Capt Christopher Donovan

Damn, HP got here before me.

So you're comparing Seto, who I've seen make nothing but articulate, well-thought out posts (that actually have a basis in reality) to the "apeface" garbage posted by Pizza or to Memo and his fascist state?

That protoculture must be some primo stuff. Can I have some?

People here have been fairly tolerant of your condescending, insulting attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with you, and they've even taken the time to answer any questions you've had, which is far better treatment than you'll find at robotech.com for trying to post factual information. Yet you still feel the need to fling insults and wild accusations at anyone who doesn't think Robotech is God's gift to mankind and obsessively defend it against any and all perceived threats.

Did you forget this is a Macross site again?

What an ingrate.

There is a middle ground between "God's gift" (which I have NEVER claimed) and "worthless trash" (claimed by Seto, you, etc). Robotech isn't perfect, but it isn't worthless either.

I'm a fan of Robotech, and I have nothing to be ashamed of. I refuse to allow myself to be segregated to the back of the fan "bus", by you, by Seto, or by anyone else. I've "attacked" NO ONE who hasn't attacked me and/or my fandom first.

Get a good look now, that site's being deleted in a few days when Yahoo! closes Geocities permanently.

Every time I see that site, I have the uncontrollable urge to vomit. It's offensive enough that the authors are pilfering stuff from Macross's main timeline for Robotech, they're freely mixing it with stuff from the Macross alternate universe continuity, Gundam, and a bunch of other shows.

If you're so thin skinned and weak stomached that THIS makes you ill, then you've obviously got bigger problems.

People have been doing that long before you. Honestly, it's kind of insulting.

http://www.geocities.com/spiffy5181/veritechindex.html

Oh yes, it's SOOO insulting that someone thinks enough of a work to include it as part of what they're doing...

I rarely get this direct, but you remind me of a three-year old: "Johnny's icky! I don't want Johnny playing with the same toys as me!"

The only difference between you (and more than a few posters here) and MEMO and Pizza is which side of the fence you're on.

Isn't this just a fairly weak justification for "I want to believe it, therefore it's true"?

No, it's a recognition that readers often find things that resonate with them in a work that aren't strictly what the author himself consciously put it. That doen't make them invalid, just not necessarily intended.

It's one of those specific terms that passed into general usage to describe a whole family of things. Kind of like how most people refer to generic tissues as Kleenex. Originally the term "Valkyrie" only applied to the VF-1 Valkyrie, VF-1R Valkyrie Kai, VF-2 Valkyrie II, and VF-2SS Valkyrie II but it sort of became the common term for a variable fighter along the way.

Both, actually. When Kawamori originally drew the concept for his Advanced Valkyrie design series, he called it the VA-X-3. When he later built on the design for his Air Cavalry Chronicles series, he called it the AF-49 (since Air Cavalry Chronicles is not strictly Macross, but just him dicking around with new design ideas).

Thanks for the info.

Is this a Robotech RPG...? No offense, but's considered bad form to take from Macross to plump out Robotech. It's not as bad as, say, taking Macross Zero clips and adding "My Time to Be a Star" over it, but still...it's frowned upon by most fans, Macross and Robotech alike.

Borrowing a bit from Macross, Battletech AND Robotech (prime storyline) plus a bit of my own invention (some new ships, new alien races, etc). Since it's purely for the enjoyment of myself/my game group and not going to be published I don't see why anyone else should care one way or the other.

No. Although other VFs have their own designations, "Valkyrie" can apply to VFs in general, especially after the introduction of the VF-1 Valkyrie.

Depends on which series we're talking about. The AF-49 was a design based on the VA-X-3. The AF-49 is for Air Cavalary Chronicles while the VA-X-3 is for Advanced Valkyrie.

http://mahq.net/mecha/macross/aircavalry/af-49.htm

http://mahq.net/mecha/macross/advvalk/va-x-3.htm

Thanks for the info...

While OT, I will say that I love the VA-3 Invader. The retro look is just awesome.

Yeah, it is! I'm planning on incorporating it into an RPG I'm trying to get going.

The VA-X3

Its in mahq.net Macross section , under Advanced Valkyrie

Hmm, you know what I think the VA-3M invader may be more in line with "B2 Spirit". It was the variable bomber in Macross VF-X2.

the other site that has this designates it the AF-49...does anyone know which is the correct designation?

Actually, I think it's really the other way around, that you're reading a lot into the story that frankly wasn't the intent of the Japanese creators or the American rewriters/editors. Yes, the futility and pointlessness of war is a recurring theme, mainly because that was a common theme in many shows of that period, but this isn't Star Trek, these are three unrelated shows smashed together with a hasty rewrite... not a single unified vision, and certainly not a platform for social commentary. It was, after all, a heavily dumbed-down version of the originals marketed to young children.

Writers sometimes incorporate far more into their work than even THEY know. It woudln't be the first time. And, after reviewing the treatment for the next part HappyPenguins was kind enough to send me, it turns out I was absolutely right about the situation with Scott/Ariel.

What cure? EoTC establishes that the whole thing is a stable time loop, sending the SDF-3 back in time and making them the root cause of all of the genocide, hatred, and oppression in the galaxy. They don't solve anything.

Only because the story is not yet done. The treatment establishes that the end result of all that pain and suffering is the beginning of man's (and Tirolians, and Zentradi, etc) ascent to the "next level of development". The genocides and holocausts are "birth pains" in the development of the collected "human" race beyond it's present state.

It's not a question of accepting things a face value, it's a matter of the intent of the show's creators, and willing suspension of disbelief. Macross's creators have repeatedly, and on no uncertain terms, established the SDF-1 Macross's length to be 1,210m. That's really not open to debate. That's what the official publications say, and what the animation shows. Yes, the city layout in the original series is slightly unfeasible, but that's what willing suspension of disbelief is for. You're a self-professed gearhead, do you have similar beefs with other sci-fi ships and technologies like this? More often than not, set design for the interior spaces of a ship clashes with the ship's exterior. Star Trek was particularly bad about it, often having large, plot-critical rooms with large windows that were clearly not present on the physical model of the ship. You just sort of have to take the creators at their word.

And Treknologists (ie, "Trek gear heads") argue that all the time. There's only really been ONE set that frakked up big time, and that was the Rec Deck from TMP.

Well, you're not dealing with conventional rocket booster technology, you're dealing with an impulse system cluster, which is essentially a mix of a nuclear pulse rocket and ion thruster. It doesn't have to be very big, and there's no denying that that nozzle cluster is BIG. Just eyeballing it, I'd say the meat of the engines is that large block of space immediately under the city part of the leg... y'know, the mess that's a good 50m or more thick down there. Plenty of space for a large engine system. Ion thrusters aren't the most hardware-intensive of propulsion systems after all.

That propulsion system still has to push some 18 million+ mt of ship...you aren't going to do that with some ion thruster. And a pulse rocket is going to HAVE to have much bigger engines.

Well, not to split hairs, but the proper term is "Variable Fighter" or "Valkyrie", not "veritech"... that's a Robotech-only term.

Not to split further hairs, but isn't Valkyrie only applicable to the original F-14 inspired fighters? The latter mecha have their own designations ("Invader", "Nightmare", etc).

There are two different models of variable fighter that bear a strong resemblance to the F-117A Nighthawk... both from the main Macross continuity. There's Macross 7's VF-17D/S Nightmare, a special forces VF (see here), and a simplified general-use version that became the main VF of the U.N. forces in the early 2050s... the VF-171 Nightmare Plus (see here). Not sure what the B-2 Spirit-looking thing could be... perhaps this, or this, or perhaps this, from Kawamori's Air Cavalry Chronicles original design series?

The ones I had were indeed the VF-17D "Nightmare" and the AF-49. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I assure you there's nothing passive-aggressive about it. This is a simple illustration of the sort of behavior that warrants individual criticism in this thread. Unfortunately, there are a fair few people who behave exactly the same way, and they are those rare Robotech fans who DO get directly criticized for their behavior here. The reason why they warrant criticism is because their... well, crazy... behavior doesn't just reflect poorly on them. These people typically profess to speak for the Robotech fanbase as a whole, and thus shame every Robotech fan with their actions. I think that definitely warrants harsh criticism. It's not a shot at Robotech fans in general. Their unusual devotion aside, most of them are decent-enough people. It's only the most exceptional troublemakers... the ones who give Robotech fans a bad name by association... who ever warrant a mention in this thread.

If we're going to get along at all in here, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree and move on. My interests at present are pretty specific in the type of information I'm looking for and once obtaining it, I'll probably be doing more "lurking" than posting. Either way, I'm through arguing.

Speaking of hate mail, I received another delightful private message from our good friend Pizza the Hutt/Wraith_Knight/Ghost Maker/we don't know what he calls himself here because he's never worked up the courage to post. It seems he took considerable umbridge over my description of his recent behavior, and took it upon himself to convey the severity of his displeasure in the same comical fashion he used to badmouth so many others on RobotechX.

For Capt Christopher Donovan's benefit, I'll remind everyone that he's been sending hostile messages like this to people for ages, usually with no provocation. Pizza's one of those aforementioned Robotech die-hards who has an inexplicable axe to grind where Macross is concerned, and feels that anyone who criticizes Harmony Gold and/or Robotech is 1.) not a real Robotech fan, and 2.) a "Macross purist troll" engaged in some grand and pointless conspiracy to ruin the fun of the "real" Robotech fans (the people who think Shadow Chronicles is perfect and Harmony Gold is staffed by people who are all more wonderful than Mary Poppins).

And now, the lulzy message itself:

There's no excuse for Pizza's behavior. That is simply uncalled for.

By the same token, you just couldn't pass up the opportunity to passive-aggressively rip on Robotech and it's fans AGAIN based on your problem with Pizza.

That's uncalled for as well...

Eh, six of one, half a dozen of the other... Scott still died and went to another place full of bright white light to be with his dead Invid girlfriend. Most people would sum that up as "Invid heaven", but whatever floats your boat.

And that is an invalid story point why?

Which is funny, because Robotech's storytelling is typically follows the model of "humanity vs the evil aliens", and the aliens invariably end up either being wiped out to the last man, or are liberated from a more evil alien race only to end up subordinate to the human forces. Since Prelude pretty much recanonized big chunks of the Sentinels comics, that really kind of brings it full circle to the McKinneyist outcome where humanity is ultimately the source of all the universe's evils. (which is lulzy for several reasons)

Only if you stop at that VERY superficial analysis of the story. Those "evil aliens" thematically represent aspects of humanity that are problematic taken to a theatrical degree. The Zentradi represent "baser" traits: naked agression, authoritarianism and blind conformity. The Robotech Masters also represent the last two traits and add, for want of a better way of putting it, the concept of intellect run amok, unchained by the "higher angels" of human nature. The Invid take a different tack, with aspects of the preceeding faults combined into a dangerously blind faith in not their own rightness (hubris, if you will).

You can say that, per McKinney, humanity is the source of all the universe's evils, but that analysis leaves out humanity's role in CURING those same evils.

You might not like his tone, but he raises a good point. The attitude that the differences between Robotech and Macross don't matter might fly with Robotech fans (who are used to excusing large discontinuities and total disconnects because of the nature of their favorite show), but it usually does not fly with Macross fans and in chats about Macross, because like as not, they are different universes. The only thing they have in common is the animation. You also have to remember that unlike Robotech, which cannot use the SDF-1 in anything except the Macross Saga and comic books, Macross has been able to bring the ship back (or others of its class) again and again... which really helps pin down things like size.

If you are content to just accept whatever you are told at face value.

Let's be honest here... the original Macross was not the highest quality production, even for its time. This is all hand-drawn animation, and so of course there are bound to be some inconsistencies... and not just in terms of goofs on the part of the animators, but also perspective. Subsequent productions have had much higher quality, which solves a lot of the problems like that.

But the fact remains that Macross's creators have never once backed down from the 1,210/1,200m numbers they came up with for the size of the SDF-1 Macross pre- and post-refit. Frankly, in terms of scale to other objects of known size, the 1,210m number used in the TV series fits just fine. Yeah, it's a little unfeasible to cram 20,000 crew and 58,000 refugees into a ship that size, but hey, this is willing suspension of disbelief here. So long as the story is compelling and the characters are deep, who gives a damn if the ship theoretically should be shown to be a lot more crowded than it is?

On the one hand you are right...I'm not going to STOP liking Robotech (and or Macross, if I ever get a chance to see it) over the issue. However, I do enjoy the intellectual exercise of trying to come to a conclusion that fits the facts I have on hand.

The canonicity of Macross: Do You Remember Love? is... complicated. I'm going to do my best to explain it, but I might get a bit wordy, so please bear with me.

Macross: Do You Remember Love? isn't a retcon, per-se... it's an alternate depiction of the events of Space War 1 which were originally shown in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. Strictly speaking, Macross's creators maintain that the "true account of Space War 1" is somewhere between the different depictions of the war. Over the years, Macross's creators have used DYRL designs and TV designs side by side, depending on which version of the particular character or mecha they happen to prefer, though in some cases both versions of a mecha are canon, such as the SDF-1 w/ and w/o ARMDs... the former being the post-2012 refit version and mass-production model, or the VF-1's different hands and cockpit being a block upgrade. DYRL also has an odd status as an in-universe movie that came out in 2031 and inspired many of the characters in later shows to pursue careers in music, though there is some indication that the in-universe version differs somewhat, including the wedding of Max and Milia, which isn't actually in DYRL.

On the other hand, the alternate universe continuity of Macross II: Lovers Again treats DYRL as the 100% accurate depiction of Space War 1, and the TV series as non-canon. Much less confusing that way.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that...that definitely muddies the water doesn't it?

If you're still with me after that, Mr. March's website, the Macross Mecha Manual, has a section devoted to DYRL which includes a page devoted to the DYRL-variant SDF-1 Macross. Among the lineart entries is one particular piece which is printed in a few artbooks, and shows the orientation of part of the city inside the engine blocks ("legs") of the Macross. You can find the DYRL SDF-1 variant here, the city section art is at the very bottom of the "line art" part of the article.

Ah yes, I'd seen that before (just didn't know that was the site that was being referenced.

I have to reject that city scheme out of hand. Where are the frakking engines if you put the city there? All you have are the thrust nozzles. It makes ZERO sense. The only really believable place is in the "torso" or "center" of the fortress (depending on mode), and for THAT to work you need a much bigger ship.

While I'm here, I have images of veritechs based on the F-117 AND the B-2, but can't find their origins...can anyone help me out there?

But.....then...why do you care about the length of the SDF-1 at all?

See - this view that it doesn't matter if it's Robotech OR Macross... really? I actually tend to think it does matter. If we're going to try to speak like tech-heads about scientific matters in a fictional universe, it would, I imagine, help to at least agree on what universe we're talking about.

I just find it contradictory to say on the one hand that you don't accept explenations like artistic license, but on the other hand you don't care whether we're talking about Robotech or Macross - two completely different shows.

I bring this up only because in the case of designs for characters, uniforms and even MECHA - Kawamori has made it pretty clear that the designs from DYRL are the generally "cannon" ones - or at least the ones he prefers.

It was DYRL that took great pains to be super accurate with the mecha - including the SDF-1.

So the most immediate thing that comes to mind when you say "who cares if it's Macross OR Robtoech is" - well..Macross fans care.

Robotech fans might have a "who cares" approach - you'd have to not really care what show it is you're watching to enjoy something that is composed of three different anime randomly put together.

Macross fans, on the other hand, DO CARE what they're watching.

And if we're going to talk about Mecha and technology and the SDF-1 in MACROSS - then really we need to be discussing DYRL because THAT is what Kawamori has used as the basis for mecha design in ALL future series and THAT is what Yamato and toy/model designers (Hasegawa) have used as the basis for their model designs.

And that is NOT Robotech.

Are we learning yet?

Pete

Setting aside your snide tone, it's not going to kill me one way or the other what I ultimately find out. Macross (the original) and Robotech use the exact same footage for their visuals, so Robotech vs Macross is irrelevant in that sense. That is the visual material I have to study, and I do not feel that it supports the "canon" 1.2k figure.

If DYRL is considered a retcon of the original Macross, I would be willing to look at it and make a judgement accordingly as to what I see. Is there a good site where I can get good, viewable screen caps of that SDF-1, interior and exterior?

Yes, but they get reunited in Invid heaven. Also: Ariel sacrifices herself trying to stop a meteor from hitting Tirol, and Janice sings to the Haydonites, causing some of them to remember emotions, and turn against their leaders.

Is THAT enough of a deal breaker for you?

Not really. "Invid heaven" could mean any number of things. Perhaps Scott is offered in his death the chance to "ascend" as the invid have ascended, uniting man and Invid and paving the way to peace between the two after the fall of the Haydonites. He and Ariel could be truly united in that way after her "sacrifice" making it the ultimate completion of the theme of unity of differences as embodied by human/alien union (Max/Myria, Dana/Zor, Scott/Marlene), a concept that goes all the way back to the first of Robotech.

Janice singing to the Haydonites to rekindle emotions mirrors Minmay doing something similar to the Zentradi. It's a "history cycle" concept that has been hinted at before in Robotech. The power of love in Robotech is represented by song, and at it's core Robotech has always been about love, and how it makes us human. It also ties sideways into the "union" theme as I discussed above.

Between RT and Macross, that's a matter of opinion, laddie.

Well then, what does make sense to you? By all means, tell us what you think the SDF-1's length should be. Amuse us. Cuz whether it's RT or Macross or any movie or TV show, camera angles and lighting can play weird tricks.

Hell, I can make Seto's ass look like the Rockies with the right lighting and camera angles.

Well, I haven't done a frame-by-frame multiple angle study or anyting, but my intitial impression after having rewatched the entire first series and considering the internal shots and the dialogue, I'm leaning towards 2 to 3 x the stated dimensions.

check your email

Could I have a copy too?

LOL I can guarantee you'd change your mind if you read the script that got leaked on the tubes

here let me sum it up for you!

more black hole nonsense, janice wants to shag marcus (maia and louie are both jealous!) there's a reclone of Zor (ZOMG WTF)and it aint Rem. marcus tells janice to go *beep* herself gets captured by da haydonites (HG staff) Ariel sacrifices herself and scott bernard dies!

There's more but that's just the icing on the cake!

I think it would depend on how it was done. None of that is a deal breaker for me, and some of it you have to admit is a ballsy move (killing TWO leads, for example).

This is getting silly. It all seems like this debate is all new to Capt. Donovan, and I suggest he check the "Southernmacrosspeada" (God I hate that name!) forum at RT.com to see the other side of the coin. Likewise, I suggest that he look beyond just this thread before judging Macross World. But he's not here to be a troll, and baiting him doesn't help matters.

Everyone put down the gunpods, and just relax...

Thank you.

No, seriously, people have been treated like crap by HG for the sake of Robotech. That includes Robotech fans.

Of that I have no doubt. That does not render Robotech itself without artistic merit on it's own basis. I would not call a person who feels Robotech lacks artistic merit a "fan" of Robotech.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Star Trek is an ORIGINAL creation. And the continuations were done with the involvement of people who worked on the original show.

Not really, other than a few at the beginning of TNG, the "modern" Treks were done by an entirely NEW staff.

Robotech isn't a sequel to Macross, it's not even really an adaptation. It takes the Macross story and animation and turns it into something...different. Of course, whether or not "different" is "better" is a matter of opinion. Most of us here agree that "different" in this case is NOT "better," or else we wouldn't be here.

True as far as it goes, but Shadow Chronicles IS a sequel to all of ROBOTECH that came before it. The complaint was that Shadow Chronicles was "unoriginal" and "pilfered" becasue it used previous elements of ROBOTECH (not Macross), a claim that is spurious on it's face. A Robotech continuation is logically going to build on elements of the prior Robotech installments, including Sentinels.

And if it looks like I'm working BACKWARDS in responding to posts, to a degree I am. I couldn't remember where I left off so I started with the "newest" page first.

I can give you two posts why.

In one thread, PTH called someone illiterate. I then commented about Pizza's numerous misspellings and bad grammar in that very post that he called someone illiterate in.

Then, in another thread, Pizza said that Carl Macek should rewrite Robotech: The Untold Story and have HG try to get the rights back to Megazone 23 to use with the rewritten story. In reply, I wrote that they should make their own animation for the Untold Story instead of using Megazone 23. I also said that HG should concentrate on finishing Shadow Rising (yeah, right) before trying to start something new.

Those are at least fair and debateable crits. I'd be very interested in seeing SR get finished, preferably by the team that did SC. I've enver understood the big deal about taking comics, esp superheroes and such "live action" when animation is the superior venue for such storytelling.

But a lot of this is legitimate criticism from years of observation by many fans on both sides.

I would hesitate to call someone who held that beleif a "fan" of the material myself...but be that as it may, many fans do NOT feel that way as well, so making common cause with just the alleged "fans" that agree with you is shady debating logic at best.

Well, OF COURSE he does...because all the stats come from Japanese sources, and thus are not "pure" Robotech.

I don't care if it's Robotech OR Macross, it's the same SDF-1, and furthermore I personally don't care if it's printed in Japanese, Swahilli, or Sanskrit. 1.2 km doesn't make sense to me, nor do I feel it matches the visuals.

It's too bad, really, 'cause he and I actually had a pleasant conversation via PM. We talked about the legal dilemma first, and he got the picture quite quickly. Then he said he wanted to read more technical stuff (and asked if the fact that all the Macross technical book remain unpublished in America was due to HG...I answered "Partially, but also I'm not sure how much a market there is for them here"). I suggested he check Macross Compendium and the Macross Chronicle translations (he disappeared before I could recommend March's site... ).

As you can see, I'm still here, and I did get your recommendation for Mr March's site, thank you for sharing it.

I suggested he check out DYRL or MacPlus, and he said he'd like to, and that was pretty much it. He never said anything about the length of SDF-1.

Different conversation entirely. Admittedly I was a bit distracted. Being accused either indirectly or directly of eithe having an STD, being the same as a domestic violence victim, or generally being a HG stooge (after I repeatedly said I was not a fan of the BUSINESS practices of HG), tends to make me a bit pissed off.

I don't take basher crap off of anti-Browncoats or Enterprise bashers, and I'm not about to take it off of elitist snobs like many of the posters here appear to be. And I'm still being a lot more polite than I really feel.

(BTW, what is the deal with the SDF-1 length? First Doug Bendo mentions it, then JT mentions it, now Capt. Donovan brings it up. I'd never even realized it was an issue before. Everything I've seen says it's 1200 meters, and the exterior animation seems to bear this out. Sure the buildings wouldn't be able to fit inside the ship, but that's just artistic license. Is THAT what this apparently burning question is about?)

No, that's the question that initially led me to this site. I come from a tradition of "tech talk" (the "treknology" school) that isn't satisfied by an official pronouncement and "artistic license". The ultimate answer is nice, but so is the debate.

Like Robotech is goodthink. Bellyfeel Robotech is doubleplusgood. Like Macross is CRIMETHINK. If self like Macross, report to thinkpol. If others like Macross, report to thinkpol. Failure to report is INFOCRIME. Like Robotech and Macross is unlogic. Unlogic is CRIMETHINK. THIS WARN YOU!

Change Robotech and Macross around and you have Seto, et al...the sword cuts both ways.

I merely implied that his continued exclusive participation in this thread would be an indicator that he is here only to defend RT as opposed to contributing to the general community.

Which is what I've been saying since the beginning... he CLAIMS he came here to talk mecha, but so far all he's shown is that he's suffering from some bizarre compulsion to try to defend Robotech from perfectly legitimate criticism.

"Legitimate criticism" and bashing statements about "hacks" and "fanboys" and complete and utter dismissal of any worth whatsoever in Robotech are different things. You need to learn the difference.

I have every right to insist on defending Robotech if you insist on your elitist bashing of it. I would not even know (or give a flying frak) about Macross ANYTHING were it not for Robotech introducing me to it, as thefriend friend I quoted pointed out.

Furthermore, I am around in the other theads, reading and learning (at least as much as I care to). Why would I open myself up as flame bait for your anti-Robotech trolling by replying in ways that (at present) would invite such a response?

You're lucky I (or any other casual fan/passer by) that isn't a part of your little "purist" clique even bother to visit, given the sh*tty reception I've been given by 99% of the respondants.