Boxer

Been looking at this since it arrived in our Local game store. Of course I'll be configuring everything Macross-style if I get it, but I'm looking at all those real-life alternate schemes and weapons loadouts and wondering if I'll configure all the UNS stuff as JDSF, bundeswehr, or US Marines instead. Any modelers here know where I can find some 1/285 ordinance add-ons to go on the Valks?

Robots paralleling the Monolith, the wormhole paralleling the space bridge, the docking sequence remixing the Pan-Am Clipper docking.... feels like this was 2001 but with a plot. Didn't grab me hard enough to make me want to go see it again but I thought it was one of the best exploration films I've seen. The Presentation was certainly incredible enough to blow my socks off.

I read originally that TARS and CASE were supposed to be humanoid. I'm glad they didn't end that way. The Robot designs are fantastic!

Also... apparently the spaceships weren't CGI. They were all physical models. Wow!

...and space colony clusters.

I recall there was mention of a factory at a lagrange point manufacturing ARMDs and Oberths... but were concrete facts ever given about Earth's orbital assets? And how did they survive without being obliterated by the Zentreadi? (unless they started with the planet first?)

I need to check my facts more... I presumed there was a VF-17 in the M3 game.

Still, according to the dates in the Macross mecha manual there were three years between the debut of the VF-17D (2035) and the launch of Macross 7 (2038). If a 17A model had been several years earlier than that, could we assume Millia and Max were around to test them?

Ah, I mis-read that. I remember she had the valk for whatever operation it was to steal the Factory Satellite at least.

Nope... space is BIG. Even assuming that the Megaroad-01 is somewhere in or near a solar system, the odds of running into them by accident or design are minuscule at best. If they're not in or near a solar system (or at the very least, near a star) then the chances of finding them are practically zero. Of course, that's assuming there's something left of the ship and its fleet to find... it could easily have folded out into the photoevaporation sphere of a nearby star and been destroyed, or drawn into a black hole and crushed, or even attacked by a rogue fleet of Zentradi or the remnants of the Supervision Army and wiped out.

My thinking was along the lines of finding out Megaroad-01 had settled, and it was a matter of running into signals from the planet settled and/or the local patrols set up around the area. In the very least, some evidence to point to what happened. IIRC, Megaroad-01's destination was 'near the center of the galaxy', or did they just keep going around the core?

Then again I suppose it's useless asking since it's a subject Kawamori will never return to (they've already ridden off into the sunset).

Eh... one would imagine that any surviving Varauta Army technology would've been seized by the U.N. Spacy for study and possible reverse-engineering. It's possible that some might've been pressed into service by the local defense forces, assuming the Varauta system colony wasn't abandoned after the war, but I doubt that any got made after the war ended... presumably because the U.N. Spacy had already moved onto a new generation of advanced variable fighters with the VF-19, VF-22, and VF-171. Remember, the Fz-109 series was supposedly a derivative of the VF-14 Vampire, the competing design that lost out to the VF-11 Thunderbolt.

Well, how about the AZ-130 and the other variable attack craft? The capital vessels at least? I imagine that the UN Spacy would be interested in a couple or several enemy craft for study, but the rest were either 'disposed of' or refitted for UN Spacy service with the Varuta colony. I'm not finished with Mac 7 yet, but my thinking was that with the Protodevlin gone, Varuta was inhabited by the former Megarod colonists who settled there, and they re-used their Varuta-era machinery (ones that were modified, anyway) as their defense forces until they manufactured newer replacements from the UN Spacy. The FZ-109 seems to be just as effective as the VF-11, and the VF-19 was just being rolled out. The difference is between having a standing defense force with little modification, drawing from Macross7's already depleted space defenses, or being defenseless without either until they could manufacture replacements and re-tool their existing factories to do so.

After all given what discussions I've read on colony fleet diversification, using refitted, former Supervivion FZ-109s sounds like the beginning of fleets using ships other than a 'universal standard' variable fighter.

Oh, I remember the Red VF-1x (It's hard to miss). My comment relates to Gamlin telling Milia she 'wasn't rated for [the VF-17]'. I thought it was a sure thing by then that she had flown one of the early VF-17s already in her colors. Then again as I think about it, it might be a mis-translation (the one I'm watching has the 'cake' translation from Hikaru's VA, which as I recall was commented on here in the thread). As of Episode 23 it's been destroyed sans the nose cone, so I doubt it shows up in episode 34

Though considering Millia's VF-1 and the mecha in the hands of the civilians, I wonder what the policy is for the UN Spacy to phase out equipment. Those certainly didn't look like VF-1Cs, and who gives a functioning Monster to civilians? In Millia's case I guess her status as a Space War One Legend allows her to keep her VF-1. I wonder if Max had his stashed somewhere (or donated), since he would have known Millia kept hers.

With all the colonization fleets pushing to the galactic core, do any of them expect to run into Megaroad-01 (or what's left of Megaroad-01?)

I felt that if Kawamori wanted to revisit Megaroad-01, it would be through Miku Ichijo's eyes. Her parents might be legendary, but does excluding them from the picture mean Miku doesn't get any life? Or is that the way it should be? :\

Here's a newbie question/consideration: At the end of Macross 7, should we presume the freed Varutan colonists shredded their remaining military equipment or did they recycle all the Protodevlin-era technology but removed all the spiritua gear? I have this idea of an FZ-109 in UN Spacy Livery and wondering if it was possible...

Well... Thoughts on Episode 23 before I give it a rest for the night.

This is the episode that premieres the Sound Force. After Basara finally 'shows up' for the ceremony, I have to wonder how many of the UN officers were asking themselves why they were investing so much in such a temperamental diva. It sounds like Basara is ungrateful for the military shelling out two new valkyries to augment his "band in space", and I can see that adding to the sentiment against him by Macross fans. But! The band must go into space, so it has to be despite how many would have misgivings about it. And adding to my earlier thoughts on the usefulness of Basra's valk... I'd wager it won't be useful until confronting the Protodevlin directly (since I know Operation Stargazer is somewhere in the future, I'd guess this would be the 'proof' that conventional forces are useless and Basara's singing is the only hope they have).

The second significant plot point of the episode is, perhaps, Sivil showing herself to Basra for the first time without 'an alias'. She vocalizes what pretty much all of us know she's thinking before flying off and causing the commando vampires to strike again. Still, I noted that Basra got to know Sivil's name without her introducing herself... makes me wonder if Basra 'learned' anything more from the Protodevlin other than that. Though knowing Basra's character he probably wouldn't share that information, since it doesn't pertain to his song or how anyone understands it or not.

I read once about the series some commentary regarding Max and Millia, and I've kept an eye on the exchanges and such between them to see if there was anything to it. I noticed Max here wondered to himself when the conversations between himself and his wife got cold. I always assumed that their marriage always had a level of professionalism to it, since both of them were ace pilots for most of their years and lived pretty much on the front lines (A military life, then?). To me, Max's comment suggests that their relationship got colder even then that. Both them seem to show evidence of the regret of this- Max to me is more obvious in this regard. He keeps asking about Mylene, which to me says he's asking about their marriage. Millia holds on to her Red Valkyrie, even in 'spirit' by adopting a VF-17 and painting it Red (I'd assume she flew a red one before, when she was an Ace in the formal military). Maybe part of her expects one day to have Max come back in a blue counterpart *shrug*.

For my closing thought on this episode... Sivil's 'confrontation' of Basra made me wonder

Hi all.

Spotted this thread a while ago and it encouraged me to finally check out Macross 7. I've just finished Episode 19 after rushing to catch up, since I'd like to participate in the discussion.

Firstly I guess I should say where I'm coming from. SDF:M's animeigo set is the only experience I've had with Macross so far (no Plus, no F, nothing). Since I'm a mech head though, I've already read up on the nature of the Varuta/Protodevilin and know some game-breaking spoilers. However, I've found that reading synopsis isn't the same as 'actually being there' when you're watching the series, so I set out to do so. Have it playing side-by-side with artwork I'm making, so I might have missed one or two minor details.

Before watching the series I had the opinion that it was full of craziness, the Basara was just a hotheaded singer who was obsessed with singing and didn't care really who or what was in his way. I thought the human face mecha was silly, and the concept of singing at your enemy was some new-age thought processes that somehow tried to find legitimacy in a super robot show. *shrug*

I've been forming some thoughts as I watch, as I kept this thread in mind to share my opinions about this crazy thing called Macross 7.

First is the early-episode assessment of Gamlin from some of the other posters here. Keeping that in mind as I watched the early episodes, I didn't think Gamiln's reaction to Basra was over the top. If anything it's what I would have expected to feel if some clown in a civilian plane started dancing in the middle of combat blaring rock music. Without knowing Basra's plans or intentions I'd get angry at him too... since not only is he dancing in the way of combat and messing up your thinking by obnoxious music, but he's also a Macross 7 civilian and you have to protect him. Gamlin's upset is compounded by the fact that his superiors seem to want the nonsense civilian there, apparently without any clear reason.

In a way that brings me to my second thought... Basra. He never stops to explain his intentions. Without some of the input from the other posters here I think I'd be just as frustrated as Gamlin is. Basra's mode of operation seems to be to sing at people and leave it to them to understand what he's trying to do, or he hopes that they will be so swept up in the power of rock that it wouldn't matter. Putting aside for a moment the fact that I find Planet Dance annoying (perhaps overplayed), that Basra doesn't try to explain to anyone what he's trying to do is probably what makes so many dislike him. He wants you to understand what he's trying to do HIS way, he doesn't try to mediate by giving reason to his rhyming. In a way, I think he brings his own frustrations on himself in the fist few episodes because he doesn't articulate his frustrations other than whining "they just don't get my song".

Moving into my third point, I'm not sure if 'culture shock' is being effective as the cast (and maybe Kawamori?) might hope. Basra's singing doesn't seem to have much effect on the real fighting (except to agitate and anger people). All the while I presumed that Basra's singing might jolt the Varuta pilots out of their trance and it might 'work' that way, but it seems the brainwashed pilots are completely deaf to Basra's signing. So the only thing the Fire Valkyrie seems to contribute so far is as a mobile shield, eye-catching target, and counter to Sivil. Basra's affects seem so specific that it makes me wonder what would happen if the Macross fleet ran into an enemy that had its own culture and music. Basra would be completely superfluous in that case- and probably destroyed first if he insisted on getting in the way of the combatants.

Further on culture shock, it's interesting to compare use and effect here of Culture from Macross TV v Macross 7's understanding and useage. I didn't get the sense that Minmay knew her singing would end the war until the military had in their heads that culture shock was affecting the Zentraedi. It was completely unintentional, and the effects of her singing weren't so much to stop the enemy completely from fighting as they were to stop and wonder what this strange thing was. Knowing this years later, Basara tries to go for this effect deliberately but (so far) fails with the Varuta (except Sivil). The connection was made for Mylene (and us) that Basara's like Minmay during the Minmay episode, but I think the circumstances, causes, and effects are different between the two shows, even though Basra's trying to replicate the 'Minmay effect'. Again, had the enemy been their own culture and not headed by superhuman Protodevilin with orgasmic results a particular weakness for Music, then I think the theme of Macross 7 would have been lost.

On the matter of Sivil... her behavior so far reminds me a lot of the Ilea probe from Star Trek I. She doesn't have much vocalization, and in a way I can interpret her as an independent bio-weapon designed to collect spirita more effectively than the massed fleet or the soul-sucking vampires (whatever happened to them by the way? They seemed to lie low after that one pilot got captured). Oddly enough, like the Ilea Probe, Sivil will respond to a 'human factor' while ultimately defeating any attempts at force used against her (the Trek probe was supposed to have zapped a guard in a cut scene).

Though on Spiria collection... it's a whole 'nother level of horror when you realize that most of the crew in that carrier died without the chance of getting free- they were all zapped and soulless, unable to escape, when they died in the explosion. Spirita sucking is a two-edged sword... you're not dead and you stand the chance of recovery, but on the other hand you're too powerless to escape real death on your own.

So far the series is turning out to be entertaining, and not what I expected when I reflect on the summaries. I really wish 'Planet Dance' wouldn't be the choice of music whenever Basara goes out for combat. I understand that it's the 'theme' of Macross 7's plot (I think,) and I realize Music is Basra's way of fighting, but I really wish he would mix it up a little. I mean, are the fans tolerant of him singing the same song over and over again? I know of it's ear-worm potential... faced that recently with "Sunday Clothes" from Wall-E... I'm willing to bet that the obnoxious harmonica in Planet Dance will prevent it from being stuck in my brain and ultimately liked. Mylene's music is far more enjoyable to my ears... helps some that I like the character

All in all the ride's been an interesting one so far. I'd be tempted to jump ahead as well, though I'm not sure where you guys left off in the series. Episode 19 was the one to have a review last.. though it's been more than one Friday since that one.

Harmony Gold will no doubt continue to squat on Robotech and the licenses that shat it into being like a large, mentally-handicapped frog for the foreseeable future.

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the newbie Macross thread, but would this be the reason why Macross F came up with the 'New UN Spacy' and a new logo? Is Kawamori trying to distance himself from SDF:M so that Macross can stand apart from Robotech?

Zentraedi Control Zone

Is an expansive area, currently off-limits to UNG personnel and shipping, by treaty with the Zentraedi commander in charge of the Zentraedi Grand Fleet, which controls and constantly patrols the area. The commander continues to follow the order of the Protocultures to avoid the Protoculture. In addition, he follows the last orders that he received from the Protocultures, which were to maintain control and security of the area, and protect it from the Supervision Army.

In the last decade, a number of rogue Zentraedi have migrated from the UNG territories into the control zone; and are currently at war with the Grand Fleet.

I find this extremely interesting. What are the circumstances behind it? How was a treaty reached between the Zentraedi and the UNG? Was a UNG Zentreadi delegation sent to negotiate on behalf of the UNG?

I always assumed the Zentraedi were belligerent to the UN Spacy/UN Government. This is the first bit I've seen that shows this isn't the case.

I would actually assume the zentradi DON'T have much in the way of medical technology.

Why bother, when you can pop the top on a clone chamber and send a fresh troop to the front immediately instead of waiting for the injured guy to heal?

That would be my presumption as well, though I thought it was worth speculating about. They would have needed some way to analyze/examine the miclones though. Would they have left that up to machines, or would the Protoculture have bread specialists to do the job? Or would that be another task of the fleet archivist(s)?

Does anyone have an answer on that ASS-1 drawing? Is it official Macross or where does it come from?

I would guess from the wreckage of the ship, humanity could determine they were facing giant bipeds with hands and digits (to press the buttons) that required a pressurized atmosphere. For all they knew, they could be facing giant Star Trek aliens. On the matter of databases and such, I wonder now if either of the 'superpowers' (Supervision Army / Zentradi) use doctors or any other medical technologies. If they can't repair the equipment, what's to say they can repair the people?

(Imagine the consequences, then, had the UN Spacy decided to use biological warfare)

On the matter of Maclones... you can perhaps suggest that it would be the larger capital ships that would have miclones, and ships like the numerous gun destroyers would be manned by pure Zentradi. I can imagine that the 'production rate' of the Zentradi was high enough that there were more to brainwash and man starships than the protocultures. The Miclones were probably smarter than the average Zentran too. Did they handle this in Mac7? Wasn't Macross 5 a Zentradi fleet? Or did they just micronize any full-sized Zentradi they came across to fill the ranks?

Depends on how many Miclones the supervision army used. If most of what the SA was using were brainwashed Zentradi then they wouldn't had need for the smaller accommodations. This might be the case since otherwise it would have gone mentioned, surely?

Though while we're dancing on the matter of the ASS-1, was there any clear image of its pre-crash state (other than the space-wrecked derelict)? There's an image and profile up on steelfalcon, with an accompanying model (presumably fan-built?) Is this an official image or one created for Robotech?

They couldn't have found any remains of the previous crew (Zentradi), otherwise there would have been DNA tests or comparisons with humanity. Likely they examined what architecture remained and concluded that they were giants, but not the exact form.

Thanks for the answers on the Q-Rau/Rhea guys.

Speaking of the ASS-1, is it presumed that the war between the Zentradi and the Supervision army is still ongoing? I find it a little surprising that Earth hasn't encountered another Zentran fleet/ The Supervision Army if that was the case. I guess you could count the Protodevlin, but I was wondering about the original supervision army. Are they still out there, or has the war boiled down to a "mop up operation" by the Zentradi?

I wondered if that was the case, though I wasn't sure if there was room in the torso for a meltran to scrunch her legs in there.

I dunno if this is a robotech source or not, but I seem to have the notion that only the Gnerl and Queadluun-Rau were adopted by the UN Spacy. You might count the Glaug as well, since a Variable version was created around the time of VF:X (though whether it persisted or not is another question... what do full-sized Zentradi male forces use for combat?)

Though that's a thing about the V-Glaug... The Macross mecha manual states accommodation for a child Zentradi? Wouldn't it be issued to full-sized adults instead?

these arn't official but they're pretty accurate scale wise and jive with how seto explained it.

I've seen those diagrams actually. They help, but I wondered if there was any ultra-rare illustrations out there somewhere that clarified the issue. I was wondering specifically about the hip/knee connections and was wondering how they matched up with those of the pilot. Some images of the Q-Rau throw me for a loop like this one of the Queadluun-Rea. See the leg joints? How is a pilot's leg supposed to fit through that? It looks like an inverted T where the legs swivel on the joint without any upper-leg-limb connection to the pilot.

Some of the older drawings of the Q-Rau don't seem to have that problem though (like the ones kaiba linked). Klan's is the most obvious example I could find.

Here's a quick question- anyone have a diagram of how exactly full-sized Zentreadi fit into their power armors? Things seem to make sense around the chest, but I'm having difficulty visualizing how the torso and leg sections articulate when the unit is moving with a pilot inside. Epically when I see some of the leg connections on the Queadlunn-Rau don't look like they can fit a normal leg in there.

Chipping in here,

Galactica, the original series took a horrible race threatening event and made it into a fun campy sitcom. Galactica reinvisioned was dark, a lot more realistic, and a lot more representative of a race on the edge of extinction.

Personally I think Galactica is a really bad precedent for "remakes" to follow, mostly because it succeeded in offending the entire fan base of the original. While all of the TOS fans acknowledge the show had its bad and campy moments, Moore threw out the baby with the bathwater and ended up with something that used only the names and none of what fans actually liked beyond the cheese. I felt the resulting angst-ridden navel-gazing depress-fest lacked the imagination of the original premise, using the show instead as some convoluted commentary on contemporary politics with a sci-fi setting. Some would argue the old show deserves the remake for how 'cheesy' it was, but I think it's akin to dismissing Macross TV entirely as utter crap because it has "terrible animation" and dated dialogue. There's something beyond the surface of the show that make fans like it, and Moore missed it entirely in his remake. After all, fans don't love macross because of its animation gaffs do they?

IF there is going to be a remake/reboot, I'd rather it be in the style of the Rebuild of Evangelion . Subtle changes at first, but then let the story wander elsewhere while keeping to the same themes. Maybe Roy doesn't die when he's supposed to. Maybe the Zentreadi culture conflicts start sooner. Maybe Kamijun goes rouge some other time, or actually plays a bigger part in the battle over Earth. Maybe the order is rearranged, or maybe something new happens at the end.

Rather than a 'remake everything', remake parts of it. Trim here, but add there. Maybe put in another character to tip the balance of what's going on in the background (Since the Love Triangle MUST NOT be tampered with). Change the order of events. Let a character live. Kill off someone who lives the first time. All the while you still get new animation and perhaps re-interpretations of events to take advantage of new technology available.

And if you're celebrating all of Macross, maybe it can be something that ties together all the series made so far. *shrug*

Every now and again I feel compelled to come back here and find out how my first mod contributions are going. Really unusual, comparing how I (and my art!) was like back in 2004 to today. Though it's a shame to see that the lethargy and RL problems of the rest of the team finally caught up with them.

...And just as I've taught myself how to 3D model! It seems as though the Macross-ites managed to get most of the ships done already though, and I doubt anything I did would be of serious contribution even if the mod was still alive (aside from perhaps fixing up the horrid spaceships that I foisted on the team wayback when!).

At any rate I'm sad to see the mod finally succumb... unless there are embers still there?

It was fun while it lasted. Maybe someday it'll come back.

Nanashi was (To me anyway) the archivist for a ton of obscure Macross artwork and designs. He even claimed to have a design for a protoculture battlepod, cutting off my offer to create one for the team (this was back when the Prototculture/Supervision army was being considered for a 'third race', loooooooong before Macross Frontier).

Macross looks good, but it seems like the Zentreadi ships didn't age well :\

Hmm... All we need is Nanashi to come out of nowhere with obscure spaceship line art and the setup would be closer to complete, eh?

Lestat: I remember the Megaroad model from when I was working with you guys in DYRL. Good to see it closer to completion then it was back then

And yea, there was never a definitive view of the Megaroad class was there? Though was the Megaroad herself an exception to all Megaroads since, or were all future Megaroads patterned after the first?

I've been wondering when you'll come back around. Was wondering if you can lend some of your Macross Style to come up with some designs again. UN SPacy is really outnumbered on this one. Maybe some frigates to help balance out everything, Also yeah, the Meltrandi and Zentradi need some quick designs as well for resource collectors. We all know you have the Skills plus Shadow would love to chat with you about some designs he has. Hope you can help out.

I was under the impression the Macross Mod guys would mine the games and other apocryphal Macross works for ships to put into the mod. When I came onboard back in the day, I did the resource vessels because there wasn't anything on them really. The closest think to a resource mining vessel just some spidery thing hanging around in an asteroid field from a screenshot in Macross Plus. They asked me to flesh that out, too. I really wanted to do combat vessels, but like I said it appeared the team had already intended to mine from the games.

I suppose I could try my hand at re-doing some of those old, old ships from long ago, but pay in mind they'd be in DYRL? Style, since I'm not up to speed on everything Macross 7 and onward.

You'd probably find me easier on the Relicnews forums, since I'm frequently on that board. Of course over there (and everywhere else pretty much) my name's "Norsehound".