Killer Robot

Nice to know you think so. Maybe I'm just pertuirbed by the number of bloggers that seem to think she just stagnated. I actually think Ranka was developed just as much, maybe more so than Sheryl. The difference though was that Ranka's was much more subtle and introverted (though not as much as Alto's), whereas Sheryl's is so in your face that it's obvious. Heck, you could name entire episode arcs after whatever was happening with Sheryl. Not to mention the reading into (or refusal to do so) by fans. It also didn't help that they outright pissed on Ranka's development in 24, having her become a mere puppet. It's no wonder people ignored any strides she'd made (not to mention the vilifying of her leaving Frontier, which I'll never understand).

I don't think Ranka ending up briefly a puppet was so bad in itself: a protagonist being briefly maneuvered or controlled even to that extent isn't that unusual in anime/comics/fantastic genres in general, and it was really only for a matter of a few minutes of screentime...which got magnified by the cliffhanger ending having people wait for the next week to see her be freed. Still, it probably wouldn't have really made such an impact if not for that vilifying her leaving Frontier. That I understand as people having gotten too caught up in the "Vajra as faceless villains" thing. Clearly it was meant for the characters at that point to strongly and understandably think that they were facing off in a simple battle of survival against a mindless and irreconcilably alien enemy. I think viewers easily got into thinking of this as the objective rather than subjective truth and that the only way the series could end was a (rather unMacrosslike) straight-up beating down of the bad guys. They saw the human villains' role as being just trying to take personal advantage of a war that couldn't really be solved peacefully, while not noticing or dismissing how Ranka had been seeing something more complex in the enemy rather than just being fed up with how she was feeling manipulated. The cues were subtle and easy not to read as a viewer, compared to SDFM and Mac7 strongly telegraphing the (especially in the former) "really the aliens are people we can connect with" and (especially in the latter) "and even if we can it would be wrong to just slaughter them all while there's maybe a better way."

Granted, when it turned out that her attempt to reconcile things was another trap of the villains that added more complication. Still, all I don't understand is people who saw to the end and had it all explained, but still see it as a simple betrayal of humanity to genuine monsters. It's like if fans were still angry at Max for marrying Milia: "I can't believe he'd do that! Shacking up with one of the same squadron that killed Roy! Traitor!"

Hmm. I see what you mean, yes - focus is a good term. What I'm after with this is that the main plot of Frontier is about the characters: it takes place during a war they are all caught in, and they have roles that end up being central, but fundamentally it's a story that starts with how Alto, Ranka, and Sheryl cross paths, builds into the complexities of their relationship amidst the building conflict, and ends with the three finding a more stable position to develop from as they help guide the war to its final resolution. There's political intrigue and mecha action aplenty, but it's not misdirection when they push the love triangle as a central feature of the show. Even including the rest of the cast, while external events push the storyline the focus of what happens is consistently not about the fate of humanity/the fleet or the progress of the war but about the relationships and development of the characters. Contrast this with Macross 7, where it felt much more like the major characters were going out and being the war heroes in every conflict and the major conflict shaped around them, even though they themselves were little changed and interacted mostly on sitcom-like levels. Or even to the main plot of SDFM, which was heavily about character interaction and development but just as centrally was a plot-focused sci-fi story about first contact and the ultimate future of humanity in a way that Frontier wasn't and didn't really try to be, at least not in such a central way. In that sense Frontier has a lot more in common with Macross Plus or the last few episodes of SDFM, where there's a bad guy to defeat but really the important part is resolving things between the major characters.

As for Ranka developing, I think she certainly did. She started out as an outwardly ordinary girl with a lot of repressed trauma, she grew into a budding star, got overwhelmed and manipulated, then finally came through into being a more assured young adult. I think she grew less than Sheryl, or perhaps just had further to grow, but she definitely ended the series a much different person than she began it.

Ouch. Perhaps so, with the right prodding, though she'd hardly be the same. In fact, the same could be said about Sheryl, and it would be easier since she actually had next to no actual impact on the war itself. Heck, they're very similar characters in terms of development arcs, so they could be interchanged (probably because they squeezed Sheryl into some of Ranka's screentime from what I've heard). If Ranka was largely unnecessary, Sheryl was outright fanservice if we're talking solely about service to the plot. Frontier has quite possibly the least character driven story I've ever seen. I think Wilder drove more plot simply by stealing the Quarter than any of the leads did in whole episodes. It's mostly one big ride thanks to conspiracy.

I always got the opposite impression, that it was very character driven plot: just a character-driven plot against an external background. Frontier, much like original Macross, is fundamentally about the story of characters who are caught up in an ongoing war, rather than being the Great Heroes that personally decide the origins, progress, and endings of the war. There were long arguments whether Alto was really a war hero. There were the same about Hikaru: even where people decided one was and one wasn't it was a close sort of thing.

As for just replacing Sheryl? I suppose you could have done Ranka's ascent without Sheryl being there. Just the upcoming Miss Macross competition could have done it. But on the one hand, that would have made her even more a simple repeat of Minmay, and on the other hand, Sheryl really didn't have the same development arc. Ranka was a straight rise from middle class schoolgirl to big star, Minmay style. Sheryl started off as a celebrity in her prime, having been guided to stardom while thinking it was all her own fighting spirit that did it, then she fell, then she had to struggle for herself and prove her strength: not something that had been shown in a Macross story before. I wonder what she thought of Ranka being called a "Cinderella" when she was the one who had struggled up from the dirt, as far as she knew. Not to speak against Ranka here: I just don't think any of the three were expendable roles. They were very different people and were each different than anyone else in the cast,

and I think a plot without any one of them would have been a much different series.

Wasn't Sheryl adopted?

Grace seemed to imply to Sheryl that even her name was a lie while trying to shatter her worldview in episode 18, and a lot of viewers took it at face value; still, as Gubaba pointed out, it turned out she really was after all and Grace was misleading her once more.

I just wonder if Sheryl knew who her grandmother was. Obviously, she never knew Mao personally, what her work was, or that Ranka was her colleague's daughter, but if she was openly established as one of those Nomes it might explain why she was kept connected to the filming project even after the director decided not to use her song. Star power is an obvious reason, but star power with some arguable connection makes better promotion.

The design doesn't thrill me, but my problem with it is continuity based... (Why is a destroid not seen after 2008 suddenly showing up in 2059 with only minor cosmetic alterations? It'd be like having the U.S. Army suddenly deciding to re-adopt the M4 Sherman)

Given what destroids do, they might well be a sort of weapon that doesn't need totally reinvented every generation: aerodynamics, weight, and maneuverability aren't the big deal they are with VFs, after all. A Cheyenne II being basically the same frame with 50 years of upgrades to its weapons, armor, and component systems wouldn't really be stranger than the differences between the currently produced C-130J and the Hercules models made back in the 1950s.

I see your point.

The true main characters are Ranka & Sherly. Alto as important as any other named but secondary character. They're only there to give reason for Ranka & Sherly to do something. The so called love triange could have worked with a different existing secondary character.

That's just what I mean: it couldn't have worked with anyone else. No one else had the right personality to spark changes in Ranka and Sheryl's lives, and giving them those traits just would have meant turning someone else into Alto.

Taking Alto out would also mean reducing Sheryl to a bit part or a simple victim. (I know there's another thread already saying how she'd be better off that way, but that's another story.) While she did some inspiration/encouragement for Ranka herself, it was Alto who provided her with her first peer: someone her own age treating her neither with starstruck awe or professional politeness and intruiging her into finding some sort of normal life outside the spotlight. Past that, without Alto the series just doesn't have anyone who first and foremost loves to fly, and that feels strange in a Macross series especially that's trying to evoke the original. There are no shortage of aces, but even for Ozma piloting in itself feels like his (devoted)career rather than his dream, as it is to the Altos and Hikarus and Isamus of the franchise. Devoted protector, yes, but no one's seriously going to sing about how hard it is to get his mind out of the sky.

VFTF1 really has this one, I think. You could have made a Macross Frontier series without Alto, but it would have been a far different one. Alto wasn't my favorite character. I didn't really think Hikaru was all that captivating a protagonist either. For that matter, I have more gripes about Basara than the other two put together. But saying they weren't the characters I cared most about is a far cry from saying they could just be left out of the series and other people could be shuffled around to fit their parts.

For me Macross has always been less about the battles and more about the aftermath. Macross F's ending couldn't be arsed to care about it.

I can totally understand your point that Macross would have been far lesser without the coda. But don't single out Frontier's lack either. "End the last battle then run credits" has been the way of about every Macross project since SDFM, so it's hardly a unique flaw. Unless you're saying you hate all the sequels, and that's fair enough.

I agree that Macross F needed more space to tell its story. Just if it was me I would have added at least an episode's worth of material to the last two, and a few more to that episode 18-23 space where things were very busy and compressed. A coda wouldn't have been bad, but it wasn't make or break for me.

I understand the desire for a definitive "resolution" to the love triangle, but really, how can you extend that into another 5 to 10 episodes worth of story? I think Killerrobot's point is that because the triangle was given too much exposure in the series itself (as you said as well), what more can you do, without having it feel like it was dragged on? and since sheryl and ranka have become too close friends (definitely more close than Misa and Minmay ever were), any attempt to lengthen the love story between these three might end up either being too comedic or too melodramatic. think Kimagure Orange Road.

but that's just me. i've learned to accept the ending of MF. but maybe it's just because as a sheryl fan, i'm pretty much of the belief that alto had already chosen sheryl (by episode 24), and ranka just doesn't know enough to give up. hehe.

That's exactly what I meant. Episode 7 of SDFM left huge amounts to address: an assimilated alien population still learning human culture, a devastated Earth to rebuild, the question of who the Protoculture was and what happened to them, and the enormous question of what humanity should do after such a world-altering event of first alien contact. Next to that, Frontier is neatly sewn up given the best questions people have are "where exactly are the Galaxy survivors outside of those on Battle Galaxy itself?" and "who does Alto eventually end up with?"

Oddly, SDFM had Hikaru make a clear choice for the 27 ending, but then took it back so as to address the love triangle in more depth. I agree, the postwar arc was important, vital in fact to what Macross eventually became: just taking the first 27 episodes there was very little setup for future series, a lot less thought on the future of humanity, and the love triangle probably would have been swiftly forgotten by the fans since really it found its real spotlight in the last nine episodes. It definitely made SDFM a different and standout series, but it's a hard thing to replicate in a sequel: first contact with an alien race only happens once, it's hard to think of a change as big as humanity's decision to aggressively colonize space, and so on. The love triangle is something that could have been handled in the first part of the series if the writers had given it more priority, though, and that's exactly what happened in Frontier.

Relatedly, KOR really is a good comparison for the type of situation both in terms of the type of relationship and its importance through the series. It's a sharp contrast to SDFM where Misa and Minmay scarcely ever met each other much less had their own friendship, and really I'd say it's more like a sex-reversed take of the Macross Plus triangle before the horrible turn that drove the three apart. While I could have seen, for example, an ending where Ranka came back and realized she'd wanted Alto as a friend and supporter rather than a lover, but there just wasn't a feel to me that Alto should sensibly just come up and deciding there was a right girl for him and a wrong girl like Hikaru did.

I agree completely that the aftermath episodes made SDFM much much better, but i can't see how extending MF to show an aftermath could make the series better.

To my mind, the "big picture" theme of MF extended to understanding that the Vajra, no matter how alien-looking, could be intelligent creatures capable of communication. with ranka's explanation in episode 25, i think that settled the issue.

I think these are key points, on both counts. There's certainly a lot to be seen in the aftermath of this with the people of Frontier settling a new and alien world with the battered remnants of their fleet, the followup on the Galaxy conspiracy, etc. - on the other hand, while that's neat sci-fi and some extra story closure, it doesn't strike me as a Macross story or SK's style: it doesn't have anything like the Zentradi integration/rebellion issue in SDFM, or the laying down of the whole background of the Protoculture and the human expansion into the galaxy. Even the love triangle part needs less attention: the love triangle in SDFM was relatively backgrounded through the first part of the series and only was deeply explored postwar, wheras Frontier had it key through much of the series. I'm also one of the people that thought in Frontier the end decision was meaningfully unimportant: the big question in the love triangle was really about whether the three could all be alive and friends at the end, and that happened.

The Vajra, it's a simple thing: the series went and addressed the idea of aliens which were actually aliens rather than yet another Protoculture-designed cousin to humanity from elsewhere in the galaxy. Not that those are bad, but after SDFM, Macross II, and Macross 7 it's pretty well-mined territory, and so an encounter with the truly alien, exploited by the evil and warlike factions among humanity, gave an interesting new take.

I couldn't agree with you more. To me the Vajira were basically dumbed down versions of the Zentredi, playing almost the same role with none of its gravitas. Really Grace was a stand-in for Boldoza as the evil behind the curtain controlling the Vajira/Zentredi. The latter aren't evil themselves, just misunderstood and need to be reached by the power of culture or music. Yet what made SDF a great series was to show the aftermath of the final battle and the struggle of the zentredi (and humans) to pick up the pieces of their lives. Yeah its great that culture can save people and be a force for good, but war destroys lives and causes pain which must be healed. Transition is never easy, which SDF emphasizes at the end with the city ablaze, the Macross destroyed and Misa and Hikaru holding each other looking with hope for the future despite the huge challenges ahead of them. The ending of Frontier had this implausible fairy tale ending where the Vajira leave and people quickly rebuild their lives happily on this new planet. With the exception of the pro-forma acknowledgment of Mikhail's death and Klans loss, its a happy ending with green fields, blue skies and puffy white clouds.

In my mind it illustrates just how shallow Frontier was compared to SDF and why the series has started to stagnate over the years. I don't see it as others as a "refined macross" because it contains none of the depth of the original series. Its a simplistic macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested.

"Implausible fairy tale ending" paints a rather different image than I recall seeing in Frontier, is the issue. It's not like those green fields, blue skies, and puffy white clouds came from nowhere. It's not like after a big final battle in deep space the fleet made one more fold and arrived over a planet they hadn't seen before; it's not like the planet had taken apparently a huge pounding but when they came down and the smoke cleared it was all bright and sunny day again. Instead, it's the planet Leon had decided to invade because of the green fields and blue skies, and it only wasn't going to work because Grace was playing him as well as the heroes. When the battered and desperate fleet finally lands, the only twists are that it wasn't Leon in charge, that the greater trick was exposed, and that they were able to stop the villains by making contact with the "enemy" rather than destroying them. The planet was there and expected: it was all about getting there without everyone dying. Sure, there was a big, "yay, we're alive!" moment like nothing would ever go wrong again, but it was more like the first(episode 27) ending of SDFM that it referenced: the enormous battle is over, the overwhelming odds overcome; the hero has come to ground and saved the girl and....look, there's the Macross coming down to land, battered but shockingly mostly intact: all the characters we knew and cared about, save a couple cameos and those who died a half dozen episodes ago, are okay. Sure, the Earth was bombed out, but in Frontier the fleet took a lot of damage and casualties throughout: the Vajra planet would have made little sense to attack.

As for "a simplistic Macross which relies on a lot of amazing visuals to keep people interested," they made that already. It was called "Do You Remember Love?" and people by and large really liked it. I liked it too, but I appreciate that Frontier had more meat to it thanks to the longer format.

DAMMIT! They NEED to make a "Sheryl Nome Sings Fire Bomber" album NOW!!!!

All for it!

I really agree with Mr. March on this one. I had some annoyances with the playing up of cliches both ancient and modern at the start, but more often I found myself pleased by how they were flipped or subverted. Alto's girlish looks being called out in setting for one. The pineapple twist too, and the even greater joke on the audience that really Ozma was never a Roy tribute storywise in the first place: the story had a womanizing, overbearing, teasing senior to the protagonist from day one and everyone had just been thrown by the glasses and blue paint. The lolicon Klan look bugged me, but they at least managed to steer it into character development rather than just have someone look like a little girl for no apparent reason.

The Evangelion thing is one I noticed, and was watching for as I watched the series: it's the first Macross TV series since Evangelion and I expected to see some influence. There certainly was: on the down side, it did play heavy into the secret conspiracy thing. On the up side, I liked the secret conspiracy to some level because this is the first time I recall in a Macross series where a villain or antagonist wasn't clearly so on first meeting and where there was meaningful speculation over who the bad guys were. It added a fresh dimension to the series, though it wasn't done perfectly. What also felt borrowed from Evangelion was the theme of people only able to find their real strength through connection with others - the big difference of course being that Evangelion was a dark story about people who failed at that, and Frontier a more optimistic one about those who in the end succeeded. All in all, it wasn't an Evangelion clone like many mecha series of the past ten years have been, though: Frontier just is something made in a genre shaped by Evangelion just like SDFM was made in a genre shaped by Mobile Suit Gundam.

Dropped or unexplored plotlines too: this one I think is simpler to explain, though. Frontier was shorter than it needed to be. There was some stuff that can be called filler, but no more than some of SDFM and certainly less than much of Mac7: giving the whole plotline as written a full treatment would have been much easier if it had 5-10 more episodes to work with.

To answer azrael, it's a big difference going between watching a series marathon style and having to wait week by week: for example with BSG I started watching mostly through season 2, so watched a lot in quick succession, then was caught up so had to start waiting. Waiting is weird: depending on just how the plotline is going I might let things go a few weeks then catch up, or I might hang on things week by week. In Frontier's case, I started with the first 6 episodes and had fun. After that I'd watch them in no big hurry as they came out, sometimes waiting a week and catching up two episodes at a time. I still enjoyed it, but it wasn't urgently paced. Then for the last six episodes or so I was getting hooked, hurrying to download the next one the moment I could find a subbed torrent, to see what was coming next.

As for SDFM: it is dated. Don't get me wrong: I never saw it until 5-6 years ago, and I rewatched the whole thing last year, so it's still something I can easily enjoy. But not just the animation but also the storytelling mold is something now somewhat archaic and strange to see these days. On the flip side of that, it being an older piece today makes other things come out differently: Macross has lots and lots of early 80s anime stereotypical looks, cliches, fanservice approaches, and so on. It has a lot of truly original and innovative approaches, but if there had been mecha web forums when it came out I'm sure we'd see a lot of archived posts about how "That new Macross show is all a bunch of tired cliches and fanservice! Did you see the shower scene they tossed in with the 15 year old girl for no reason? And geez, all the pilots and crew are total mecha show stereotypes, except where they filled the bridge with a bunch of girls to cater to the horny fanboys," etc. To say nothing of how the archives here would look if this forum had been up when Macross 7 came out.

yup, it's one thing to have a very small object essentially falling down every time it takes a step but for a large multi ton machine to do it, it just puts a lot of unnecessary strain on the frame and mechanisms... which has a lot to do with why our large scale insect like robots tend to move very slowly, at least the ones that try to be stable. The ones that have abandoned the idea of stability can replicate the quickness though... but again, not ideal for a weapons platform.

Well, unless you could have a computer basically predict how the frame was going to fall and then auto correct the aim on the weapon even before the frame moved thereby creating a stable mount... err... or you could just have a more stable mount to begin with.

That's actually why six legged robots have gotten a lot of design attention, because with six legs you can always have three on the ground for a stable tripod. Four or two legs have to be controlled falls just because it's not feasible to make a walking mechanism that works otherwise. Even if you're not relying on constant stability, six legs have some advantages.

Insects are poorly suited for very large forms, but it's because of the particular way that their skeleton, muscles, and just as importantly oxygen distribution works. None of these are requirements for an insectile-looking robot, they're just how arthropod biology works.

I don't usually visit this particular forum so I only skimmed the thread, but have people really left out Jet Alone?

I grant, this might fall under the "deliberately lame" clause someone mentioned earlier.

Well, once those Raptors and Vipers start running out of fuel carrying people around the planet, there's no point in keeping them around. They can start scrapping them for materials. It might be nice to have a Raptor canopy as a cabin window.

Especially since no one would invent glass windows again for a good 148,000 years.

This hit the nail on the head for me. At the time of the original Macross gritty space operas inspired by Gundam were the trend. Not only is this much more appealing to me but it was also in my time, when I was young. This just isn`t my time and I failed to feel any connection to Macross Frontier. I guess its impossible to recreate the feeling of the original Macross in current times if you want it to make money and have mass appeal with today`s generation.

On the contrary, I much enjoy Macross for how it took how gritty Gundam space opera was the big new thing and often did a lot of things that would be expected there, but then just as much turned them around into something new or at least opposite the mold. I got much the same feel from Frontier, in classic or current cliches being recognized but then twisted around and subverted somehow.

I grant, sometimes Frontier felt like it was playing too much on the fanservice laden cliches of the 2000s teen anime it is an example of, but no more than Macross 7 played on the super mecha cliches of the 1990s kids' anime it was an example of, or for what I can tell of the original and how it fit into the cliches of its eras. I never saw any of them as a young and impressionable child though, so I don't have that level of pure nostalgia for new stuff to not measure up to either.

I always got the impression that the Marduk were another tampered with race, that came across the Zentradi, and like Earth defeated them with "Culture," but intead of cohabitating, inslaved them & stole their technology. The Aluse being their "Macross," also explaining their odd ties to religion.

That's much the impression I got too. Also, in DYRL the "culture" which defeated the Zentradi was not so much humanity's idea of life outside of combat(with music just as a symbol of it) but rather a dug-up Protoculture song just used to jog their genetic memories. In a DYRL sequel it wouldn't be as farfetched for a warrior race that knew no culture but battle music to beat a Zentradi fleet in much the same way humanity did.

One thing I thought was kind of stupid was how Chief frakked up the whole Resurrection download.

...

That's something I thought made perfect sense. What he saw was the cold-blooded murder of someone he loved which had been kept secret from him, never mind the strain on that love or what other people he'd felt feelings for. His not striking out in some way, even if it had been less severely, would have been the real shock.

What i really loved was the use of the classic Centurions. About time they paid off fully from Six's miniseries line about them still being around. Shame they were also CGI, but it was still awesome. One thing I've always loved about this show is the amount of subtle respect they show to the classic series for fans of it like myself.

I never even saw the old series, but seeing the old models actually show up was a cool thing. I agree, while a lot of fans of the old hated or ignored the new, it's good to see the new series respects its roots despite the many differences.

Poor guy, though.

* Thank God the black hole didn't come into play.

From what they said last week, it's not just a black hole but a naked singularity. I guess Sci-Fi didn't want them showing any more nudity.

I'm also finding it a little illogical for a human race with FTL technology willing to dump all their science and become farmers. After New Caprica, why would anyone think they're safe? How do they know

the freed toasters won't return to finish the job

What if the planet isn't habitable due to virus/allergy/bacteria? Yeah, it's touchy feel good, but it's not logical.

I'm not a fan of it, but sudden and simple Luddite twists and the idea that if we threw away all our tools we'd stop being mean are too common as sci-fi moral lessons for me to be surprised. What really got me was that after several seasons of every change of lifestyle or tactics leading to division, resentment, even outright rebellion, it felt weird to

On the other hand, the first two thirds were awesome and the very last part wrapped it around interestingly for me. And given that

Re: the 10 gigaton reaction missiles: they contain 24 small warheads (call it the ultimate multi-warhead missile) and are anti-fleet missiles (I did a double take when I read that. Usually these things are anti-air, anti-fighter, or anti-ship. But anti-fleet?! That's some serious muscle.)

Given that the reaction missiles that Valkyries could carry in SW1 were effective anti-ship weapons, I'd expect that capital ships would have options that were heavier yet. Granted, it's probably meant to hit multiple ships in tight formation, not unlike the main gun on a Macross or similar vessel, but it seems in keeping with general ship design there.

I'd guess they were using the antimatter reaction weapons rather than the nuclear reaction weapons? The 10 gigaton figure would make more sense then (and may actually be low-yield for an antimatter weapon).

Some internet research suggests that 10 gigatons would be on the order of 500 pounds of antimatter. Together with the 500 pounds of matter it's being collided with, note. You also have to contain the stuff stably, which is considerably more challenging than with conventional or nuclear explosives and so might mean the total warhead mass is significantly higher. You're not looking at a light weapon in any case.

Multiple bridges aren't unknown in real world warships in any case, and one of the scale of the Macross would have all the more reason. Especially outfitted with both ARMDs, there are hundreds of fighters to deal with apart from the combined ship itself. The difference between control of the ship and flight control has been raised: also, in the case of fleet operations a flagship might commonly have an "Admiral's bridge" for the admiral to use in fleet command, while the ship is actually controlled on a tactical level from the separate captain's bridge. On the other hand, Macross, like many sci-fi franchises, seems to have one officer serve both as admiral and captain of the flagship in fleet-based situations, so as to be less confusing to the audience.

No, no, no... They have to be naked otherwise their clothes would throw of the scale

Hmm. So that would make Battle Frontier almost exactly 1000 Misas long. Perhaps we should make that the official unit for use in that size thread, since it's obviously the intent of the original illustrators.