaki's 2004 submarine story, and Kawamori's description of the story before episode 28.
Back on topic, Kawamori's greatest involvement was before the series started, when he wrote all the story treatments and outlines during pre-production.
The first 27 episodes of Macross was a Studio Nue collaboration. Several of our most beloved plot points (enemy ace falls in love a human pilot, girl ends the war by singing, said girl works in a Chinese restaurant and falls for the clueless hero, etc) were already set in stone by Studio Nue before Kawamori even had a chance to finish the VF-1.People know of these plot points from a section of Macross Perfect Memory that describes these plot points from pre-production story outlines--outlines credited to Shoji Kawamori.
With the VF-1 being such an iconic design, it's easy for us to pin the role of series creator to the VF-1's creator.It's easy to pin him the role since he is credited with the role of series creator.
- SDF Macross (eps 1 - 27, Kamamori mostly relegated to mecha designs) - Japan and USA love it.Again, Shoji Kawamori was not mostly relegated to mecha designs.
There wasn't lukewarm response in Japan for these episodes. Three of the top ten-rated Macross episodes were from episode 28-36, which meant that 25% of the episodes produced 30% of top-ten Macross episodes.
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I think ever since evangelion there is this pressure to bring in lots of religious symbolism into a genre that doesn't necessarily need it. And from then mecha shows got married to magic (floating rocks, energy barriers the protect you, pilots tapping into a "force"-like ability etc) and it was ok to focus just on this aspect of the show.
Macross 7 (and Escaflowne, if you count the first release) both predated Evangelion.
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To the extent of a story board artist.
To the extent of creator, production supervisor, storyboard artist, and episode scriptwriter, in addition to mechanical designer.
In every interview I see from him he has never claimed to have written SDF Macross or been a part of that team.Kawamori doesn't have to "claim"--he's always been credited with such.
His biggest influence was with the Valk action sequences as he has said it was easier to for him to direct those sequences than explain how best to do it to someone else.His biggest influence was creating the core idea for the series in the first place.
He was after all a "new kid" and likely didn't carry a lot of weight on the team.He didn't in Studio Nue initially, but he had been with Studio Nue for five full years by the time Macross aired. More importantly, it was his core idea that became Macross, so that is why he carried considerable weight on that particular project, while the other Studio Nue creators carried more weight on their pet projects (Crusher Joe, Dirty Pair, and many others).
That would explain a LOT when one compares what he's done on Mac Plus and Mac Zero compared to what was done in Mac 7.You might have misunderstood JBO's point--he was actually involved in slightly more roles in the first Macross than Macross 7, and consequently, more roles than on Macross Plus and Macross Zero.
Again, he doesn't have to claim to--he's already credited for it.
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The thing is that SK created the premise and the universe, but didn't write the initial show. Therefore he wasn't involved in the initial "setting of the rules" in terms of the story of SDF Macross. So he tried to "change the rules" with Mac 7.
Actually, he was involved in and literally credited with the "setting of the rules" in terms of the story of the first Macross series. One of his credits for the first Macross is è¨å®šç›£ä¿®, literally "setting supervisor."
Big West ran a poll for favorite Macross series, and Macross Plus was not at the top. It was higher than Macross II, but still the middle of the pack.
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And in the case of Macross there´s a formula or a kind of balance that has to be followed in order for a series to be pure Macross sweetness. You cannot ignore the mecha-action/drama/music triangle , nor impose some other element that is not common to the franchise.
All the Macross anime so far include variable fighters, music, and love triangles, so that hasn't changed. Where the creators and fans in Japan beg to differ (and for the creators, have stated on record) is that they want each new production to introduce new elements to make each project different.
The original creators did set some rules and maintained them--all Macross anime have transforming robots, music, and love triangles, and all Macross anime should otherwise be different from each other. To the creators and fans in Japan, Macross Plus is as different from the first Macross series as Macross 7 is, and that's the way they were intended. (The same goes for Macross Zero.)
Asuka II Carrier Battle Group
in Movies and TV Series
Posted · Edited by Egan Loo
That's because the history of Macross is itself confusing; it took a sharp right turn.
The UN Forces didn't intend for the VF-5000 to replace the VF-4. It just turned out that the VF-5000 was not only cheaper than the VF-4, but better for some branches, too. Just like in the real United States Armed Forces, there are sometimes more than one main fighter for the various branches simultaneously, and sometimes one fighter that replaces more than one earlier fighter. Another place that talks about this split in the road map is the Macross Digital Mission VF-X Flight Manual.
This split is also related to Shoji Kawamori's personal opinion of the VF-4, but that's another discussion.
Yeah, I've been waiting for Google to update its cache.
Exactly. The team in Vermillion Team (ãƒãƒ¼ãƒŸãƒªã‚ªãƒ³å°éšŠï¼‰is not the standard dictionary translation of å°éšŠ ("platoon"). The mode in Battroid mode (ãƒãƒˆãƒã‚¤ãƒ‰æ™‚ in Kawamori's VF-1 design notes) is not the dictionary translation for 時 ("time"). The classic Macross example is the U.N. in U.N. Spacy (çµ±åˆå®‡å®™è») is not the dictionary translation for çµ±åˆ ("unification"). It's best not to rely solely on a dictionary if the creators made a conscious decision not to use the standard dictionary translation.
That's defeating the purpose behind the choice that the creators made, and making Macross less unique in the process. The creators deliberately chose the term "gravity control" (é‡åŠ›åˆ¶å¾¡) over the science fiction cliche "anti-gravity" (åé‡åŠ›). Macross reflects the real world in that there is no credible concept as anti-gravity, just like there is no such thing as anti-electromagnetism. On the other hand, NASA thinks gravity control might be possible. As a rough analogy, the creators also chose the word "fold" over "warp," so we wouldn't rewrite all Macross instances of "fold" as "warp" either.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research...p/gravstat.html
Yep, that's the only place that an official print source has listed a missile count.
It's semi-recessed. It's a standard aviation term.
That's the tricky part. We're still talking about fan interpretation and extrapolation. It's been a topic of discussion for both Japanese and overseas fans for over a decade now. However, in that time, the Macross creators haven't revised that stat or confirmed fan extrapolation, even though errors in This is Animation Special: Macross Plus have been corrected in later books. Kawamori himself hasn't revised that stat, even though he has talked about the VF-4, and its semi-recessed missiles specifically, in interviews since that book came out.
That's "Main Gun/Buster Cannon." Whenever we hear the Captain say, "Fire the Main Gun," in the dialogue, this is the Japanese term used.
That's "lift." This is where the auxillary reaction engines are located for lifting the ship in fortress mode.
Try this dictionary:
http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...8AX&WC=none
Or this dictionary:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?
Or Kenkyusha's Japanese English Dictionary.
Or Sharp's 15-year-old PI-3000 PDA with Japanese handwriting recognition. (It still does the job after all these years.)
In this case, it specifically means the business district or quarters. ç¹è¯è¡— (hankagai) is used to indicate the bustling shopping or commercial areas of a town, where shops and restaurants are. A ç¹è¯è¡— doesn't have to be downtown to have this name.
I'll drop by when I can, but it's been busy as usual. As Azrael said, your first stop for input should be email. Hopefully, things will settle down, despite the inevitable end-of-the-year chaos.
Edit: Looks like Invision has trouble with Shift-JIS-encoded Japanese characters in long posts. I switched to Unicode encoding.