SV-51 analytical thread

[Aegis!]

First off I´m aware this isn´t the first time we´ve talked about the SV-51 but I think this particular mecha deserves its own specialized thread to discuss various points about it.

I have to say I´m quite intrigued by this mecha from various poins of view which I would want to discuss with the rest of you :

The Design : the design of the SV-51 is by far one of the most originals within the macross universe , it oozes with functionality , from telescopic head unit to the multi-functional folding wings and the twin ¨machine guns¨ (sorry I´m not pretty familiar with guns). Let´s begin from top to bottom ; the head unit it´s very reminiscent of Kawamori´s gundam days presenting some features from older (within Kawamori´s designs timeline , not macross) variable fighters such as the VF-14 ¨cone head¨ which makes the unit look more agresive , the several fans at the back of the VF are very representative of the VF technological limits but at the same time add more versatility and elegancy to the overall shape. I have to say , the way the transformation works is very nice, the legs add to the streamlined lines of the mecha and make it look more agile at the same time.

When I compare other mechas like Gundams or Mortarheads (spelling-?-) to some macross mechas sometimes I feel as if some valks lack a bit of detail or elegancy (those are the minority though) designs , I´ve come to realise this is a result of the budget limitations in regards to the animation and the time periods in which some macross series have been produced (i.e. compare valks from M7 with M0 and you´ll see what I mean ,even though M7 valks are much more advanced they had to be simplified for more fluid animation ). In this sense the SV-51 represents a new era in macross mecha designs , some people may say M0 designs are too AC-ish but that´s actually a good thing and I don´t mean appearance-wise but rather the way the design has been elaborated.

It´s like back to the old days of SDF Macross where the VF-1 was in it´s entirety functional to the purpose of combat against giant aliens , this time the SV-51 is functional to the purpose of tactical fighting within a new field of variable combat.

Background history :

We don´t know much about the origins of the SV-51 apart from what we´ve seen on the OVAs , particularly Nora´s coment about the UN stealing the technology for the VFs and the UN argument about the Anti-UN stealing the concepts for the Variable fighter development programme , which doesn´t clarify anything at all , but at least we know the SV-51 was designed for combat fom the beggining and that is quite spectacularly demonstrated in Ep.2.

This mecha is very intriguing in this sense and I would like to hear more of it in th coming episodes.

I want to hear what you thin of it

[Lightning]

yea, it looks like the -51 has twin machine guns on it, like the Su-27/-35/-37/-47, not many fighters outside of the US have Vulcans/gatlings on them for their main weapon.

[Lightning]

also the VF-4 has the same type of head that the SV-51 does, it's just missing the teloscoping part. (forgot to add that in my last post!)

[Mr March]

I think the SV-51 represents a much more functional approach to mecha design in the Macross universe. Surely the analogies you've made to the changing face of mecha design and production budget allowing more detail make sense. However, I think the mindset of those people working on Macross Zero was to create designs with a little more realism and practicality than had been done in previous shows. Yes, Macross must remain a mecha anime and the story must maintain the fantasy elements that make it a science fiction show. However I think it's clear the SV-51 is a prime example of mecha design meeting the demands of reality...to a small extent.

I also think the SV-51 was meant to establish difference in human creation from one society to the next. Of course this being film, there is a need for the creator of Macross Zero to give the audience a very vivid visual cue that says "Okay audience, this big, ugly red guy with the flapping wings is our bad guy. This silver, more elegant robot is our good guy." Yet in designing the two mecha of Macross Zero so differently, it also tells us that these are not just humans fighting each other; this is a war about idealism and how two different societies and two different ways of thinking affect our world.

I find myself very much enjoying some of the more mechanical designs of the Macross mecha and not so much the streamlined, smooth robots we've come to expect from most of the Macross franchise. The SV-51 looks much ore like a robot than the VF-1. Sometimes I find the animation makes the robots of Macross appear too humanoid. The SV-51 battroid mode really promotes an inhuman interpretation, while still being roughly humanoid. It looks like a mechanical creation, not necessarily designed to look human just for the sake of appearances.

I'd love to see a detailed lineart or animation for the SV-51 transformation. It appears similar to the YF-19, but I'm still kinda confused how it works

[justvinnie]

I'd like Kawamori's Lego Sv-51. Wonder if he'll considering publishing instructions?

vinnie

[Graham]

I'm glad this topic has been started as there are a few things I want to discuss about the SV-51's armament.

TheMacross Compendium, lists the SV-51 has having "One fixed Gsh-231 12.7 mm mini-gun." There are two things that bother me about this.

Firstly, I'm wondering why calibre 12.7mm (.50")? This is such a weird choice of calibre for a combat jet/mecha. No modern jet fighter has used internal .50 calibre guns for years and years as they lack the range, penetration and destructive power of the 20mm, 23mm, 25mm, 27mm & 30mm cannon used by most modern jets. Basically, 12.7mm guns would only really be effective against infantry, or soft skin vehicles, i.e. trucks. I presume the SV-51 was designed to fight against contemporary jets & tanks, other VFs and also possible future alien threats. Against these threats 12.7mm, would be next to useless.

Secondly, staying on the subject of the 12.7mm gun, all the line-art and CG art of the SV0-51 clearly shows it to have gun ports in both the left and right wing roots. So why is only one 12.7mm gun listed. Is this perhaps just a typo and the SV-51 should have two internal guns. If not, what is the other wing root port for? targetting equipment?

Moving on to the SV-51's gun pod, which the Compendium lists as "One standard Gsh-371 55 mm gun pod with 120 rounds and one standard spare magazine stowed in unit's special aft gun pod rack". I find it strange that the SV-51's gunpod is 55mm, the same as the VF-1's GU-11 gunpod, whereas the VF-0's gunpod is 35mm calibre. So which came first? Did the SV-51 copy the calibre of the VF-1's gunpod, or did the UN Spacy decide to adopt the 55mm round later after seeing it's combat performance. This would then mean that the VF-1 was originally to have a 35mm gunpod.

Graham

[Knight26]

Graham, in reference to your comments, well I think Egan may have hosed this one. When referring russian aircraft fixed armament, i.e. guns, the first two letters are the caliber. So the GsH-231 should be a 23mm and the GsH-371 should be a 37mm. The 23 is a common russian aircraft cannon size, the 37 as well, though they have not used it for a long time. Currently all modern russian birds use either a 23 or 30 mm cannon, though a few still use 27mm, but they are older planes. The number of guns it probably suspect too then, and if the lineart says two weapons that is waht I would put my money on. Hope that answered your question. BTW I love the Sv-51s design, so cool and unique.

[Yohsho]

I always thought that the Anti-UN created the SV-51 to go against the UN. This would mean that I hoped to get it out before the VF-1 made its appearance so it could whoop regular forces. ie. It wouldn't need that large of a round. Anyone have a good pic of the gunpod? Doesn't it look like one of those old top loading machinge guns.

[Anubis]

I'd love to see a detailed lineart or animation for the SV-51 transformation. It appears similar to the YF-19, but I'm still kinda confused how it works

I would also like to see some lineart detailing its transformation. It seems to me a mix of the 19's and 14's transformations. I can't really figure it out from the little they've shown.

That thing does look awesome in black.

Anyone know anything about it's active stealth capability?

[Tekkaman Blade]

Ooo, a thread dedicated to my favorite mecha in Macross yet.

[azrael]

Background history :

We don´t know much about the origins of the SV-51 apart from what we´ve seen on the OVAs , particularly Nora´s coment about the UN stealing the technology for the VFs and the UN argument about the Anti-UN stealing the concepts for the Variable fighter development programme , which doesn´t clarify anything at all , but at least we know the SV-51 was designed for combat fom the beggining and that is quite spectacularly demonstrated in Ep.2.

IMHO, the key to this is the UN planned the VF series for fights against aliens (again, no sign of aliens for almost a decade and no need to have it out for fighting other countries). The Anti-UN planned it to fight the UN from the start. The UN came up with the VF idea but the Anti-UN was the one to use it against the UN and not some aliens that haven't appeared. As I said on the old board, the problem isn't a bunch of aliens, it's your neighbors.

[Aurel Tristen]

Time to plug translations from the Nanashi's site:

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat.../vari/sv51.html

For reference of course

^^;

[kensei]

Didn't like that telescopic head bit in Ep2. I reckon they're going to far with little stupid gimmicks like that. <_

[Nitrous]

Did someone see the flapping wings of the SV-51? It really looked like a Birdman... no wonder it spooked the Mayans out...

But seriously, the flapping wings thingy really make the VF-0 looked like ancient play toys... and I do agree that the SV-51 looked more advanced than the VF-0.

Do anyone knows why the SV-51 flaps its wings?

[Knight26]

Yeah I was the first to notice the flapping wings back in episode 1, we had a long discussion abouyt it on the old boards. You can probably find it in the archived forums.

[Hoptimus]

I love this mecha. What I really like is how it starts the whole Shinsei and General Galaxies rivalry right at Macross Zero. I cant wait till we learn more about it.

[NoSuchFile]

Do anyone knows why the SV-51 flaps its wings?

Flapping wings give the plane more maneuverability, we see Nora going against a Zero and "retracts" the 51's wings so that it falls, the fall puts her plane directly behind the VF-0, a really cool maneuver if u ask me

[justvinnie]

Time to plug translations from the Nanashi's site:

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat.../vari/sv51.html

For reference of course

^^;

You must be using the saem source matrial as the Compendium cause your translation indicates only one gun instead of two at the wing roots.

vinnie

[Aegis!]

Didn't like that telescopic head bit in Ep2. I reckon they're going to far with little stupid gimmicks like that. <_<

Stupid gimmick !!!??? that´s an outrageously stupid assumption, how do you expect Ivanov to localize Fokker´s VF-0 and shoot him down without giving away his possition by exposing the whole of the mecha and being shot at ? specially when all the sensors are located in the head unit ? that would be plainly stupid if you ask me...furthermore , the SV-51s featured in EP.2 were adapted for underwater take off and in that situation a telescopic head unit is very handy , particularly when the pilot is unable to see beyond a few meters underwater , let alone beyond the surface of the water <_<

Edited September 8, 2003 by Aegis!

[Lightning]

Didn't like that telescopic head bit in Ep2. I reckon they're going to far with little stupid gimmicks like that.

Stupid gimmick !!!??? that´s an outrageously stupid assumption, how do you expect Ivanov to localize Fokker´s VF-0 and shoot him down without giving away his possition by exposing the whole of the mecha and being shot at ? specially when all the sensors are located in the head unit ? that would be plainly stupid if you ask me...furthermore , the SV-51s featured in EP.2 were adapted for underwater take off and in that situation a telescopic head unit is very handy , particularly when the pilot is unable to see beyond a few meters underwater , let alone beyond the surface of the water

i actually thought it was a great design feature of the -51, for that very reason, but i didnt expect for that head to extend that far above the valk.

[Mr March]

Didn't like that telescopic head bit in Ep2. I reckon they're going to far with little stupid gimmicks like that.

All kinds of real world military vehicles use extendable sights, perescopes, and other telescopic devices, as do many infrantry units for covert scouting and close quarters combat. It's not a gimmick, but a very intelligent tool in battle.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Didn't like that telescopic head bit in Ep2. I reckon they're going to far with little stupid gimmicks like that.

All kinds of real world military vehicles use extendable sights, perescopes, and other telescopic devices, as do many infrantry units for covert scouting and close quarters combat. It's not a gimmick, but a very intelligent tool in battle.

the Bradley has those, don't they?

[Mr March]

According to my copy of Bishop's MMW, the M2 Bradley has a total of six ports, each equipped with a periscope. However, there are numerous armored vehicles that make use of them.

[Anubis]

The Longbow Attack Helicopter has that radar "rod" in the front doesn't it? Sorry, I can't remember the specific name. It can hide behind a hill or obstacle, sticking that thing out and see what's around. Kind of the same thing with the telescoping head. Could be very useful in gerwalk mode, especially in urban combat.

Edited September 9, 2003 by Anubis

[0Coota0]

The Longbow Attack Helicopter has that radar "rod" in the front doesn't it? Sorry, I can't remember the specific name. It can hide behind a hill or obstacle, sticking that thing out and see what's around. Kind of the same thing with the telescoping head. Could be very useful in gerwalk mode, especially in urban combat.

It's above the rotor, and it's fixed in position you have move the entire aircraft in order to change the elavation of the radarAH-64 Longbow

[Yohsho]

By the way what is the rivalry between Shinsei and General Galaxies?

[Anubis]

By the way what is the rivalry between Shinsei and General Galaxies?

Should be akin to the competition today between Lockheed-Martin and Boeing for contracts.

[kensei]

Didn't like that telescopic head bit in Ep2. I reckon they're going to far with little stupid gimmicks like that. <_<

Stupid gimmick !!!??? that´s an outrageously stupid assumption, how do you expect Ivanov to localize Fokker´s VF-0 and shoot him down without giving away his possition by exposing the whole of the mecha and being shot at ? specially when all the sensors are located in the head unit ? that would be plainly stupid if you ask me...furthermore , the SV-51s featured in EP.2 were adapted for underwater take off and in that situation a telescopic head unit is very handy , particularly when the pilot is unable to see beyond a few meters underwater , let alone beyond the surface of the water <_<

i actually thought it was a great design feature of the -51, for that very reason, but i didnt expect for that head to extend that far above the valk.

That's why I didn't like it. It looked like it extended almost the full height of the SV-51 in GERWALK mode.

It's like it was saying: " duuuuuhhhhh....lookit me, I'm the new SV-51 in Giraffe Mode."

Edited September 14, 2003 by kensei

[TheGoLambo]

The Tomahawk has a periscope head (or atleast a periscope) if I remember correctly. So the idea's been around Macross for a while.

[imode]

Graham, in reference to your comments, well I think Egan may have hosed this one. When referring russian aircraft fixed armament, i.e. guns, the first two letters are the caliber. So the GsH-231 should be a 23mm and the GsH-371 should be a 37mm. The 23 is a common russian aircraft cannon size, the 37 as well, though they have not used it for a long time. Currently all modern russian birds use either a 23 or 30 mm cannon, though a few still use 27mm, but they are older planes. The number of guns it probably suspect too then, and if the lineart says two weapons that is waht I would put my money on. Hope that answered your question. BTW I love the Sv-51s design, so cool and unique.

Someone may have hosed it, but it wasn't him. Although your explanations may make better sense, the technical descriptions on the Macross Zero web page CLEARLY say 12.7mm minigun and 55mm gunpod.

[VF-19]

Perhaps the 12.7 mm minigun doesn't rely on the size of the round, but rather the round composition, and round velocity... If you get a 12.7 mm round going fast enough, it will do some serious damage, as it will concentrate all of it's force onto a 12.7 mm circular area. Not to mention, if you make that round out of depleted uranium (sorrry if there's a misspell in there), it will ignite when it hits the target (yes it does, that's what M1 tank rounds are made out of, and they burn).

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[NoSuchFile]

Uranium shell would make lots of sence, it could really explain why they mounted a ridiculous 12.7 mm gun on such a craft

Edited September 10, 2003 by NoSuchFile

[VF-19]

Uranium shell would make lots of sence, it could really explain why they mounted a ridiculous 12.7 mm gun on such a craft

Not to mention you can have store more 12.7 mm rounds in the same area than larger caliber rounds...

[GreatMoose]

Quick note: The Su-27/-35/-37/-47 family does NOT have twin guns. They each have one single barrelled weapon.

[Lightning]

Quick note: The Su-27/-35/-37/-47 family does NOT have twin guns. They each have one single barrelled weapon.

that's right, i screwed up Flanker series with the MiG-21! lol!