Ironside

If all you need is the meshes, you can get that following the instructions on the first part of the thread. The model formats for YSFlight are text based coordinate files based on VRML, so it's pretty easy to pull that data. Again, everything will show up in jumble, but all the bits are there.

Got any screen caps of your 25/27? I'd be interested in seeing what you did there.

Yes it can be done, but it is tedious as all hell.

I'm writing this off the cuff, as I haven't bothered with this in months. If, after reading this you still want to have go, I'll try to reconstruct my method.

To make this work you have to understand a few things about how YSFlight VF-X models work. The geometry of the model itself is assigned to control points. The points were designed for gun turrets and landing gear and, for the ambitious, control surfaces. It's hard to understate the amount of effort that must have gone into re-purposing those points to act as the joints for a mecha. Given the difficult of the task, it's not surprising to find that there was a bit of cheating involved. I'll get to that in a bit.

These control points are key to understanding why the YSFlight models are such a pain to deal with. For any YSFlight model, there are several files. Some have to do with collision detection, while others are about the model's performance. Then there's the model itself, and the file that tells the program how all of the bits of geometry in the model go together, and how they move about their control points. This file is just as important for importing a model as the geometry is.

With out this file, all of the geometry will import in the center of the modeling space (at least in blender, my preferred program. And like it or not, you'll probably need blender for this. Will explain at the end.). So the object centers for every bit of the mecha are at 0,0,0. The models come in lots of pieces, so this is a real pain. Manually reassembling is right out, as not all of them are oriented correctly, and I for one, don't have infinite time. Also, there's that cheat I mentioned. We will get to that.

So here comes the first issue. The control file defaults to battroid mode. Worse, it's battroid, in flight, so the mecha is at an odd angle. In order to get the mecha in fighter mode, I hade to manual edit the control file. This file is ginourmous, but it is a text file. Once I reasoned out the format, (with help from a YSFlight community site) it boiled down to a find an replace (epic find and replace, but still).

Once that's done, the cheat becomes obvious. Rather than work out a way to rotate all of the control points to make the mecha work, the models have multiple copies of the same geometry, set in roughly the correct positions. When the legs are needed in GERWALK mode, the legs for fighter and battroid are set to altitude -9999. Finding the correct value (which is usually "0" in YFSlight data terms) to position the bits and then doing the epic find and replace, puts every one of the parts in fighter mode, all lying atop one another. And of course, there's no frame. The models have no rigging.

As fars as I've seen there's only one converter for the file format used by YSFlight, and that convert is a blender script. ( http://www.yspilots.netfirms.com/yspf/viewtopic.php?p=762&sid=d9f70f94f6baab5779925e14620d0903#p31518 ) that should lead directly to the relevant post, but if it doesn't go to the post sub-titled "Import SURF Objects to Blender". It should be the last, but on the odd chance that someone adds to the thred, it's the sixth.

No need to apologize. I wasn't trying to tear into you. I looked into your points based on the new images. With respect to the legs--the issue you mentioned that I hadn't already noted--I was able to identify the problem. They looked too tall, but it turns out they were too short. Everything from the back of the head to the tips of the nozzles was slightly short. A few minor adjustments and most of that is fixed. I took your suggestions seriously.

Sometimes, when you are doing a modeling project, you have to take whatever you can get. At the outset of this one I decided to confine myself to 1st party (anime screen shots or magazine images) or Second party (toys and models) sources until I had no other choice. So far I haven't had to use a second party source. At this point, however, I'm out of primary material that can add to my accuracy. I was just explaining why I couldn't use the FS models as sources.

I'm offering my image as a stand in for the VF-25 on these scale charts, so it is important that it be as close to correct as humanly possible. At least until some real and useful images come out. So, I welcome any suggestions for improvement. But I am a bit of pedant when I choose to be, so I see a potential flaw in a suggestion, I'll likely point it out. It's nothing personal.

SchizophrenicMC, you should probably make note of who you are addressing when you change thoughts in the middle of a post.

Thanks for the comments on my WIP. I have some counter comments.

First, it's a WIP. Work In Progress. Some issues exists because I haven't gotten to them yet. Second, while I'm sure the flight sim modelers did their best, I don't know how they arrived with what they have. I don't know who they are. I've never seen their work. So, I have to take their accuracy with a hefty amount of salt. I don't think I'm a better modeler, by any means. Nor do I believe my judgment is better. But I would be fool to take a fourth party account of a third party representation as truth. I have more images to work from, and I'll be making adjustments from there. I'll keep your points in mind.

VF-25 from my 3D WIP. It's based off of screen grabs so the profile should be close, but it isn't perfect. The front of the foot needs correction and the Canopy is a little low. The tail is canted out too far.

@ SeminNV

I know I promised you VF-25 with a delivery date of sometime last week...but I'm so close to finishing I decided to just finish the thing, instead of offering a partially completed model. All that remains is building the head and cutting the geometry for transformation. I should have something to send you before the end of the month. Hopefully sooner, but definitely by month's end.

nice, i thought the VF-4 was design to accept the regular FAST packs of the VF-1, it seems like it would block the transformation

I don't think it would block the transformation, so much as replace parts of it. The "before" picture basically removes the fighter's arms, and the FAST pack is installed in their place.

I may be wrong but that reminds me of the concepts of the VF-4 that is in the Macross 2036 game that has a VF-4 designed for it with fast packs that was designed before Kawamorii ever unveiled what the vf-4 looked like in battroid mode.

I thought the 2036 VF-4 looked different. Not to suggest you're wrong--I agree with you. The way the arm/cannon mount is removed suggests the designers didn't know how Kawamori intended the VF-4 to transform, (or hadn't decided how it would transform yet).

On the other hand, I don't see anything about this arrangement that would prevent the fighter from transforming. The only issue I see is the arms being replaced.

Have to watch the raw again, but I thought it was Mikhail, who asked for the "Long Range Pack".

I take the long range pack to mean the standard Super Pack, with the addition of the sniper rifle, i.e for long range fire, instead of the standard gun pod.

I think the ELINT gear is standard on Luca's RVF-25 and it is also fitted with normal Super Packs in the episodes we have seen so far.

Graham

It's possible that the Long Range pack is a variation of the Super Pack and not related to the sniper rifle. Mikhail's Packs include a... thing... not seen on Alto's fighter. Circled in red in the screen cap.

They could be extra fuel tanks

Also, it's looking more like the VF-25 has internal missiles. Still no actual proof, but Alto's FAST Packs have a potential exit port in the same place as the possible port I speculated about before. Again circled in red.

GORGEOUS job so far.

Now if you ever decide to do a 3D Model of the VF-22...

Thanks! I'm close to finishing the VF-25. It's such a fun model to build, I end up toying with it, instead of building it. I decided to mark the torso transformation seams and ended up reducing the poly count some. At that point it was over 3100 polygons. Nows it's down to 2976.

The VF-22 is on my list of fighters to build, but I want to get close to finishing some of the ones in WIP before adding to it.

No really new developments. Still working on the VF-25. I've done 90% of the major leg parts. Working on the shoulder assemblies now. I redid the entire nose cockpit section for reduced poly count and improved accuracy. The subsurfed version is at 34k polys, while the low poly model is ~2250.

Low Polygon

High Polygon

I don't think that Kawamori "reinventing" the Valkyrie is inherently unrealistic. I've pointed this out in here but I think he's got a more realistic idea about aircraft procurement than in most SF. Major replacement programs for aircraft seem to emerge every 10 years (from 2010 to 2040) in the Macross universe, then it seems that there isn't a major program between 2040 and 2056. That would make sense if;

#1 The UNG seems to be going through some sort of economic slowdown or stagnation (which seems to be the case)

#2 Project Supernova really pushed the boundaries of aerospace design, leaving no reason to build a new major superiority fighter for quite some time.

Thats actually something that was true for the real aircraft manufacturing industries in the 1970s, 80s and even into the 1990s. The F-15/F-16 combo stood (and still does) sit as the main fighters for the United States, when in the thirty years previous fighters were replaced every five to 10 years.

I don't think it's unrealistic either. I meant reinventing, as in tinkering with his designs. I think his tinkering makes it inherently impossible to know exactly what any VF is capable of. It's not a complaint, or a flaw. It's a bonus feature. Fans want to be surprised by cool stuff, and speculate on what might be in store. It's all for the good.

Mr. March

I agree it's very possible that VF-25 has no internal missiles. I think the reasoning that it is intentionally kept slim to allow for flexible add-on modules is well in line with Zinjo's suggestion that I called "jack of all trades" mentality. Historically, Macross armor components have the next thing to disposable. We often see pilots dumping armor and packs. It follows that the launch systems in the armor are cheaper to build than those in the Fighters themselves. The Fighter systems are meant to be maintained and last the life of the fighter (in a way. I don't mean to imply that the internal launchers built into fighter at the factor are the same launchers, component for component, 10 years later...only that they have to last a while), where as FAST pack launchers might have a life expectancy as short as one mission.

Moving the launch systems to wing pylons, and Armor packs could result in a leaner, simpler and cheaper weapon system. Designing a fighter that is really add-on centric could lead to a vastly more flexible weapon.

I still think there are missiles internal, but there are good and logical reasons for all of the VF-25's missile power to be external.

Thats just the point. It is quite possible that the production team thought that it was a good moment to have the VF-25 appear firing missiles, regardless of how many missiles it can carry. There is no point in getting too worked up about it, even "hard" SF has to struggle to be "realistic". Ultimately, in SF, there will always be some magic.

Taksraven

I know this one well, being a Star Trek fan, once long ago. The Next Generation Tech Manual provided a wealth of info, but it was all grain of salt from the get go. Because standard policy for Trek production was, "This is the technical info we use for the show. It's canon until we contradict it in the show. A we will probably contradict it because we feel the story should never be held back by the supporting material."

I doubt it's any different in Macross productions. I get the impression that half of Kawamori's fun is reinventing the Variable Fighter. And I can't hold that against him, because if I were him, I'd do the same thing. I also get the feeling that Studio Nue is detail oriented when it comes to fighter design. I think more specifications for VFs exist, but aren't released because they doesn't want to hem themselves in. Release too much info and you are bound to contradict yourself.

Graham,

I was thinking along the same lines as far as hinged doors go. I think there must be hinged doors on the leg, if only to explain were the ventral stub-stabilizer vanishes to in GERWALK and battroid modes.

Graham,

That is a pretty big missile. It might be able to fit through the possible exit port, but I'm not going to suggest it could. It is a pretty big port. The attached screen has the candidate port circled in red.

On the other hand, I accidentally caught a much better shot of the leg, and it seems there's another launch port candidate, circled in yellow. I'm iffy on that one, as it seems thin, and it looks as though it would be flush the bottom of the wing root in fighter mode.

I'm only mildly confident about the first candidate. Mostly because it seems like a regression to lose internal weapons after the VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22. Reading the minds of mecha designers is not one of my skills though.

Zinjo,

I'm inclined to agree. The VF-25 seems designed around a "jack of all trades" mentality. If it is carrying missiles of that size in the legs(a big if), I can't see it holding alot of them. With 6 wing pylons and two bolt on augment systems, ELINT capacity and Mikhail's sniper rifle, it seems like the VF-25 is trying to put the multi back in multi-role.

I could have sworn I heard that the SK designed the VF-25 to be slimmer than it's predecessors to accomodate the FAST Packs and Armor Packs. With the apparent "lack" of internally stored ordinance, would not the thrust to weight ratio be increased on a non-augmented fighter?

We've been told that the FAST Packs are primarily for speed (although I am sure they are armed with micro missiles, if one considers the tell tale ports on the top) and the Armor Packs are for superior weapons loadout.

Gilliam jestisoning of his FAST packs in ep 1 makes sense, since he didn't need them to fly around an environment that is only 15km long with a ceiling of 2 km, however utilizing an Armor Pack would be tactically wise for close combat in the same environment. Now since the classic GBP was primarily designed as ground based weapons augmentation, would not the designers keep that in mind with the new Armor pack? Thus, would they not possibly utilize light weight ceramic alloys to provide maximum protection along with minimal weight gain for atmostpheric engagements?

The most efficient way to get to a combat zone with an Armor Pack quickly is via GERWAK mode, since transformed jet air flight would be like trying to fly a "truck"! I suspect or would expect the armor pack NOT to be made out of iron, but much lighter, stronger alloys, to accomplish this end. IMHO.

At the risk of getting into another round of speculation furor, I think the VF-25 does not lack internally stored ordinance. Gilliam fires two missiles at the Varja before it kills him, and after dumping his packs. This, is of course, what I think, but I've been modeling the VF-25, and I've been combing the net and the raws for images of the legs. There appears to be a single micro-missile exit port on the outside of each leg at the knee joint.

Of course, it could be that the production team simply thought explosions would really cool at that point.

Err..........no we don't.

While I don't want to re-ignite the whole "Armored VF-25 can/can't fly in an atmosphere" arguement, I do feel I need to say say that I personally disagree with the above quoted statement. As, as far as I know and I'm open to being corrected, there is nothing officially published or nothing shown so far in the anime to back up this statement.

At the momen't about the only official hard data we have about the VF-25 are it's height, length and wingspan.

Ironside, I freely admit I am arguing semantics here, but if you had written "I think the VF-25 has performance similar to the VF-19", I wouldn't be writting this post.

For all we know, the VF-25 may be as much of an improvement performance-wise over the VF-19 as the VF-19 was over the VF-11.

Until we get some hard stats from Kawamori, anything else is just pure fan-based supposition, nothing more, nothing less and should not be presented as fact.

This is just pure conjecture on my part, but I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess that the VF-25 with have around 30%-40% higher thrust than the VF-19 and be of a similar weight, or even slightly lighter without Super or Armored Packs, thus likely having a far higher thrust to weight ratio. Again, just pure guesswork on my part. Heck for all we know it may even have some sort of gravity control system, inertial cancelling system and other fancy new tech.

Graham

I admit it's not a hard stat, but the official site carries a statement to that effect (translated second hand knowledge to be sure). While such a statement isn't sufficient to derive hard numbers it is good enough to produce a ball park figure, which is all I was after.

I think folks are getting way too hung up on accuracy. Accuracy is impossible with the information we have on every VF except the Valkyrie, and I'll go out on limb and say even then it's next to impossible. With respect Graham, I never presented anything as fact. Here's the complete quote you reference.

We know the -25 has performance similar to the VF-19. We know the -25 is about the same size as the -19 and it could be in similar weight category (I think it would pushing the boundaries of believability to argue that the 25 weighs so much more than the 25 as to make a difference). So, while we can't use real stats for VF-25 the VF-19 can act as a stand-in for the -25 and give us results close enough to the ball park to determine whether or not the VF-25 full armor could fly in Earth gravity.

Also relevant:

Using our worst case scenario YF-19 based simulation....

So our simulated YF-19 based VF-25 Heavy...

I wouldn't call "close enough to the ball park", and "worst case scenario simulation" an attempt to present clearly identified speculative data as fact. While it is true that the VF-25 is suggested to be faster (and probably is--designers do try to meet fan expectations), for the purposes of my analysis that doesn't matter. I think Mr. March's voiciferous opposition to my post has given many people the wrong idea. Let me put it this way:

If, as Mr. March would have it, we stick only to official data, my analysis proves the following:

1. The YF-19, if given an armor system like the VF-25, could not only fly, but could also carry ~7 to ~12 tons of extra weight.
2. Unless we assume A) VF-25 is atleast 229% heavier than the YF-19, B)the Armor system is about 30% heavier than the GBP-1s, AND C) the VF-25 has less powerful engines than the YF-19, the VF-25 should be able to fly at least as well as the YF-19 from the point above.

I make no claims as to the specific performance of the VF-25, beyond interpreting a statement from the official site. I never did. I thought it would be obvious that if I could demonstrate that an older, less powerful fighter--carrying extra weight--could fly in heavy armor, the there's no reason to think the anime unreasonable by showing the VF-25 doing the same. Please note, even the specific reference you object to was used only to set a lower boundary for the discussion.

The only fan speculation assumed to factual I can see in my posts is summed up as, "The VF-25 is at least as powerful as the YF-19." That is the entire basis of my analysis.

It flies. Does anything else matter?

(Yes, I like stats as much as the next stats fiend. Nevertheless, the bottom line is that we saw it fly in the anime.)

You know guys... perhaps we can just say the VF-25 Armored can fly in gravity, because after all this we know it surely can... and just leave it at that. Lets stop this battle, it is getting old. You can always agree to disagree. In the end this debate serves nothing since we do know the armored VF-25 can fly in gravity, whether by the science of you two or the fact that it did it in the show anyway. I'm just trying to resolve this issue as peacefully as possible.

Edit: Well Sketchley seems to have beat me to it, we basically said the same thing.

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. It seems we agreed from the beginning. I never said it couldn't fly. I set out to prove that it is reasonable to think it could. Any impression that we are having a real disagreement about the fighter's ability to fly was solely created by March. I don't begrudge anyone the impression that I might have been saying it could not fly. My posts are long and detailed (like this one), and causal readers had no reason to slog through them. Mr. March, however doesn't have that excuse. He choose to vigorously attack them several times. He should have double checked them by now.

It flies. We've both independently proven that it should fly with a high degree of mobility. As Sketchley points out, nothing else matters. I have some ideas as to why he thinks there is something worth attacking in my posts, but there's no point in discussing them here. If any of my ideas are correct I'll just have to ignore March's posts, which would be a pity, because he's a smart fellow and of strong opinion. I love a good debate. I'm not much for getting mean about it, however.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was about to erupt in flaming attacks. It's not my bag. But enough of this navel gazing. If I haven't made myself clear now, nothing I do ever will. As corny and fake as this will sound, I sincerely apologize for wasting so much forum space on this subject.

True, the SMS are using a derivative of what was used in VF-X2.

I kinda see the connection, but uggh. That VF-X2 suit is ugly. Way too steampunk. It's more like a real space suit, with locking collars at the bicep and ankle, but that doesn't strike me as a good thing. As for the VF-25 suit...I don't dislike it anymore. I did to start. I'm a fan of Plus suit, but the -25 helmet is growing on me.

The VF-171 pilots are using a vintage of the classic flight suit.

It is the VF-25. More study of ep.2 has shown me where the shoulders go in fighter mode, and I've found an awful picture of the leg in side view. With these tools I should be able to kludge the rest of the model together. With luck it will be below 4000 polys at that point and I will send it to you. It won't be transformable at that point, but you can play with it, especially if I suffer some setback. The biggest issue I foresee is modeling the head(s), but with a little luck I'll get this thing knocked out in the next 2 weeks.

Regarding...official figures: Continuity works via unification of the known facts. Hence, empty weight figures work just fine as a basis for comparison. The VF-11 weighs less the the YF-21; we know this because of empty weight figures and that's the only OFFICIAL basis for comparison we have. So I use the figures in the only way they can be used. You might as well have said 15 tons or 100 tons for all the unofficial irrelevance your 20 ton figure has. What you've done is pull numbers out of nowhere and in turn damned my use of official figures as a basis for straight comparison. I can't imagine any way in which you could be more in error.

But I'm not in error. I'm just not providing actual numbers. Which I don't have to provide to prove my point. You insist that my using higher masses to prove the Heavy could fly is in error, but my numbers prove it could fly with 3.7 gs og acceleration. And your argument is that I should use lower numbers, which only serve to make it fly faster. Which number should be used is irrelevant to the discussion. I took and official number, VF-1 Standard TO mass 18.5 tons, and then made it bigger. Let us not forget that you said:

snip I would imagine the VF-25 Full Armor weighs less than previous era Armored Valkyries to accomplish this kind of operation.

snip

The numbers I used, by your own argument are too high, yet it still flies with a Thrust to weight ratio 3 times that of the F-15. I proved that the VF-25 could weight substantially more than the original Heavy armor system and still fly well. Arguing that my math fails to prove anything, when anyone seeking to prove me wrong would have demonstrate that 45 tons IS NOT HEAVY ENOUGH is the error.

I did not "damn" your methods, I simply said they were the opposite of my own. But I will damn them now, but only to illustrate a point. You added weight to your VF-19S. You had no more justification for doing so than I did. There are no figures to prove your additional weight figure, just some off the cuff estimates you made by comparing the VF-1 and the VF-19 empty weights. But you see, I did the same. I compared empty mass, assumed mass shrinkage on the weapons, and then added mass back in to account for the VF-19's larger weapons load, then ball parked on the extra fuel needed to power engines that are some 3.4 times more powerful than the VF-1s. After all of that I concluded that the VF-19's TO mass was probably around 18 tons. I added 2 tons just to be conservative. So my numbers were based on official data as well and have as much fudge factor as yours do. So I damn your methods using your rules. Using my rules, I simply question your methods, as I prefer a more conservative approach. That way, if I am wrong, the right answer still proves my point.

Regarding...Fan Speculation: Beyond official figures, my speculations are as valid as your speculations. Use 20 tons if you like to speculate. Personally, I argue for the VF-1 benchmark of 5.25 tons or ratio. Regardless, in the realm of fan speculation, our only option is to agree to disagree on what each of us has used to obtain our own figures. In the end, who cares? No one can prove an argument of fan speculation just as one can't win an argument of opinion.

The beauty of this, in my opinion is that we aren't arguing over anything. Certainly I made a detailed case against you, but it was a case based on a misconception. We already agree to some extent. Your off the cuff remark that VF-25 would need to be lighter to perform as it did was obviously just that, off the cuff. Your own calculations prove that. Even if you assume the mass has not decreased and use the GBP-1S loaded mass of ~37 tons, you still get a thrust to weight ratio of 4.256 to 1. Your own estimates for the Heavy show it to be highly mobile. As do mine.

Regarding...the supposed misconception: I was as baffled by ChronoReverse's statements as apparently he was by mine. Nonetheless, a direct quote has proven I stated the VF-25 can fly, complete with a quote and link. ChronoReverse honestly made a mishap understanding my posts as did I understanding his. That matter has now been resolved. If my proven correct opinion on the matter is ignored by other members, I don't have to state where the obvious fault lies.

ChronoReverse

Things are good on my end.

The misconception wasn't supposed. It happened. CR misunderstood you, I misunderstood you, and you misunderstood him, and seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm past proving that VF-25 Heavy can fly. I'm defending my methods. My methods are provably valid, and you continue to say they are not. You seem to believe, for reasons unclear to me, that I'm attacking your conclusions. At most, I'm guilty of suggesting that your posts were written in a manner that encouraged misunderstanding. Your conclusions match mine, and I have no reason to attack them. In your zeal to prove me wrong you choose to attack my methods and I have defended them. This is not a matter of opinion. Certainly I have opined that empty mass is not the best starting point, but I did not suggest that your method gave the wrong answer. You, however, have blatantly said that I am wrong. Either I am wrong or I am right. Clearly the Heavy can fly, it's in the anime. My method proves that even if you stack the deck against the heavy, it can still fly and fly well.

EDIT: With apologies to the Moderator. I did not know you had posted. This post edited to remove discussion of rudeness.

Ironside

Okay, first and foremost (and this is by no means directly only at Ironside but to everyone who's said the following in the last two pages of this thread), let's lose the whole "I don't post here often" garbage. Your posts will be given as much or as little consideration as the content of the posts warrants and no more or less than any other member here, newbie and veteran alike. This thread already has enough pretentious drama.

Let's lose the rudeness, too. After all, I said "I don't post here often, but..." Which roughtly translates as, "I'm a n00b, but I'm gonna wade into this anyway.

Onto the subject of Valkyrie mass, after the VF-1, all we have for official numbers are empty weights. So anyone arbitrarily assigning a standard take-off mass is only asking for their theory to be discredited outright. We simply don't know, so we use what is known, which I why I use empty weight.

Weak argument. My intent was to prove the VF-25 Heavy not only COULD fly, but should. As you have pointed out, my basic numbers were high. If I were trying to skew the argument in my favor, I would have gone for a TO mass less than 20 tons, much less. So discrediting my TO mass figures is pointless unless you do so by proving the actual TO mass is MORE that 20 tons and the loaded Armor mass is more than 25 tons.

Now, were we to extrapolate simply for the sake of argument, the only meaningful benchmark would be the statistics of the VF-1. I actually have done weight calculations for the Macross Valkyries, both empty AND estimated take-off mass. These are to be part of a special thrust-to-weight ratio section for the Macross Mecha Manual. If we were to use the VF-1 Valkyrie as our only benchmark, the VF-1 has an extra 5.25 tons beyond it's 13.25 tons empty mass for munitions and fuel in the standard take-off configuration. If we want to extrapolate and get into number crunching, you either add 5.25 tons to the later variable fighters or you use 40% of the empty Valkyrie mass. That's as close to semi-official fan extrapolation as we can get.

Of course, we know that this theory is already erroneous. The Valkyries also become lighter over time, not heavier and their munitions become smaller (55mm to 30 mm). So the VF-11 standard take-off weight would actually be far less than an additional 5.25 tons. Regardless, for argument's sake we'll add an extra 5.25 tons to the YF-21 (ignoring the fact that the YF-21 was not fully armed at the time; it was animated without gun pods during the sequence from Macross Plus). This has the YF-21 sitting at 14.8 tons; like I said, a far cry from an extra 37.1 tons of weight.

I've done the same math. It's pointless because we can't ever know the fuel fraction. You can go all of the guesstimating you like with everything else, but the only VF you can guess at the fuel fraction of is the VF-1. And that's only a guess, based on the assumption that the FAST Packs use the same fuel as the reaction engine.

We can, however, safely guess that the fuel fraction is higher in modern fighters. Light weight structure is an invitation to engineers to add more weapons, more fuel. Modern VF engines are vastly more powerful. To carry less fuel assumes more powerful fuel, or vastly greater fuel efficiency. Having run those numbers, I can promise that you need both more powerful fuel and more efficient engines just to keep the fuel factor the same, or the VF has a lower top speed in space (Yes, they have a top speed in space; the point when they run out fuel and can no longer accelerate). The VF-1 has a max delta v of 7km/s.

As for the VF-25 issue, the official literature translated so far says it's comparable to the VF-19 in performance. If we assume the VF-19S was the most advanced the VF-19 ever became, we get results such as:

VF-19S Excalibur (empty)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 18.32

VF-19S Excalibur estimated standard take-off mass (with 5.25 extra tons of weight)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 11.38

If we were to add the total extra weight of a standard take-off mass VF-1J Armored system to the VF-25 (using VF-19 statistics), we'd have an additional 18.6 tons to account for. So, if we assume 1 gravity and ignored the Full Armor additional thrusters we get

VF-25S as VF-19S statistics (with 18.6 extra tons of VF-1J Armored System weight)

Thrust to Weight Ratio = 4.86

More than enough to fly. All other considerations being equal, the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK would be more nimble in the atmosphere under gravity than the old VF-1 unarmored. Which brings us right back to what I said previously.

All this is is the exact opposite of my method. I used the highest reasonable numbers and you used the lowest numbers. Same conclusion. What I was trying to establish, based on the fact that your statements on the subject indicated disbelief in the VF-25 Heavy's ability to fly (CronoReverse got the same impression, so it's not just me), was not only that the VF-25 heavy should fly, EVERY heavy Armor system should fly, and VF-25 should actually be damned good at it. Which I believe I did prove.

Edit: Forget the 7 kps thing. That's looking more and more like a Robowreck factoid. Completely useless, especially given the fact that VF-1 Super maxes out at 5.528 kps, a respectable 19903 kph.

Still alive and still working. I got a bug up my butt after watching Frontier ep.2, so I started working on yet another project. (At this rate I'll never finish anything...but I'll enjoy not doing it, I think).

It currently comes in at 27200 polys, but it has no arms legs and hasn't been cut for transformation. Definitely early yet, but I started this one with SimenNV's game project in mind. It relies less on subsurf for its shape and looks passable unsurfaced. Without surfacing it comes in at a slim 1746 polygons. The goal is to keep the final unsurfaced model under 6000 polys, so I can used the decimate tool sparingly.

Good post. Though, I think you're reading the compendium stats wrong:

The Y/VF-19 engines are only 40 to 60% as powerful in space, as they are in atmosphere (100% in atmosphere, 40 to 60% in space.) This has to do with the cooling, from the engines not having an atmosphere running through them at stupifying speeds to cool them.

Nevertheless, your math stands as proof that in a vacuum, but 1.0G environment, the VF-25 Full Armour can fly.

When I first read the compendium data, almost 13 years ago...man I'm getting old...I made the same mistake. Something about the phrasing makes it seem like the engines should be more powerful in atmosphere because of the cooling problem.

Two 42700 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in atmosphere; 67500 [64700] kg [x g] class in space) Shinnakasu Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2500E thermonuclear turbine engines replacing two 56500 kg [x g] class (maximum instantaneous thrust in space) Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2200B engines in beginning specifications. In atmosphere, the engines use air as coolant/propellant, but due to problems of cooling efficiency (caused by exceeding output and melting the core) the maximum thrust is limited to 40% to 60% of thrust in space.

Emphasis mine.

Since the the implication here is that reaction engine propellant is also a coolant one can only assume that the passage above is trying to tell us that the propellant used by VFs is a better thermal transfer medium than the typical mixture of atmospheric gases. Which begs the question; Why don't they just use space propellant in atmosphere, and I have no answer to that. I'm sure serveral thousand answers could be suggested, but I don't have one.

However, It does add one point to the discussion, that being the VF-25 Heavy armor appears to cover the fighter's intakes. This may prevent the use of atmosphere as propellant, forcing the heavy to rely on internal fuel...actually improving its thrust output, to 169.5 tons giving it an insane 3.725 to 1 thrust to mass ratio.

This thing is beginning to scare me.

EDIT: spelling

Even at 75% gravity, that still leaves the vast majority of the mass to deal with. If the Full Armor is an extra 20-30 tons, that's still 15-23 extra tons of weight. It's very doubtful the 1/4 less gravity would allow the VF-25 to go from no flight to unhindered flight. Granted, it's possible, but IMO, the VF-25 Full Armor system would have to be much lighter or the capabilities of the VF-25 engines that much more powerful in order to fly around under any significant gravity.

ChronoReverse

Your post initially sounded as if you believed the VF-25 Full Armor was not capable of atmospheric flight because it seemed to labour just hovering. Which is why I posted my reminder. Nonetheless, the VF-11 hovering while carrying the YF-21 is a simple matter compared to an Armored Valkyrie. The VF-11 is 9 tons and the YF-21 weighs 9.55 tons; the VF-1J Armored Valkyrie weighs 37.1 tons at standard operational mass (sadly, the only Full Armor statistics for weight that are available). Nonetheless, quite a large difference so I don't think the VF-11/YF-21 comparison applies. Of course, all would be revealed if we had some VF-25 stats to compare. Damn Kawamori

wolfx

It's only logical that although the VF-25 Full Armor can fly under gravity in GERWALK mode, it's won't be as nimble as the unarmored mode. However, it's clear from episode 2 that the VF-25 Full Armor GERWALK is quite maneuverable in gravity and did not require Ozuma to fly with any special attention. We don't yet know what the limit of the Full Armor flight capabilities.

SNIP

Okay, I rarely feel the need to post, but I gotta put this to rest.

First, the VF-11 and YF-21 masses are mass EMPTY. The fighters are likely heavier than that loaded, much like the VF-1's 13.25 ton mass empty compares to its 18.5 ton Standard TO (Take Off) mass (assumed to be pilot, life support, 12 missiles, GU-11 w 200 rounds and fuel). It's difficult to say for certain what the -11, -21 or any other VF should weigh loaded, but I would expect their standard TO mass to be in the range of 20 tons. (The tons, btw, are metric...this becomes important in a few paragraphs.)

The GBP-1S Full armor system (VF-1) weighs in at a svelte 16.2 tons. The VF-25 system is larger, more heavily armed and more complex, but it is made with "modern" materials. Since we know modern materials have reduced the weight of VF's we can assume it has done the same for strap-on armor, meaning estimating the VF-25's armor pack at 30 tons is really over doing it. However, I'm not trying to nit-pick, I'm trying to make a point. In the interest of that I'm going to split the difference between my guess at the -25 full armor weight and your worst case scenario guess. I say 18 to 20 tons and you say 20 to 30 so we'll call it 19 to 25 tons.

We know the -25 has performance similar to the VF-19. We know the -25 is about the same size as the -19 and it could be in similar weight category (I think it would pushing the boundaries of believability to argue that the 25 weighs so much more than the 25 as to make a difference). So, while we can't use real stats for VF-25 the VF-19 can act as a stand-in for the -25 and give us results close enough to the ball park to determine whether or not the VF-25 full armor could fly in Earth gravity.

First, lets assume a flat 20 ton TO mass, for ease of calculation. Now let's assume a 25 ton Armor mass. So the simulated VF-25 Full Armor masses 45 tons fully loaded.

Now, to give maximum advantage to anyone who thinks the Full Armor couldn't fly, I'm going to use the lowest applicable propulsion value, YF-19 original specifications, thrust limited by atmospheric flight (40 to 60% of thrust in space):

56500kg maximum in space, at 40% = 22600kg of thrust... x2 Because there are 2 engines. Kg are, of course kilograms which are metric. We're dealing in metric tons, so how many kgs to the metric ton? 1000, of course. (No, I don't think anyone is stupid, I'm making sure all of the information to justify my conclusion is in one post). So divide thrust in kg by 1000 and you get thrust in tons, in this case 22.6 tons x2 or 45.2 tons of thrust.

If I (massing about 105 kgs) want to hover I need overcome the acceleration of gravity. Newton tells us I need a force acting on me pushing against gravity with a power equal to my mass. So to hover I need 105 kgs of thrust. So for our 45 ton Armored VF to hover it needs 45 ton, and it has 45.2.

It can not only hover, but it can climb straight up at a underwhelming rate of 4.355 centimeters per second squared!

Hardly impressive, I know, but I DID give almost every advantage to doubt, and I still got it to hover.

Of course, a "realistic" (for anime values of realistic) mass is a little closer to the 37 ton of GBP-1S. Also, let's perform a strict reading of the VF-25's performance information, indicating that its performance is comparable to the VF-19 not the YF-19. The VF-19F pulls a stupefying 145tons (72.5 tons x2) in space. at a mere 40% (remember, 60% is also a valid number here) that's 58 tons of thrust in atmosphere. That give is an acceleration of 5.157 meters per second or about 18.56 kilometers per hour per second. In American terms that's zero to 60 in about 5.38 seconds. Still nothing to write home about, but definitive proof that the simulated VF-25 can not only hover, but accelerate at least as fast as an economy sports car.

But we've left something out here. The Armor system has engines too. Somewhere on these forums is translation stating that VF-25 Heavy is as fast as the VF-25 but not as fast as the VF-25 Super. This seems born out by the translation I have of Frontier ep.1 where Ozama is unable to catch up with the Varja but Gilliam is. Also, Ozama's use of Super parts in the launch sequence at the end of ep.2 suggests that he would rather be fast enough to catch the Varja than heavily armored.

If the VF-25 Heavy is as fast as the VF-25, then that means its extra engines provide thrust equal to the weight of the armor times the thrust to weight ratio of the unarmored fighter.

Using our worst case scenario YF-19 based simulation we take a 20 fighter that has 45.2 tons of thrust in atmosphere, thrust to weight ratio is 2.26. We estimate the Armor system at 25 tons, so 25 tons times 2.26 is 56.5 tons. So our simulated YF-19 based VF-25 Heavy has 45.2 + 56.5 tons of thrust total for an impressive 101.7 tons of thrust. It accelerates at 1.26 g straight up. This thing can not only fly, it can out fly the F-15. It can do a vulcan climb from standing start.

And keep this in mind. ALL of my acceleration figures were for going straight up in Earth gravity. Any other direction than up and you have to add some fraction of 1g or 9.81 meter per second squared. Of course the VF-25 heavy seems to have the aerodynamics of pregnant tank, so it's unlikely that it gets much lift. However, by the numbers, the Heavy Armor should fly, lift or no. Hell, if the GBP-1S boosters have anything near the thrust of the VF-1 Super booster it can fly, too. Which is why Roy Focker's flying VF-0 Heavy isn't so far fetched.

That looks like the Mave from Yukikaze.

Do you need any artistic skills like drawing with paper and pencil to do these 3d models?

It is based on the Mave. The first time I saw the FRX-00 I thought it should be a VF. *shrugs

Drawing skills aren't really required. Just a steady hand and a lot of patience. Also a willingness to try, try again. From time to time you'll find you've put 12 hours into a model and it looks like crap. I'd wager that that kind of talent helps, but I don't know because I can't draw.

SNIP

That may go on the to-do list, if there's enough interest. SNIP

I'm interested. I'd prefer the suit be generic. I don't think there's a need for a special version for females, but that's just me.