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Macross II Lovers Again could have on pair with DYRL with some changes.


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I rewatched it again, and I see a lot of potential that could have made it much much better. What I like the best about it, is it's use of the love song theme like DYRL. It's good, but with some changes it would have been as good as DYRL. What I would have changed:

-Hibiki is not a reporter, but a Veritech fighter. 

-Story will be set more on the Gloria.  

-Mardook do not have those tatoos on their faces. They will be 8 feet tall and have cybernetic implant instead. 

-Mardook origin will be a surviving militant faction of Protoculture and be the Supervision Army. 

-Lord Emperor Ingeus will have a more cybernetic grotesque look. 

-The Zentraedi standard battle pods will be repainted to dark blue color, and have two legs. I'm gonna rip a bit off from MOESPEADA Inbit trooper and use similar legs on the pods. The command pods will not be repainted, but have legs as well. 

-The Variable Mardook fighter will be repainted to dark green. 

-Have gore. 

-Love triangle between Silvia, Ishtar and Hibiki. 

-See the UN Zentraedi forces fighting the Mardook. 

 

 

 

Edited by Invid99
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35 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

I rewatched it again, and I see a lot of potential that could have made it much much better. What I like the best about it, is it's use of the love song theme like DYRL. It's good, but with some changes it would have been as good as DYRL. What I would have changed:

So... this is another thread in which you complain that Macross's writers took its story in new and different directions instead of lamely rehashing the same story over and over again like a certain other series we don't talk about here? 

:rolleyes:

Disregarding all the points that are just that...

 

 

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-Hibiki is not a reporter, but a Veritech fighter. 

... a what now?  

Isn't that what The Show That Must Not Be Named calls its transformable aircraft?  You want him to be a plane?  Turbo Teen, but in space? :shok:

(The proper term for which is "Variable Fighter", or "Valkyrie" for short.)

 

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-Mardook origin will be a surviving militant faction of Protoculture and be the Supervision Army. 

Macross II: Lovers Again follows on from Macross: Do You Remember Love? with interquels Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song.  The Supervision Army does not exist in that version of the story.  In DYRL?, the Meltrandi are the hostile power the Zentradi have been at war with for 500,000 years.  Instead of being along socio-political lines, the war was on gender lines.

Mind you, the Mardook are already strongly implied to be a surviving group of Protoculture like those mentioned in DYRL?.

 

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-Love triangle between Silvia, Ishtar and Hibiki. 

... it already has that.

 

Quote

-See the UN Zentraedi forces fighting the Mardook. 

Ugh... I know that a racially-segregated military was apparently something the writers of The Show That Must Not Be Named were OK with, but Macross is a bit more with the times.

In Macross, the Zentradi who remained on Earth after the First Space War integrated peacefully into society after a brief period of adjustment and unrest.  The UN Forces in Macross II are full of Zentradi and part-Zentradi serving alongside Humans in the same units.  Most look utterly indistinguishable from Humans.  Sylvie is one, for instance.  She's a quarter-Meltran and mentions as much.  The UN Forces did have a VF called the "Zentradi Valkyrie", but it was as much a proof of concept for the VF-2 series as it was a VF meant to assist new Zentradi defectors in adapting to the UN Forces gear and it was not a unit exclusive to Zentradi pilots (rather, it was based heavily on newly-captured Zentradi tech).  The UN Forces continue to use captured Zentradi ships because why throw away a perfectly good ship whose crew had defected?

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So... this is another thread in which you complain that Macross's writers took its story in new and different directions instead of lamely rehashing the same story over and over again like a certain other series we don't talk about here? 

:rolleyes:

Disregarding all the points that are just that...

 

 

... a what now?  

Isn't that what The Show That Must Not Be Named calls its transformable aircraft?  You want him to be a plane?  Turbo Teen, but in space? :shok:

(The proper term for which is "Variable Fighter", or "Valkyrie" for short.)

 

Macross II: Lovers Again follows on from Macross: Do You Remember Love? with interquels Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song.  The Supervision Army does not exist in that version of the story.  In DYRL?, the Meltrandi are the hostile power the Zentradi have been at war with for 500,000 years.  Instead of being along socio-political lines, the war was on gender lines.

Mind you, the Mardook are already strongly implied to be a surviving group of Protoculture like those mentioned in DYRL?.

 

... it already has that.

 

Ugh... I know that a racially-segregated military was apparently something the writers of The Show That Must Not Be Named were OK with, but Macross is a bit more with the times.

In Macross, the Zentradi who remained on Earth after the First Space War integrated peacefully into society after a brief period of adjustment and unrest.  The UN Forces in Macross II are full of Zentradi and part-Zentradi serving alongside Humans in the same units.  Most look utterly indistinguishable from Humans.  Sylvie is one, for instance.  She's a quarter-Meltran and mentions as much.  The UN Forces did have a VF called the "Zentradi Valkyrie", but it was as much a proof of concept for the VF-2 series as it was a VF meant to assist new Zentradi defectors in adapting to the UN Forces gear and it was not a unit exclusive to Zentradi pilots (rather, it was based heavily on newly-captured Zentradi tech).  The UN Forces continue to use captured Zentradi ships because why throw away a perfectly good ship whose crew had defected?

What do you think about the other points I brought up? 

Sorry for mixing with the series nobody want to talk about. I simply mixed with Veritech and Valkyrie very often. 

About the Zentraedi UN fighting the Mardook. I just wanted to see them using outdated Regult battle pods and power suit against the more advanced ones from the Mardook. 

 

Edited by Invid99
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1 hour ago, Invid99 said:

Sorry for mixing with the series nobody want to talk about. I simply mixed with Veritech and Valkyrie very often.

There's an easy fix to that:  just call them all "VF"  (as in Variable Fighter, their technical name.  Valkyrie is their nickname.)

 

Quote

About the Zentraedi UN fighting the Mardook. I just wanted to see them using outdated Regult battle pods and power suit against the more advanced ones from the Mardook. 

I understand.  However, look at it from a story telling point of view: the Zentraadi have defected, and most of them don't want to use the Rigaado anymore (and why should they?  They've defected and have access to much stronger, and—more importantly—more comfortable war machines.)

What about a Mardook fleet attacking a Zentraadi Main Fleet that hasn't come into contact with humans yet?  That could be the pre-credits sequence that establishes how powerful the Mardook are, in addition to vilifying them as they brainwash captured Zentraadi soldiers and turn them into cannon fodder troops.

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15 minutes ago, sketchley said:

There's an easy fix to that:  just call them all "VF"  (as in Variable Fighter, their technical name.  Valkyrie is their nickname.)

 

I understand.  However, look at it from a story telling point of view: the Zentraadi have defected, and most of them don't want to use the Rigaado anymore (and why should they?  They've defected and have access to much stronger, and—more importantly—more comfortable war machines.)

What about a Mardook fleet attacking a Zentraadi Main Fleet that hasn't come into contact with humans yet?  That could be the pre-credits sequence that establishes how powerful the Mardook are, in addition to vilifying them as they brainwash captured Zentraadi soldiers and turn them into cannon fodder troops.

That's a good idea! 

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2 hours ago, Invid99 said:

About the Zentraedi UN fighting the Mardook. I just wanted to see them using outdated Regult battle pods and power suit against the more advanced ones from the Mardook. 

Y'see... the thing about the mecha that the ancient Protoculture designed for the Zentradi is that they didn't consider the Zentradi operators people.  They were expendable biological military hardware, so little things like survivability or operator comfort either weren't on the priority list at all or were pretty far down.  Some, like the Nousjadeul-Ger, require bio-tech implants in order to operate properly while others, like the Regult, are noted to be horribly uncomfortable.  (It kinda says a lot that the Mardook variants have demonstrably superior ergonomics, even though the Mardook also treat their Zentradi as eminently disposable.)

The Earth UN Forces don't see their Zentradi officers and enlisted men as expendable.  They're people, not equipment, and most of them were born and raised on Earth like any of their Human colleagues.  With limited resources, survivability is much more of a priority.  Especially against an enemy that will always have numerical superiority.  So the UN Forces prioritize survivability... and most Zentradi mecha come up short in that department.  Valkyries and Destroids are simply more practical and effective in that regard.   Massive losses among an all-volunteer armed force are hard to replace, and most Earth-born Zentradi would probably be unwilling to put up with the ergonomic nightmare that the old Zentradi mecha represent (or submit themselves to surgery to operate some of them).

 

 

30 minutes ago, sketchley said:

There's an easy fix to that:  just call them all "VF"  (as in Variable Fighter, their technical name.  Valkyrie is their nickname.)

Apparently this is called a "proprietary eponym"... when the name of a specific instance of a thing becomes the generic term (e.g. "Kleenex" for facial tissue).

 

30 minutes ago, sketchley said:

What about a Mardook fleet attacking a Zentraadi Main Fleet that hasn't come into contact with humans yet?  That could be the pre-credits sequence that establishes how powerful the Mardook are, in addition to vilifying them as they brainwash captured Zentraadi soldiers and turn them into cannon fodder troops.

It's likely they don't need to... they're heavily implied to be Protoculture themselves, they have what amounts to a main fleet-scale force that's technologically superior to what the Zentradi are fielding, and they've got an equally-advanced mobile fortress running the show.  Odds are they probably have the production capacity to sustain and expand their Zentradi forces without needing to attack Zentradi main fleets.

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

most Earth-born Zentradi would probably be unwilling to put up with the ergonomic nightmare that the old Zentradi mecha represent (or submit themselves to surgery to operate some of them).

Unless it is the Q. Rau. Then they add a gun and call it a Q. Rhea.
In fairness, that IS a bit like comparing a BMW to a Model T.

 

 

 

On-topic!

8 hours ago, Invid99 said:

What I would have changed:

As you offer no explanation for WHY you would make these changes or how they would improve the show, I am left to infer intent. I offer my thoughts on several points, but feel free to enlighten me.

 

7 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Hibiki is not a reporter, but a Veritech fighter. 

Why make him a fighter pilot? That is not a minor detail. Changing the main character's background and personality so drastically results in rather significant changes to the entire show. I dare say that once all the repercussions of this change ripple through the narrative, there is a good chance it won't be recognizable as Macross II anymore.

 

7 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Mardook do not have those tatoos on their faces. They will be 8 feet tall and have cybernetic implant instead. 

-Lord Emperor Ingeus will have a more cybernetic grotesque look. 

Nah. Giant borg sounds kinda lame.

...

More thoughtfully, it undermines a core theme of the franchise at the time. The enemies in Macross, despite being aliens from the other end of the galaxy, are not freakish monsters that can't be understood. They are people, not too dissimilar from ourselves. While circumstance has put them at odds with humanity, there is common ground, and if everyone would stop shooting for two seconds and just talk to each other, there might not be a reason to fight in the first place. Making the aliens overtly human helps underscore this message.

 

Certainly, the idea that even "grotesque monsters" are, fundamentally, people like us is on-brand, one that's barely brushed against in DYRL, and saw only limited exploration in Seven(despite the latter's MUCH longer runtime). It is a concept worth exploring more.

But as with making Hibiki a soldier instead of a reporter, it is a major change that carries broad repercussions for the overall presentation(if not necessarily the narrative). Without a careful rework of the show, it will just serve to de-humanize the mardook, turning them into targets we can feel good about slaughtering wholesale because they "aren't really people". And that seems to be very un-Macross.

 

7 hours ago, Invid99 said:

 

-The Zentraedi standard battle pods will be repainted to dark blue color, and have two legs. I'm gonna rip a bit off from MOESPEADA Inbit trooper and use similar legs on the pods. The command pods will not be repainted, but have legs as well. 

-The Variable Mardook fighter will be repainted to dark green. 

 

To what purpose? Paint schemes and robot legs are minor cosmetic tweaks that seem to not make much of a difference either way. I am open to an explanation, but see no way this can make the show better OR worse, just... slightly different, but not in any meaningful way.

 

Let's point the lens elsewhere briefly to illustrate.  Would the original Gundam look better in monochrome as originally intended instead of the crayola accident forced upon the production by sponsors? Absolutely! But would it make that series better or worse in any way other than the most superficially meaningless? Not really, no.

 

8 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Have gore. 

Again, to what purpose? We spent basically all of the 90s determining that gore won't make a bad thing good, and a good thing isn't inherently improved by the inclusion of gore. It could emphasize the brutality of war, but since you also want to dehumanize the presentation of the mardook, I assume that is not your purpose. In light of that, I see no creative reason for adding viscera, it is just "because it is kool and edgy".

 

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1 hour ago, JB0 said:

On-topic!

As you offer no explanation for WHY you would make these changes or how they would improve the show, I am left to infer intent. I offer my thoughts on several points, but feel free to enlighten me.

 

Why make him a fighter pilot? That is not a minor detail. Changing the main character's background and personality so drastically results in rather significant changes to the entire show. I dare say that once all the repercussions of this change ripple through the narrative, there is a good chance it won't be recognizable as Macross II anymore.

 

The story can still be the same with Hibiki finding Ishtar and developing their relationship, but just in a military pov setting. 

 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

Nah. Giant borg sounds kinda lame.

...

More thoughtfully, it undermines a core theme of the franchise at the time. The enemies in Macross, despite being aliens from the other end of the galaxy, are not freakish monsters that can't be understood. They are people, not too dissimilar from ourselves. While circumstance has put them at odds with humanity, there is common ground, and if everyone would stop shooting for two seconds and just talk to each other, there might not be a reason to fight in the first place. Making the aliens overtly human helps underscore this message.

 

Certainly, the idea that even "grotesque monsters" are, fundamentally, people like us is on-brand, one that's barely brushed against in DYRL, and saw only limited exploration in Seven(despite the latter's MUCH longer runtime). It is a concept worth exploring more.

This is just my personal taste on aesthetics. I don't think they would look Borg lame if you are referring to them from Star Trek? 

Mardook don't need to look exactly like the Borg. I would replace the weird tatoos with cybernetic implants. 

 

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

To what purpose? Paint schemes and robot legs are minor cosmetic tweaks that seem to not make much of a difference either way. I am open to an explanation, but see no way this can make the show better OR worse, just... slightly different, but not in any meaningful way.

 

Let's point the lens elsewhere briefly to illustrate.  Would the original Gundam look better in monochrome as originally intended instead of the crayola accident forced upon the production by sponsors? Absolutely! But would it make that series better or worse in any way other than the most superficially meaningless? Not really, no.

 

Again, to what purpose? We spent basically all of the 90s determining that gore won't make a bad thing good, and a good thing isn't inherently improved by the inclusion of gore. It could emphasize the brutality of war, but since you also want to dehumanize the presentation of the mardook, I assume that is not your purpose. In light of that, I see no creative reason for adding viscera, it is just "because it is kool and edgy".

 

Both suggestions are just my personal taste. About the gore, I'm a horror fan so I like edgy animes. 

Edited by Invid99
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12 hours ago, JB0 said:

Unless it is the Q. Rau. Then they add a gun and call it a Q. Rhea.
In fairness, that IS a bit like comparing a BMW to a Model T.

Eh... the Battle Suits are a lot more ergonomically sound and had better overall performance and survivability than, say, the Regult.

That said, that's also a different timeline altogether where the direct interface with the pilot's nervous system isn't a thing so there's one less barrier to entry there.  The New UN Forces in the main Macross timeline kept the Queadluun series around because of its high flight performance, but insisted on heavily modernizing it to improve its survivability with beefed-up armor, redundant control circuits, and other enhancements.

Whereas in Macross II, the UN Forces simply incorporated the technology obtained from battle suits into their next-generation VFs to beef up their performance... which is where they got the proof-of-concept "Zentradi Valkyrie" that became the common ancestor to the VF-2 series.

 

12 hours ago, JB0 said:

As you offer no explanation for WHY you would make these changes or how they would improve the show, I am left to infer intent. I offer my thoughts on several points, but feel free to enlighten me.

It's another R-word fan midlife crisis thread... like the necro-post in the topic about Macross II's tie-in games.

The essence of his "changes" are just wanting Macross II to be exactly like the original.

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23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

I rewatched it again, and I see a lot of potential that could have made it much much better. What I like the best about it, is it's use of the love song theme like DYRL. It's good, but with some changes it would have been as good as DYRL. What I would have changed:

-Hibiki is not a reporter, but a Veritech fighter. 

-Story will be set more on the Gloria.  

-Mardook do not have those tatoos on their faces. They will be 8 feet tall and have cybernetic implant instead. 

-Mardook origin will be a surviving militant faction of Protoculture and be the Supervision Army. 

-Lord Emperor Ingeus will have a more cybernetic grotesque look. 

-The Zentraedi standard battle pods will be repainted to dark blue color, and have two legs. I'm gonna rip a bit off from MOESPEADA Inbit trooper and use similar legs on the pods. The command pods will not be repainted, but have legs as well. 

-The Variable Mardook fighter will be repainted to dark green. 

-Have gore. 

-Love triangle between Silvia, Ishtar and Hibiki. 

-See the UN Zentraedi forces fighting the Mardook.

 

Okay, let's take this point by point (just my opinion folks, feel free to jump in should I veer off course)

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

I rewatched it again, and I see a lot of potential that could have made it much much better. What I like the best about it, is it's use of the love song theme like DYRL. It's good, but with some changes it would have been as good as DYRL. What I would have changed:

I'll match that with why I believe it should remain as is; personally the story works just fine. It doesn't need to be a SDFM clone.

 

Let's go-

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Hibiki is not a reporter, but a Veritech fighter. 

 The point of Hibiki being a reporter in the story is to present a character who is not "in sync" with the Unity Government,  but is seeking to uncover something he feels they are hiding (a new enemy that the Minmany Attack is not affecting, amongst others). It also presents a particular point about Hibiki in that he is willing to do anything at the beginning of MII to "get the story", and the character arc he experiences is about him growing as a person and seeing that there's more that just "the story". There is a reason the story needs to get to the people, and it's not just ratings.

Were Hibiki a military pilot, he would be much more conditioned to think along the lines of the military and most likely not question what was going on.

 

 

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Story will be set more on the Gloria.  

That would limit the story basically to the Gloria; it would basically remove any opportunity for Ishtar to learn of earth culture firsthand, as she would be a prisoner in the brig or medbay. It would also remove the pertinent plot points of how Zentraedi/ Meltranedi integrated into Terran society and how it has rebuilt. You'd have a discount version of SFDM basically, with no city to go to, and it would be far more limited in scope than even SDFM.

 

 

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Mardook do not have those tatoos on their faces. They will be 8 feet tall and have cybernetic implant instead. 

 While you're at it, just make them 30 feet tall, call them Exsedol, Vrlitwhai and Quamzin and have them hunt the Gloria to capture it and return it to the Masters...

 

 

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Mardook origin will be a surviving militant faction of Protoculture and be the Supervision Army. 

It's better for them to not have a clearly defined origin. Not everything must be explained...

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Lord Emperor Ingeus will have a more cybernetic grotesque look. 

Such as whom exactly... Boldolza? What would that serve, other than to induce the "vomit" factor?

There seems to be a thread of dehumanizing the Zentraedi (or any opposition in Macross) in your comments. Why is that? Is that so you can root for the "heroes" as they blast their way through endless hordes of "inhuman monsters who deserve to die"?

The entire point of Macross is that there is no need for war in the first place if we would all just SIT DOWN AND TALK.

This clip from Doctor Who pretty much gets the point across IMHO:

 I think Peter Capaldi's thoughts in this clip mirror how the story writers of Macross felt

 

 

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-The Zentraedi standard battle pods will be repainted to dark blue color, and have two legs. I'm gonna rip a bit off from MOESPEADA Inbit trooper and use similar legs on the pods. The command pods will not be repainted, but have legs as well. 

-The Variable Mardook fighter will be repainted to dark green. 

If you want these, simply watch SFDM.

  

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Have gore. 

Just no.

While combat and war inevitably involve the destruction of those living beings fighting in them, including gore just to demonstrate how bad it is is simply pointless. Large explosions, ship wreckage, lasers firing and missile clusters should get the point across, as most "remains" would be pretty much atomized. You're not going to get much in the way of Freddy Krueger or Jason Vorhees levels of "splatter" with energy weapons vaporizing folks like mud puddles on a warm summer's day.

On a different level, including viscera just for the "kewl" feature only serves to further dehumanize and render both sides as "meat for the meat grinder". Macross is not about that, but about there being commonality and the ability for different cultures to exist together. For the possibility of healing between former enemies, the repairing of old breeches and the restoration of barren landscapes. The purpose of the battle scenes is to show just how pointless war truly is, and the heartbreak and sorrow of losing people you deeply care for in them.

That is why Roy Fokker, Hayao Kakizaki, and several others died in SDFM and DYRL: to drive that point home clearly.

 

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-Love triangle between Silvia, Ishtar and Hibiki. 

That is there already (As Seito pointed out previously).

    

23 hours ago, Invid99 said:

-See the UN Zentraedi forces fighting the Mardook.

  They are...because they are integrated into the UN forces.

(I think Seito covered that already)

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think what you really want here is RT: The Beef-Stroganoff-Vat-Exploded-All-Over-The-Battlefield Edition:

Look for 3:54 on to get the idea :D

 

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8 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

It's better for them to not have a clearly defined origin. Not everything must be explained...

  

Such as whom exactly... Boldolza? What would that serve, other than to induce the "vomit" factor?

There seems to be a thread of dehumanizing the Zentraedi (or any opposition in Macross) in your comments. Why is that? Is that so you can root for the "heroes" as they blast their way through endless hordes of "inhuman monsters who deserve to die"?

The entire point of Macross is that there is no need for war in the first place if we would all just SIT DOWN AND TALK.

 

Just because I want the Mardook to look more grotesque doesn't mean I want to dehumanize them. I want them to look badass in my pov, because I like it. I'm a horror fan and I enjoy villains that has the ''inhuman'' look. 

11 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

 While you're at it, just make them 30 feet tall, call them Exsedol, Vrlitwhai and Quamzin and have them hunt the Gloria to capture it and return it to the Masters...

Despite me wanting them to be 8 feet tall and have cybernetic implants, their personality and storyline will be totally different than those mentioned characters. It's just the aesthetic I didn't like with the Mardook. Their mecha and ships however, I do like. Except for minor changes like colors and legs on the pods. 

 

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58 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

The point of Hibiki being a reporter in the story is to present a character who is not "in sync" with the Unity Government,  but is seeking to uncover something he feels they are hiding (a new enemy that the Minmany Attack is not affecting, amongst others). It also presents a particular point about Hibiki in that he is willing to do anything at the beginning of MII to "get the story", and the character arc he experiences is about him growing as a person and seeing that there's more that just "the story". There is a reason the story needs to get to the people, and it's not just ratings.

Hibiki's arc is even more than that, really.  

Yeah, he starts out as a (highly successful) celebrity scandal-chaser for SNN who gradually comes to appreciate the idea that journalist integrity and truth matter far more than simply having the latest hot take, but it's kind of a vehicle for something else.  His arc is almost a Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket-esque admonishment of the audience to remind them the war is not meant to be entertainment.  That it's brutal, horrible, unnecessary slaughter.  Hibiki wanted to be a journalist because he saw the heavily sanitized coverage of the Zentradi attack ten years prior, and when he's given permission to cover the Mardook attack he's excited.  Once he actually gets into the battle, he's freaking out because he can't conceive of or tolerate showing the UN Forces losing.  He has to gradually accept that war really is horrible and that it's not something that should be glamorized.  

 

58 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

That would limit the story basically to the Gloria; it would basically remove any opportunity for Ishtar to learn of earth culture firsthand, as she would be a prisoner in the brig or medbay. It would also remove the pertinent plot points of how Zentraedi/ Meltranedi integrated into Terran society and how it has rebuilt. You'd have a discount version of SFDM basically, with no city to go to, and it would be far more limited in scope than even SDFM.

That's a really good, really important point.

The Gloria is a flagship in one of the UN Spacy's defense fleets... but a warship is all it is.  It's not an emigrant ship.  It doesn't have a city built into it.  As you say, there wouldn't have been any opportunity for Ishtar to have the revelations about Earth's culture that she did if she were aboard a warship.  It also wouldn't have afforded her an opportunity to come into contact with the Macross itself, which is what convinced her that peace was possible.

 

1 hour ago, Invid99 said:

Just because I want the Mardook to look more grotesque doesn't mean I want to dehumanize them. I want them to look badass in my pov, because I like it. I'm a horror fan and I enjoy villains that has the ''inhuman'' look. 

So, yeah... you missed the point of Macross's story completely, even in the original series and DYRL?.

The moral here is that the antagonists - the Zentradi, Mardook, etc. - are Not So Different.  They're people with thoughts, feelings, etc. no different from the protagonists and war is an unfortunate result of the fear and misunderstandings that come from a failure to communicate with each other.

They're not evil and they're not monsters, and making them grotesques would take away from that.

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26 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Hibiki's arc is even more than that, really.  

Yeah, he starts out as a (highly successful) celebrity scandal-chaser for SNN who gradually comes to appreciate the idea that journalist integrity and truth matter far more than simply having the latest hot take, but it's kind of a vehicle for something else.  His arc is almost a Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket-esque admonishment of the audience to remind them the war is not meant to be entertainment.  That it's brutal, horrible, unnecessary slaughter.  Hibiki wanted to be a journalist because he saw the heavily sanitized coverage of the Zentradi attack ten years prior, and when he's given permission to cover the Mardook attack he's excited.  Once he actually gets into the battle, he's freaking out because he can't conceive of or tolerate showing the UN Forces losing.  He has to gradually accept that war really is horrible and that it's not something that should be glamorized. 

Excellent point; I had not considered that, but it is very true. Never saw War in the Pocket though :embarrassed:

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41 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So, yeah... you missed the point of Macross's story completely, even in the original series and DYRL?.

The moral here is that the antagonists - the Zentradi, Mardook, etc. - are Not So Different.  They're people with thoughts, feelings, etc. no different from the protagonists and war is an unfortunate result of the fear and misunderstandings that come from a failure to communicate with each other.

They're not evil and they're not monsters, and making them grotesques would take away from that.

But making them look grotesque is just making them look different and they still are people with thoughts and feeling. I don't mean to make them look like The Thing or Dead Space Necromorphs. Now I suggested they have cybernetic implants instead of the tatoos. Just for appearance. 

But seem I hit some people's nerves here, so I won't make another thread like this anymore. 

Edited by Invid99
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14 hours ago, Invid99 said:

But making them look grotesque is just making them look different and they still are people with thoughts and feeling. I don't mean to make them look like The Thing or Dead Space Necromorphs. Now I suggested they have cybernetic implants instead of the tatoos. Just for appearance. 

But seem I hit some people's nerves here, so I won't make another thread like this anymore. 

Your arguments and reasonings are very simplified and lack nuance other than your own opinions which you're entitled to have. Surely by posting a thread on this forum you were voicing an opinion to perhaps like minded individuals or to have a discussion with those that may disagree.

It would be within reason to say that those that don't agree with you can also voice their differences of opinion. Their reasonings are more detailed and nuanced than your own- not sure there's a nerve touched other than your own in this situation as they clearly dind't call you stupid or an idiot but instead corrected you in some of your statements and provided their own insights.

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18 hours ago, Invid99 said:

But making them look grotesque is just making them look different and they still are people with thoughts and feeling. I don't mean to make them look like The Thing or Dead Space Necromorphs. Now I suggested they have cybernetic implants instead of the tatoos. Just for appearance. 

But seem I hit some people's nerves here, so I won't make another thread like this anymore. 

I would direct you to read Falcon's post on this, as it sums up the situation succinctly:

4 hours ago, Falcon said:

Your arguments and reasonings are very simplified and lack nuance other than your own opinions which you're entitled to have. Surely by posting a thread on this forum you were voicing an opinion to perhaps like minded individuals or to have a discussion with those that may disagree.

It would be within reason to say that those that don't agree with you can also voice their differences of opinion. Their reasonings are more detailed and nuanced than your own- not sure there's a nerve touched other than your own in this situation as they clearly didn't call you stupid or an idiot but instead corrected you in some of your statements and provided their own insights.

As for my own opinion: I like Macross because it doesn't glorify war, and because it recognizes that the "enemy" is human and relatable after all. How that insults or threatens you is beyond me, but I suppose if it contradicts your opinion, it must be a threat to you.

Concerning my opinion on "gore": I have seen it in real life. I have seen death in real life as well. In my opinion, neither are "edgy" or anything that are exciting or "hard-core", especially when it causes nightmares and flashbacks (which are far from "entertaining"). Yet, that is merely my opinion.

Both of those are my expressions, just as much as your liking of horror and making the enemy are expressions of yours. But what I and others have been trying to tell you here is that there's a difference between what you think MII should have been, and what the creators of MII intended it to be and the message they were trying to get across.

Which is their opinion, and one they have just as much right to.

 

With all that, unless I find anything else new to add to this convo, I'm just going to read replies here and not say anything else.

 

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