tepidarium
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Posts posted by tepidarium
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Some dedicated cel collectors check as many sources as possible. In my experience, casual collectors encounter the most challenges staying in the cel collecting hobby because searching for cels isn't part of their lifestyle. Casually researching cels typically does not yield good results. It is all a matter of priorities.
I track approximately a dozen older series and characters. Speaking specifically about GITS and DP there are dedicated collectors worldwide, but you may not know them personally. There does not need to be dozens of collectors, just a few serious ones to keep older and more obscure series 'alive'. I personally know at least five collectors for GITS and DP, but you will never see them at cons or posting in threads like these. Some older series still have dedicated collectors such as: GUNNM, Berserk, Outlanders, Urusei Yatura, GunBuster, Voltes V, Iczer-1, Iria, Dangaioh, Tenchi Muyo, Escaflowne, Arslan, City Hunter, Kimagure Orange Road, Guyver, Nadia, Kenshin, Gunsmith Cats, Gundam 0080, 0083, Orguss 02, Video Girl Ai, Lodoss Wars, Daicon III & IV, and Mermaid's Forest, et al. Most of these are well over 20 years old however, there are still international collectors who will pay a premium. Premium 'A grade' cels and original artwork from those series infrequently surface and when they do the dedicated collectors tend to appear. Lastly, in my experience, if you have not noticed the buying trends fluctuate, odds are you might not be tracking the cel market, and/or collecting cels very long.
This is a great post. Dedicated cel collecting becomes a "lifestyle." That can mean checking the handful of merchants out there, the auction sites, and friends/associates on a regular basis. Even with that, a "buy it now" ebay auction can come up out of no where like a great white shark and you'll miss it in the blink of an eye. Same thing goes if you're hesitant to pull the trigger on an auction. What an unforgiving hobby!
While the anime cel market itself is not what it was 20 years ago, I agree that the dedicated collectors are always out there for the prime "Grade A" cels.
What's that Misa? Do I have a problem with my arm? No. Why?
Great images of Claudia and Misa!
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I don't recall seeing that cel on YJ or Mandarake. It might be from their source. That's my thinking regarding a lot of their stuck cels. That these are from either collectors sitting on cels or their own old stock that they are now selling. I think the modern collector would have separated it from the pencil sketch long ago and either framed it or put it in a cel bag. So many of these stuck cels might just be coming up.
But I don't think that cel is worth $1500 stuck without matching background. I probably wouldn't pay more than $500. I need to see the scene again but I believe there are shots with Minmay's face more in frame too.
I think I recall seeing this cel being sold as a pair with another DYRL cel on YJ nearly half a year ago?
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Sold!
Anyone going for this one?
Wow. I don't remember how much it sold for on YJ. I think this seller took a loss. But, the bigger takeaway is that an ebayer was willing to pay $125 for an acknowledged "fan" cel. That's scary when considering the possibility of other unacknowledged fakes out there potentially entering circulation :/
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It might be worth the sellers time to add a 'make a best offer' feature to some of the listings. By doing so, it will help reveal the price ranges buyers are actually willing to pay.
If I understand "best offers" are not revealed to third parties, so it would be anyone's guess as to the agreed upon price. A strict "buy it now" transaction or traditional open auction would reveal the price ranges. I think the $400 he's asking for the Misa "fan" cel is ridiculous.
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It is a nice to educate the seller, but I do not feel it is the responsibility of buyers to do so. The onus squarely falls on the seller to accurately represent and describe their merchandise. This situation is no different than in the purchase of real property. Sellers are required to disclose all material and relevant facts that may influence a buyer's decision to purchase. Failure to disclose or misrepresenting the property condition, history, features, et al, is the sellers responsibility. Additionally, buyers do not need to inform a seller of anything discovered when they conduct their own inspection. Now buyers can choose to do so and use that information to help negotiate a more favorable offer, but again, the buyer is not responsible for educating the seller. For potential cel buyers, yes they need to know whether the merchandise they are buying is legitimate and adding 'fan cel' to the auction title can help. I still feel this seller was motivated by greed and acted out of ignorance; I find no reason to trust a seller who acts in such a manner. I will be extremely surprised if anyone buys these overpriced fakes, only time will tell.
I do agree with you on all points. In this case, an astute member of the Macross cel community (are there maybe 30 of us?
) was proactive and informed the seller of the listing issues. Should this have had to happen? No. The seller should have been informed and acted without third party intervention. You may very well be correct about the seller's motivations. If it were true it would be a shame. -
It is definitely highly suspicious this ebay seller 'production_archives' uses the same font type and size as 'urbantreasurehunterjapan'. Even if 'production_archives' isn't one and the same user and if he is not lying, he is still grossly ignorant about high end cels (specifically Macross cels). It is clear he failed to conduct his own investigation on the fake YJA cel supplier/seller 'h230525', as well as the products he bought. Ebay user 'production_archives' is price gouging buyers; that's mainly why I feel contacting 'production_archives' and correcting his ignorance and mistakes does not help the buyers. Doing so does not help warn future buyers and certainly won't make the seller re-think his pump and dump modus operandi.
No question that he is gouging buyers whether it is "urbantreasurehunter" or someone modeling his style. However, the seller has now marked the cels in the description as fan cels...Now, I do think that the seller should go a step further and put the term "fan cels" in the auction title.
Once the buyer knows it's a fan cel, can we fault the seller if they manage to realize a high price for a known commodity? Well...possibly if the fan cels can be made for $35.
Still, I think the most important thing is transparency to the buyer/public in regards to the origin and attributes of the product.
It is definitely highly suspicious this ebay seller 'production_archives' uses the same font type and size as 'urbantreasurehunterjapan'. Even if 'production_archives' isn't one and the same user and if he is not lying, he is still grossly ignorant about high end cels (specifically Macross cels). It is clear he failed to conduct his own investigation on the fake YJA cel supplier/seller 'h230525', as well as the products he bought. Ebay user 'production_archives' is price gouging buyers; that's mainly why I feel contacting 'production_archives' and correcting his ignorance and mistakes does not help the buyers. Doing so does not help warn future buyers and certainly won't make the seller re-think his pump and dump modus operandi.
No question that he is gouging buyers whether it is "urbantreasurehunter" or someone modeling his style. However, the seller has now marked the cels in the description as fan cels...Now, I do think that the seller should go a step further and put the term "fan cels" in the auction title.
Once the buyer knows it's a fan cel, can we fault the seller if they manage to realize a high price for a known commodity? Well...possibly if the fan cels can be made for $35.
Still, I think the most important thing is transparency to the buyer/public in regards to the origin and attributes of the product.
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Lol, that was me. I have been having a conversation with him most of the afternoon. He has been very open minded and agreeable with the opinion that these are fan cels and was only concerned with getting it right. That is why he changed the listings. I didn't put any pressure on him to do so, just stated the case for the cel's true identity. He agreed. Seemed like a stand up guy. He also mentioned he was not the one to get them off YJ and seemingly will loose money at the prices they are now listed for on ebay. He felt a little down on himself for making the mistake, but as I said, seemed to be a stand up guy about it.
Good job! The cels are now described as possible "fan cels" in the description of the items. It is a shame that the seller was duped into spending good money on fakes.
JV: I'm not familiar with the game, but since these "cels" display crisp color and lines, I am pessimistic that they are from this product.
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The only other possibility would be that these are studio promo cels....I think I have ever only seen one....and it did not have any frame sequence info on it either....but still....it would not be an original cel used in the actual filming of the show....I guess at that point the pricing would be totally subjective....completely based on how badly the bidder(s) wanted to own it.....
Highest seller so far....
Amazed at the prices that today's cels realized.
Regarding the possibility of these items being studio promo cels I think the point undercutting this argument is made by Fortress Maximus: the cels show no effects of their presumed age. I imagine that the studio promo cels, if they existed, would be from the same time. And should show some effects of aging.
When I looked at those cels, I was reminded about process of antiquing, which has been used by some con artists to artificially, physically "age" their goods to fit within a certain era. In this context, I found it interesting that the seller specifically mentioned that the pieces were old and then offered photography to "prove" this: splatters of paint on celluloid. Every other attribute of the piece of artwork told a different story.
While counterfeit goods are nothing new, these auctions should serve as a reminder of the financial perils that can befall a collector. Also, this is a hobby where certificates of authenticity and the ability to prove provenance is not readily available which makes this all the more problematic.
Caveat emptor.
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Hope the buyer of those fakes is our good friend the deadbeat scalper 'urbantreasurehunterjapan'.
Now that would be justice!
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I'm somewhat surprised at the prices these two fetched. I believe they are fake. Both are from episode #1, I believe.
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That is one of Mikimoto's sigs used for several of the stuff he did for SDFM....at best it would be the original Hanken for this issue of Animedia....someone talk me out of wanting to believe!!!
Wow. That one is a close match. However, look at the extra line on Minmay's nose. In the "cel" there is a break, in the cover there is an arc. Look at the white highlighting of Minmay's hair in the "cel"... the top arc of the highlight on her leg is a different shape. This might not matter, but the positioning of the signature vis a vis Minmay's leg is off by a lot. Otherwise, it looks remarkably similar.
Also, not one cel here comes with a drawing? Stuck drawing, etc?
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Excellent observations guys...on the "Miss Macross" cel...shouldn't it have been her complete body? Essentially an oversize cel or two cel sheets put together for a camera pan of it when it was originally filmed... And yes, there is someone on ebay who can probably do any of those "cels" or any screenshot you supply for $35....
These are the ones I had made....when compared to original cels....these look cleaner, brighter and too perfect....they are missing 30+ years of "mileage" as Indiana Jones would say.....
These are great reproductions!
When looking at that sellers YJ auctions, I think they do look too "clean." It also looks like there might be artificial "weathering" on the cel spattered paint? Line fading seems almost nil. Thoughts?
What's up with this writing on this "cel" - there's a close up of it: http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m166018821
And, every important cel has no sequence number?
However, even a rudimentary analysis of the cels reveal characteristics atypical of 30 year old production cels, namely: exceptionally sharp lines, vibrant paint colors, and minimum oxidation.
I realize I just repeated what you said. Excellent analysis.
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They may be old fakes.
Here's another comparison. A classic shot of Misa.
A good image, but a fake none the less. For the sake of argument, lets first excuse the differently shaped mouth and say that I didn't get the right frame on the screengrab. Secondly, the face, besides the mouth layer, should be the same cel throughout the shot. On the left, notice the curl over the eye. In the screenshot, the curl is thicker, in the "cel" it is thinner and ends in a sharp line. Look at the shape of the ear. In the screenshot, the ear is elongated and so is the stripe of hair adjacent to it. In the "cel" the ear is more oval and the hair adjacent is wider. Across at the far left, the wisp of hair jutting out from the rest is thin and ends in a sharp point in the screenshot. In the cel, the wisp of hair is more droopy and has not sharp ending. The list goes on. There are inconsistencies regarding the facial structure, the white highlights of her eyes, the highlights of her hair, the width of the collar in the area near the bun of her hair.
This is a very attractive image, but it should not be passed off as a production cel. This is risky territory.
I agree with Fortess Maximus regarding the preponderance of fakes for key sequences/significant scenes.
It is not production art and should not be passed off as such. Bidders should know and be informed - and if one wants a copy--great.
I think JVMacross mentioned that one can get excellent fan cel art for $35 per image. Folks should try to investigate if they are bidding on production art and sellers should be as forthcoming as possible.
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hey Bub....yeah...nothing new and all can be seen in the two books you mentioned among several others.....
OK....everyone is keeping quiet about these
:I'm guessing fancels? None seem to have any frame sequence info on them.....very nicely done though...I'm in on a few of them....
After looking at them, I think they are fan cels, or at the very least, not production cels as we know them from the actual run of Macross.
Let's use the Miss Macross cel as an example. Below is an image of what I believe is the frame from the episode compared to the cel on YJ.
While color shifting can be explained away - monitor temperatures, aging of the cel, photography technique - look at the lines. The dead giveaway is Minmay's expression: it's very different and doesn't change as the camera pans up. Note the line-work around the crown and around the figure, there are outright differences in detail and proportion. In fact, the YJ cel seems to have extra embellishments added. I imagine that the best case scenario is that these cels were official material from the studio for some other purpose. However, I fear they may be passed off as production cels. As fan cels, they are nice and should command fan cel prices.
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Some DYRL cels
Love them!
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Ok I admit it.... I managed to get it .... and as a total newbie (even after reading the FAQs) I just had to fiddle with it. Thankfully there were already multiple layers of protection and a thin plastic sheet between the 2 production cels (marked A1 and B1) so I don't think I did permanent damage. Seniors please don't kill me for manhandling it! Thankfully I think there was no damage from me just pulling the layers apart. What disturbs me is the apparent mold on the plastic in the areas not already covered by the animation colors....
I aim to clean it but a bit wary of using even water... hope microfiber cloth will work. Will also try and frame it up... not sure if my local stores have UV resistant glass or how much they cost but will try and see. Thanks for all the advice and very excited to have my first ever Macross cel (I think its a production cel but not 100% sure).
Hope to share more with the community when I'm done!
Congratulations.on your first Macross cel! And, a nice image of Misa Hayase is a great way to start collecting! Have loads of fun with it and enjoy your one of a kind work of art!
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Anyone here nab this one? Way to go! At least it won't get marked up on ebay....maybe!
http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b192540297
I was going to bid but I overslept :/. Thanks for the link. Hope the new owner enjoys!
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I'm sure I asked this before. But I'm watching Southern Cross and just thinking about scenes. Anyway, how many of you guys were collecting or knew about cels in the 80s and 90s? I was purchasing anime stuff then but I didn't know about cels. No one told me I could own a scene from the show. Did you guys that were collecting cels then see a ton of Southern Cross cels? What about Mospeada?
I remember getting a number of nice voltron cels via the Mandarake in Torrance, California store. There was a wider range of merchants back in the 90's and cel collecting appeared to be more popular back then.
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Fortress Maxiums – A agree that, in general, the demand for cels as collectibles will decrease as time goes by. The cels, themselves, will degrade in quality and the paint and plastic of which they are composed will eventually degrade and reveal their true nature as investments (much like real estate in south Florida): sunk costs.
Part of my feeling that the market for cels will naturally decline is that most anime of created during the period of hand painted cels will be alien to younger generations. Also, future generations may have a completely different feeling about what is art. With all of this modern technology, the notion of owning a piece of decomposing plastic compared to many other ways of spending disposable income may not be as interesting.
However, there is a counterpoint to the above argument, that I made in my previous post, and also alluded to by Mokman. That is, the staying power of very popular animation series/franchises. Mokman points to Disney as an example. I think Disney is both a good and bad example for this argument. Disney has maintained high popularity in popular culture, thereby bridging the gap between its modern properties and older cel animated properties. This has successfully introduced younger generations to the old Disney “classics” and kept the perception of quality Disney cels as a valuable item (worth good money). I think the Disney example fails when compared to anime, because the staying power of the shows just isn’t there (maybe in Japan it is?).
Macross, may, possibly be a different animal because it is so iconic. Fortress Maximus correctly points out the decline in value of cels from once popular anime like Ranma and Urusei Yatsura. However, the difference between those shows and Macross is that they had many, many more episodes (hundred(s) more than the 36 episode run of Macross. Factor in the fact that a good percentage of Macross artwork was farmed out to Korea(?) and has sub-standard art, and you realize that quality examples from the TV show are rare. And, again, it only takes one buyer to purchase a cel at a high price, or two bidders to bid-up a great image.
Regarding cel collecting impacting major life decisions – I don’t think my collection is nearly significant enough to allow for early retirement (if only)! If I did have a collection that would allow me to retire early, I would seriously consider a major sell-off! Yes. if major life problems develop, the cels will go.
I imagine I will sell a good portion of what I have at some point and keep (or acquire) just a very few. I have most of my cels in a book, and I cannot view them often. This is probably an indication that I need to trim the collection. If I cannot look at them, why own them? Also, preservation and care is a major issue with this type of merchandise, and that is a hassle.
As the old adage says, you can’t take it with you. I agree that many other aspects in life are much more important.
Still…the collecting bug isn’t dead yet…
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Got some questions to actual cel collectors:
What do you see as the future for your cel collection?
Do you feel you might be compelled to stop? Perhaps due to family financial responsibilities, saving for retirement, caring for elder parents, children, or job loss?
Partly asking because most collectors I've known over the post 30+ years, quit. Thanks for sharing.
I have mostly stopped purchasing cels. The main reason is due to scarcity of quality examples from shows I like. A second reason is money (of course). I have two goals for my collection:
1. Pare it down and actively sell examples of which I am no longer fond.
2. Specifically acquire amazing examples of Macross TV cels of Misa Hayase (nearly impossible at this point as they almost never come up, or it's a one day auction and you've got to stay glued to your computer to get in on them).
To answer your questions - I do (and have) felt compelled to stop collecting due to financial reasons. At some point, it just becomes irresponsible to put the collection ahead of other priorities, especially the ones you mention. However, if it's the right image, I'm still very tempted. Also, the current product for sale in the marketplace is not very good, so the market has made the decision easier for me.
To JV's point - If a sell-off is coming, which I think we've already seen from time to time on YJ and Mandarake (less so on ebay), I think the prices will still be high if the quality of the product is there.
While I agree that there may have been more Macross fans in the past and fewer as the years go by, nothing I've seen in aforementioned auctions for very high quality cels indicates that prices will be be low when quality hits the market. The buyers, however few, are there. This sort of reminds me of the luxury watch auction houses--they offer merchandise at insanely high prices with only a very few bidders; but, the product sells. It only take two to tango and keep prices high.
The thing about cels that's both wonderful and terrible is that they are singular, unique pieces of art that are volatile. They are disintegrating as they get older, so any investment in them is a sentimental investment and should not be undertaken with an idea for recouping funds later, as the product may have, literally, melted away.
But, for the few who collect, we do it because we love it.The art, however impractical to own (and maintain), means something to us.
And with that said - if you've got high quality Misa...PM me
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Overpriced Macross cel coming soon to an ebay auction near you!
http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k194085897
You, sir are a psychic. Anyone ready to dip for $450?
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That might go for 1K for this sale . . .
Well, it's 2 days out, so it'll be fun to watch. Time will tell.
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The Misa example is fairly nice. If he wins it, he'll price it at 1k!
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That's a fun cel from episode one. I've seen a number of those on YJP. Another will come up. So, pass on the ebay relist
Macross/Animation Cel Collection Thread
in Collectors
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Nice addition, JV! I saw this on YJ, but lost track of it by the end. Great find and with a background!