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1 hour ago, Mog said:

Don’t forget that he did pay back his debts to his Ferrix buddies/associates.

So, he’s not a complete arsehole.

He’s pretty close though. I still think it was pretty scuzzy that he hit on Bix after his actions basically  got her fiancé killed.

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1 hour ago, Mog said:

Don’t forget that he did pay back his debts to his Ferrix buddies/associates.

So, he’s not a complete arsehole.

True, he did, so there's some honor there as well. As good guys go, he's a bit of a grey area, but perhaps my judgment of his character was a bit too cynical. That 'greyness' makes him a more interesting character, though. I very much enjoyed the darker tone of the series.

Just now, Big s said:

He’s pretty close though. I still think it was pretty scuzzy that he hit on Bix after his actions basically  got her fiancé killed.

Well, not really- Timm made the choice to alert the Empire, so that was entirely on him.  He acted out of jealousy, knowing that Bix and Andor have a close post-breakup friendship, which I'm sure he was aware of before hooking up with Bix. Regardless, he made the call, betrayed Bix, and ironically got shot. No tears here. As for Andor, he is scuzzy, so....😆 Beyond that, Bix is lovely, so I can't really blame the guy, even if it is poor form. I think we've established that Andor is an anus. 😉

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1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

Good points and very likely closer to what the writers had in mind for the character. To me, though, Andor comes off as a very self-involved person. However, he's not without feelings; he clearly loves his surrogate mother, Maarva, whose surname he's even taken as his own. He has an affinity for Bix, and for the droid B2EMO. He wants to find his sister and is willing to put himself in considerable danger to that end, so again a demonstration of emotion beyond pure selfishness. But he's not above using people to get what he wants, and all too often the mercenary side of his personality takes precedence over his humanity, as it were.

TBH, I don't see our views of Cassian Andor as mutually exclusive.  Cassian is clearly a very self-involved person.  He was clearly embroiled in some shady business on Ferrix well before the series started.  They imply he's a thief who steals hardware from ships sent in to be scrapped and resells it.  He owes enough money to multiple creditors for one to try coercing him into repayment with the implicit threat of violence.  He's gotten in trouble severe enough to be incarcerated by the Empire once before. 

We do see Cassian do unselfish things... but in the end, the reason is always that it's personal.  He makes money by shady means to take care of Maarva because she's his (foster) mother.  We see a scene that implies his first arrest and prison term was for assaulting Imperial soldiers to take revenge for his foster father's execution.  He commits murder on Morlana One to save his own skin, and ultimately meets Luthen in a bid to rustle up enough cash for him to take himself (and maybe Maarva) somewhere else.  He decides to take Luthen up on his offer for an outrageous sum of money that'd let him clear his debts, move his mother somewhere nice, and live comfortably.  He kills Skeen out of disgust for his craven nature.  Now he's serving an unearned prison term that will doubtless motivate him to further acts against the Empire in the name of revenge.  It's a safe bet he doesn't join the Rebellion for the sake of principles... but because it's personal.  

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2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

TBH, I don't see our views of Cassian Andor as mutually exclusive.  Cassian is clearly a very self-involved person.  He was clearly embroiled in some shady business on Ferrix well before the series started.  They imply he's a thief who steals hardware from ships sent in to be scrapped and resells it.  He owes enough money to multiple creditors for one to try coercing him into repayment with the implicit threat of violence.  He's gotten in trouble severe enough to be incarcerated by the Empire once before. 

We do see Cassian do unselfish things... but in the end, the reason is always that it's personal.  He makes money by shady means to take care of Maarva because she's his (foster) mother.  We see a scene that implies his first arrest and prison term was for assaulting Imperial soldiers to take revenge for his foster father's execution.  He commits murder on Morlana One to save his own skin, and ultimately meets Luthen in a bid to rustle up enough cash for him to take himself (and maybe Maarva) somewhere else.  He decides to take Luthen up on his offer for an outrageous sum of money that'd let him clear his debts, move his mother somewhere nice, and live comfortably.  He kills Skeen out of disgust for his craven nature.  Now he's serving an unearned prison term that will doubtless motivate him to further acts against the Empire in the name of revenge.  It's a safe bet he doesn't join the Rebellion for the sake of principles... but because it's personal.  

Agreed.  An excellent summation of his motivation. In the case of Skeen, though, in retrospect, I think there be some principle there; maybe for the first time beyond his 'foster' family, he felt a part of something, a kinship if you will, with Vel's gang and an alignment with their goals, something bigger than just himself. It was personal, yes, but more to the point, Skeen's proposition was at that point a betrayal of the cause, and that was too great an affront to allow.  Perhaps that was the intended difference between his hesitant slaying of the Morlana cop, and the immediate killing of Skeen by the writers/director: the first was for self-preservation, the latter was a direct answer to betrayal of Vel and the Rebel cause, the cause being more important to Andor, hence his unhesitant reaction. Just spitballing- I don't know my arse from my elbow most days. 😊

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I still think Luthen knowing so much about Cassian and not wanting to make that guy an enemy were bigger factors.

Skeen proved he can’t be trusted.

Luthen gave Cassian a expensive kyber crystal as a safety deposit at the start of his mission.

Given those circumstances, who would you double-cross:  Luthen or Skeen?

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1 hour ago, Mog said:

I still think Luthen knowing so much about Cassian and not wanting to make that guy an enemy were bigger factors.

Skeen proved he can’t be trusted.

Luthen gave Cassian a expensive kyber crystal as a safety deposit at the start of his mission.

Given those circumstances, who would you double-cross:  Luthen or Skeen?

There's certainly a sound argument to be made that shooting Skeen, a man who by any rational standard will be missed or mourned by exactly nobody, dead out of disgust is a great deal safer than betraying Luthen and risking him... expressing his irritation... through an immense galaxy-spanning network of spies, saboteurs, infiltrators, insurrectionists, violent anarchists, and terrorists who would all very much like to have 40 million credits to bankroll their war against the Empire.

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13 minutes ago, sh9000 said:

C0D2F6AE-8B18-4DBF-8881-581E12960FF1.jpeg.81b7ad01de3c6d4104e27b24d936831e.jpeg

The Arnold J. Rimmer energy in this still is overwhelming.

"There's a saying amongst the officers: If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well. If it's not worth doing, give it to Karn. He aches for responsibility but constantly fails the security exam. Astoundingly zealous. Possibly mad. Probably has more teeth than brain cells. Promotion prospects: comical."

 

13 minutes ago, sh9000 said:

A10D5AC6-008D-4615-9384-B96D403A6D12.jpeg.1be929ee6840c603461dd6b2d8eb0d82.jpeg

E0F67866-8ED9-4B0D-9AC9-2DB5436B9974.jpeg.1cfa2455d7c661ca3bcdc8ddd7ae65ea.jpeg

Out of context, this looks like Cassian's being lectured on the importance of good grooming by a disappointed hairdresser in a day spa.

"You see, Cassian... conditioner is so important."

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6 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Well, not really- Timm made the choice to alert the Empire, so that was entirely on him.  He acted out of jealousy, knowing that Bix and Andor have a close post-breakup friendship, which I'm sure he was aware of before hooking up with Bix. Regardless, he made the call, betrayed Bix, and ironically got shot. No tears here. As for Andor, he is scuzzy, so....😆 Beyond that, Bix is lovely, so I can't really blame the guy, even if it is poor form. I think we've established that Andor is an anus. 😉

I don’t know. I kinda feel like he knew about the other stuff going on as well when he made the call. He basically took her and gave her a life where she wouldn’t necessarily have to resort to crime anymore. And then this walking anus tries to drag her back into that life. They know that the empire could easily just string her up or throw her in prison for a decade, and he made a choice to try and save her from a bad element. No one at this point would have thought that bad element would’ve turned into a hero 

it would almost be like falling for someone that had a rough time kicking a habit and then her ex comes around getting her involved all over again, then turning that ex drug dealer in to the authorities to keep her clean

If Bix had just explained everything and that she was getting the bad element removed completely from the picture, then he may not have even contacted the authorities.

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1 hour ago, Big s said:

I don’t know. I kinda feel like he knew about the other stuff going on as well when he made the call. He basically took her and gave her a life where she wouldn’t necessarily have to resort to crime anymore. And then this walking anus tries to drag her back into that life. They know that the empire could easily just string her up or throw her in prison for a decade, and he made a choice to try and save her from a bad element. No one at this point would have thought that bad element would’ve turned into a hero 

it would almost be like falling for someone that had a rough time kicking a habit and then her ex comes around getting her involved all over again, then turning that ex drug dealer in to the authorities to keep her clean

If Bix had just explained everything and that she was getting the bad element removed completely from the picture, then he may not have even contacted the authorities.

I hadn't considered Timm's actions in that light, but you make a fair point. Considering how many people to whom Andor owes money, and being a seemingly small community, it's no secret that Andor's shady. In that light Timm's betrayal is his way of saving Bix from Cassian's shenanigans. 

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3 hours ago, Big s said:

I don’t know. I kinda feel like he knew about the other stuff going on as well when he made the call. He basically took her and gave her a life where she wouldn’t necessarily have to resort to crime anymore. And then this walking anus tries to drag her back into that life. They know that the empire could easily just string her up or throw her in prison for a decade, and he made a choice to try and save her from a bad element. No one at this point would have thought that bad element would’ve turned into a hero 

it would almost be like falling for someone that had a rough time kicking a habit and then her ex comes around getting her involved all over again, then turning that ex drug dealer in to the authorities to keep her clean

If Bix had just explained everything and that she was getting the bad element removed completely from the picture, then he may not have even contacted the authorities.

Well said. 
 

Chris

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14 hours ago, Big s said:

I don’t know. I kinda feel like he knew about the other stuff going on as well when he made the call. He basically took her and gave her a life where she wouldn’t necessarily have to resort to crime anymore. And then this walking anus tries to drag her back into that life. They know that the empire could easily just string her up or throw her in prison for a decade, and he made a choice to try and save her from a bad element. No one at this point would have thought that bad element would’ve turned into a hero 

Eh... I doubt his motives were anything like noble.  He seems like a standard jealous, possessive meathead.

From what we know about the community on Ferrix, there was really no way that things were going to end well for Timm by tipping the authorities off about Cassian.  Once it came out that he was the one who informed on Cassian, guilty or not, he was going to be an outcast on Ferrix for dropping dime on Cassian in a town that's very anti-authority and it'd be pretty likely that Bix would dump him when she found out he weaponized the Pre-Mor security forces against her friend out of jealousy.  That's assuming Cassian didn't take it very personally.  If Cassian really is a murderer, then he's just earned the enmity of a killer.  If he's not, Cassian's still enough of a thug to at least beat the sh*t out of him for it.

Of course, he instead triggered the worst possible scenario since he got the whole town involved and indirectly endangered both Bix and her contact by informing on Cassian while he was trying to flog stolen Imperial hardware to her contact.  Bix got arrested for behaving suspiciously out of panic, and like an idiot he charged a squad of armed and more than slightly twitchy Pre-Mor security forces in a blind rage and immediately got shot dead.  Worse, because Cassian and his contact had to shoot their way out and fleet the planet, the incident ended up attracting Imperial attention.  Preox-Morlana lost governing control of the sector, and the Imperial jackboot came down firmly on the necks of everyone living on Ferrix... putting Bix and the shop owner in danger as rebel agents and at risk of capture and torture.

Gotta hand it to him, as unwitting instigators of doom go... few are as unwitting, or witless, as Timm.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... I doubt his motives were anything like noble.  He seems like a standard jealous, possessive meathead.

I think anyone would be a bit protective of their fiancé as soon as the scum of the Earth, sorry Ferrix showed up. Up until that point Timm seemed respected by other characters including Bix. And he probably just expected the security to just escort Casian to jail. To be fair Bix didn’t seem to like Casian that much either and even after turning him in probably would’ve eventually forgiven him.

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9 minutes ago, Big s said:

I think anyone would be a bit protective of their fiancé as soon as the scum of the Earth, sorry Ferrix showed up.

Eh... if Cassian had been established to be the #1 scumbag on Ferrix I could see it.  But he's not.  

As scum goes, he's some pretty weak stuff by Star Wars standards.  He's presented as someone who's generally well-liked on Ferrix despite having a reputation for being a party boy and a bit on the unreliable side.  His closest friends seem to be aware, or at least suspect, that he engages in the occasional bit of thievery to make ends meet.  He's been to prison once before, but nobody seems particularly fussed by that (since his crime was apparently assaulting Imperial troops who'd just executed several Ferrix citizens for trivial reasons).  

 

9 minutes ago, Big s said:

Up until that point Timm seemed respected by other characters including Bix. And he probably just expected the security to just escort Casian to jail. To be fair Bix didn’t seem to like Casian that much either and even after turning him in probably would’ve eventually forgiven him.

TBH, I'm not sure I'd say that Cassian or Bix really respected Timm.

Cassian definitely doesn't seem to think much of Timm.  He's pretty dismissive of him when Timm gets possessive about Bix after Cassian comes to see her about a seller for his stolen starpath unit, more or less blowing him off.

Bix, for her part, shows a fair amount of frustration with Timm who she clearly keeps entirely in the dark about her involvement with Luthen's network of rebel agents.

I'd say Timm doesn't really respect Bix either, since he definitely doesn't seem to trust her around other men (e.g. Cassan) and is shown following her around town when she goes out and even doing creepy sh*t like watching her sleep from a chair beside the bed.  His jealous, possessive behavior clearly irritates Bix and Cassian seems to find his attempts at posturing funny.

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On 10/26/2022 at 10:15 PM, Duke Togo said:

There are no filler episodes in this show. 

Filler, especially in a community based around an anime like ours, has a very specific definition: anime-original content that was added by the animators so that the source material could catch up (or for other, similar, often production-related reasons). By definition, it has to have no consequences to the ongoing plot.

Spoiler

Given that off-brand fascist Claire Danes is on Ferrix working her way through Cassian's friends and acquaintances, I wouldn't count out the idea that the Ferrix worldbuilding ends up being for nothing.

It just bugs me when people use 'filler' to mean 'I didn't like this' or 'this bored me' when talking about an original work.

On 10/27/2022 at 9:42 PM, Seto Kaiba said:
Spoiler

There's certainly a sound argument to be made that shooting Skeen, a man who by any rational standard will be missed or mourned by exactly nobody, dead out of disgust is a great deal safer than betraying Luthen and risking him... expressing his irritation... through an immense galaxy-spanning network of spies, saboteurs, infiltrators, insurrectionists, violent anarchists, and terrorists who would all very much like to have 40 million credits to bankroll their war against the Empire.

Spoiler

And yet he seems to have earned the enmity of Luthen's network anyway.

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2 minutes ago, MikeRoz said:
Spoiler

And yet he seems to have earned the enmity of Luthen's network anyway.

True, though that seems to be entirely because...

Spoiler

... he's not a card-carrying Rebel and he's actually seen Luthen's face.

 

4 minutes ago, MikeRoz said:

By definition, it has to have no consequences to the ongoing plot.

So, most of the first two episodes then?  Cassian Andor's walking tour of Ferrix really has nothing at all to do with the story outside of a few brief stops to try to establish an alibi.

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We're what... 8 episodes into this show. I'm not finding Andor's story terribly interesting. I don't see him more than as a hired gun/blunt instrument. Is he supposed to be more? If so, is that gonna happen anytime soon? There are moments but the overall feeling I'm getting is he's just the weapon to the Mon Mothma/Luthen-story (and Andor just has the darndest of luck). I'm getting more satisfaction watching Mon Mothma/Luthen's stories than Andor's.

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2 hours ago, azrael said:

We're what... 8 episodes into this show. I'm not finding Andor's story terribly interesting. I don't see him more than as a hired gun/blunt instrument. Is he supposed to be more? If so, is that gonna happen anytime soon? There are moments but the overall feeling I'm getting is he's just the weapon to the Mon Mothma/Luthen-story (and Andor just has the darndest of luck). I'm getting more satisfaction watching Mon Mothma/Luthen's stories than Andor's.

I kinda agree. They still haven’t exactly explained why he was so important to recruit very well. I get the points they’ve made, but it doesn’t seem like any of those reasons were enough. Maybe he’ll show more of his potential later

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9 hours ago, azrael said:

We're what... 8 episodes into this show. I'm not finding Andor's story terribly interesting. I don't see him more than as a hired gun/blunt instrument. Is he supposed to be more? If so, is that gonna happen anytime soon?

At this point in the story?  I don't think so.

As per Star Wars's usual idiom, the story of Cassian Andor (incl. Rogue One) is shaping up as a tale told in three distinct parts generally aligned to Joseph Campbell's "hero's journey" monomyth.  To break it down in those terms:

  • Act 1: Departure - The events that drive Cassian Andor to join the fledgling Rebel Alliance.
    • 1A: The Call to Adventure: We see Cassian living a normal life on Ferrix until his actions on Morlana One catch up to him and Luthen rescues him as he is attempting to arrange passage offworld.
    • 1B: Refusal of the Call: Luthen attempts to recruit Cassian into the Rebellion after fleeing Ferrix, and Cassian refuses.
    • 1C: Supernatural Aid: Not supernatural in this case, but you count either Nemik's thesis or Luthen's kyber pendant as the talisman from a mentor that sets Cassian on his path.  That and the promise of a LOT of money.
    • 1D: Crossing of the First Threshold: Cassian participates in the Rebel raid on the Aldhani garrison's vault to steal the sector payroll.
    • 1E: The Belly of the Whale: Cassian is arrested for unrelated crimes he did not actually commit, and serves a sentence in the Imperial labor camp on Narkina V. <- YOU ARE HERE
  • Act 2: Initiation - Cassian's time as a Rebel intelligence officer
  • Act 3: Return - Cassian's final act as a Rebel soldier (Rogue One)

 

9 hours ago, azrael said:

There are moments but the overall feeling I'm getting is he's just the weapon to the Mon Mothma/Luthen-story (and Andor just has the darndest of luck). I'm getting more satisfaction watching Mon Mothma/Luthen's stories than Andor's.

Right now, he is just Luthen and Mon Mothma's weapon.

It'll likely be in the near future that Cassian becomes a self-wielding weapon.

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My review of the latest episode from just one scene. Maybe spoiler? Brought to you by the lyrics of White Snake:

Is this love that I'm feeling?
Is this the love that I've been searching for?
Is this love or am I dreaming?
This must be love
Cause it's really got a hold on me
A hold on me

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Dude lives with his mom, has Javert-level obsessions with Cassian, scores about 0 on the “how to be subtle and discreet” scale, has a mom who would be the absolute worst mother-in-law from hell. . . 

. . . 

BOYFRIEND MATERIAL!!!!! :rofl:

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28 minutes ago, Roy Focker said:

My review of the latest episode from just one scene. Maybe spoiler? Brought to you by the lyrics of White Snake:

Is this love that I'm feeling?
Is this the love that I've been searching for?
Is this love or am I dreaming?
This must be love
Cause it's really got a hold on me
A hold on me

18 minutes ago, Mog said:

Dude lives with his mom, has Javert-level obsessions with Cassian, scores about 0 on the “how to be subtle and discreet” scale, has a mom who would be the absolute worst mother-in-law from hell. . . 

. . . 

BOYFRIEND MATERIAL!!!!! :rofl:

OK, now I'm impatient to watch the episode to figure out WTF the context behind this is.

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5 hours ago, Mog said:

Dude lives with his mom, has Javert-level obsessions with Cassian, scores about 0 on the “how to be subtle and discreet” scale, has a mom who would be the absolute worst mother-in-law from hell. . . 

. . . 

BOYFRIEND MATERIAL!!!!! :rofl:

How do you know she doesn’t live with her parents as well and also loves a bowl of Trix cereal 

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ISB middle management salary and all those Imperial frequent flyer miles probably means she’s independent.

Plus, I suspect she’s the type of person that would turn her parents in, if they do so much as look at her wrong.

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Another solid episode for me, though I was surprised nothing big happened. Usually the 3rd episode of each 3 episode block seemed to be the action episode. I wonder if they are saving for something special in the last 3 episodes…more than just the prison break. Man I really love this show. Too bad it seems to be getting overlooked.

Chris

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OK, "Nobody's Listening!"... that seems like a super-plausible thing to say when something like 1/2 the cast is either currently or about to be involved in the business of espionage.  The walls have ears.  Eyes too.  Hell, Jabba's front door could talk... and the less conventional alien anatomy means the walls might have a few other organs of questionable and/or indeterminate purpose!

Good thing this ain't Star Trek: Discovery, or they'd have to title it "Nobody's Watching!".

Spoiler

Oh boy, we're back to Lt. Meero and Bix!  Lt. Meero takes her time explaining that unlike her colleagues, she's a goose-stepping fascist with work ethic.  She lays out her case against the store owner, and how his resistance to the casual interrogation meant they got to let their doctor (read: torturer) try his hand.  Now she's in the hot seat and she's apparently the topic of interest as the only one who uses the hidden radio system.  She's allegedly had six face-to-face meetings with "the buyer" (Luthen).

Back on Narkina V, Cassian seems to still be thoroughly embroiled in the game-ified labor camp he's been sentenced to.  One of his table-mates is nearing the end of his time in the camp.  

Apparently there's a new and novel torture method that involves playing back audio recordings of a planetary population being massacred by Imperial troops that Bix is going to be subjected to.  Seems like a bad time.  Mind you, it's hard to get invested in her plight because she's such a minor character she's had almost no development and has no significant role in the story thus far.

Cassian's planning a prison break.  Something to do with tampering with conduits behind the wall in the unit's toilet?  He's pretty damned blase about it, talking about trying to attack the guards within earshot of the guards.  He's a very lucky boy that the Imperials are too damned arrogant to pay attention.

A real bad time indeed... seems like they're gonna hang the store owner and keep Bix as a witness who can potentially identify Luthen.

Mon Mothma continues to waste her time in the Senate, talking to a mostly-empty chamber.  She's apparently unpopular enough that she's even got hecklers as she tries to deliver another dull speech.

Vel is Mon Mothma's cousin?  Or pretending to be Mon Mothma's cousin to give a report in person?  

Cassian's talking to his room supervisor and a few others about breaking out.  He's arguing that the Imperials don't care enough about the population there to monitor their conversations.

Meero is dancing back and forth between Entertainingly Wrong and Dangerously Genre Savvy in her report to Major Partagaz.  They've just tentatively linked Cassian to the Aldhani raid he actually did participate in, apparently based on visual identification from some of the surviving guards.  They've got Maarva under surveilance as bait in case Cassian comes back to try and get her.

Cassian's crew are headed into work and word reaches them that the Imperials apparently executed two entire shifts for a room for some reason.

Syril Karn's enduring another... lovely... meal with his mother and announces he's been promoted?  

Mon Mothma's house continues to be a fountain of WASP-ish snark.  Her husband's giving Vel the christmas cake treatment.

Karn is... stalking Meero now?  Delightful.  He's got a crush on her or something?  Wow... 

Mon Mothma's banker friend is giving her the bad news that he hasn't been able to cover up all of the suspicious accounting she's done to bankroll the Rebellion.  He's talked to a kind of shady loan shark or banker about getting a loan to cover up the vast sum of money.

The Imperials caught a Rebel pilot with stolen Imperial equipment at random.  It's one of the guys from the group Luthen was pitching to Saw Gererra an episode or two ago.  They arrange to kill him and make it look like an accident so the rebels won't get suspicious that the Imperials know about the attack they're planning. 

Looks like the elderly worker at Cassian's table is ill.  He's had a massive stroke and is dying, so the unit doctor euthenizes him.  The doctor confesses that the reason there was a disturbance on floor two that led to an entire room getting fried is that word got around from someone who'd been released and was sent back in to a different floor, leading to word getting around that nobody's actually getting out.

 

All in all, a light episode full of mostly inconsequential goings-on that feels kind of scattered and directionless.  They're building up to several different somethings this time, but it's spread so thin it doesn't build tension as effectively as the previous story arcs did.

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