Brooklynwolf

Thanks, its an impressive figure when combined.

The light up head is a nice addition to this massive figure.

One more pic

To quote Russell Peters "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad...":D or a TF take on Attack on Titan. :

Oh man...Optimus is taking them on by himself??

Oh boy.....

...they're gonna need backup.

Do I spy Wheeljack in there?

Yessir!!

Came back from HK yesterday, and this is my haul

(Upside down, sigh...oh well)

Originally went there to pick up my 2nd 19F from HKcollectibles, then went toy shopping and got the others in the pic.

T'was a good day.

On the subject of the dog fights: I'm gonna continue gushing over Plus. the fact that it was hand drawn is a testament to how amazing the animators were back then, especially with the director on how he framed the action. They were able to convey a sense of speed whilst allowing the audience to truly see the valks and appreciate the action. It's all about framing and editing.

Someone bought up Michael bay, so I'm gonna try and use him as an example. When you compare the chase sequence of "The Rock" to "Bad Boys 2", it's like night and day. The Rocks chase sequence was just a jumbled mess of tight close ups of the driver with shaky cam, with the occasional tight close up of a car ramming into something...like, it was just boom boom boom. No build up to anything whatsoever. It had no excitement whatsoever. I loved the movie, but the chase was the films weakest element. Now we fast forward to BB2. Wow, what an immense improvement. You actually see the chaos. You see the cars. It was intense. There was excitement in the way it was framed and shot.

IMO, and this analogy will likely piss some off, but don't let it... The dogfight in Plus is BB2's chase sequence whereas Frontier's is The Rock's. With today's advancements in animation on all fronts, cel, CG, I thought i was gonna get kicked in the throat with awesome dog fights in frontier.

Well...It wasn't a kick. It was more of a nudge. It had some cool scenes...bit overall it was messy.

Here's how I would qualify it: For DYRL, the film works as a stand alone movie. Sure, you can say "it would work better if there was a true act 1" or something along those lines and it's true but there's nothing omitted from the story so entirely that you can't understand the events, can't appreciate the characters, or don't feel like there's some sort of a conflict and resolution. I would say that anyone totally lost by the way the story just jumps in isn't paying very close attention. It is quite possible that people never having seen Macross would say DYRL is good if not a bit hurried in its pacing. Of course people who know Macross will generally think DYRL is very good.

For the Mac F movies, having a familiarity with the show is a requirement. Not having seen the show will likely lead to a healthy contempt of the movies. Having seen the show will lead to slightly less contempt.

Exactly!! Right on the target!!

Except for the less contempt thing. Still can't accept F series ending, therefore won't watch it until the next series has a satisfying closure, then I'll backtrack.

here you go!

Awesome haul! Recent purchases? And where from? I'd like to expand my collection by adding some classics to it.

I think that's the best advice I can offer; just be aware of what you're getting into and be self aware of what you want out of Macross. From the sounds of things, you and I may be on the same page as far as our assessment of the franchise. For me, I adore the art, culture and innovation of Macross when at it's most entertaining. Macross hasn't been artistically/culturally relevant for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed for what it is. I agree Macross was at its best when realizing its full potential (IMO that was SDFM, Flashback 2012, DYRL, and Macross Plus). But the later Macross is still rich enough to offer some drama, some laughs, some excitement and interesting world building and great mechanical design. Even Macross 7 was an interesting failure, which is better than mediocrity. IMO, the Macross Frontier TV series is the closest there has been to capturing the magic of early Macross since Macross Plus. There's still lots to love about Macross, so long as you accept it for what it is NOW...and so long as you personally make peace with that.Now believe me, I sympathize with you as a Macross fan that is also a critical thinker. You will invariably encounter hostility from some fans who seem incapable of reconciling those of us that enjoy Macross while compartmentalizing the shortcomings of the franchise. It sounds absurd, but even I have been accused of not being a "real" Macross fan because of my critical opinions. Typical internet extremism; love what I love with as much love or you are a traitor, LOL! Again, I'd say just treat the franchise fairly and the next time you watch Macross, use subtitles responsibly, hahahaa

Well said my man. Couldn't agree with you more.

However, At this moment...I can't make peace with frontier. Even with kyps picture of Sheryl reuniting with alto...it's just not enough for me to give the series a chance...because that pic's canon..icity(I'm making up words) is still up in the air (although I could do what kyp did and say eff it, it IS CANON), also I don't know which one is more canon-er??? the series or the movies lol?

IF shoji somehow pulls all the stops and miraculously surprises the **** outta me and brings back the spirit (IMO) of what made macross one of my beloved franchises...then for sure, I'll go through the Frontier series. Hell, I'll go through zero,while I'm at it. It's weird, I know... and frustrating. It is a stubborn approach to it. But personally, i can't and won't accept unresolved endings over and over again. Not meant to be a line drawn in the sand...but the day shoji gives me a more crowd pleasing finale is the day I make peace with the shows I missed. It's a weird principle I'm living by lol.

And dude...being accused of not being a "real" fan is just....*jackie chan mind blow jpg*. Fortunately I haven't come across that as of yet, and hope I never do. Nothing is more annoying than a supposed "super fan" covering his ears and willfully being ignorant to fair, legit criticisms.

Straight up, I'm not a teacher at a day care center. I'm not here to take care of anyone's feelings. We're all adults. As long as our stance on certain issues don't involve anyone's mothers, we should be able to speak our minds. As long as the words we say hold substance, we should be as passionate as they are. They can't handle that? Well, not my problem. Instead of pointing fingers claiming someone has sullied these holy grounds...perhaps they should take a step back and reevaluate their life.

if the people I've been talking to here in this thread are anything to go by...I shouldn't worry about a thing. Granted I haven't met EVERYONE at MW yet...but I ain't worried or intimidated...'cause so far, everyone here rocks hard.

I guess the lesson learned here is really, to each their own and agree to disagree. I, and others, understand what you were getting at with your frustrations and I'm happy that cooler heads prevailed.

To those that accused you of coming on a bit strong when you started the thread, dude... come on. What otaku hasn't been at that level at one point or another??? It was a cry for help so help a brutha out instead of calling them an "a**hole" or "stupid." PS: implying it is just as bad as flat out saying it.

With the announcement of the new TV series (that's for real, right?), let's hope the good guy get's the girl or at least chooses one this time! Or at least dumps both of them for a Myria clone because MEEEEEEOW!

Lol, word. I'm happy to have been able to have a meaningful conversation with everyone here. Very inviting atmosphere...with a little stumble at the beginning though hehe.

I desperately wish the next series would give me a story AND conclusion that's more in tune with DYRL and Plus. I just wanna relive the joy and excitement I once had with the franchise. If shoji decides to yet again fulfill his desire of "leaving this up to your imagination"...well, shoji, i am disappoint. I'll just stick with the toys...again. Not that it's a bad thing, those always kick ass.

Sometimes you just feel like watching f*cked up endings because, Old Boy. (Korean version of course ) No need to jump down anyone's throat because, in the end, we all have different tastes and opinions and listening to each other might help open different interpretations of what you're into and it can help clear up misinterpretations too. Trust me, I've met plenty of otaku that despise the Eva franchise.

The Ninja Scroll follow-up was pretty lame and I lasted halfway through the first episode.

Wings of Honeamise is so underrated and often forgotten- easily in my top 10 of all time.

...and no, it doesn't pick up...at all...in case you were wondering.

The thing with WoH was that it was so unlike many other anime at the time. It wasn't action packed. The trailers would have you believe otherwise. It wasn't exciting in the sense that since it was anime, you'd expect to see some crazy ****....but nope. It was all about some dude that wanted to go to space. It had a great story followed with great animation. One of my faves.

And Old Boy....that's a movie that definitely kicks you in the face and leaves a footprint on your tongue. Heavy heavy ****. And it's also another one of my faves.

That's another example of a finale that makes sense to me. It was bleak, but I can get behind bleak endings such as OB, only because it appropriately matched the tone from the rest of the movie. Lol so I hope that clears up my "need for happy, resolved endings"...I like effed up endings as much as the next guy, but it just needs to gel with the movie itself. Also, it can't be overused.

Lol man I'm beginning to sound like a broken record player. Apologies to everyone.

My love for Eva is second only to my love for Macross. That being said, I 100% acknowledge that it's not for everyone. I absolutely loved the road it took and the ending that Anno gave it. I've read every wiki and interview there is on why it went down the way it went down and I've heard/read about the studio budget getting screwed and his mental issues at the time of the production. I get why some fans called BS on it (everyone wanted the epic battle that they got with the movie End of Evangelion) but my reaction was quite the opposite. I thought the OG ending was fascinating and brilliant considering the budget and timeline he had to work with to end the series. Believe me, I can go on forever defending Eva.

Gundam Wing seemed to have a bit too much screaming and pouting for my taste.

Macross 7 was totally meh for me and I thought that was the end of it, until Plus came out. I was honestly out of anime at that point, before that the last anime I watched was Gunbuster. Plus got me back into the anime game. I have to give credit to Manga Entertainment because I ate up all of their releases that year from Ninja Scroll to Wings of Honeamise.

I found Frontier on a now dead site called Studio 39 or something like that after finishing Death Note. At that time it was only the pilot that was available online and I crapped my pants. I watched it over and over and I hunted down Megumi Nakajima's cover of Oboete Imasuka in the end credits. I ended up getting a Malaysian DVD set of the series run and the subtitles where enough to get me through it. To me, Frontiere was a love letter to everything I love about the Macross franchise and it's second only to SDFM/DYRL (those two just count as one whole to me). The music, the valks, the romance; I was in love with Frontier. My now wife, laughed her ass off when she witnessed me lose my crap over the debut of Ozma's valk.

But my wife too shares your frustration with the "open ended" endings but it didn't sour her enjoyment or love of the series.

It's funny to me but it goes to show how old I am when I run into "kids" who love Frontier but don't really know who Minmay is. That blows my mind.

I made sure my 12 year old son watched Macross and DYRL before Frontier and he had the same reaction to the nods that Frontier gave to it's predecessors from the Ranka rescue to the SMS pilots doing Isamu's hand thing, ie. he spazzed with enjoyment. He pretty much hated Zero except for the dogfights. Plus kinda weirded him out. I don't know if I can put him through 7 because I didn't like it- except for the Max/Mirya stuff.

Yeah that's cool that you liked, or even loved EVAs finale. I respect that. I'm glad you didn't jump down my throat telling me "you don't know jack **** about EVA". I personally just don't like finales that are too experimental or...obscure, know what I mean?

It's awesome you mentioned ninja scroll and wings of honeamise! Both were...no, are kickass movies.

Kinda bummed with the ninja scroll follow up. So bummed, I don't even remember its name.

Yeah, the Kenshin OVA. Real tear-jerker that one. :-)

I was wondering though, would your description of a "finite" ending include an ending where everybody dies? Would you be satisfied with such an ending?

I heard that Yoshiyuki Tomino's Space Runaway Ideon has such an ending. I can't imagine myself getting emotionally invested in a series only to have everyone die. (Tomino has somewhat of a reputation for killing off characters left and right).

Also, what did you think about the original Neon Genesis Evangelion series' ending? That really had my brains in a fit. Good thing Hideaki Anno came up with the movies to better tie up the "loose ends" that the series left. He even went to far as to include a scene in The End of Evangelion, where a monitor kept repeating the words "korosu!" (I'll kill you!) which was the content of an actual email that a frustrated Japanese fan sent him after the end of the series. (You know the ending is that bad if even your Japanese fans send you hate mail. :-D)

Raxephon was similar to Evangelion in many ways, but the series ending (though similarly as cataclysmic) ended in a more positive note.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Japanese anime have some pretty "way out there" ways of ending the story. Denouement is not always a given. Sometimes the ending leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. But that too is part of the Japanese psyche that "the bitter goes well with the sweet" or rather, "the bitter elevates the sweetness". Kind of like eating sweet mochi with macha green tea. Not everyone is into that kind of confluence though. I guess it's a cultivated taste.

I do have to agree with some of the others here that watching Japanese anime without some sort of translation guide (i.e. subtitles) is like watching a movie in mute. Sure you can make some sense out of the storyline by what is happening visually, but a lot of the nuance is lost (and the Japanese are masters at nuance) and you'll definitely find yourself scratching your head at the end.

I honestly think you should at least watch the Macross F series and the movies again with subtitles. There are a lot of hidden nods to Macross fans in both that are worth looking into. :-)

A finite ending where everybody dies? Honestly, no, I wouldn't be ok with such an ending, but if done in a way that's not for shock value and fits the theme of the story? Sure. It would fall under the "grim...but acceptable" category for me.

Disclosure time...I didn't finish EVA. Does that put my anime credentials into question?

I never got into it because of it's over exposure. It was EVERYWHERE. Everyone I knew and their mothers were like "OMG EVA". It turned me off from it because at that time, my other fav anime were overshadowed by the typhoon that was Evangelion. Same goes for gundam wing. I was like...but what about macross?? And of course, many were like "macro wut?"

That's not to say I didn't give it a shot back then. I did watch a few episodes, but it really didn't grab me. So, I let it pass me by. I was rooting for macross 7 at the time, the underdog. Then dynamite happened....

Anyway...I heard rumblings about EVAs finale. Complete head scratcher. I Wikied it not two days ago, and once again, I feel like it's another failed attempt by another storyteller to "elevate" the medium. It's almost as if he thinks he's above it all and has convinced himself that his ending or whatever the hell you wanna call that was "smart, provocative!" I KNOW I'm not the only one that's bothered by that ending. There was so much backlash about it that even I, a non fan, got wind of.

(EVA fans, these are just MY opinions ok? Let's not tread down that road again lol.)

That wiki article gave me a lot of insight as to what led the creator down that path. It's...interesting to say the least. I find it amusing that even the voice actors thought he was weird and didn't understand what he was trying do or say in regards to the finale.

I dunno, IMO, I feel as if those that loved the ending to EVA are kind of in denial. Say one person that decided "wow, what a daring way to end this popular series. It's provocative, edgy, novel, different! Whoever fails to see it's brilliance fails in life!!"...then the next person who still doesn't quite get or liked the ending didn't want to "appear" like he didn't get the ending jumps on the bandwagon. So that little group that defended the finale eventually snowballed into an army and took a life of its own and became a narrative onto itself. (All MY OPINION)

I didn't get the ending. Initially I thought it was another mecha anime that once again starred an unassuming youth piloting a robot...little did I know it would become an anime about the human psyche. People can say EVA is beyond my comprehension...fine, whatever. A deconstruction on the genre? Cool. But if I wanna learn about the human psyche, I'll register for a class for it. I just wanna watch robots in action with a cool, simple storyline with characters that don't masturbate over a comatose "love interest". That's just me.

And I agree with your "bitter sweet" analogy. Lol but like I mentioned before, I love steak. A perfectly cooked, perfectly seasoned dry aged rib eye is an euphoric experience. But having it so frequently, it loses it's impact....not to mention dangerous to your health, but you know what I mean.

I used my wife as a sample audience. She basically hates anime though she always wants to cosplay, it's weird. Any way, she gave DYRL a 'that wasn't bad' and the MacF a 'you owe me for making me sit through that'. I can understand the feeling that you're hopping into act 2 in DYRL though, but the bridge banter fills you in.

My buddy did something similar. He showed this chick he was seeing DYRL, M+, and then frontier.

Breakdown of what she said:

Loved DYRL.

Liked M+

Confused with frontier, therefore, didn't like it.

As far as I'm aware it's cannon. And if it's not, screw it, it's cannon in my mind, damn it!

Honestly, this does take a bit of the sting away.

But why couldn't it be included in the ending itself? Oh that's right! Shoji wants us to "think"....

Sigh....

Hello Brooklynwolf! Welcome to MW! I acknowledge your passion for Macross and anime in general and would like to throw in my own observations about the ending of the Macross F Movie.

The song that Sheryl and Ranka were singing during the final battle is titled "Sayonara no Tsubasa" (translated: Wings of Goodbye), which is the same title of the second movie. The lyrics of the song essentially talks about the Norse legend of the Valkyrie, which are the winged female warriors who come down to escort fallen warriors who were deemed worthy of entry into Valhalla. I guess Kawamori-san was trying to play a bit into this legend by having the Queen Vajra pick up Alto who was a "fallen warrior" of sorts (he was about face death by heavy quantum beams from the NUNS and SMS fleet). I guess the Vajra found him worthy of being rescued and essentially accepted into Vajra society.

You could also say that Sheryl and Ranka were the "valkyrie" who lifted everyone up from the battlefield with their song (they did get spiritual wings when they sang the song). Also, Alto also called them his "wings" (i.e. his inspiration) in the last episode of the Macross Frontier series.

A lot of Kawamori-san's insights on the movie's storyline was shared in the various interviews on the special features disc of the Macross Frontier Shudista (Shooting Star) Blu Ray box, although these are all in Japanese. I was only able to understand a bit with my rudimentary Nihongo. You can probably find a transcript of these somewhere online.

One thing I've learned from being an Otaku is that the Japanese are romantically tragic. The Movie's ending is very Japanese in this sense. Will Alto and Sheryl ever end up together? In the ending, Ranka says that she is confident that Sheryl will one day be woken up from her sleep (coma) by her prince.

I think both the Mac F Series and Movies were great. The latter is more spiritual in its final theme (something that Kawamori-san also explored in Macross Zero), and thus more complex in its interpretation, IMHO.

That being said, my wife hated the ending of the series and the movies. The former because Alto did not choose between the two girls, and the latter because my wife hates Sheryl. :-P She also felt sorry for Ranka for having lost her real brother Brera in the movies, just as he freed himself from Macross Galaxy's control implant. So yeah, I understand that not everyone can be satisfied with such endings. :-)

Thanks for your input man. While it's awesome you shared that with me...it still doesn't sit well with me.

It's cool that shoji wanted to inject a deeper meaning into this particular ending...however I can't help but feel "wow, how convenient, out of all other myths, legends and themes, he so happened to be inspired by THIS one".

Once again, I'm really not looking for more reasons to hate on either the man and his choices, nor the show itself. I just want variety in a beloved franchise and it's "conclusions". If zero had a more crowd pleasing ending, and then frontiers ending stayed the way as is...I am positive that I would be more forgiving than I am right now. I love steak, but I can't have it every night.

Also, I am aware of Japan's love for romantically tragic, or star crossed lovers and what have you. That's why we see it so much in their fiction. I DO see it's merits and can occasionally enjoy it from time to time. One of my favorites back in the day was the ruroni kenshin prequel OVA. Doesn't get more tragic than that (actually it can, but it was damn rough on my heart). If it was just a stand alone piece and the original tv series/manga didn't exist, I would still be haunted by the ending, in a good way.

The story for frontier can be amaze-balls for all I care. I just don't think I can bring myself to watch it, knowing how it ends. I just want a conclusion that is finite. Call me stubborn, ignorant or whatever. I've seen enough anime (I frigging grew up on it) in my life time to be officially jaded on their story telling tropes. Am I losing out on potentially life changing stories? Absolutely. But I choose to not sit through 20+ episodes of a story only to imagine the ending. ESPECIALLY when it happens again and again and again and again...if I wanted to imagine something, I'll just day dream.

Thanks again for contributing man, if I wasn't so against shoji's consistent use of "romantically tragic" endings, honestly it would've blew my mind.

Well the next review I put up will show a toy that is falling apart after a couple reviews so that should make you feel pretty good about your decision not to transform them! I'm waiting on a buddy to ship me my 19 still (along with a bunch of other stuff). I was moving for a few months and since then he's been crazy busy so my stuff is stuck in Japan. That will definitely be the first review I do when that box arrives.

....oh boy...that's not very good. Any hints to what it is? If not, when should we expect it?

As for the yf-19...that's sucks man. Big time. Been looking forward to it for a loooong time.

As I recall, it didn't recycle as much as the Plus movie but yes, I'm sure some of the animation was lifted from the show to save a couple bucks (which were then spent on overly elaborate musical numbers).

If they went all out and pulled a DYRL full blown movie like how you suggested...IMO it probably would've been a much tighter story.

Btw, off topic for a sec...your vid reviews, tutorials and articles are awesome man. In depth and very thorough. I don't have the balls to transform my valks for fearing of breaking them, so I enjoy them vicariously through your vids lol. You rock bro.

And where is my arcadia yf-19 review man?!

I think it should have been ONE two hour long movie and it should have begun with Frontier showing up to save Galaxy and taking on a bunch of Galaxy refugees (Galaxy could have been attacked while Sheryl was performing on Galaxy). Then Sheryl gives a concert as a thank you with Ranka as the opening act. Ranka struggles and Alto and Sheryl team up to help her out. Later you see that Galaxy saw they were losing their quest to control the Vajra but were very close so they set things up so Frontier would be there to rescue them and they would then do a coup of Frontier and continue their efforts. Leon and the president should have had their plot line dropped entirely. Once the coup begins everyone believes Sheryl was in on it and feels betrayed but Sheryl finds some way of helping SMS out to regain their trust. Luca should have been less of a whiz and the prison break scene goes away. Hijacked Frontier then tries to control the Vajra but SMS with help from UN Spacy saves the day. Michael dies. Brera dies (screw that guy). Alto can still disappear at the end.

To my understanding, wasn't the bulk of the 1st frontier movie recycled from the series similar to plus?

HA!

You missed out on a lot more than just the excitement of a new item coming out- and if you want to talk about missed expectations try going through some of those Yamato and early Bandai Macross Frontier releases.

But yeah, lots more fun to be had in the Toy section.-b.

I had read through some of those threads. My god man...bandai done goofed with the V1 releases!

It kinda sucks I was late to the game...however the bright side is I was fortunate enough to not be boned by their V1 toys. Epic blunder on bandais end.

They are lucky as **** that early adopters were so forgiving and still picked up the renewals. I mean, it wasn't like releasing a patch or update for a game for crying out loud! Mind boggling.

I do have to say, that the changing of major elements between the movie and the series are very annoying.

The whole "this is Hollywoods version of the story" way of telling Macross is starting to get old.

Just take the easy parts that are annoying to deal with

TV:

Michael dies

Sherly's V-type infection is moved into her gut by Ranka, therefor saving Sheryl

Alto chooses to fly instead of a smoking hot pop singer who loves him.

Bobby never gets Ozma

Movie:

Michael lives

Sherly's V-type infection puts her in a coma

Alto chooses Sheryl at the moment he lands on the queens hand (sense non existent.)

Ozma will always be a bad ass, he gets Cathy in both versions. Because Ozma.

It get's tired some to wait to find out what the "Official" cannon line becomes.

I wish that they'd be less about OVA's with the same characters. Just make one damn

show, that doesn't second guess what the previous does.

I mean, going back to the earlier series I.e. SDF, DYRL, MPOVA, MP movie ed...they made changes due to run time or took things out because they served no purpose within the context of the movie versions...but at least the core was still there! Major events from the series remained intact in the movie versions, or at the very least, retold while retaining the original intent. I mean, having Michael live is almost like keeping focker alive in DYRL, or rather than have guld heroically sacrifice himself to stop the ghost, he doesn't. Complete head scratcher. Was Michael THAT popular and was allowed to live due to fan backlash? And I take it that ozma's badassery remained unchanged right? He was pretty badass in the films.

IMO, that goes beyond retelling a story. It's downright retconning. And based on some answers here, there's no true answer as to which one is more...canon..er....

I'm not looking for more reasons to hate frontier. It's just...bwuhuh? What?

No offense given, none taken.

And yes I've felt passionately (in one way or the other) about many movies, books, etc. - but one thing I've learned when trying to communicate with others is that often times it's not what I say, but how I say it. So regardless of subject matter it's a good lesson (for lack of a better term) to remember and one I have to remind myself of daily - especially if the communication is non-verbal and not face-to-face.

Welcome to the forums. If you're also a "toy" guy then I'll probably see you more in that section of the forum as that's my main interest as well (though I do love DYRL, Macross Plus, Frontier (TV and movie) enough to peak my head in here every now and again).

-b.

Suggestion noted.

Yes I am definitely a toy guy haha. Ever since I started collecting valks again, I actually went through 3 year old threads just to get a sense of the excitement I missed out on. Yamato's releases, arcadia, bandais renewals and yf-29 series...but let's leave that for the toy section hehe.

And thanks, it's good to be here.

Not really, from what little I know it was from the Sheryl Nome final visual collection, depicting her waking up from her coma and finding that Alto had returned. So, there's your ending, and that's how I personally see it as well, so I don't feel quite as bad about the movie's ending.

Now that's something that would've made this pill easier to consume. So for further clarification...the visual collection is...cannon yes?

It's not quite as ambiguous as the way i probably made it sound. One of the quirks of the way japanese language works. You could translate it as something like "Sherryl, I Love-" with the rest cut off, but enough of the sentence spat out to at least know what was intended to be conveyed.

But since that's not the part of the ending that bothered me personally, and since that's far from my only complaint about the films, I wouldn't say the ambiguity itself is what I find bothersome. (Characterization that's been simplified to the point of outright flandarization for some of the characters is probably the top of my personal list of grievences) The films were rushed. Do You Remember Love simplified the storyline too, but apart from a dip in the middle, it was clever enough to still convey the point to the original series, and my opinion on the frontier films is that they just fail to do that. They made an ambitious attempt, but it just fell short to me, with an ending (ambiguous or not) that I just found overall unsatisfying being the topper.

I think the original series simple (by no means an insult) storyline was what allowed DYRL to work as a 2 hr movie.

Since I haven't seen the frontier series, i can't comment too much on whether things were rushed or not. The first movie did seem unrefined, whereas the 2nd felt better in terms of a 3 act structure; beginning, middle and end.

LOL, haven't seen one of these topics in a while :)I'm with Kaneda on this one; a beligerent post leads to other beligerent posts. You're clearly aware, so you knew what you were getting into posting an extreme criticism of a Macross anime on a Macross message board filled with Macross fans. The heated replies were actually far milder than they could have been.I can understand fans advising you to view the Macross Frontier films with some proper subtitles so you could at least understand what was going on. However, based on what you've posted about your broader thoughts on popular culture, movies, TV and anime specifically, IMO you were never going to like the movies anyway. Watching them without subtitles probably only made a bad situation much worse, which probably explains your frustrated post. I'm surprised you even made it to the second film. Now, it's possible talking about the movies here and then perhaps sometime later deciding to watch them again in subtitles might warm you to the movies. But if you hate the Frontier films this much now, it's unlikely you'll ever be a fan. At best, your opinions may cool. I'd say try some other Macross instead; there's plenty to enjoy.Also - while the Macross Frontier movies are a bad example - I'd say open your mind and broaden your horizons a little. Stop defining all entertainment by some rigid demand that every story you watch wrap up in a tidy, facile little bow that's easy to digest. There is just as much of that brand of colorless entertainment that lacks merit as there is joyful entertainment that truly statisfies. Expecting this same convenient moderation in all entertainment - regardless of theme, subject or style - is an unrealistic demand that will prevent you from enjoying an entire world of excellent entertainment that is as good (at odd times, perhaps even better) than the conventional fare that caters to safer and more mundane desires.Oh, and welcome to the forums, hahahaha

First off, thanks for welcoming me. I am having fun talking to others about a franchise I adore, as well as browsing the toys threads.

Secondly...I was aware my initial post wasn't gonna be a great way to introduce myself. But I had confidence that there would be those, such as yourself, that can tell I'm NOT insulting anyone. Like I said in my last post...if people got offended, not my problem.

Finally, dude, I had no idea what I was getting myself into with the movies. Had I known before hand, I would've either just skipped it entirely, or still watched it just for Valkyrie action. As for getting into other things macross? Well, I'll still have DYRL and plus. Classics never die.

And I'm not entirely sure you read through my replies. Granted I'm not expecting you to, since I have written A LOT. But my horizons are pretty broad. I'll try and sum up what I said earlier. I do enjoy the occasional cold ending, cliff hanger, mind ****, unresolved loose end type finales. I honestly do. But there's a time and place for that and shouldn't be used EVERYTIME. It's lazy, uncreative and it loses it's impact. It's like having Godzilla show up every 3 mins. Eventually his appearance won't have that "holy s***" moment half way through the movie. These endings are a story telling device that should be used to service the story, not thrown in there for shock value or "just because". If a director like say...Spielberg, who definitely has his own style and has plenty of director trademarks, relied on the same story trope in EVERY SINGLE MOVIE he directs, it'll get old, boring and show he hadn't grown as a storyteller. It's not some rigid demand or whatever it is you may think I have, it's just common sense.

I mean, there are those that defend every decision shoji makes...ok, that's fine. I have a great amount of respect for the guy too, but I'm not gonna pretend that everything he touches is gold. I did that once with George Lucas when he made the prequels...but then I grew up and realized just how awful the PT truly was.

I do feel excitement for the next series...but that's more for the Valkyrie designs, not so much for the story...considering how the last few series went. So I'm gonna wiki the ending and if it's another unreosolved ending, I'm gonna pass once again. Yeah. No big loss on your end, i know. I'll just rewatch DYRL and Plus. IMO, THAT was some quality stuff.

Hard for me to understand the initial, fairly passionate/negative response to the ending of Frontier Movies, watched with or without sound.

Granted I wasn't a fan of the movie endings either and as such I tend to gravitate more towards the TV series for what I like about Frontier as an entry in the Macross universe, but it never occurred to me to lash out or to call the movies crap.

And IMHO the first post set the tone for the early responses;

W.T.F...

Can someone please explain to me wtf happened to alto? Was it necessary for him to disappear? Did they At any point in both movies foreshadow that?!? OMG I can't believe I sat through this crap.

My friend warned me that I should just stick to the tv series. Boy...I should've listened. OMG wtf???.

Edited by Brooklynwolf, Yesterday, 10:53 AM.

Even if one was inclined to agree, at a high level that the Macross Frontier movies were lacking they may have steered clear of the topic.

Very happy to see that cooler heads prevailed, especially since it may be, or was, worth discussing why the movie ending was left so...open to interpretation.

-b.

Ever walk out of a movie theater feeling utter disgust and blood boiling rage? And then say out loud to a friend "wtf did we just watch? I want my money back!"

If not, then, I don't know what to say. I'm sure others here have. I mean...I KNOW I'm not the only that has walked out of a theater and felt the urge to take a hot shower to scrub away the experience of watching a horrible movie. You may not have felt the way I did about frontier, but I sure as hell did.

And no offense to you, but if people mistook my "lashing out" at the movie as an insult to them...well, that's their problem, not mine. I wasn't insulting anyone nor was I insulting their family. I've mentioned this before, if I straight up said "whoever liked this is a moron", then I shouldn't be confused as to why folks would treat me rudely.

And if you've been following this thread, have I not been having a calm conversation with other members? Lol you make it sound like I'm a raging beast trying to bring the walls down around us and the cool members here are keeping me in check. C'mon man. And it's thanks to those that DID have a clue as to what I was going through are we all able to keep this going. And I have in fact gained a clearer answer to not just frontiers ending, but other things as well.

Should you or anyone start a topic bashing the **** out of something I liked, I wouldn't act like a jerk and would try to see why it is you felt that way. But if you're rude and start making comments about my personal life...well, I'd either respond in the same way or I'd just ignore you.

Not meant to be an insult, but there are people that are way too sensitive when it comes down to things that, ultimately, have no connection to their personal life. Instead of strapping into a valk and blasting all those missiles, they should take a moment to read what is actually being said. Ironically, some felt I judged the movie too rashly...didn't they do the same thing themselves and judge me?

's probably not a good decision, on balance... better to kill the a-holes with kindness and let the moderators mop up. It has the added benefit of making you look more reasonable than them.

Point taken. I usually do ignore them. Sometimes though, you just can't help yourself haha.

Just going on my own experience with foreign films in... five languages now(?)... that's actually pretty rare. You can usually get the most basic level of the movie, but in order to really "get it", you need to at least be able to understand what people are saying. Not TOO much, because sometimes that can ruin the movie via bilingual bonus (like how Iron Man has some villains explain the whole plot at the start and the audience is expected not to get it because they're not speaking English).

Oh that goes a/o saying that in order to truly get a film, you have to view it in a format you understand. The foreign films I watched and was satisfied with, I always find a subbed version of them and rewatch it so I can appreciate EVERY thing about it.

Personally, I've always been fine with endings that don't explain everything... so long as there's a feeling of closure about the whole affair, or at least the feeling that these characters have their own lives and their story goes on after our brief window into it ends.

Likewise...when it's done properly though. It can't be slapped on like duct tape.

Western audiences, I think, are a little conditioned by sitcoms and comic books to expect stories to just go on and on and on... and that the conclusion has to be some big showy climax that wraps everything up and lets the cast quietly f-off to somewhere else and either deal with the consequences or live happily ever after. Done well, that kind of ending can be very satisfying. More often than not, that kind of ending is done poorly and feels like a cop-out (e.g. the Battlestar Galactica reboot, or, gods forbid, Lost... because we certainly were).

One ending in recent memory that drew quite a bit of controversy was the sopranos. That ending I liked. Could journeys "don't stop believing" have anything to do with it? Lol probably. But the way the show was designed, the themes, motifs and overall tone and structure made the finale feel....appropriate. Like I wasn't pissed. It was more like...wow.

Ending a story takes just as much, if not more, writing chops than starting one does... because you NEED that closure. To draw on some of my favorite titles as examples, you can have good endings that wrap up every little detail of the plot (like Outlaw Star or the anime "gecko ending" for Soul Eater), or ones that leave you hanging with the feeling of some greater mystery denied or a that your cast is going to need some time to cope with the consequences of their actions (like the endings of Big O or Needless). Then we've got the bad endings that either get so bogged down in obsessive tying-up of loose ends that the ending is a train wreck (the second season of Code Geass) or so unsatisfying and abrupt that you have to ask yourself "Did I just read/see that?" (like the ending of the manga version of Soul Eater). Macross usually ends up on the good side of things, whether they've neatly tied up the loose ends in the story with the feeling that it's very much over (Macross Plus) or the feeling that "this adventure is over, but their story is only just beginning" (like Macross Frontier's). The very worst offenders are the ones that reach a neat, logical ending and then just forget to stop... the most blatant offender that leaps to mind being Bleach, which has done that TWICE.

That was very well put. I like how your examples show that there can be extremes on both ends, and it's quite a challenge to find a happy medium.

There's a reasonable amount of meaning in the ending of the Macross Frontier movies, though it's the sort of faintly unsatisfying "the adventure is over, but their story is just beginning" type with the Vajra rescuing Alto from imminent heavy quantum annihilation while they mend fences with humanity. A lot of folks find the "the hero gets the girl" endings more satisfying, but sometimes that's not the most appropriate thing for the story. I think the Macross Frontier movies would've been poorly served by a "and they all lived happily ever after" ending, when the story got kinda dark in places.

Lol i don't want a Disney fairy tale type ending in all of my fiction. I just feel that shoji needs to take a step back and approach his finales from a different angle. Frontier 2's ending wouldn't have hit me that way if there was another sequel in the works. I honestly hope that he mixes it up and can give a satisfying, more conventional type ending with the next macross series.

As wacky as Macross Dynamite 7 ended up being, that's not something that honestly shocked me. They were NOT subtle back in the Macross 7 about Basara being borderline asexual in his failure to notice ANY woman except the vampire-fanged space demon who wanted to eat his goddamn mind. Mylene spends a lot of time mooning over him, and he only notices her when she's around thirty seconds from lodging the nearest piece of furniture in his frontal lobe. When Sivil possesses Rex and Akiko, he's completely unmoved by their overly sexual advances... Akiko-Sivil comes on hot and heavy while they're alone, and all he notices is that she happens to be standing on his lunch, while Rex-Sivil is one good yawn away from showing off her huge... tracts of land... and he's only interested in noodling on his guitar. He's easily the most clueless Macross protagonist we've ever had.

The way he left in Dynamite 7 made a lot of sense for the character... he didn't really see Mylene as a romantic partner, but as a fellow musician. Once she came into her own (in his opinion) and he'd already fulfilled his dream, it was "mission accomplished" followed by "exit stage right to make way for the next generation". He genuinely doesn't get that she's got the hots for him... and yeah, that's the payoff. He's helped her come into her own as a musician, and feels his work here is done.

Ugh...I dunno. If dynamite had a story that was as engaging as the effin intro, maybe...just MAYBE the ending could've reached "annoyingly acceptable" status for me. IMO, macross is always defined by 3 of its staples that separate it from other anime.

Love, music, holy **** that's a sweet looking mech.

7 and dynamite truly missed the mark with the love aspect.

Done well, it can be a stimulating way to explore the setting of a large metaseries like Macross with the possibilities inherent in the other forms of media. Macross is really good at this. So's Gundam. You can have parallel stories set at the same time, even in the same place, without the two stories overlapping with each other because the universe is a BIG place. Macross 7 Trash is a decent example of this.

Outside Macross, another example might be Louie the Rune Soldier... it's set in the same setting as Record of Lodoss War, but the tone and story are so radically different that it almost feels like someone's playing a nasty prank the first time you find out that they don't just share a setting, but that the two locations are geographically really close to each other. I think my favorite example has become the Horus Heresy series of novels for Warhammer 40,000... a huge amount of material that's both fundamental to what's done in the main story WITHOUT being a prerequisite to enjoyment of the main story, it builds the universe without building up an enormous list of "stuff you have to have read to know what's going on".

Done BADLY, like Star Trek's reboot movies, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, etc., there's a lot of "disposable fiction" that has no bearing on, or relevance to, the setting and a fair few more cases where you don't get the whole story of the actual movie or series unless you also read a limited-edition comic book that most of the audience didn't even know was a thing. Star Trek didn't explain much about how Spock and the Romulans ended up in the alternate universe except in the comic, and Robotech made the villain's motivation something that was only explained in the limited edition comic book and never touched on in the Shadow Chronicles movie.

But when the material is locked to one country, it's frustrating as a fan....**** you HG!!!!

When so many details for a fictional universe are spread out over different mediums, I agree that it can be fun putting it all together neatly in a collection. Like...you just built the ultimate library for all things *insert your choice of fiction*.

But again, when it's locked to one language...it's depressing, knowing that there's so much more you can't access.

The Macross Frontier movies actually gave you a conclusion, for the first time since DYRL.

Alto chose Sherly. Alto folded with the Vajra

We know what happened.. so why is this frustrating?

The TV series had an ending that was worse, where

both Ranka and Sheryl choose Alto, and Alto chose flying.

MF was a much better Series overall, than the movies.

The series became week when Grace became the main antagonist. If you

switched the series ending, with the Movie taking over, it would have been

a perfect ending. Basically when Grace takes over the plot, if you switched that

to the group using Grace, and switched to the last 25 minutes or so of SNT.

You might have had a single solid show. However if you haven't watched the series

in Full, you're missing out on really the greatness of MF.

My first point still remains valid, you can't judge a show where you essentially watched it

in Mute.

But isn't the ending with alto and Sheryl ambiguous? Aceoftherebellion mentioned you don't hear what is said...so once again, it's not solid enough for a full closure.

For my tastes, I'd like to see something more solid, fleshed out. Similar to what we've seen in DYRL and plus. I mentioned numerous times that anime/Japanese sensibilities always leave a lot to be desired when it comes to their choices in a story's "conclusion".

Again I can't compliment on the frontier TV series since I haven't seen it, so I'm gonna have to take your word for it. However, Knowing how it ends through wiki and having been told here, well, I'd be super pissed off again.

Despite your efforts, The ending still doesn't sit well with me, but I appreciate it nonetheless...even though you did post that max facepalming jpg...but it's cool since you took the time out to provide an explanation.

Now I'm not about to apologize for my initial post, because like I said earlier, I've seen a few unsubbed films and walked away satisfied, and eventually sought out a subbed ver so I can gain an EVEN better understanding of the story. the second movie was one of a few foreign films I've seen w/o subs that pissed me off, and once again, I've been away from macross for so long and desperately wanted to get back into it. All I wanted was for shoji to change it up and surprise me with a conclusion in the spirit of DYRL and Plus. And when I didn't get it...well, I was super pissed. I felt robbed again. You can defend shoji all you want, but in the end, it was MY OPINION. I wasn't hurting anyone y'know? This next line might upset you, but don't let it...

It's like the prequels. Universally hated, panned, and is widely believed to be proof that Lucas done goofed. Then you have those that still support him. I'm not gonna call those supporters idiots. It's their choice. Maybe they saw something in those films that I don't see. EVERY SW fan just wants a series of SW films that has the same spirit of the OT. In my case, I just want a macross story that has the same spirit of the two movies I grew up with and loved...dearly.

I can't believe I just remembered this as I was typing...and I swear, this is true.

The first time I saw DYRL was on a VCD...Chinese subtitles. At that time, despite being a Chinese American, I couldn't read a lick of Chinese (well I still can't now, but I know more than I did back then). I STILL got the story. Little details such as minmay growing up, hikarus hinted past, fockers lady advice wasn't made clear until I finally got a properly subbed version...and that was a yr or two later. But overall? I got what the movie was saying. I smiled at the end. My heart broke when minmay realized Hikaru no longer loved her, I was shocked when focker died...but I walked away smiling, satisfied.

I didn't get any of that with the 2nd movie.

My frustration was aimed at the movies ending as well as shoji's past choices. It's not like I screamed out "whoever likes this is a moron that doesn't understand story telling!!". I'm sure there were films (western or foreign) you hated and immediately wanted to vent out your anger. I don't see any reason why anyone has to react in a nasty way because I just so happened to be deeply dissatisfied with a movie.

Quite true, but I will always prefer the T.V. series and consider it cannon, in my mind. The frontier movies were a good bit different from the series, and I still prefer the series ending compared the the movies ending.

However if this helps :And yes, that image is official, so there you go.

What the deuce?? That is...interesting.

Is there more behind it?

^^

Sorry about that, Brooklynwolf. I felt the same way about the behind-the-scenes notes on the other forum. And then the early sketches that are included without the transformation gimmick got my imagination running wild on what could have been done.

My hope is that Takara will release a toy accurate version of Diaclone Powered Convoy later on.

What you've shown me is salt on a very open wound haha. I bet you saw the 2 pics from the designer where he kit bashed the old UM parts on an MP10.

It looked....glorious.

Instead of that, now we are getting a Magnus that consumed a bit more creatine than recommended and looks swole as f***...he looks like a blue box with arms and legs...oh and with a butt flap. With so many advancements made in transforming robots...they seriously couldn't figure out a way to get rid of the butt flap?

Sigh...back on topic...

I finally got my 3rd yf-29 isamu variant. I just love that color scheme!

Haha, thanks!

I kind of feel the same way, yeah. I love Macross and I enjoy a lot of his work, but yeah, Kowamori does come off as pretentious a lot of the time, and it does generally rub me the wrong way. I ignore it because I love the franchise.

All that said, I'm also going to echo Jenius- frankly, the Frontier films just weren't that great to me in the first place, that ending or not. Too much accelerated plot, too little development, too much of what made the TV series great just kind of dropped. They're very pretty films, and fun to mindlessly look at, but I didn't think they were very good. Personal opinion, no offense to anybody who liked them. The ending was just the last nail in a coffin.

It was pretty to look at...when the camera and cuts didn't go all coke-head on your eyes. It was too fast and messy to follow. Macross plus was, no, IS the pinnacle of hand drawn dog fights. People should go watch it again. Tell me that isnt poetry in motion??

I was hoping for the director to slow down the fights and let our eyes drink in the imagery....but nope, no time to breathe, gotta show how fast these valks go. There was a method to the camera angles, the wide shots, tight shots, and overall language to how things were framed with plus and DYRL. There were So many instances in frontier where I said out loud "wth? Dammit, get Hikaru, Roy, max, and isamu in there! They'll show these guys how do it!"

I've been complaining too much about Big Boy Magnus over in the Transformers thread. I was surprised to read that Takara was originally looking at both an armored prime and an all-in-one transformation early on in the design process. A helpful member posted these translations of the Masterpiece Guide Book at tfw2005:

http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-news-rumors/982723-masterpiece-ultra-magnus-prototype-529.html#post11592127

The all-on-one version won the final vote. I'm at peace with things now and have a new preorder at HLJ. I hope he looks great in person--better than the prototypes we've seen. And maybe armored prime will still get his day...eventually.

Bro...you SERIOUSLY broke my heart. OMG....OMG!! I didn't know about this!!!

I wish I had never got a behind the scenes look at what could've been. Dammit!!