bsu legato Posted April 14, 2004 Author Share Posted April 14, 2004 Not to sidetrack my own thread, but didn't the decision to purchase the Mk 23 at least partially stem from the first Gulf War? They realized that there was indeed a place for a .45 sidearm, and having obsoleced the 1911 ( bringing them back would be tantamount to aditting they were wrong) they turned to HK for a *new* .45. Any merit to this, or am I just repeating old e-rumors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 The Mk23 was designed from the ground up to be a purpose built special operations command OHWS (Offensive Handgun Weapon System) weapon, hence the nick "Socom" the gun lugs around around it's neck. The pistol was never intended to be a mass-issue replacement for the 1911 as the government had already flooded the ranks with M92s and SIG 226/8es. From day one when testing began in the early '90s the Mk23 was slated for exclusive use in the Navy SEALs and a few other select elite special forces groups commanded by SOCOM. The gun successfully beat out the Colt pistol (which was a steaming pile of crap many say) to become the OHWS for SOCOM. Since then not much has been seen or done with the gun. The LAM has undergone a few changes and has many different variations made by many different government contractors, the suppressor has remained the same and is one of the few working elements of the design that the gun works well at. Since it's introduction though some specops teams (supposedly) don't like to use it due to it's size and prefer to run the smaller, handier SIG 226/8... but for super deep underwater pop out of a sub missions the Mk23 is purpose built to stand the pressures and environmental damage. Since it's induction and apparent "dissapointment" in military circles, H&K has retooled it's USP using many of the same tricks they made the Mk23 with under the name "USP Tactical" and is now really pushing that as their new specops open market weapon of choice. Most police agencies and government units outside of the SOCOM command structure are usually seen with the USP Tactical rather than it's beefier brother. As for the regular joe troops, the good old 1911 has been in use with Delta, Rangers and other units up to this day. Retired or not that gun does not go quietly into the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Since it's introduction though some specops teams (supposedly) don't like to use it due to it's size and prefer to run the smaller, handier SIG 226/8... but for super deep underwater pop out of a sub missions the Mk23 is purpose built to stand the pressures and environmental damage. Find that curious that teams using the 226 snub the 23... seing as how the SEALs are the main users of the 226s, and at the same time, are the main folks warming up to the Mk23 again. The 1911's run by Delta are hardly of the "good old" variety. =) Most of the 1911's used by the high-speed teams have been so retooled and customized as to be an entirely different animal altogether. Of those, I think only the MEUSOC 1911's are still using some Colt and Springfield parts... and I'm under the impression that they're being phased out now as well. -Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JsARCLIGHT Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I have talked with a SEAL or two in my time and most of them like the smaller pistols, mainly due to all the crap they are carrying anyway the last thing they need is for their back up weapon to be the size of a shoebox. After all, most specops folks are trained to treat pistols as backups and not as primary use weapons (let's face it, the concept of an "offensive handgun" is still sort of militarily unsound). I have heard that the hatch poppers (guys swimming out from subs) are the ones with the woody for the Mk23 as the gun can go from chilly deep deeps to surface without busting it's guts. Plus it is one of few handguns on the market purpose built to be silenced like the Hush Puppy which makes it a lifesaver if you need to get off some quiet rounds while riding a parachute down to a drop zone and your main weapon is too large to be useful in the chute harness. Most of the 1911's running around in the hands of Delta operators are not even milspec pistols... most of them are Kimbers, Wilson Combats and other syles of non-milspec modded pieces. When you can request any gun you want they ask for the best I guess. AFAIK the old old old 1911A1's have all been demilled or put out to pasture. I was referring to the deisgn more or less and not the actual original frames from WWII, Korea and 'Nam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Yep, I can see how something smaller might be more handy. From what I've heard from a SEAL, the Mk23's not quite as ungainly as some make it out to be, but it's not a small gun by far. I've always wondered what 1911's Delta *actually* uses, since rumors have abound that they carry highly customized Wilsons, Kimbers, and what not. Also curious what the marines have replaced their older MEUSOC 1911's with... think those were built on mil-spec Springfield frames, and the LAPD SWAT based their own sidearm on that particular configuration-- but they've now since switched to customized Kimbers as well. Don't happen to know if the FBI Hostage Rescue Team is still using their Springfield custom (commerically designated as the TRP Pro), do ya? I've heard rumors that they've switched *yet again* to something else, even after performing extensive tests on a new 1911 to replace their previous Les Baers built on Para Ordinance frames. -Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Jenius Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Back to MGS3 talk... I'll bet that the guards aren't really that stupid. Its probably just a tech demo to show people one of the things they have up their sleeve. In an interview Kojima said that they had to find ways to make Snake MORE visible because he was getting hard for the game player to see. Interesting stuff. Plus, who said that they're genome soldiers? You know, its not like the guards in previous Metal Gear games were that smart anyway too. Also even the way Snake hid in previous installments was pretty hokey. But hey, at least he's not doing the splits and suspending himself above eye level... yeah... Sam Fisher does some things.... that are infinitely more ridiculous. This game's gonna be fun, and if history repeats itself we're gonna be suprised by something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I'm hoping that the surprise is that we get to play as "The Real, Real Snake" in modern times and in Act 2 of the game. Because that'd sure as hell suprise me, seeing how we last got to play as him on the Tanker, and that it looks like we might be gipped again here. The idea of playing as Big Boss is neat enough, but I'm starting to miss our beloved main character, and getting a little bit tired of all the runarounds being forced to play some twisted version/clone/pansy arse-blonde-kid-shadow of his greatness. Wanna surprise us, Kojima? Let us play as good ol' ooging-at-Meryl's-bum Snake again. And throw Meryl in for good measure. -Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaijin Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Don't happen to know if the FBI Hostage Rescue Team is still using their Springfield custom (commerically designated as the TRP Pro), do ya? I've heard rumors that they've switched *yet again* to something else, even after performing extensive tests on a new 1911 to replace their previous Les Baers built on Para Ordinance frames. -Al Yes, they still have them. And, to get back on topic, remember it's just a game...the camo thing is still a tad more realistic than hauling an armory around in your pants... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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