tepidarium

While anything is possible, it would be, obviously, very unethical for Rinkya to do anything like this. I think it is much more probable that if it was internal bidding, there simply were Rinkya end-users doing the actual bidding. 

33 minutes ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

These were some good old dotcom era flame bidding wars!    Some of the dougas were good and from an important sequence, but are they really worth the final price?  The only one I think ended at a reasonable price was the solo Hikaru one, all the rest went well over value due to bidding wars.  One of the highest priced ones was the Hikaru's helmet reflection, considering the extremely poor condition it was in, it is not worth the final price.  The douga for Millia was overpriced and especially Gloval's cel; I watched both, but once it passed certain markers, it was foolish to continue with the asinine bidding war. 

Congratulations to whomever won these old dougas and cels!   I truly hope you do your best to protect them from increased deterioration.  Japanese collectors are known for not adequately protecting their artwork, so odds are the cel with vinegar syndrome impacted other artwork stored with it.  If you won that specific cel, do your best to quarantine it and let us know how things progress.  Good luck!

Yes! We all love the episode 27 black and white sequence   I was watching those dougas and it was quite something to see the prices they realized. I've not seen those prices for dougas. Still, it's Misa, and she's smiling (which is a rarity) so the price goes higher?  

Vinegar syndrome is scary. It's good of the seller to mention it, and I hope the buyer knows to keep it away from other cels.

46 minutes ago, Mokman said:

My max on that cel was $450.  That didn't even make me the high bidder for a short period of time, lol.

The cel was very nice, however I was concerned with the warping and the seller's comment that it had a vinegar (syndrome) odor .

12 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

One of those times where the losing bidder could be considered the actual winner.....

SDFM - Hikaru/Misa douga.........110,890 JPY

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e354057063

 

g*6*p*** / 27883   High bidder	110,890 yen	1	2019-05-06 13:39
R*d*w*** / 35289	109,890 yen	1	2019-05-13 01:04
b*n*R*** / 146	33,000 yen	1	2019-05-12 23:11
3*l*l*** / 1344	31,000 yen	1	2019-05-12 23:07

So essentially the results of a bidding war between two proxy bidding fools....

The highest amount a, most likely, Japanese bidder was willing to spend on it was around 300 USD....a reasonable amount

I guess one good thing about this is that for current cel collectors/owners.....the value of their collections can be expected to skyrocket?

The bad news is the ability to continue to add to said collections keeps getting more expensive...

I suppose another good thing is that it can probably be assumed that  some of these sales went to folks that are not looking to resell....but then again, the flipside is that it will just embolden the likes of our ebay and local scumbag resellers to keep pillaging YJA for "treasures" to resell at triple the final auction prices on ebay...

These auctions were crazy. Get out the warm popcorn indeed.  But are you really surprised at the prices?  It's been trending that way for some time. Not to reopen the whole "scalper" thing but, something is "worth" whatever someone is willing to pay for it.  These items are worth their price because they got buyers, and we should expect that this is the current market.  All it takes is a few buyers to change the market anyway. FWIW, at these prices, for single pieces, I don't think they were bought to be resold (at least immediately), so I tend to think these are going in private collections. Some of the prices on these may also be a reflection of what happens when the supply is so lean for so long (and of poor quality) that when something half way decent comes up demand increases.  

The "boom" in cel collecting during the early internet years was a one and done. Small-time dealers setting up virtual shops online with low overhead and a generation of people demanding production art from the last wave of celluloid animated productions with good supply from the origin country all came together to create the market as it was.  Yes, it's been bone dry for some time. 

It's true, I didn't mention that my eBay comment related to auctions that are now over 15 years old! I bought quite a number of excellent cels that I treasure on eBay in the late 90s and early 2000s. 

As for shill bidding on YJ, one can never really know if it is occurring but I believe Rinkya, at one point, only used one user name which allowed for easy identification of the bidding service and could possibly have served to motivate shill bidders.

Which is worse - missing out on a cel when a dealer updates a site or getting shill bid on YJ or sniped on an eBay auction? I'm tired of both. Is there no peaceful way to acquire art? Yeah, I know the answer: demand creates the crazy market.

Back in the day, Animanga had a great community forum for cel collectors.  And Cels.org cel dealer tracker, too!  Now, the cel tracking merchant websites are gone

2 minutes ago, tepidarium said:

This looks better than the Legend of the Galactic Heroes character redesigns. Those are terrible. 

On second thought: Misa needs her trademark hair rolls emphasized...

37 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Mikimoto's latest Macross character designs from Macross the First are way better than his 90's stuff....but still not as good as his original SDFM stuff...

 

 

 

This looks better than the Legend of the Galactic Heroes character redesigns. Those are terrible. 

1 minute ago, jvmacross said:

Originally......7750 JPY

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k302245527

 

 

Now.....25% off!!!

https://m.ebay.com/itm/MACROSS-ROBOTECH-MILIA-TV-ANIME-PRODUCTION-CEL-2/401540506549?hash=item5d7dade3b5:g:naUAAOSw95lbAdgE

It only takes one person to prove the seller right...  

Macross was guilty of poor illustration at times. Seeing this image reminds me of that. There are some really great shots of Milia. This isn't one of them.  The scene is significant, though. And there's the conundrum, collect well illustrated images or important images. Sometimes the important ones are poor visual examples of the character.

5 minutes ago, Oden said:

I remember seeing those cels up for auction somewhere before in the not so distant past. Does anyone recall?

They were on Yahoo Japan at the beginning of the year.  The auction contained six cels - these were the two best. The lot went for roughly 1000 USD.  The ebay treasure hunter is looking to turn a nice profit...

9 hours ago, juice14 said:

Can't remember how much I paid but I am sure it was too much lol..... at least the prints were cheap lol

These are great! Congratulations on adding them to your collection

On 1/23/2017 at 10:27 PM, Fortress_Maximus said:

 

I concur!

At this point, we're looking for the Loch Ness Monster unless some silent collectors release their treasures

On 1/18/2017 at 3:47 PM, baronv said:

So jealous that collectors are still finding Macross cels. I've pretty much stalled on cel collecting since the prime cels are just too hard to find these days and I don't have the fortitude to deal with Y!Japan anymore.

I do check cel sellers at cons I go to but they're mainly American 80s cartoons.

Finding quality examples is a needle in a haystack operation nowadays. But the promise of finding that one great shot (or forgery!) can still be realized...yes, this is when you know you've gone off the edge with cel collecting. Is the hunt worth it? 

On 1/18/2017 at 8:13 PM, Fortress_Maximus said:

Yup missing a bit on the edges and bottom.  Ok scratch my earlier comment jvmacross, I didn't recheck the full sized image you posted.  I am pretty sure it is a fake now.  The acetate size is completely wrong!  Also, notice there are areas where the creases do not cast shadows?  Then there's the missing reflection from Max's glasses, plus his missing cuffs, and of course Millia's right and left arms!  Looks like we have another forgery group becoming active on YJP.

This does look to be a fake, but could the missing reflection from Max's glasses be due to an effects layer that was separated from the rest?

When I look at these pieces, I often find that the best places to compare are the wispy strands of hair and the creases in the clothing. I check the angles that they form with the negative space created around the lines to see if they match up. Though,  I'm not sure if this is wholly reliable, as sometimes a real cel can have a poorly mastered derivative image created for online display. 

The counterfeiting is disconcerting, but something that is important to recognize.  Remember those terrible fakes on YJ over the summer? I believe some are still up for auction on ebay...

On 1/17/2017 at 0:02 PM, Fortress_Maximus said:

@tepidarium  Make time to scan your cels and artwork and display them in your RS gallery.  This is a great way to view them more frequently without increasing the likelihood of damaging the artwork.   I only take my cels out to conduct the inspections previously mentioned.  Good luck!

I wanted to thank everyone who posted for their advice.  Probably, I will keep the cel quarantined from the rest of the collection and will try to expose it to as much air as possible. After a good long while, I will reassess the condition and may choose to remove the douga in due course.  

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Don't do it....just frame it and enjoy it.  Since there is no matching background it actually looks cool with the matching pencil sketch peeking behind it.

I assure you both the cel and stuck douga will outlast you in its current state! 

Ha  you're probably right about the cel outlasting me.  I have so many I'd like to frame.  That's a whole other topic entirely.  I know you frame yours. The subject has always been somewhat obscure to me. I've heard of people suspending each layer so that it doesn't come in contact with the matte, with the background, or other layers.  How are you framing your cels, JV?

I'd love to get my "healthier" cels up on the wall, but the perceived expense, confusion, and concerns about conservation have stopped me.  So,the cels sit in my Itoyas and I don't look at them as much as I'd like....haven't scanned in my stuff in a long time.

8 minutes ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

Mylars can help and they are often more durable too.  I've tried the misting and freezer methods both with success.  Yes freezing can crack the paint, but that is why it is essential to not overdo it.  You need to proactively watch it.  Test the technique on a low end cel or throw away if you can first before attempting on your DYRL cel.  The key thing to remember is whether or not you want to preserve the douga.  Deciding what is an acceptable loss is helpful. 

Vinegar syndrome can spread that is why quarantining your affected douga is important.  Since no one knows the storage conditions of the cel and douga prior to your purchase from YJP, it is safe to assume it may have been in contact with other cels that were also impacted with vinegar syndrome. 

Personally, I'd scan the cel and douga if possible and view it digitally instead of in-person which will only accelerate the vinegar process compounded with traceline fading and oxidation.  Good luck.

Unfortunately, I don't have a stuck cel that I can sacrifice as an experiment. I can't subject this Misa cel to the freezer - I don't have enough experience to risk it.  I think I will have to mist off the douga, which, in the past means destruction of the douga.  JV & Fortress, I appreciate your advice.   

Here's the aforementioned Misa DYRL cel.

5 hours ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

In that case, you may wish to consider quarantining the artwork from the rest.  In my research and discussions with other collectors and dealers, some recommend completely isolating the artwork suffering from vinegar syndrome from other collections.  Have you tested using microchamber paper and mylars to see if the affected artwork improves?  In an absolute worst case you might want to sell it to avoid infecting as it were the rest of your collection.  And just in case, I recommend researching more about the freezer method for separating douga/genga from cels.  Good luck and let us know how things develop.

Hi,

I've not yet tried  microchamber paper. I've been using polypropylene bags, not mylar.  I am contemplating removing the douga by way of a mist machine.  This has worked for other cels, but, unfortunately, has destroyed the douga in cases where the majority of the celluloid surface is covered by ink and thus stuck the drawing. If the douga was the main problem, it's destruction would be an acceptable trade-off, I think. To my mind, the misting method is preferable to the freezer method, as I've read that the freezer method can crack the paint (that is my recollection). 

In any case, have you heard of vinegar syndrome being confined to the douga? That would appear counter intuitive to me given the description of the causes of vinegar syndrome.  The smell is really faint (to my nose!) and I really think it is more pronounced or even wholly confined to the douga.

3 hours ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

The faint smell typically caused by vinegar syndrome should not be taken lightly or ignored.  We've discussed cel and artwork preservation techniques in the past.  In my experience, I've employ a variety of cel preservation techniques with considerable success. I hope sharing our collective cel preservation and storage strategies can help other cel collectors too. Your mileage may vary.  Share your own tips!

* Inspection (3 months) - Visually inspect every three months the bags for warping and, smell the folders for possible odors (paint fumes), both indicate vinegar syndrome.
* Bagging (6 months) - Replace cel bags semi-annually and cut the corners, so fumes do not get trapped. Do not seal or tape bag shut. Every six months remove cels from the bags and allow to breathe overnight. Only do in a cool, dark room with no ambient lighting.
* Acid - Test using acid free backing card boards with archival quality MicroChamber paper. Experiment purchasing MicroChamber paper for more valuable cels and artwork.
* Separate - All dougas, gengas, settei, and backgrounds into individual bags and store in another Itoya folder.
* Storage (6 months) - Avoid stacking cel books to reduce paint cracking caused by pressure. Try hanging folders in a storage container by using file hanging folders. Avoid storing folders in fully enclosed containers unless routinely inspected; minimum is semi-annually. Or store in a cool closet using sturdy wooden hangers placed into the center and have a support shelf underneath. 
* Moisture (annually) -  Reduce moisture with silica packets and place in-between folders and in various corners of the storage unit. Make small packets using kitty litter or baking soda.

Lastly, all of these cel preservation strategies help, but in my experience none are full proof. Intangibles that affect the speed of deterioration include, how the cel was stored prior to purchase, the type of cel (TV vs OVA vs movie vs hanken mono), and the age.  Eventually the vast majority of production cels and even hanken monos will deteriorate. I feel we are merely temporary curators for these memorable creative works.  It makes sense to scan them carefully (view online not the originals), and preserve the artwork well initially, to help reduce deterioration.  Good luck!

Thank you for this.  These are great strategies. Unfortunately, the douga is stuck to the cel. From my recollection, the paper had more of an odor than the cel itself if that makes sense.  I may be in for too much with this particular Misa cel.  But, then again, as you say, we are merely "temporary curators" for these ephemeral works. 

2 hours ago, JetJockey said:

I would be concerned about a vinegar smell. Even the slightest vinegar smell as that's the warning of breakdown occurring. I was talking to someone who is more into comic, poster, and other item storage recently and he basically got me into the mentality that everything will breakdown. It's just a matter of storing it in the best possible way. The main thing seems to be neutralizing acidity for paper and stuff of that nature and consistent conditions. More and more I think about it, these cels sitting around in cel bags, stacked and enclosed with a bunch of other cels, sitting since purchase years ago with standard tape or stapled to sketches / backgrounds are a recipe for disaster. That acid migrates. I've seen it with my old comics and cheap poor grade boards from when I was young. Collectors / Sellers at least need to store this stuff right whatever they intend to do with it in the future.

 

I know I need to check my old Super 8 films too as that vinegar thing can happen to film.

Yeah. The thing is that I wouldn't have even noticed it if not told to look out for it. It is fairly faint. I've come to terms that all cels, by their nature, are volatile and degrading slowly (I guess you can say that about all matter - including the person typing this message :))  What is there to do but enjoy the artwork we have and take care of them the best care of it that we can?  

3 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Have you posted a pic? I don't recall that one.

No.  I have yet to do anything with it. I hope to do so when things calm down.

On 1/8/2017 at 4:18 PM, jvmacross said:

Thanks!

 

Have you added anything to your collection recently?

A little while back, I bought a Misa Hayase DYRL cel on YJ.  I didn't read the translation which said it had a vinegar smell   It's a nice cel, but it's in quarantine from the rest of the collection. Actually, I barely notice any smell at all, so I'm not sure how much to be concerned by this.