Stealth Escort Attack Aircraft Carrier

[daeudi]

I really don't see why anyone is getting up in arms about anything here.

Nanashi, you always seem to claim that your sources are official books, usually rare untranslated material. In your threads you often even cite sources, but on your website you don't. I think it would severely diminish any doubts of your accuracy if you simply provided a small notice of what sources you used, teeny-tiny text at the bottom of the page. Would make everything look a lot more official. State what information came from where, so it's clear that nothing is speculation.

I, personally, see no reason to doubt Nanashi's integrity on this matter, but keep in mind that even official books and documents can conflict with each other. I'm sincerely curious to know where Egan got his information, as I see no reason to doubt him either.

So- it seems I have a second to my motion, lol.

All I am saying is that while you are making a page, why not include the material you get it from? Since you are obviously checking that material for the page, why not list it? This would be an additional- what? 30 seconds of typing?

I understand the pics take time to clean and scan- but 30 seconds wouldn't hurt would it?

You take the time to add your logo and specious copyright to everything. If you want to be taken as serious- list your sources on the page.

(Yes I said specious copyright. The copyright is not valid anymore than it would be if you were copyrighting an MP3 that you adjusted the volume levels on, or copyrighted scans of ANY other material whose copyright is owned by the creator. I'm sorry, but translations of copyrighted material are still the property of the original creators.)

So please take a half-minute per page to list the originals!

I do appreciate your work, but if you want us to refer to you regularly, give us a reason to. Stating that you will reply to direct e-mails regarding your source is a poor way of handling it, both logistically, and in terms of professionalism.

[Jester]

So Egans wrong then hmm ???? Personally Im more inclined to believe Egan...someone who has sat next to the Big Floating Head himself, and works tirelessly to give accurate information, than Nanashi. Reason being that Nanashi's previous work have involved some made up stuff, and MAJOR guesswork passed off as fact. Something that annoys a lot of us that have hoped to use him as a source of credible information and have been thus left discounting his work as fiction. In addition the sources that you have noted are people you claim are former employee's of Studio Nue, and as that previous discussion ascertained they are not the official source on Macross. And The_Major, its weep and not weap.

Egan however quotes his sources.

http://www.anime.net/macross/endnotes/index.html

As to RPG sites, and newbies reading them ?? Mine is not the only site around that deals with Macross from an RPG point of view. There are also Robotech sites that mix and match, and plenty of supposedly accurate, 'canon' Macross RPG sites that actually put in any old rubbish they feel like. I use 100% official sources, and have scoured the episodes and OVA's until I've worn by video heads useless, and I still have to make educated guesses as to certain things within the Macross universe. As to people using RPG sites for accurate information, more fool them. Anyone with any sense would use Egan Loo's Macross Compendium, or the official Macross website. Most RPG sites are wholly inaccurate, but mine I'd say is 90-95% accurate, and 5-10% educated guesswork, based on what is seen in the series and OVA's.

Regarding these other numbered ships, Nanashi, perhaps you'd be so kind as to post images for us to see. As I have no recollection of those numbers within the EDF scene.

[Valkyrie]

Dude, what's your deal?

Reason being that Nanashi's previous work have involved some made up stuff, and MAJOR guesswork passed off as fact.

We've already been over this. Nanashi makes up nothing. Never has, never will.

You pass this off as a widely accepted fact, yet offer nothing to disprove Nanashi's claims.

Something that annoys a lot of us that have hoped to use him as a source of credible information and have been thus left discounting his work as fiction.

Ah, and now you imply that you speak for the general consensus. The old "Everyone else thinks I'm right, so you should too" bit.

Look around. You're the only one here questioning the validity of his information. Sure, the masses may prefer if he cited his exact sources, but no one is assuming it came from his imagination because he has not.

Most RPG sites are wholly inaccurate, but mine I'd say is 90-95% accurate, and 5-10% educated guesswork, based on what is seen in the series and OVA's.

That's exactly why I don't like any Macross RPG sites. It's always impossible to tell where the fact ends and where the fiction begins. Everything is presented as if it's all 100% factual.

Even if only 5% of any given entry is made up, who's going to be able to tell which parts are fiction? (besides Nanashi )

[Southcross]

Dude, what's your deal?

Reason being that Nanashi's previous work have involved some made up stuff, and MAJOR guesswork passed off as fact.

We've already been over this. Nanashi makes up nothing. Never has, never will.

You pass this off as a widely accepted fact, yet offer nothing to disprove Nanashi's claims.

Something that annoys a lot of us that have hoped to use him as a source of credible information and have been thus left discounting his work as fiction.

Ah, and now you imply that you speak for the general consensus. The old "Everyone else thinks I'm right, so you should too" bit.

Look around. You're the only one here questioning the validity of his information. Sure, the masses may prefer if he cited his exact sources, but no one is assuming it came from his imagination because he has not.

Most RPG sites are wholly inaccurate, but mine I'd say is 90-95% accurate, and 5-10% educated guesswork, based on what is seen in the series and OVA's.

That's exactly why I don't like any Macross RPG sites. It's always impossible to tell where the fact ends and where the fiction begins. Everything is presented as if it's all 100% factual.

Even if only 5% of any given entry is made up, who's going to be able to tell which parts are fiction? (besides Nanashi )

Thanks Valk for saying so delicatly what I have been wanting to for the last two hours. I had quite a chat with Nanashi yesterday about all the work he does, seeing Jester's post tonight just made my blood boil.

[daeudi]

Seriously.

30 seconds per page.

That would end this once and for all.

And be a bigger aid to fellow Macross fans, which is the purpose of your site after all.

Like I said- if you show something we like, how will we know where to get a copy for ourselves? Especially of the artowrk that you don't want anyone copying?

What do ya say Nanashi- will ya list your references?

[Southcross]

this is like a bad echo

Most of us would agree that we would like to see "references", are we going to press the subject to the point where Nanashi gives up out of frustration... hell NO! Will he likely be adding them, I can't speak for him, but I think he will.

I think seeing the numerous "projects" he is working on go live for the Macross community to enjoy is more favorable than seeing "source: Macross Book Blah-Blah" at the bottom of every page.

[JELEINEN]

Nanashi, you always seem to claim that your sources are official books, usually rare untranslated material. In your threads you often even cite sources, but on your website you don't. I think it would severely diminish any doubts of your accuracy if you simply provided a small notice of what sources you used, teeny-tiny text at the bottom of the page. Would make everything look a lot more official. State what information came from where, so it's clear that nothing is speculation.

But if he cited his sources, that would hurt his claim to own the copyright on the material.

[Jester]

Thanks Daeudi for making the point I've been trying to get across. I know Nathan would be screaming it to. Personally me, and a lot of others would like him to reference ALL of his work, (those people have been quite active requesting it on this site,) so that we can corroborate it, and utilise the artwork, and get a better understanding of the inner workings of Macross. We can't do that though if Nanashi or anyone else like him is holding onto the references like its the One Ring to Rule them. We aren't even asking for references on every page, (although that would be nice for ease of knowing what is referenced where,) but a single page like Egan's would be fine.

Valkyrie, simmer down. Im referring to Nanashi's previous incarnations of his site, and some of the work that was on it, (he had canon and fanfic.) And I never stated that I spoke for everyone, just a select few. So stop getting your knickers in a twist. In addition I always point people to Egans site for 200% factual references if they want it, and I would expect them to do. Also, my site is NOT every RPG site, and I am also not accountable for newbies.

Jeleinen, (Nanashi you'd better read this too,) just a quick point. And this isn't meant to sound hard, BUT.......

Nanashi doesn't actually own the copyright on any of the material he has created......to a point. He has ownership rights over his site, and the the wording, but the Macross data, references and images are all copyrighted to Big West. Trust me on this as the MRC has looked into the copyright angle for the last 3 years so as to cover ourselves. In fact if you were to write a Macross fanfic story you'd only own your work, but not any of the Macross references within it. Mention the SDF-1, and Big West could legally order you to remove it if they chose to do so. So Nanashi's actually on VERY dicey ground by plastering his name as copyright on the images on his site. As from a legal point of view it indicates that he claims copyright ownership of the images, and they are copyrighted to Big West. With his name on them he could potentially find himself being sued by Big West for copyright infringement. (Highly unlikely they'd do it though.) The code to stop people right clicking however he can happily do as its not a copyright issue.

That copyright actually applies to every single Macross site on the web, including MW, and my own. In fact because of the complexity and arsey nature of copyright law Big West could conceivably demand that you stop saying the word Macross if they wanted. (I hate copyright, its a pain in the arse, and far too bloody complex.)

Thankfully Big West is not 'Less than Harmony' Gold, and they certainly seem to understand the love that we Macross fans have for the series' and OVA's. If they 'were' Harmony Gold though Im quite sure that most of us would be forced to sing, 'We love Carl' every morning, and be being sued for having Macross toys/books/sites/etc.

[Roy Focker]

That copyright actually applies to every single Macross site on the web, including MW, and my own. In fact because of the complexity and arsey nature of copyright law Big West could conceivably demand that you stop saying the word Macross if they wanted. (I hate copyright, its a pain in the arse, and far too bloody complex.)

Review "Fair Use" it allows you to use someone else's copyright (to a point) if it's for the purposes of education, criticism, review or parody.

[Southcross]

...Echo....

Nanashi doesn't actually own the copyright on any of the material he has created......to a point. He has ownership rights over his site, and the the wording, but the Macross data, references and images are all copyrighted to Big West. Trust me on this as the MRC has looked into the copyright angle for the last 3 years so as to cover ourselves. In fact if you were to write a Macross fanfic story you'd only own your work, but not any of the Macross references within it. Mention the SDF-1, and Big West could legally order you to remove it if they chose to do so. So Nanashi's actually on VERY dicey ground by plastering his name as copyright on the images on his site. As from a legal point of view it indicates that he claims copyright ownership of the images, and they are copyrighted to Big West. With his name on them he could potentially find himself being sued by Big West for copyright infringement. (Highly unlikely they'd do it though.) The code to stop people right clicking however he can happily do as its not a copyright issue.

Jester, you have actualy been to Nanashi's website right?

©2003 Nanashi's Information Group / ©1982-2003 Big West

He seems to be making no claim to the "actual data" that I can see?

Edited February 9, 2004 by Southcross

[maxjenius81]

5-10% educated guess work? Seeing as how the only ships in the Macross universe that have their actual weapon suites listed in the compendium are the Macross (which only mentions the rail cannon, buster cannon, and the large particle cannon), Macross 7 (Gunship, and four beam weapons), ARMD (which covers everything most people recognize), Oberth (ditto), and Asuka II (which while mentioning weapon syustems, gives no number).

The following ships have no weapons listing at all: Megaroad, Neo Nuptiet, Uraga, Guantanamo, Bolognese, Riviera, Pricne Marco, Prometheus, Illustria, and Daedalus.

Now i enjoy the UN Spacy Database quite a lot and visit it frequently, ive been going since it was back in its early days. However to claim that Nanahashi simply makes things up frequently, then claim that you barely do, is just not true. Every capital ship on your page has a full weapons suite, speeds, radar systems, comm systems, life support systems, subspace mass sensors. Nearly all of this is pure speculation. Educated guesses, yes, but still not backed up by canon source material. Yes these ships probably have these systems, but as to the ranges and capabilities, those are pure specualtion. In fact, ive thought for a while these numbers are a little low. Mecha complements are also not given for many ships, so yours are also pure speculation (case in point the Uraga).

Of crouse there are also the body wing hardpoints which are point of much debate. While I do agree with them, they are never shown in the animation and not mention in canon source material.

I';m sorry but i appreciate how much money and time Nanahashi devotes to his website. And while I dont agree with everything he says or does ,and do wish he cited sources to avoid this kinda of agruement, he brings many Macross fans information they never would have been able to get otherwise.

Making up information is ok in my mind, especially to fill in the gaps (like the fact that 90% of the ships in macros make no mention of point defense). However, you make up considerably more than just a small 5-10%.

[Prime]

Awesome.

Nanashi, your site is steadily growing as one of the best sources for fanwork reference material.

Thanks for all the hard work!!!

Just had to throw in my agreement with that statement...

[Jester]

Max, as I said before my site is an rpg site, and thus I have to use a certain amount of guesswork. Plus Im constrained by the limitations of the Palladium gaming system, and common sense for what would and wouldn't be used/added. I don't claim to be 100% accurate, but arguing over the percentage is a bit daft isn't it. Hence my comment of wanting to kidnap Kawamori-San so I can get every last bit of info out of him on weapons, equipment, mecha complement, etc, etc. Then once that is done I'll be personally leading the attack on Harmony Golds offices

As to Southcross' point.......yes I have been there and yes I have seen that. All that covers Nanashi on is his own work. In otherwords it states his claim under the Millenium Digital Copyright legislation to the time and hard work he has put in to the stuff on his site, but not to the Macross stuff, which leads of course to Big West. The Big West mention denotes Big Wests rights, and all things Macross, even the slightest mention. HOWEVER........under copyright law, by Nanashi placing HIS name on the images he is legally implying that they are his copyrighted material.

Im noting this for Nanashi's benefit as copyright is a bitch, as I know. And despite my disagreements with him over references and material Im loathe to have him get his arse dragged into court over copyright. (One reason Im glad Im in the UK, as Harmony Gold can't touch me MWU HA HA HA)

[Aurel Tristen]

So Egans wrong then hmm ????

Egan Loo has made errors and changes in the past. No one is perfect, neither am I.

>Personally Im more inclined to believe Egan...someone who has sat next to the

>Big Floating Head himself, and works tirelessly to give accurate information, than

>Nanashi.

I, myself, work tirelessly at scanning, retouching images and translating and ensuring accurately. And of course spending $1000's importing original source materials. At Otakon 98, I have had the privilege of meeting and speaking (briefly) to Kawamori-san: http://www.macrossmecha.info/tmp/kawamori&wj.jpg

>Reason being that Nanashi's previous work have involved some made up stuff,

>and MAJOR guesswork passed off as fact. Something that annoys a lot of us that

>have hoped to use him as a source of credible information and have been thus

>left discounting his work as fiction. In addition the sources that you have noted

>are people you claim are former employee's of Studio Nue, and as that previous

>discussion ascertained they are not the official source on

Not a former Studio Nue member. Masahiro Chiba belong to a group called MAT working on specifications. He later worked on Macross 7 officially credited for Macross 7's mechanical specifications. Accomplished and published under the Big West copyright on official products (Macross 7 and Dynamite 7 etc.) Junya Ishigaki, who does not belong to Studio Nue, designed the Cheyenne Destroid and it is an official production. So what you are saying holds no ground.

Egan however quotes his sources.

http://www.anime.net/macross/endnotes/index.html

I, at one time had a list of source materials on a previous version of my website, but I took this down. You say that I make all of this stuff up and I don't know what I'm saying, but you couldn't be further from the true. Talk to all the people that I have consulted. From back when Mute was running guvava.com, Macross TC for Shogo, Macross TC for Homeworld, and now currently I am providing mechanical design supervision for Macross TC for Homeworld II by providing information and other reources to aid in their project, not to mention all of the people I helped with Info-Requests and members here at MW.

These are old photos of some (have many more now) :

http://www.macrossmecha.info/tmp/source/so...rial-books1.jpg

http://www.macrossmecha.info/tmp/source/so...rial-books2.jpg

http://www.macrossmecha.info/tmp/source/so...rial-books3.jpg

http://www.macrossmecha.info/tmp/source/so...rial-books4.jpg

http://www.macrossmecha.info/tmp/source/so...rial-books5.jpg

>As to RPG sites, and newbies reading them ?? Mine is not the only site around

>that deals with Macross from an RPG point of view. There are also Robotech sites

>that mix and match, and plenty of supposedly accurate, 'canon' Macross RPG

>sites that actually put in any old rubbish they feel like. I use 100% official

>sources, and have scoured the episodes and OVA's until I've worn by video

>heads useless, and I still have to make educated guesses as to certain things

>within the Macross universe. As to people using RPG sites for accurate

>information, more fool them. Anyone with any sense would use Egan Loo's

>Macross Compendium, or the official Macross website. Most RPG sites are wholly

>inaccurate, but mine I'd say is 90-95% accurate, and 5-10% educated guesswork, based on what is seen in the series and OVA's.

There are still numberous things on your site that could be presented more accurately.

>Regarding these other numbered ships, Nanashi, perhaps you'd be so kind as to

>post images for us to see. As I have no recollection of those numbers within the

>EDF scene.

>

As I said: CV-320 Stealth Escort Battle Carrier, CV-216 Stealth Escort Battle Carrier and CV-572 Stealth ARMD Aircraft Carrier

[Lightning]

this is getting nasty....

[Jester]

No Lightening, its getting somewhere. Progress my good man, progress.

Re: the EDF Ships........butter that blows another theory out of the water, but isn't there a Guantanamo that has a number somewhere in the region of 1000+ or maybe its my video copy is so buggered now it just looks that way.

[Jester]

Actually as we have you on the subject Nanashi, any idea's on the numbering conventions for CV's ??? And total UNS Fleet size ??? And numbering and designation convention for Bolognese Frigates ?? (we assume FFG, as in the US Navy's.)

[Valkyrie]

Christ, you insult the man, spread lies about him, and now you want him to help you?

[Lestat]

I would just like to defend nanashi in saying, over the four or so years I have known him, he has always come through with obscure information when I requested it, including images, which Egan Loo has never provided.

I have sent emails to Egan Loo a number of times in the past, usually they are completely ignored. Nanashi has always made the time and effort to finding the information. You are privileged to get to see his information and images, which no one else has.

He should be respected, not insulted.

[Southcross]

I would just like to defend nanashi in saying, over the four or so years I have known him, he has always come through with obscure information when I requested it, including images, which Egan Loo has never provided.

I have sent emails to Egan Loo a number of times in the past, usually they are completely ignored. Nanashi has always made the time and effort to finding the information. You are privileged to get to see his information and images, which no one else has.

He should be respected, not insulted.

::Wild applause::

[daeudi]

I just wanted to know where to go to the schematic views!

Stop fighting, you're tearing this family apart!

I don't want another Daddy....uhm, nevermind- flashed back to something else.

Seriously- When I asked about the references- I just wanted to do some scans myself for some posters at home. This is out of hand y'all.

[Jester]

Ditto

Just a quickie, in the EDF scene there is a blue ship which looks like a Thuverl Salan Destroyer to me. Obviously I don't have a picture to hand so anyone else have any idea's as to what it is ???

Any views on what the ship in the upper centre of the image here below is ??

And to one of my earlier questions. What is the number on the Guantanamo on the right of the picture.

[Jester]

Wow, what a resounding response from ........errr nobody.

[Lestat]

...yeah... and you... ugh... wonder why?

(yes that was sarcasm)

I might suggest you appologise to Nanashi first if you expect to get a response out of him.

[Jester]

Actually I don't expect a response from Nanashi as I've never received one from him in the past, (bar one.) Your obviously lucky in getting responses as I've emailed him in the past on several occasions and only got one response which basically said that he wasn't going to name his sources. All other emails were catagorically ignored.

I don't feel I have any reason to apologise for my opinion. My comment was to the massed ranks of the MW members involved in this thread. Obviously Im wasting my time as instead of getting involved in a discussion on Macross, where you have been asked your opinions, some of you would rather argue in a futile manner in between worshipping Nanashi/Wind-Jammer.

[Southcross]

egads! please someone just lock this thread... this is not going to ever end is it?

[Agent ONE]

Why lock it?

I like this thread, it would be slightly better with a picture of me though...

If anyone is interested in my opinion and you all should be it seems to me that Nanashi takes the whole "I scaned it in so it is my copywritten material" thing a little too far. BW owns that stuff, you have a fan site about it therefore you can display it without infringing on the BW's ownership rights, but you need to crank the "I own it" stuff down just a little.

[Southcross]

Its beating a dead horse... the same horse we all sent out to pasture... let it rest in peace

[Lestat]

Actually, that's a grey area. If you take a photograph of a painting, you own the copyright to the photograph, but not to the painting itself. See, so technically, he owns the scans, since he made them. Of course, Big West and studio Nue, who own the copyrights of the designs in the scans have a right to request their removal, but for all intents and purposes, those scans do belong to Nanashi Windjammer.

Without a DOUBT, his translations belong to him. He has paid for them to be done, which means that he then owns the copyright. As they are a translation, and not the original material, he owns the copyright to them, and you could not otherwise see them.

As for accusations that I'm worshiping nanashi. No I'm not. He's a friend, and very amicable. For your information, I use MSN or ICQ to talk to him, not email, which is far more effective.

I know it could be seen that nanashi is being anti about his materials. Sorry to tell you though, they are his, and he has a right to ask that you don't distrubute them.

As for Jester, your comments imply that you were expecting nanashi to answer those questions when it is clearly apparent that you have insulted him, at least to any other reader perhaps you yourself. If you do not think that is the case, that's fine, but others do, so I wouldn't expect an answer anytime soon.

[JELEINEN]

Without a DOUBT, his translations belong to him. He has paid for them to be done, which means that he then owns the copyright. As they are a translation, and not the original material, he owns the copyright to them, and you could not otherwise see them.

Completely untrue. The Berne Convention specifically states that translations are owned by the original copyright holder. Unless Nanashi has a license or contract saying otherwise, those translations belong to the publisher of his source material.

[Aurel Tristen]

I wonder why I even bother....

[the white drew carey]

Its beating a dead horse... the same horse we all sent out to pasture... let it rest in peace

Moo.

[Chthonic]

I've been keeping up with this for some time now and it's apparent people can't understand other people's work. I believe it's a touch of jeously. I know WJ from the OLD days and I know him personally because he lives around the corner from me. He always cool to confrm info regarding any Macross mechincal related info. It's a shame that instead of asking for sources someone has to berate him. Dude chill and find your own DAMN work, because you don't want to work for it.

[twich]

I for one have enjoyed all the fansites that are around devoted to Macross. I look at all the information whether it be "official" or "best Guess" I still respect the fact that there are people who devote time and energy, and in some cases, money to providing information about my favorite anime, Macross.

Admittedly, I looked mostly at The Macross Compendium, but it seems as of late that the site is not being updated, so I have had to look elsewhere for information...I have found it on Nanshasi's site and others...I appreciate his efforts and would like to see his work continue on his site.

Lets not bash one another because we dont happen to agree with what that persons does.....it discourages those people and it tends to ruin it for those who enjoy all the various sites that support Macross.

Thanks,

Larry

[JELEINEN]

I wonder why I even bother....

While I don't agree with your assertions on copyright, I would like to say that I do appreciate the time and effort you put into your site and its materials. And though I may have nitpicked about your translations, they're still far better than what I've seen some professionals put out. Nor do I question the veracity of your sources. I appologize that my complaints have over-shadowed my appreciation for what you do. You have a great site and you should be very proud of it.