Capt Christopher Donovan

Is there anything you want to discuss about Robotech or do you have questions about Macross...

I still have the (as yet unspoken) question that started me on this hunt to begin with. It's neither and both a Robotech AND a Macross question, as it involves the SAME footage of the object in question, namely the SDF-1.

I had need of a good size estimate for the ship, and after perusing what material I could find online I was unsatisfied with the "official" answer being presented (1200m in length). I don't feel that it jibes with either the exterior Macross Island scenes OR the rebuilt Macross city interior scenes. Nor did I feel it jibed with certain dialogue elements, such as Fokker's statement that many parts of the ship had been closed off and "abandoned", and yet it still held 70000 people with a great deal of "wasted space" as originally presented.

I was hoping to find a good debate on the topic of SDF-1 size that might give me more insight, and a better figure than the "official" one...

You wouldn't have any factual grounds to do so... I, on the other hand, have a strong factual basis for saying that there is precious little originality in the "original 85", and can easily point out where and how elements of Sentinels were shamelessly pilfered for reuse in Shadow Chronicles. What you're interpreting as spite and bile is in fact my opinion based on a solid footing of hard evidence.

I was just going to go my own way when I saw this part and had to respond.

1) It's called "adaptation", and it's done all the time in tv/cinema. I think it took a great deal of creatvity to take 3 unrelated anime shows and craft them into ONE multi-generational epic that holds up pretty darn well, thank you very much.

2) "Shamelessly pilfered for reuse"? You do realize, that as a continuation of the Robotech story, it would by necessity make use of that which came before it. TNG built on TOS Trek and it's films. DS9 built on both TOS and TNG, and Voyager built on all of the above. We're they "shamelessly pilfering? Were they "fanwank"?

Over and done...

On what grounds are you claiming that the criticism is undeserved?

As I have said many times before, there's plenty of things objectionable about Harmony Gold's business practices and the way they treat the fans of their products. We really can't hold the fans blameless, because they're WILLINGLY supporting their abusers by continuing to buy their products. There's more than a few things to criticize about the products (including the animation), both from a quality standpoint and an artistic standpoint. Can we really hold up Robotech as being an artistically sound work when it's nothing more than a hastily-assembled, completely unoriginal product made by combining three unrelated shows using a highly unfaithful dub? Can we honestly say Shadow Chronicles is an original work when it's nothing more than a low-budget fan-wank made from set pieces pilfered from a previous, failed project?

Should a woman who's in love with her boyfriend stay with him even if he hits her, lies to her, and makes promises he can't keep?

So now it's not an STD, it's domestic violence to like Robotech?

Sereously...you need to cut down on the caffine.

I just ran this by a friend on IM, and here's what he had to say:

Perhaps this board should bear in mind that many of its [Western] fans likely came to Macross FIRST through Robotech. The girlfriend analogy is facetious, in that many Robotech fans first came to the saga without this knowledge. So, no, they are not like said girlfriend, because they are not aware of the lies told by Harmony Gold.

And likewise, by disparaging those fans, they run the risk of alienating them further from their cause, and sending otherwise potential allies running further into Harmony Gold's clutches, since at least there, they are treated with the appearance of respect and welcome

You don't win converts by telling them they suck for things they liely didnt' know

"You suck because you like the product of people who suck, whether you knew it or not!"

and he's absolutely right. How many Western viewers did Robotech BRING to anime? OR Voltron? Or Battle of the Planets? The original material you so love would be to Western audiences just another "Japanese anime thing" without the recognition "Westernized" anime brought to the table.

I pointed out to my friend that doesn't even take into consideration your OPINION that the original Robotech material is without merit, to which he replied:

Granted, I don't enjoy Robotech so much myself, but disparaging people who DO enjoy the story displays a certain lack of class and a great deal of insecurity in one's own position.

You come over to a Macross site like this one, and the difference is like night and day. Over here, there's a lot more respect for people's opinions. We joke around a lot. Intellectual debate and criticism are not just welcomed, they're heartily encouraged. If you don't agree with what someone is saying, it's usually no big deal. But the most important thing of all is that Macross fans support each other. If you're looking for information, ask and it will almost certainly be provided. If you're trying to find something, you can bet that there'll be at least a few helpful souls who'll point you in the right direction or even help you look. If you want tips on translation or help with a model kit, there's always a helpful soul around. Even if you hate one or more of the Macross shows, odds are you'll have at least one show you like in common with anyone you're disagreeing with.

As long as you hate Robotech.

Honestly, I think part of the reason there's a strong spirit of unity in the Macross fanbase is because so much of what we have is literally "by the fans, for the fans" as a matter of necessity. Our fanbase is sustained by the work of people who do what they do to share their love of Macross with other anime fans, and that's created a fan culture that puts a lot of importance on helping others. Look who the most respected members of the fan community are... it's not the people who've gained positions of authority by kissing ass like it is in the Robotech fanbase, it's the people who've done the most for their fellow fans. And you know what, that's the way it SHOULD be.

Thank you for insulting not only me, but 1000s and 1000s of other Robotech fans who don't kiss ANYONE'S ass and just want to discuss our show in the company of other anime fans...

So, while you profess to respect the opinions of others, the truth here is that you only respect the opinions of people who agree with you. I'd be disappointed, but lately this is the sort of behavior I've come to expect from Robotech fans... and that's really disappointing on several levels. Is it really that hard to accept that the people criticizing Robotech MIGHT have valid opinions too?

I have repeatedly said you have the right to your own opinion. That does not prevent me from disagreeing with it, nor from calling you on being excessively rude and condescending to someone of differing opinion.

I don't know why you're arrogant enough to assert that Robotech is somehow above criticism.

Show me where I've said that.

I also find it frankly offensive that you're coming here knowing next to nothing of the legal situation or the history of the interaction between Harmony Gold and Macross's creators and trying to tell us what we can and cannot criticize.

1) I came here in part seeking that very information, which several people have been kind enough to provide, and for which I thanked them.

2) If you can explain to me why I, the Robotech "fan on the street" should bear your scorn because HG is being a strong arm, I might reconsider. Disney is notorious for being ruthless in the business office as well, should I shun all Disney properties and projects as well?

The heart of their franchise has less artistic merit than a Korean-made knockoff like Space Gandam V... it's little more than a bootleg. Hell, their newest offering was a fan-film composed almost entirely of material scavenged from the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series.

People's Exhibit #3. I could as easily say that Macek (sp?) took three subpar anime shows and turned them into an interesting and powerful story that made the originals look like the writings of a two-year old. You would probably be upset with me if I did. Why should we Robotech fans NOT be upset when you make broadly overbearing slams like the above against us?

Since it didn't seem to sink in the first few times, let me remind you again. This is not a Robotech fansite. If you want to talk about Robotech, go to a Robotech fansite. This is MacrossWorld, it is a Macross fansite, not a Robotech fansite. This site was created to be a place to talk about Macross, and the site's owners have expressed the sentiment that they would prefer Robotech remained as far removed from the proceedings as possible. If you cannot respect that, nobody's forcing you to come here.

I came here looking for information and hopefully some interesting and informative debate on certain issues (as something of a "gear head", I have a great interest in the "tech" in the fictional universe). The existing "pure" Robotech sites I visited were frankly bereft of traffic and even MORE bereft of content. I'd hoped that, since there is a lot of overlap on that front, I might do better here.

Instead I find all mention of Robotech confined to one thread that is primarily a forum to relentlessly BASH the show, and it's producers (creatively), and it's fans. I find that sad.

I wrote:

Oh wait.

What am I saying?

Ooops!

I forgot.

Hah ha See - look.

GUess what would happen if you created an AUTHENTIC Robotech/Macross fansite?

HG would try to shut it down.

Why?

Well - go to the For sale and trade thread here? Check out all those "illegal" Yamato products being peddled. The horror!

And check out the debate that goes against the terms of use HG laid down at RT.com

So..

My question to you is this:

If you so badly want a site where both Robotech and Macross are respected - why do you write as if it were Macross fans preventing this from coming about?

The fact is that it's HG and its' dedicated followers who will not let this come about because they would not allow for co-existence on an equal level.

They're the ones who prevent what you want from happening.

I mean... imagine a website that tried to promote BOTH Toynami Robotech products AND Yamato Macross products?

And tell me - who's stopping such a website from existing? Certainly not Yamato and certainly not Yamato fans.

Heck - we have dedicated threads here for Toynami products - and people here collect Toynami products and there are no flame wars between Yamato fans and Toynami fans. In fact, there are more arguments between Bandai and Yamato fans

We all live happily ever after.

Introduce HG and Robotech fans of Memo's ilk and suddenly the conversation would look different.

On MW.com right now - this is what things look like:

Fan 1: I just got Yamato's new VF-1 -it's so cool.

Fan 2: I got it too and it broke. I hate Yamato!

Fan 3: I'm sticking with Toynami's 1/100 line because the other stuff is just too expensive.

Fan 4: BUt the Toynami stuff sucks.

Fan 5: What do you guys think about Bandai?

Fan 6: It sucks, it's not as accurate as Yamato.

Fan 7: But at least it doesn't break

etc etc

Now - if HG had anything to say about it - this is what the conversation would look like:

FAN 1: I just got Yamato's new...

MEMO: YOU BAN!!

FAN 2: What do you guys think about Bandai's new

MEMO: YOU BAN!!

Fan 3: Does anybody have a Veritech Ben Dixon for trade?

The End.

I really don't understand why the complaints about Macrossworld or the attitudes of Macross fans since Macross fandom are the ones being wronged here.

The blame clearly lies with HG - but more to the point - with the fans of Robotech who support HG.

Because ultimately - if there weren't fans who supported HG's shenaniguns - HG wouldn't be able to do what it does.

So while naturally it is not right to generalize and say "all fans" are to blame (and I'm not saying that) - I think it would be fair to say that there are some Robotech fans who are motivated by either blind devotion OR are simplfy not reflecting on the situation who are fueling HG's ability to make life miserable and make it hard for the fandoms to co-exist with one another.

Pete

None of which I deny. Yet it is the "Macross fans" that are constantly making disparaging remarks NOT about HG's business practices, but about Robotech itself, and the fans thereof (as in the post I just responded to prior to this one). Are Robotech fans supposed to STOP being fans because HG's business office is staffed by jerks and a-holes?

There's little that's "creative" about Robotech. The vaunted "original 85" is just a hack job of three different shows to meet syndication requirements and "westernize" them. Pretty much everything after the "original 85" is been pretty dismal, what little there is.

In your opinion, which many many Robotech fans obviously disagree with. Robotech was successfully aired in the US, and must have made money for those who aired it after all.

It's been my experience that Robotech fanboys cannot distinguish between farce and fact. "Robotech gives you HPV." If you read something like that and actually take it seriously, then there are much deeper problems to address than the nonsensical musings of a few internet forum posters.

If it were an isolated comment perhaps, but it is not. I need go no further than this very post I am responding to for more than adequate proof of that.

I'm not sure where the "entire" fanbase comes in. Why don't you talk to Happy Penguins et al. Rude towards the franchise? Why not? Robotech is a hack job like Turkish Star Wars, and it deserves to be treated like one.

People's Exhibit #1.

Yes because they're accomplices to the eternal shell game that is called Robotech.

People's Exhibit #2.

I'm amazed at how fanboys like to use "in your opinion" to trivialize and dismiss the points made by others. The only real opinion in his remark was pertaining to the quality of the dubbing. Robotech is a hack job and Macek is one deluded mofo.

I'm amazed at how many people treat their own opinions as undebatable fact. Both the opinion I was responding to originally, and your bald assertion as to the lack of quality in Robotech.

Thanks for once again proving the existence of fanboys who believe Robotech is perfect and beyond the critique of mere mortals. The only fans really being ridiculed are the nutjobs like Memo and others who live in their "Robotech is perfect" world.

Never claimed it was perfect. Neither is it the trash you claim it is.

You could also say that the creators of the original shows that make up Robotech were part of the problem that caused Shadow Chronicles to be done entirely under HG's control, for good legal reasons.

There are a lot of people out there who still think Robotech and Macross are the same thing despite being legally separate entities. It might be an honest mistake unless certain people are still working their magic.

Not the SAME thing, but "sisters of the same mother" as it were. Why can't one enjoy both or either as they choose without being looked upon with scorn?

Wait a tic... you've just completely invalidated one of your previous complaints. This one, to be specific:

If they set out to make a movie "by the fans, for the fans", then yes, they DID hire Robotech fanboys to work on the movie. That's exactly what "by the fans" means... that fans were involved in its creation. Make up your mind please.

My complaint was that the reference to fan involvement with production was intended to be dismissive and derrogatory and infer that said participation was a BAD thing.

I disagree. If the only reason he's come here is because someone told him this was a great place to find Robotech discussions, then he got some seriously bad advice from someone, and he's in the wrong place. This is MacrossWorld, not "RobotechWorld". Don't we get fairly regular complaints from Azrael and co. that the purpose for this site is not to be a hangout for Robotech fans who've been banned from/left Robotech.com?

How about a site where fans of BOTH (since they're built in large part on the same material) can hang out TOGETHER and exchange thoughts and perspectives in a friendly and respectful way about BOTH fandoms.

Robotech fans don't have 'cooties'...nor are they out to ruin your fandom of the original material. Furthermore, a few individuals notwithstanding, we don't bite.

And they will become more abundant the longer HG and people like Memo persist in making fools of themselves. The more RT.com is about MEMO banning people for asking questions like the ones you're asking here, and the less it is about discussion of Robotech lore and celebration of Robotech, the more inclined others will be to crack jokes and make disrespectful comments.

When Memo and HG start respecting Robotech enough to make something respectable of it - then they'll earn people's respect.

No doubt that Memo is being harsh and strident. But many of the crits I've heard go beyond HG's business practices and appear to be aimed at the creative side and the fanbase...those are two different things.

I consider that a Robotech fan would feel that Macross world is a fair place if he came across this board by accident and read the posts presented.

Why?

Because NOT ONE TIME has any moderator or member EVER suggested that ANYBODY should be banned for expressing opinions that support HG's claims or go against Macross. EVEN MEMO came here, was welcomed and laid out his opinions and nobody banned him and he and others are welcome to come back and write their opinions any time they want.

Meanwhile - go to RT.com and see if Memo and the staff there give the same courtesy to other people.

So you have no problem, for example, with comparing Robotech with the Human Papaloma Virus. That's being "fair" to the fans and creative staff because you don't like HG's business practices and the modding at RT.com...

YOU would have already been threatened by Memo with bannishment just for ASKING the kind of questions that you're asking here.

Again, I have no doubt you are correct, but that in my mind does not justify being condescending and rude towards the entire franchise and it's fanbase.

But this assumes that most Macross fans are on some religious journey to convert people to Macross or to show Robotech fans the "error" of their ways.

It assumes nothing of the sort. It assumes that generally it's better for disparate groups to try NOT to deliberately antagonize one another.

In fact, I've stated numerous times that in my opinion, the real reason why Macross fans hate HG so much is NOT Robotech. Its HG's bullying behavior towards retailers who would dare sell Macross and its' general attempts at effectively making Macross illegal in the United States and "worldwide" even.

Maybe so. It certainly wouldn't hurt. But does HG's business practices make the fans and the creative staff worthy of your scorn?

HG is not competing with the quality of its' product; it's competing by trying to use the law to bully other people and monopolize the market and it's acting like the original Macross never existed and is not relevent and asking fans to go along with them in living in this fantasy universe where Carl Macek is a genius who came up with the greatest story on earth instead of just making the modern equivalent of a bootleg video featuring three random anime, all badly dubbed.

In your opinion, which I respect your right to hold.

I personally don't see any reason why Macross fans need to have a "Robotech was good too, we can all get along" attitude -

Maybe because it's the right thing to do, and would show you in a better light than "those horrible Robotech fans" you seem so bent on trashing?

Naturally Macross fans DO respect that Robotech exists and that there will always be fans of Robotech - and if the Robotech fandom and HG were able to be equally respectful of Macross then there would be a live-and-let-live attitude and everything would be fine.

But as things stand, HG is actively trying to shut down Macross related businesses and keeps throwing words like "legal" and "illegal" around.

It is not civil to threaten other people with the law. It's like try hanging out with someone who, if they don't like what you're saying, keeps threatening to call the cops on you.

That's not respectful. Macross fans just give their opinions - no body thinks HG should be shut down or that Robotech should be censored and made illegal and Toynami needs to be raided.

But Robotech/HG people don't apply the same respectful standard to Macross.

Again, crit HG, not Robotech and it's fans.

Don't believe everything you see or hear on a featurette. Why wouldn't they be excited about a project they worked on? They could have been saying things like that for the viewers' benefit, like what they do today in various ways, when it was actually the opposite. It did take a couple of years to get done.

Why are you assuming they're lying? The question works both ways.

As to why it took years to get done, they first tried for a full series but the distributer/networks wanted too much creative control. I thought it admirable that they made the product THEY wanted to make by fans and for fans as opposed to a watered down "commercial" version any releasing party would have foisted on them.

Well...this is the only thread here for Robotech, so there really isn't any other place on the site to ask Robotech-related questions.

Personally, I think that's a shame, but it's not my board...

The battle lines were drawn a long time ago. Robotech seems to have very few "new" fans. And, really, most new Macross fans are coming in through Frontier, rather than through Robotech.

Again, a shame, because I see value in BOTH incarnations of the material.

You've got to remember that a lot of us have been through the Macross/Robotech "trying to convert" process many, many times, with many, many people.

I'm not out to convert anyone one way or the other...maybe I'm atypical in this respect.

This thread is where we go to complain, crack jokes, and (rarely) post news. Check out the other threads in the "Movies and TV" section, and you'll find most of us being positive and enthusiastic. Judge us when we're talking about Macross, not when we're talking about Robotech.

I may do just that, and see if I can get some of my questions answered "sideways"...assuming I survive the slip usage of Robotech specific terms (I couldn't tell you the Macross names of ANYTHING to save my life)...

This thread (mainly) isn't disrespectful to Robotech fans in general... though most of us are somewhat perplexed by their blind devotion to a mostly-dead franchise run by a company that routinely abuses and mistreats them.

Very few Robotech fans ever get singled out for "disrespect" here, and they're pretty much without exception the ones whose borderline-obsessive love of Robotech leads them to act like twits to such an extent that they not only publicly shame themselves, but also their fellow Robotech fans, and further blacken the already dismal reputation of Robotech. The production staff at Harmony Gold isn't much better, since most of them are the ones who are actively engaged in abusing the fanbase, and telling half-truths and spinning tall tales to exaggerate their own importance... like Carl Macek's occasional claims that Macross's creators considered Robotech a huge improvement on the original, or that Studio Nue was working for Harmony Gold "on the Robotech project" when they made Macross, or Kevin McKeever's attempts to make any kind of criticism of Robotech products out to be nothing more than the work of belligerent malcontents who have nothing better to do than complain.

The legal debate in this thread ended ages ago... now it's just a vehicle for industry commentary. We're just making observations about the current state of affairs between Macross and Robotech. It's rather like a happy couple (Macross and Macross fans) watching an abusive relationship (Robotech and Robotech fans) from a distance and wondering vaguely if they should call the cops.

First off, thank you Gubaba and others for answering my factual question.

That said, Seto, I have to challenge your assertion that the thread is not (or at least cannot be taken) as being disrespectful to Robotech and it's fandom. You only have to go to the current page (55, IIRC) and you have Robotech being compared to the Human Papaloma Virus. In one of the early posts, criticism of Tommy, et al was made that they hired "Robotech fanboys" to write Shadow Chronicles. Other examples could be cited...they aren't hard to find.

I watched the "making of" viginette on the SC dvd, and I didn't see "lies and manipulation", I saw producers, writers, a composer, et al, who loved their craft and loved their project and wanted to make it the best it could be. They were excited about the project, and it showed. And the end result I thought was a fine addition to the Robotech Saga.

It isn't my position that you have to like Robotech. If you prefer the original anime serieses, great. But consider how a Robotech fan, coming across this page by accident, would feel after reading the sorts of posts presented. I came here because I was unhappy with the bredth and depth of conversation to be had over at Robotech.com and Robotechx.com. I asked for advice on another board and was told I might try here, with the caveat that I would have to put up with a certain amount of bad attitude towards Robotech.

I would imagine if I asked a Robotech question (NOT rights related) in any other forum here, I'd not like the responses I'd get, based on what I've seen so far.

Speaking not as just a Robotech fan, but as a fan in general, I have to say that the current apparent tone and attidue don't do credit to Marcross fandom or anime fandom in general. It's like a Trek fan dissing a newbie fan because their introduction to Trek was "Enterprise" (or God forbid, JJ's movie).

A better approach I think would be: "Hey, if that's what you like, more power to you. Discuss away. But if you thought Robotech was good, have you ever seen the original Macross from Japan? I think it's even BETTER..." You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as the saying goes.

Something you should consider...but it's one man's opinion. I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself.

(Keith @ Oct 18 2009, 06:32 AM)

I say we al go down to the HG booth during the next AX, hug the HG staff, and tell them "it's ok", that they don't need to pretend anymore, and that their fanbase will understand they have absolutely notihing to give them but regurgitated toys, cell phone games, and empty promises!

Then we'll all go out for pie!!

What, we're not going to invite TOMMY out for pie?

He'd probably be worried he'd end up WEARING it.

MEMO is definitely a jerk near as I can tell, but is there any reason to be so disrespectful to the Robotch fans and/or production people at HG?

After what HG did they are persona non-grata to Big West.

And just what did they do? I can't seem to find out anyting other than "they pissed BW off"...

I haven't read all 55 pages of this, so forgive me if this has been brought up and I missed it, but a question occurs to me:

What does it profit BW, HG or WB NOT to make some sort of deal here vis a vis the rights to the Macross designs in question?

BW's already DONE all the work. They need do nothing more than sit back and collect a check. HG (and WB) would have the ability to use the designs in any future projects, getting THOSE off the ground and making THEM money.

Everyone could be making money, but instead they seem bent on arguing over who did what to whom and when...it makes no sense to me. All they need to do is cut a frakking deal and ALL sides win: BW, HG, and WB (if they stay involved) make money, and Robotech fans get more Robotech with the designs they want to see.

Everyone wins and no one loses...