Super Macross Mecha Fun Time Discussion Thread!

[Sir Galahad®]

What is the capacity of  each gunpod used. I mean I remember the VF-1's GU-11 Gunpod only stored around 200 bullets. And when you compare that to the VF-25 carrying a super pack with more than 200 missiles, it seems that the missiles outnumber the bullets now

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Sir Galahad® said:

What is the capacity of  each gunpod used. I mean I remember the VF-1's GU-11 Gunpod only stored around 200 bullets. And when you compare that to the VF-25 carrying a super pack with more than 200 missiles, it seems that the missiles outnumber the bullets now

The GU-11[A] and SSL-9B are the only gunpods with officially-stated magazine capacities.  The GU-11 held 180-200 rounds, and the SSL-9B has two magazines, one with 13 rounds and a drum with 35.

The only other one I know of that has a firm number put on it is Master File's number for the VF-19's GU-15[A] gunpod, which held 150 rounds per magazine, for 450 rounds total with the two spare magazines under the shield.

Beam gunpods naturally don't count, because the ones we know of do not have a fixed power supply... rather, they're powered off the fighter's reactor and will work as long as they receive sufficient power to fire.

RPG fan writers generally assume that ~150 rounds is typical for a gunpod magazine.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Unfortunately we don't even know what caliber the VF-19's gun pod is. My best guess is around a 40-50mm gun, considering that the 58mm gun that the VF-19EF was used to test require the airframe to be reinforced to handle the recoil stresses. The reason I bring it up, is because that will have a considerable effect on ammo capacity. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

Do we have any information on the Macross Quarter? For instance, how large is the crew? 

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Unfortunately we don't even know what caliber the VF-19's gun pod is. My best guess is around a 40-50mm gun, considering that the 58mm gun that the VF-19EF was used to test require the airframe to be reinforced to handle the recoil stresses. The reason I bring it up, is because that will have a considerable effect on ammo capacity. 

My money is on 40mm, since that was the emerging standard shortly before Project Super Nova kicked off.

Mind you, the difference there isn't necessarily just in caliber.  Muzzle velocity may also play into the extreme difference in firepower between the GU-15 and GU-17.

 

52 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Do we have any information on the Macross Quarter? For instance, how large is the crew? 

Nothing on the crew, just basic details of the ship's size, armament, and mecha complement.

ARMD-L is noted to have a capacity of 80 mecha, and presumably a maintenance crew appropriately large enough for that.  Crew sizes are one of the details that are almost never brought up, you usually have to either guesstimate or, as in the case of the Zentradi, work backwards from a larger figure like a total fleet population as I did when I discovered the average Zentradi ship's crew should be just a hair over 1,500 people.

[ManhattanProject972]

Where are the VF-31's backpack thrusters? 

Are they those little indents at the rear of the root of the wing structure? 

 

[Valkyrie Driver]

10 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Where are the VF-31's backpack thrusters? 

Are they those little indents at the rear of the root of the wing structure? 

Looking at my VF-31C toy, it would appear that's the case, however, they're probably not at all similar to the thrusters in the backpacks of the Valkyries prior to the VF-25. The VF-25 and VF-31 share some common design elements.

[SMS007]

I'm probably going to feel silly when I hear the obvious answer, but is there a specific recurring term in Macross for the head turrets on a battroid?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

I'm probably going to feel silly when I hear the obvious answer, but is there a specific recurring term in Macross for the head turrets on a battroid?

"Monitor turret"... though for simplicity, often just "the head".

Edited November 6, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

21 hours ago, ManhattanProject972 said:

Where are the VF-31's backpack thrusters? 

Are they those little indents at the rear of the root of the wing structure? 

Maybe.  We dunno.  Macross Delta's mecha are poorly documented on a level seldom seen in Macross as a whole.

Hopefully that will change, but I fear it will not.

[Podtastic]

On ‎2017‎/‎11‎/‎04 at 3:33 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

The GU-11[A] and SSL-9B are the only gunpods with officially-stated magazine capacities.  The GU-11 held 180-200 rounds, and the SSL-9B has two magazines, one with 13 rounds and a drum with 35.

The only other one I know of that has a firm number put on it is Master File's number for the VF-19's GU-15[A] gunpod, which held 150 rounds per magazine, for 450 rounds total with the two spare magazines under the shield.

Beam gunpods naturally don't count, because the ones we know of do not have a fixed power supply... rather, they're powered off the fighter's reactor and will work as long as they receive sufficient power to fire.

RPG fan writers generally assume that ~150 rounds is typical for a gunpod magazine.

Which means that, unlike the Zentraedi beam weapons, the battroids with these non-beam gunpods should run out of ammo very quickly.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Which means that, unlike the Zentraedi beam weapons, the battroids with these non-beam gunpods should run out of ammo very quickly.

Granted, a rotary gunpod will eventually run out of ammo... but most of them carry enough ammunition to dust several dozen battle pods or battle suits.

The reason rotary gunpods stuck around as long as they did is that they have the advantage of anti-energy conversion armor shells that negate the enhanced defensive ability of energy conversion armor.  A beam weapon used against a VF has to contend with an anti-beam ablative armor coating AND the strength of the energy conversion armor.  The rotary gunpod using HEACA shells is only working against a fraction of that armor strength and the high-explosive component of the shells detonates inside the target, which causes more damage.

It says a lot about the incredible stopping power of the rotary gunpods that the thing that eventually replaced them was a compact dimensional beam weapon.

[Valkyrie Driver]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Granted, a rotary gunpod will eventually run out of ammo... but most of them carry enough ammunition to dust several dozen battle pods or battle suits.

The reason rotary gunpods stuck around as long as they did is that they have the advantage of anti-energy conversion armor shells that negate the enhanced defensive ability of energy conversion armor.  A beam weapon used against a VF has to contend with an anti-beam ablative armor coating AND the strength of the energy conversion armor.  The rotary gunpod using HEACA shells is only working against a fraction of that armor strength and the high-explosive component of the shells detonates inside the target, which causes more damage.

It says a lot about the incredible stopping power of the rotary gunpods that the thing that eventually replaced them was a compact dimensional beam weapon.

Out of universe, actual guns sound way better than beam weapons (IMHO). It also serves to keep the feel grounded enough in reality to be believable. 

Also, were the HEACA rounds replaced by something else in Frontier? In order to combat the Vajra?

[Seto Kaiba]

50 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Also, were the HEACA rounds replaced by something else in Frontier? In order to combat the Vajra?

They're still around, the fleet just upgraded to a more powerful round intended specifically to counter the higher-powered energy conversion armor of the Vajra starting in ep7 of Macross Frontier.  They were later replaced with MDE shells, because the Vajra adapted.

[Valkyrie Driver]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

They're still around, the fleet just upgraded to a more powerful round intended specifically to counter the higher-powered energy conversion armor of the Vajra starting in ep7 of Macross Frontier.  They were later replaced with MDE shells, because the Vajra adapted.

So are MDE shells mini dimensional explosives?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

So are MDE shells mini dimensional explosives?

Yeah, MDE is short for Micro Dimension Eater... they're ultracompact dimensional warheads.  MDE beam weapons operate on similar principles, firing what amounts to a beam of microsingularities that collapse and pull matter around them into fold space.

[SMS007]

It occurs to me: from a realistic perspective Hávamál should have fielded VF-24s as their general model in Macross 30, seeing as they're special forces answering to central NUNS on Earth. And the YF-30 even broadly resembles the YF-24 parent design. 

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, SMS007 said:

It occurs to me: from a realistic perspective Hávamál should have fielded VF-24s as their general model in Macross 30, seeing as they're special forces answering to central NUNS on Earth. And the YF-30 even broadly resembles the YF-24 parent design. 

The VF-24 wouldn't be a special forces unit, it is the main Federal forces unit (presumably). Besides, the YF-29B is about on the same level at the speculated specs of the would-be VF-24 anyway, heh.

VF-24s in Federal NUNS forces would be involved mostly in tackling bigger picture problems than issues on specific planets... such as going to that giant rogue Zentradi fleet over there and.. making it go away.

[SMS007]

6 hours ago, Master Dex said:

The VF-24 wouldn't be a special forces unit, it is the main Federal forces unit (presumably). Besides, the YF-29B is about on the same level at the speculated specs of the would-be VF-24 anyway, heh.

VF-24s in Federal NUNS forces would be involved mostly in tackling bigger picture problems than issues on specific planets... such as going to that giant rogue Zentradi fleet over there and.. making it go away.

Well why wouldn't a special forces unit based out of Earth field elite gear? The YF-29 is supposed to be an experimental model; if everyone in Hávamál fielded one, then wouldn't that make it numerous enough to be considered a mass/limited production VF-29? Otherwise, why should Hávamál get stuck with inferior VF-19s or VF-22s as opposed to VF-24s?

[Master Dex]

It's more like they are using a fighter more suited to the job. It's pretty clear they don't need VF-24s there, and no one could have predicted an SMS ace in a tech demo plane would show up and thwart their evil plan with the aid of ALL the singers since Space War 1 to help, lol.

[Podtastic]

22 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Granted, a rotary gunpod will eventually run out of ammo... but most of them carry enough ammunition to dust several dozen battle pods or battle suits.

The reason rotary gunpods stuck around as long as they did is that they have the advantage of anti-energy conversion armor shells that negate the enhanced defensive ability of energy conversion armor.  A beam weapon used against a VF has to contend with an anti-beam ablative armor coating AND the strength of the energy conversion armor.  The rotary gunpod using HEACA shells is only working against a fraction of that armor strength and the high-explosive component of the shells detonates inside the target, which causes more damage.

It says a lot about the incredible stopping power of the rotary gunpods that the thing that eventually replaced them was a compact dimensional beam weapon.

Eventually? Even an R4 would chew through those 150 round mags in a few seconds.

What is their rate of fire?

[Valkyrie Driver]

5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Eventually? Even an R4 would chew through those 150 round mags in a few seconds.

What is their rate of fire?

I don't know if that's stated anywhere, but by sound alone I'm guessing somewhere in the ballpark of 1800-6600 rpm. That's going off of real world guns like the GAU-12 on the low end (1800-4200 rpm), the GAU-22/A at 3300rpm, the GAU-8/A at ~3900rpm, and the M61 on the high end at 6000-6600 rpm.  That's my best estimate, considering how much lead the guns can pump out. It seems that the caliber of the gun and the amount of barrels seem to have an effect on how fast the guns fire. That and the drive, but since VF gunpods have to operate in space, I'd assume the guns are electrically driven considering that there is no air in space for them to driven pneumatically, and hydraulics would be bulky due to the insulation that would be required to keep the fluid in a liquid state. 

[Seto Kaiba]

17 hours ago, SMS007 said:

It occurs to me: from a realistic perspective Hávamál should have fielded VF-24s as their general model in Macross 30, seeing as they're special forces answering to central NUNS on Earth. And the YF-30 even broadly resembles the YF-24 parent design. 

Ordinarily, yeah... you would think a special forces unit from the federal New UN Forces would be using the federal forces main fighter or a special forces variant thereof.  This, of course, probably wasn't possible for Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy because Kawamori never completed the YF-24 Evolution design.  He only did the fighter mode, though realistically it ought to look a good deal like a delta-wing VF-25 in all respects.

Looking at it from an in-universe perspective, the federal New UN Forces are likely still working on transitioning from their last main fighter to the VF-24.  The decision to adopt the YF-24 Evolution's design as the next main fighter was made in mid-2057, so there were probably relatively few units outfitted with the VF-24 in 2060.  The VF-X squadrons also don't necessarily use the latest fighters when there's a mission or performance advantage in using something older, like how the 727th IS VF-X Ravens' top ace in 2051 was using a ten year old VF-19A Excalibur instead of the newer and nominally higher-spec VF-19C, VF-19F, or VF-19S.  The 815th IS Hávamál had been operating out there in the galactic boonies for a while before the events of Macross 30, and they might not have had access to the unredacted VF-24A specification either due to communications difficulties due to the Uroboros Aurora fold fault or because Earth wasn't willing to transmit the unredacted specs of the VF-24A for security reasons.

Using their clout as a federal special forces unit, and Uroboros' substantial reserves of fold quartz, they secured the next best thing for their ace pilots... an uprated version of the only emigrant VF allegedly able to rival the VF-24, the YF-29.  They built them in numbers too, where the Frontier fleet government could only afford to build the one.  Hávamál's aces were all issued YF-29B's.

 

 

9 hours ago, SMS007 said:

The YF-29 is supposed to be an experimental model; if everyone in Hávamál fielded one, then wouldn't that make it numerous enough to be considered a mass/limited production VF-29?

The YF-29 would only graduate to a production design and become the VF-29 if it obtained official approval for production by the New UN Government.  Hávamál's limited production of the YF-29B likely either didn't count due to being unauthorized or was counted as a separate prototype run in light of the design changes between the initial YF-29 and YF-29B.

 

 

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Otherwise, why should Hávamál get stuck with inferior VF-19s or VF-22s as opposed to VF-24s?

Even with those "inferior" VF-19s and VF-22s, Hávamál still massively outgunned the local Uroboros New UN Forces garrison.  The planet's remoteness and isolation left the local NUNS more than a bit undermanned and under-equipped.  By 2060, the NUNS had been depending on Hávamál and their contracts with the Uroboros Hunters Guild to maintain planetary security and control the alliance of anti-government, terrorist, and pirate factions collectively known as bandits... all while unaware the ones supplying the bandits with weapons and logistical support were Hávamál themselves.

With the local NUNS being made up of less experienced pilots flying the aging VF-171-II Nightmare Plus, and the Hunters Guild being made up of amateurs, wannabes, and NUNS washouts using all manner of obsolete and replica VFs, there were only a handful of pilots on the entire planet who'd have stood a chance against ONE Hávamál ace, let alone the entire unit.  Uroboros Hunters Guild director Mei Leeron was too busy with contracts to stamp out bandit activity to sufficiently join up the dots and implicate Hávamál, and Aisha Blanchett's SMS branch office was so undermanned it operated as a privateer organization under the auspices of the Hunters Guild with its only other pilot besides Major Blanchett herself hospitalized due to a testing accident.

Without a large number of ace pilots being drawn to Uroboros by the effects of the Uroboros Aurora, Hávamál would have been able to mop up any potential opposition easily... and to be fair, even after they started appearing they probably felt they had the matter well in hand when they recruited (and blackmailed or brainwashed) most of them like Max and Milia Jenius, Gamlin Kizaki, D.D. Ivanov, Nora Polyansky, SMS Frontier's Skull and Pixie Platoons, etc.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Eventually? Even an R4 would chew through those 150 round mags in a few seconds.

What is their rate of fire?

Variable.  The GU-11A, for instance, had a maximum rate of fire of 1,200rpm but all indications are that its actual rate of fire was more like 180rpm most of the time to avoid precisely that problem.

The VF-0's GPU-9 gunpod had selectable rates of fire as low as 60rpm and as high as 2,500rpm.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Sir Galahad®]

How large are those micro missiles anyway that you could fit more than 200 in one aircraft?

[SMS007]

Is there precedent for Alto, Ozma, and Isamu's YF-29As (well the letter isn't there in the Macross 30 game but I assume it must be the case given the existence of the YF-29B) to be the same model but have differently-shaped battroid heads? 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Sir Galahad® said:

How large are those micro missiles anyway that you could fit more than 200 in one aircraft?

Well, there's a fair amount of variation in size between models of micro-missile... but as a helpful metric to envision how small they generally are, the Bifors HMM-1 micro-missile that was used on the VF-1 Valkyrie's under-wing missile pods and Super Pack is about a meter long and ~20cm in diameter.

No VF actually carries that many micro-missiles internally though.  The YF-29 Durandal is currently the VF with the largest official, explicitly-stated internal micro-missile capacity.  Between its twelve Bifors MBL-02S micro-missile launchers, it has a whopping 100 micro-missiles.  Mind you, I'd quite like to argue that only the four launchers on the outboard engine pods count as "internal" ones, in light of the fact that the eight launchers on the engine nacelles are essentially mounted in a semi-permanent conformal weapons pack rather than actually being internal to the nacelle.  The YF-30 Chronos is believed to have something like 108 micro-missiles in its ordnance container, but same deal... that's not really internal to the aircraft anymore.

Based on the explicit payload statements we have, an internal micro-missile launcher typically has somewhere between 3 and 6 missiles.

The external (FAST Pack) mounted ones... now all bets are off, since those have become enormous and the option pack portion itself is modular, meaning they can potentially adjust the interior of the pack to increase fuel capacity at the expense of missiles or vice versa.  For my money, it's not hard to believe that they could conceivably fit upwards of 90 micro-missiles in each option pack on the VF-25's NP-FAD-23 boosters.

 

2 hours ago, SMS007 said:

Is there precedent for Alto, Ozma, and Isamu's YF-29As (well the letter isn't there in the Macross 30 game but I assume it must be the case given the existence of the YF-29B) to be the same model but have differently-shaped battroid heads? 

Sort of?  It's not unheard-of for there to be some fairly radical differences in hardware between two prototypes in a development environment (e.g. the YF-19's changes in engines and the avionics AI software), but this doesn't seem to be quite the same thing.

The YF-29s in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy are treated like character customs in Macross Chronicle, the Macross 30 visual guide, etc.  Since even Alto's is technically a deviation from YF-29 base spec due to its rushed construction borrowing VF-25 parts, I would be inclined to classify the lot of them as YF-29改 (Custom) instead, similar to how the official coverage has them as "____'s aircraft".

[Valkyrie Driver]

The VF-1 had multiple models, but there were 4 serving concurrently (the A, J, S, and D), the VF-19 2nd production run had the E, F, and S serving concurrently, and the VF-25A/F/G/S served concurrently as well. Then there were the other valkyries like the VF-4, VF-11, and 1st production VF-19 that were more like real world aircraft models, where the model designations denoted major design changes or upgrades, and don't really serve concurrently in the same squadron.

I understand the storytelling reasons for having special models for the team leaders and squadron leaders to differentiate them from the mooks. I don't understand the practical reasons for it though...

[Valkyrie Driver]

Isn't the YF-29 the most heavily armed prime continuity Valkyrie thus far? 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

The VF-1 had multiple models, but there were 4 serving concurrently (the A, J, S, and D), [...]

Arguably just three... the VF-1A, VF-1J, and VF-1S.  The VF-1D variant was a rushed conversion of the VF-1A to make a training aircraft¹, and the design was retired and replaced by a proper training model (the VT-1) before the First Space War even ended².

Even the VF-1J's placement on the list is tenuous, since they were only produced in low volumes as a potential alternative to the VF-1A in the early blocks that never really "took off"³.  Some works like the DYRL? writeup and Macross II's continuity materials⁴ suggest that most ended up being used as Armored Pack units semi-permanently while the VF-1A and VF-1S did the heavy lifting.  There were some attempts to consolidate it down to one variant, like the VF-1B (Half-S), eventually succeeding with the VF-1X.

 

Quote

[...] the VF-19 2nd production run had the E, F, and S serving concurrently, [...]

Let's lop the -E off that, since sources can't even agree if the -E is a first or second production type.

When all's said and done, the VF-19 ended up with at least seven variants operating concurrently⁵, though no more than two at a time in any known location... inevitably in "grunt" and "command" versions.  Some forces were more reasonable, though, like Macross Galaxy's Pegasus Squadron, which was made up entirely of VF-19C/MG21s.

 

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[...] and the VF-25A/F/G/S served concurrently as well. [...]

To be fair, those at least had the good grace to all be design-optimized for different operational roles.

 

Quote

Then there were the other valkyries like the VF-4, VF-11, and 1st production VF-19 that were more like real world aircraft models, where the model designations denoted major design changes or upgrades, and don't really serve concurrently in the same squadron.

Ech... not quite.  The VF-4 had several variants that were in service simultaneously, though most were optimized for particular operational theaters similarly to the F-35⁶.  (Its known official variant list includes Air Force and Navy versions in addition to the all-regime/Spacy version.)

The VF-11's a better example of that, as is the VF-171, once you subtract out regional variations.

 

Quote

I understand the storytelling reasons for having special models for the team leaders and squadron leaders to differentiate them from the mooks. I don't understand the practical reasons for it though...

There are two potential real-world motivations I can think of.  One was an old wartime practical concern of giving the most experienced pilots the newest and best possible hardware that they'd have been best suited to making full use of.  The other would be the distinctly Japanese habit of having the larger flight platoon instead of pairs of aircraft, with the leader and most experienced pilot being expected to mentor and, to a certain extent, protect the less experienced pilots in his charge.

(It was also not unheard-of for experienced pilots to customize their aircraft back in the bad old days of the world wars, though customizations often focused more on defense rather than offense, such as the Soviets removing the wing guns from their lend-lease P-39s or the Japanese up-armoring the cockpits of their A6M Zeros to ensure that experienced pilots made it back alive.  Of course, the most storied example would be Baron Manfred von Richthofen's ace custom Albatross D.III with structural reinforcements.)

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Isn't the YF-29 the most heavily armed prime continuity Valkyrie thus far? 

Considering practically every one of its weapons is MDE?  Yes.

 

 

Spoiler

1. Per This is Animation the Select: Macross Plus, Macross Chronicle, etc.
2. Per This is Animation the Select: Macross Plus's Variable Fighter Aero Report and Squadrons gallery, which shows VT-1s with markings that indicate they served aboard ARMD-class ships that were sunk by Boddole Zer's main fleet in 2010.
3. Per Macross Chronicle and Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1
4. Per Master File, B-Club 79's VF History article
5. The VF-19A, VF-19C, VF-19EF, VF-19EFs, VF-19F, VF-19S, and VF-19P.
6. The VF-4A was the Spacy version, VF-4B was an attack and electronic warfare variant that doubled as a trainer, the VF-4C was the atmospheric Air Force type, with the VF-4D and VF-4S as Navy variants, and the VF-4G was the improved Spacy variant.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Sildani]

And a couple more: Oswald Boelcke flew in combat a Fokker Eindecker with THREE Spandau machine guns - it was so heavy and slow he gave it up after only a couple tries. Then there was Adolf Galland, who bitched so hard about the Franz-type Messerschmitt 109’s downgraded armament (lost a 20mm cannon compared to the previous Emil) that the factory sent him a special Franz model with the original armament. 

[Valkyrie Driver]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Arguably just three... the VF-1A, VF-1J, and VF-1S.  The VF-1D variant was a rushed conversion of the VF-1A to make a training aircraft¹, and the design was retired and replaced by a proper training model (the VT-1) before the First Space War even ended².

Even the VF-1J's placement on the list is tenuous, since they were only produced in low volumes as a potential alternative to the VF-1A in the early blocks that never really "took off"³.  Some works like the DYRL? writeup and Macross II's continuity materials⁴ suggest that most ended up being used as Armored Pack units semi-permanently while the VF-1A and VF-1S did the heavy lifting.  There were some attempts to consolidate it down to one variant, like the VF-1B (Half-S), eventually succeeding with the VF-1X.

That's a bit more info than I had. That all makes sense though. I was hesitant to include the D since it was a 2 seater, and there are plenty of real world examples of single and tandem fighters serving in the same squadrons (ex. there used to be 1-2 F-106B's in every squadron for checkrides and training). 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Let's lop the -E off that, since sources can't even agree if the -E is a first or second production type.

When all's said and done, the VF-19 ended up with at least seven variants operating concurrently⁵, though no more than two at a time in any known location... inevitably in "grunt" and "command" versions.  Some forces were more reasonable, though, like Macross Galaxy's Pegasus Squadron, which was made up entirely of VF-19C/MG21s.

I meant to imply that the E was included tentatively, since as you pointed out we can't know if it was a 1st or 2nd production type. So I have to ask, with the 1st production type VF-19's was it a C model serving as a command version of the A, or was there a VF-19A/C commander type sub modification?

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

To be fair, those at least had the good grace to all be design-optimized for different operational roles.

Fair enough. Similar to how the F-4C/D/E/G all operated concurrently, but were mission optimized. The F-4E/G sharing the same airframe modification, but the E being optimized as a fighter/bomber, and the G being SEAD optimized. Am I drawing a correct parallel?

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ech... not quite.  The VF-4 had several variants that were in service simultaneously, though most were optimized for particular operational theaters similarly to the F-35⁶.  (Its known official variant list includes Air Force and Navy versions in addition to the all-regime/Spacy version.)

The VF-11's a better example of that, as is the VF-171, once you subtract out regional variations.

Right. I guess my primary concern was less that there were multiple serving concurrently, but that there were multiple variants serving within the same organizational structure (flight/platoon/team/squadron, etc). 

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There are two potential real-world motivations I can think of.  One was an old wartime practical concern of giving the most experienced pilots the newest and best possible hardware that they'd have been best suited to making full use of.  The other would be the distinctly Japanese habit of having the larger flight platoon instead of pairs of aircraft, with the leader and most experienced pilot being expected to mentor and, to a certain extent, protect the less experienced pilots in his charge.

(It was also not unheard-of for experienced pilots to customize their aircraft back in the bad old days of the world wars, though customizations often focused more on defense rather than offense, such as the Soviets removing the wing guns from their lend-lease P-39s or the Japanese up-armoring the cockpits of their A6M Zeros to ensure that experienced pilots made it back alive.  Of course, the most storied example would be Baron Manfred von Richthofen's ace custom Albatross D.III with structural reinforcements.)

I mean, All of those arguments made sense. I'd never really thought about it in terms of WWII, since I'm so much a child of Cold War era thinking. I don't understand what you mean about the Japanese using a larger flight platoon.

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering practically every one of its weapons is MDE?  Yes.

Practically, what ones aren't?

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

That's a bit more info than I had. That all makes sense though. I was hesitant to include the D since it was a 2 seater, and there are plenty of real world examples of single and tandem fighters serving in the same squadrons (ex. there used to be 1-2 F-106B's in every squadron for checkrides and training). 

As far as we know, the improvised (VF-1D) and purpose-built (VT-1) training variants of the VF-1 were only deployed as part of separate training squadrons.

The VF-1D had extra factors that kept it from seeing frontline combat service despite being equipped with live weaponry.  Namely, one of the compromises made to accommodate a second seat in the cockpit block was a reduction in survival equipment including the life support systems intended for operation in space.  (Variable Fighter Master File cites this, but picked it up from earlier official works like B-Club 79's VF History piece.)

 

6 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I meant to imply that the E was included tentatively, since as you pointed out we can't know if it was a 1st or 2nd production type. So I have to ask, with the 1st production type VF-19's was it a C model serving as a command version of the A, or was there a VF-19A/C commander type sub modification?

Nah, the VF-19's first mass production type never had a command variant that we know of.  The VF-19C was a relatively minor [update to/replacement for] the VF-19A with some safety and control improvements, like the relationship between the VF-11A and VF-11B, or Master File's take on the VF-25A and its original VF-25C.

 

6 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Fair enough. Similar to how the F-4C/D/E/G all operated concurrently, but were mission optimized. The F-4E/G sharing the same airframe modification, but the E being optimized as a fighter/bomber, and the G being SEAD optimized. Am I drawing a correct parallel?

Yep!

 

6 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Right. I guess my primary concern was less that there were multiple serving concurrently, but that there were multiple variants serving within the same organizational structure (flight/platoon/team/squadron, etc). 

Outside of the Special Forces units, that was a pretty rare thing.  We can't speak to the organization of NUNS VF-25 squadrons in the Macross Frontier fleet, but we never saw any CF VF-25s except the VF-25A, and there were several different platoons worth of fighters around.

 

6 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I mean, All of those arguments made sense. I'd never really thought about it in terms of WWII, since I'm so much a child of Cold War era thinking. I don't understand what you mean about the Japanese using a larger flight platoon.

A lot of Japan's SF military fiction draws on World War II-era dynamics... Gundam so much so that I've occasionally felt like the Universal Century was almost a "what if we sided with the Allies instead of the Axis" thing.

 

6 minutes ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Practically, what ones aren't?

The unlisted but visibly present beam machine guns on the hip mounts may not be.

[Valkyrie Driver]

As for the YF-29, Looking at the toy, I see 6 Micro missile launchers (2 shoulder mounted, and 2 outboard on each leg/engine nacelle), the back mounted twin beam cannons, the head lasers, and the Beam Gun Pod (which I don't know the technical name for).

There are ports on the hips, and forearms which look like they should be weapons, and then there are supposed to be guns of some kind in the monitor turret. 

That accounts for the weapons that I can see, some of which seem unlisted. 

Is it true that the YF-29 was supposed to have the same performance and firepower of the VF-25 with tornado parts?

 

[Sir Galahad®]

Just now, Valkyrie Driver said:

As for the YF-29, Looking at the toy, I see 6 Micro missile launchers (2 shoulder mounted, and 2 outboard on each leg/engine nacelle), the back mounted twin beam cannons, the head lasers, and the Beam Gun Pod (which I don't know the technical name for).

There are ports on the hips, and forearms which look like they should be weapons, and then there are supposed to be guns of some kind in the monitor turret. 

That accounts for the weapons that I can see, some of which seem unlisted. 

Is it true that the YF-29 was supposed to have the same performance and firepower of the VF-25 with tornado parts?

 

The Macross Mecha Manual is a wealth of information, it doesn't have any info on Delta though.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/yf-29.htm

[SMS007]

The manual's information is largely copied from various Macross books. Do be aware, though, that the Manual's translations and romanizations are not of professional quality.