Shaka_Z

Okay, thanks to a very long and very boring meeting I've had the chance to run some numbers. These calculations are based on the following stats for the VF-1 that I found on the Macross Compendium:

reactor power: 650 MW

engine thrust: 11 500 kg x g

weight, take-off: 18 500 kg

weight, empty: 13 850 kg

Lacking any data, I assumed an exhaust temperature of 10 000 K, which is about 4 times as high as a ramjet but much much lower than the temperature inside a fursion reactor. [edit: more accurately, I assumed that the kinetic energy of the exhaust is equivalent to 10 000 K; it technically isn't the same thing]

I'll spare you the calculations, but the listed value for the thrust leads to a minimum propellant consumption rate of 7.14 kg/s. Assuming that most of the difference between take-off and empty weight comes from hydrogen propellant, this gives 2325 kg of hydrogen per engine, for a maximum flight time of 326 s, about 5 1/2 minutes, at full power, which seems about right.

All that assumes that all of the hydrogen is thrown out into space rather than used as fuel, but that isn't a problem: a 650 MW fusion reactor would only consume about half a gram of hydrogen fuel in 326 seconds. That means you can use almost all of your hydrogen as propellant.

In an atmosphere, you can use air as a propellant. Based on some quick calculations, an air intake cross-section of 0.1 meter^2 would provide enough airflow for the engines; that seems about right, too. In that case, of course, you don't need to worry about using up your onboard propellant and you can essentially fly forever.

there is a certain problem with using liquid hydrogen as a propellant in a fighter-sized vehicle (especially one that transforms) - density. in the liquid state, H2 has a density of 68.85kg/m^3... one really can't store very much of it to use as reaction mass, even in a fighter using a fusion engine - at least not and have any kind of useful endurance at max thrust. in cruise however, where the engine would be allowed to really heat things up, the potential for really high Isp levels (and correspondingly high delta-v's over extended periods) would be there. this of course assumes that overtech hasnt solved the problem of getting insane Isp and thrust levels simultaneously - these are usually 2 extremes that do not go well together.

this propellant storage issue is very likely the primary reason why valks before the YF19 and 21 were generally incapable of reaching escape velocity from an earth class planet without booster assistance. dont get me wrong... they were most likely quite capable of it - just not on a tactically useful timescale. it is quite likely that later engine versions like those on the -19 are capable of handling denser fuels without material compatibility issues. my own preferred candidate would be metallic hydrogen

I dont know... it just seems to me that alto's scene with sheryl was not motivated by pity. I cant put my finger on it, but that's my gut feeling - maybe because I see sheryl and alto as having a much deeper, though not necessarily as broad a connection as ranka/alto, whose connection is broad but not very deep.

Ive said it before... sheryl and alto - to me at least - understand each other instinctively to a very high degree, in a way ranka has only recently begun to approach (and even then in a different, much more superficial fashion)

More heat=more energy=turn more compressor fans faster. If you had a turbine material that could take it, you could give a turbine 1 million degrees to work with, and it could absolutely scream and turn 5 dozen fan stages at 20,000rpm, sucking in tons of air and ejecting them at hypersonic speeds. Or something equally ridiculous by modern standards. The limiting factor in many modern jet engine designs is the ability of the turbine to withstand the heat---we can easily design a combustion chamber that will make more heat than the turbine can take, and you get melted turbines. That's part of the reason we don't have nuclear turbines, nor really need them---we can't deal with the heat of jet fuel, much less a reactor.

I'm not even going to try to explain the YF-19's cooling issue, as I know nothing about shedding heat in space, etc.

actually, we dont have thermonuclear turbines because we haven't licked the whole net-energy gain problem yet, and even if we had, there would be no need to give such a turbine that much heat while in atmosphere, where Isp is going to be low anyway... restricting reactor output to keep engine temperatures within the same range as conventional turbines would be more than sufficient. on the other hand, in space - where the engine would be operating as a rocket - there would be no need to use the turbine section at all, so no worries about heat induced failures there.

there is certainly going to be a cooling issue when in space however... unless the reactor is *extremely* efficient at minimizing waste heat. a functional fusion reactor running an aneutronic cycle would have to be exactly that.

Hey David Hingtgen, didn't mean to imply that it was the heat that makes things go. (I can talk better than I can type) Just more along the lines that to me if a engine is labeled as a 'thermonuclear reaction engine' I automatically think that it may kick out a fair amount heat.

But I love to hear all ideas on VFs, especially on the engines and fuel.

As for the closed cycle coolant, I haven't thought of that. Always kinda figured that some propellant was mixed with the air at some point in the engine. Nice idea.

well... I for one think of a valk's fusion turbines as a refinement of the VASIMIR drive concept NASA has been investigating for the last decade or so, but capable of using a variety of propellants.

actually, wireless power transmission is nothing new - it is just the scale of the setup with regards to solar power satellites that poses the problems. tbh, while I absolutely love the idea and the ramifications it would have for space travel infrastructure, the risks of beaming all that power to earth dont sit well with me. I would prefer to beam the power to a receiver at the end of a orbital elevator cable, and then get the power down that way.

in the final analysis however, no solar collector scheme is ever going to be sufficient as a primary power source - that spot belongs to fusion, and I am so hoping the bussard polywell makes net power gain with its' next design iteration that it is not funny.

also, the VF-25 is still so new (still considered to be experimental IIRC) that the transatmospheric FAST packs might not be available yet, even to SMS. granted tat since SMS operates primarily in the vicinity of frontier, they probably have little need of those particular accessories (since valks have easy access to and from the domes via the space gates as demonstrated by brera in ep 21), and so favor the space-only packs.

given the above fact, I would actually be surprised to see any valk assigned to colony fleet duty sporting atmosphere-friendly FAST packs so long as the colony fleet was still in space, unless called for to perform a special mission within a planetary atmosphere.

About Arkan...I was not a fan really... french songs should be used for Celion dion,Halliday, Leslie, Pokora, but not for japanese anime.

No offense, for the ones who love it but really, if diamond crevasse was singed in french by sheryl, the sayonara, sayonara nando datte aka au revoir au revoir plusieurs fois in french = I turn the volume down. Many will disagree with me..or not but japanese songs fit well anime. When they mixed japanese/english this is as good. But when this is all in english like in LOGH ( yes again, but i love this show), I don't even remember the OP theme so much it was boring.

So songs like Aimo even if they don't mean really something is OK but like Arkan which looked like opera song remixed for a ED is to avoid for me (yes, I'm far from being a patriot)

hmm... maybe you should try to not look at it as being an anime, but rather as a sci-fi series that happens to be animated in the japanese style. with today's CGI techniques it is quite do-able as a live action, although it would likely be more expensive per episode than star trek.

One of Macross' biggest draws for me is that it does a pretty good job of presenting characters across a wide range of nationalities and ethnicities (granted ethnicities other than asian and caucasian are still somewhat token roles), and thus avoids much of the medium's pitfalls of japanese characters appearing as 'caucasian'. are you saying that because it is an 'anime' that all the characters should be ethnically japanese? I thought not . same should go for the musical score.

woohoo I own page 24 lol

note that I use the term ethnicity when referring to groups that are historically considered to be races - I do not, have never and will never acknowledge that the classification of race exists - and indeed it does not exist within the realm of the biological sciences.

I love that scene too, and with the music it was perfect.

But I do understand people who are not satisfied with this episode : this intense scene at the end made forgot all the fight from the beginning

I hope now to see Ranka come back which will be the most epic episode ! I don't care about her figure, but it could be interesting to see what will be people's reaction in front of another Ranka, a HOT Ranka ... Alright, dream on, but at the end of this episode they made her age of 4 years...

yeah I do expect Ranka to come back a changed woman - a la kerrigan, but not necessarily so dramatically different... ie her outside would have changed, but at heart she would still be Ranka. I think Sheryl is going to go through some more growth as well before the end, as she finally begins to realize her mayan abilities (yes I still think she is related somehow). I would love to hear her sing 'Arkan', given the snip of her rendition of 'aimo' so far. it would be quite interesting.

just think... sheryl's 'aimo' seems much more soulful compared to ranka's original version - more nuanced. if she (may'n) can do the same for Arkan... damn...

Er...ja. I mean, seeing Ranka's leaving as selfish kinda misses the point of why exactly she's leaving. She's not going on vacation, or running away from something. She's running head on towards something. She's probably the first character in the show to come to the conclusion a lot of us came to ages ago. That wasn't rushed at all, this soul searching has been going on for quite some time.

I thought the whole scene was pretty much perfect, right down to Ranka looking to be on the verge of a complete break down as she saw Alto making all the wrong decisions.

For everything people have read far too much into with Frontier, I'm shocked at the things people miss.

if the gg sub is correct in the translation, ranka said she loved alto - past tense, as if she is giving up on him for one reason or another. then again, she also said that she wanted him to go with her. oh well... chalk it up to her not getting right down to it before ai-kun showed up. she should've sounded him out about everything at a different location where they could have had the conversation without interruptions by giant sentient bugs with paper airplane fetishes. he certainly wouldnt have had quite the 'oh crap it's a vajra we missed before!! kill it before it attacks' reaction.

It probably is not so much a question of wether or not the packs can be used in fighter mode in atmosphere, but rather what impact the packs would have on the performance of the fighter mode itself - it might work, but I doubt the packs would improve fighter mode performance at all (quite the opposite in fact). I am also rather wary of trying to enter a planetary atmosphere with the packs on (this does not apply to entering the atmosphere of say Island 1) unless they are specifically designed for that capability... having them on during atmospheric entry would likely cause major hot spots on the vehicle where there should be none, and we all know what happens to entry vehicles with flawed surfaces...

Not so much Ranka-hate in my case, but the pacing was just off and I was a bit bothered by the fan service. A week ago we saw Michel go out like a hero and its followed up by a lolwhut Klan in a strapped-on Valkyrie suit Very distracting. A lot of bad things happened (the loss of Island 3 for once), but I didn't get a sense of the emotional gravity. Everything seemed to be overshadowed by Ranka's departure.

I felt that the writers could have done a better job portraying Rank's dilemma between Alto and her responsibility with the Vajra. I would've preferred a little more time on portraying Ranka's inner turmoil. The reason for her departure seemed all be-muddled by the end of the episode.

I have to agree here... her coming to the decision to leave frontier should have happened *next* episode, after a great deal of self-analysis and soul-searching. so many things that were going down behind the scenes plus the aftermath were watered down because the writer's apparently *had* to squeeze it all into one episode. personally, I would prefer to not be restricted to a set number of episodes like this - even if it meant tying up the series in a tv-movie event like the new BSG is doing.

As for me, I felt that the Vajra were cleared away much too easily. Episode 20 was filled with foreboding thanks to the swarming Vajra infestation; I expected them to be around for a while. The Ranka/Island 3/MDE tactic did make narrative sense, but it seemed like a Magic Reset Button to me.

not so much a magic reset... remember all the damage and the loss of the Island is still there. and it isnt so much that they were cleared away - they were responding to a summons by their queen. it isn't as if they really had a choice... it could have been stretched out though, by having Ranka actually realize why they are drawn to her, and the ramifications and responsibilities of that realization. it certainly would have given us a great deal more VF-Klan action

ep 20's end punched me in the gut - yes I did shed tears for michel. man tears mind you. 21 wasnt so emotionally demanding by any means. but as I said earlier, Ranka has already begun to equate vajra life with human life - that is not a good sign. conversely it could be a good sign, depending on what kind of pull she truly does have with them.

hmmm.. strange, but am I the only guy here to have shed tears at the end of Zero? I dont really understand some of the criticism leveled that way, as I thought that while it could have been done a bit better, it was still a powerful tale in its' own right. it has to be really something to get tears from me, and the list of series/movies that have forced me to tears is rather short. the list has gotten somewhat longer of late - maybe I am getting old or something.

you know something... after watching the sub and reading THAT blog, that I really have to agree with Alto's 'only good bug is a dead one' reaction. like an earlier post, I have to agree that the vajra have to prove that they are more than a space-capable fire ant colony. maybe Ranka will be pivotal in this endeavour, maybe she is just being uber-self-centered emo kiddie.

I am also somewhat surprised that this hasnt been commented on before, but after the DE bomb on island 3 was detonated and the pain from the vajra washed over her (she is literally feeling the death of every vajra as it happens when in such close proximity during the song, then a huge wave of it during the DE event), Ranka says 'I'm sorry'... Alto thinks she is apologizing to him for something, but I have come to the conclusion that she is actually apologizing to the vajra she just lead to destruction - judging by her expression after Alto responds by saying 'you did well, thank you Ranka'. she has already begun to equate vajra life to human life.

lol I just realized...

No, if only we'd gotten some REAL MichaelXKlan naked time

indeed... thats the real tragedy - that they never got a chance to do the deed

I have to agree about the klan killing spree...

I think so. Odd how they'd want to blow that one up. Are the Zentraedi that much of a risk to their plans? Isn't Island 3 the one where the Vajra hid out until episode 2 (or 3)?

that is an interesting possibility...

Also, did anyone else think that Ranka looked a lot like Minmay & Mao during certain points of this episode?

I can only surmise:

Guld has too much baggage? That all depends. I took "who had the manliest death" as who has the toughest, most testosterone, all business, all guts, all glory death.

That's Guld.

If you take manly to be some kind of mark of righteousnous, valour, redemption, moral value, etc. then that's too much extra stuff.

well... I would say that while 'the toughest, most testosterone, all business, all guts, all glory death' is certainly manly, to truly be the most manly death it has to also incorporate righteousness and/or valor. redemption can be considered as a subset of valor, but in comparison to the pure chivalry of sacrificing oneself to defend the defenseless (and klan was utterly defenseless while in the cloning tube), I would say that Guld's redemption should earn him a well deserved second place finish, as while he did sacrifice himself, isamu was far from defenseless, and myung's status was unknown to them at the time - as it turns out she was far from defenseless herself.

I dunno...the Sheryl fanatics are beginning to scare me. I'll try not to make any sudden moves around you...

lol I am no fanatic... I just happen to like women with similar qualities to sheryl, so I project myself into alto a bit. one things for sure, if I were alto, the triangle would be done by now.

but then, Ive never had much luck with the ladies (at least not in terms of mutual attractions.... hate to say it, but I would have been more like Yang Neumann, as women generally ignore me or stick me into the inescapable 'friend' box.

He'll prepare a traditional

chanoyu tea ceremony, and if there's enough time add a traditional cha-kaiseki.

hmmm... am I wrong, or would that be tantamount to a declaration of his feelings for Sheryl? I am not very familiar with the underlying motivations for performing a tea ceremony beyond the 'cultural aesthetic'

keep hope alive guys... keep hope alive. if SK kills Sheryl, I might never be able to watch macross again. well.. maybe the old stuff, but after frontier, any future installments might be dead to me if she bites it. I suppose it all depends on how he kills her, if he does.

"running to get away" being a figure of speech. as in, to "get away" from the memory, or the emotion, or whatever it is alto was feeling at that point. i do remember my episode 2, thank you very much. wow, you thought i was implying alto was a coward, and that got to you huh?

lol I take my alto/sheryl shipping very seriously my friend

LOL, hey Myung has some nice boobs too, don't hate.

too true... boobs aren't all they are cracked up to be.

I prefer women with long, well toned legs myself (I've always had a thing for climbing trees

), and a good, equal balance between boobs and butt

- sheryl, macro klan (even considering the boobage, as they are meltrandi stock, so less likely to ever yield to gravity), sara and misa fit my bill. girls like nanase really dont float my boat.

real life-wise, look to the japanese contender in the miss universe contest, Hiroko Mima on youtube, and you will see where my tastes lie ^^.

I don't know if it has something along the lines of what you are thinking. After just having looked over that move a few dozen times to me it looks like a cobra only done far faster than Alto's. Maybe that was what shocked Alto, if the 25 is top of the line and here comes something pulling a move with more Gs than any human should be able to do, I'd say WTF too. But who knows what the VF-27 has tucked in that airframe, you could be right.

remember though that it isnt just the airframe that alto is having to deal with... Brera being a cyborg is able to withstand maneuvers that Alto would consider suicidal for extended periods... put brera in a vf-25 with his 'matrix' jack and I would expect him to be able to fly it almost exactly the same way he does the 27.