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Robotech and REMIX by Titan Comics


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2 hours ago, Einherjar said:

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No.  You know someone really screwed up when Macross 7 is a better story.

Just because Macross screwed them over doesn't mean that Titan comics can.  2 wrongs don't make a right and all that.

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21 minutes ago, JohnMc said:

Just because Macross screwed them over doesn't mean that Titan comics can.  2 wrongs don't make a right and all that.

You consider both of them having successful military careers, moving on to a become a mayor and a fleet admiral, keeping their marriage intact and living long enough to have grandchildren yet still able to mop the floor with people as fighter pilots getting screwed over?  :blink:

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1 hour ago, Einherjar said:

You consider both of them having successful military careers, moving on to a become a mayor and a fleet admiral, keeping their marriage intact and living long enough to have grandchildren yet still able to mop the floor with people as fighter pilots getting screwed over?  :blink:

The only member of the Jenius family who got screwed over was Mirage... who had to deal with feelings of inadequacy because she was merely Above Average in a family that not only literally defined what excellence meant as a VF pilot, but also dominated in politics and professional music.

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20 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Much as I like Thrawn I wasn't particulary impressed by Zahn's Star Wars books. Is he any better outside the genre?

I find he's pretty good even inside the genre, at least the 3 Thrawn novels.

I enjoyed all his books I've read, from the Thrawn trilogy, to WH40k, to original series. Take it as you will.

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4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only member of the Jenius family who got screwed over was Mirage... who had to deal with feelings of inadequacy because she was merely Above Average in a family that not only literally defined what excellence meant as a VF pilot, but also dominated in politics and professional music.

Another aspect of story telling that could have been... Imagine if MD had the time and effort to show of it's lead toons better from a adult prospective instead of the Musical BS story (that hacked VFs on the side)?

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8 hours ago, Sanity is Optional said:

I find he's pretty good even inside the genre, at least the 3 Thrawn novels.

I enjoyed all his books I've read, from the Thrawn trilogy, to WH40k, to original series. Take it as you will.

Well since you mentioned 40k I found that authors I enjoyed were C.S. Goto, Gordon Rennie, William King and Dan Abnet.

Dan Abnet has also done some nice Marvel work, like :

Groot and Rocket Racoon Steal the Galaxy

Which is available as a prose novel or an audio drama.

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21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only member of the Jenius family who got screwed over was Mirage... who had to deal with feelings of inadequacy because she was merely Above Average in a family that not only literally defined what excellence meant as a VF pilot, but also dominated in politics and professional music.

I was about to say the Jenius family's Latoya, but Mirage IS talented so...

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On 5/14/2020 at 7:03 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Eventually, we will simply run out of Robotech fans due to simple attrition.

And then?

What fantastic event is then supposed to happen? 

The End of Idols? No more obligatory love triangles? Will music simply be emotion evoking sound once more?

Will Macross be great again?

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2 hours ago, Podtastic said:

And then?

What fantastic event is then supposed to happen? 

Nothing fantastic... it won't be a momentous event, because almost nobody knows or cares that Robotech exists even now.  It'll just be cause for a brief sigh of relief as the fandoms that've had to put up with the ridiculous shenanigans of Robotech's fanbase and "creator" realize they don't have to put up with if anymore.  It's the same sort of relief that comes with being done babysitting someone's ill-behaved child or pet that won't stop sh*tting on the carpet.

 

2 hours ago, Podtastic said:

The End of Idols? No more obligatory love triangles? Will music simply be emotion evoking sound once more?

Nope... unlike Robotech, that stuff actually sells.  And pretty damn well, at that.

 

2 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Will Macross be great again?

Looking at how it's currently doing, on its seventeenth animated feature and with Walkure and previous singers playing to packed houses while merch sells out while still in preorder, there's a pretty damned airtight case for Macross having been great all alomg.

Goodness knows it's the one and only part of Robotech anyone gives a cr*p about. ;-) 

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3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nothing fantastic... it won't be a momentous event, because almost nobody knows or cares that Robotech exists even now. 

So why go on and on about it then? Its existence, or lack there of, makes zero difference to Macross. You can be a fan of either or both, and plenty of people are.

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nope... unlike Robotech, that stuff actually sells.  And pretty damn well, at that.

Are you an employee or a shareholder?

It doesnt matter if it sells if all it means is more of that.

Rap sells. Is that a good thing if it means we get less ochestral music because resources were wasted on it?

Its actually painful seeing how good some Gundam series are now by comparison - Macross can be great again if these distractions were put back in their proper place and proportions.

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Goodness knows it's the one and only part of Robotech anyone gives a cr*p about

Untrue. Its the most popular segment but the Southern Cross and Mospaeda/New Generation portions have their fans.

Or prehaps you meant its the only portion certain individuals at HG like to THINK no-one cares about.

Edited by Podtastic
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Untrue. Its the most popular segment but the Southern Cross and Mospaeda/New Generation portions have their fans.

OK, it's only true like the line about there being no cannibals in the British army from Monty Python.  

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On 5/27/2020 at 9:05 PM, Einherjar said:

You consider both of them having successful military careers, moving on to a become a mayor and a fleet admiral, keeping their marriage intact and living long enough to have grandchildren yet still able to mop the floor with people as fighter pilots getting screwed over?  :blink:

 

They were separated if not divorced in Macross 7. The most hated part of that season.

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They reconciled at the end.  In fact, their subplot in Macross 7 might as well be to subvert the fact that they and their decedents were very close to being seen as Mary Sues in universe.  Sure, they had a rough patch in their marriage, but after years of both being significantly successful in a lot of things.  Nevertheless, they still loved each other.  It's very different compared to whatever the heck happened to them in Remix.

Also this.

 

Edited by Einherjar
I actually watched Macross 7
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5 hours ago, Podtastic said:

So why go on and on about it then? Its existence, or lack there of, makes zero difference to Macross. You can be a fan of either or both, and plenty of people are.

Because they don't keep to themselves.

To borrow a popular meme, it's like dealing with vegans or people who do crossfit.  Nobody gives a tinker's damn about what they do when they keep it to themselves, but they seem to feel compelled to force it into any even remotely related conversation at the first opportunity.  That's why a "No Robotech" rule is a near-universal thing found in almost any Macross fan community online.  It was a bloody necessity back when Robotech fan were more numerous.  Robotech fans were (and still are) notorious for their ignorance, and would butt into and derail discussions (often unwittingly) because they had no idea what the hell the rest of the participants were talking about and tried to relate everything to Robotech.  Rules like that aren't as necessary now that there are very few Robotech fans left.

Harmony Gold cultivated and encouraged that ignorance, of course, as a way of retaining their customer base... while blocking the release of real Macross in the west in defense of a property that was a commercial failure from the outset and which several court systems believe is kept around mainly to launder money for tax evasion.

 

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It doesnt matter if it sells if all it means is more of that.

Rap sells. Is that a good thing if it means we get less ochestral music because resources were wasted on it?

They're in business to make money, mate.  If it sells, that's because people like it and want more.  If you don't like it, take your cash somewhere else... that's the meaning of the free market.

I, for instance, am a lifelong Star Trek fan.  I loathe Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard, so I don't support those parts of the franchise with my money.

Rap, as a musical genre, is no less a viable platform for artistic expression than classic music, jazz, opera, or motown.  And those other genres certainly had their fair share of mediocre acts who were transparently only in it for the money... it's just that, as time goes on, we only remember the greats and epic failures.  All that middling garbage gets forgotten.

 

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Its actually painful seeing how good some Gundam series are now by comparison - Macross can be great again if these distractions were put back in their proper place and proportions.

As we've noted many times, you have a very VERY warped perception of what made Macross a success... your tastes are not at all in line with those of 99.99999999% of the fandom.

Macross demonstrably performs better with general audiences when it emphasizes those aspects of the story you don't like.  The optimism, the music, the love triangles, the things which were always central parts of the Macross experience.  When they tried to go more gritty and action-focused, it didn't do nearly as well... like Macross IIMacross Plus, and Macross Zero.

The same principle applies to Gundam too, actually.  Gundam is known for being relentlessly grim, dark, and depressing... and when it's tried to break that mold, it ends up doing much worse than usual like Reconguista in G.

 

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Untrue. Its the most popular segment but the Southern Cross and Mospaeda/New Generation portions have their fans.

Or prehaps you meant its the only portion certain individuals at HG like to THINK no-one cares about.

Let's be honest here, the two dozen or so people who actually give a toss about Southern Cross aren't enough to matter... the vast, nay, overwhelming majority have no use for or interest in any part of Robotech except "the Macross Saga".  That's why every effort to continue Robotech has been Macross-centric except for its two very worst failures... and let's just say that IS NOT a coincidence.

MOSPEADA does have its own cult fandom independent of Robotech, mind you.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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35 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Because they don't keep to themselves.

To borrow a popular meme, it's like dealing with vegans or people who do crossfit.  Nobody gives a tinker's damn about what they do when they keep it to themselves, but they seem to feel compelled to force it into any even remotely related conversation at the first opportunity.  That's why a "No Robotech" rule is a near-universal thing found in almost any Macross fan community online.  It was a bloody necessity back when Robotech fan were more numerous.  Robotech fans were (and still are) notorious for their ignorance, and would butt into and derail discussions (often unwittingly) because they had no idea what the hell the rest of the participants were talking about and tried to relate everything to Robotech.  Rules like that aren't as necessary now that there are very few Robotech fans left.

Harmony Gold cultivated and encouraged that ignorance, of course, as a way of retaining their customer base... while blocking the release of real Macross in the west in defense of a property that was a commercial failure from the outset and which several court systems believe is kept around mainly to launder money for tax evasion.

 

They're in business to make money, mate.  If it sells, that's because people like it and want more.  If you don't like it, take your cash somewhere else... that's the meaning of the free market.

I, for instance, am a lifelong Star Trek fan.  I loathe Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard, so I don't support those parts of the franchise with my money.

Rap, as a musical genre, is no less a viable platform for artistic expression than classic music, jazz, opera, or motown.  And those other genres certainly had their fair share of mediocre acts who were transparently only in it for the money... it's just that, as time goes on, we only remember the greats and epic failures.  All that middling garbage gets forgotten.

 

As we've noted many times, you have a very VERY warped perception of what made Macross a success... your tastes are not at all in line with those of 99.99999999% of the fandom.

Macross demonstrably performs better with general audiences when it emphasizes those aspects of the story you don't like.  The optimism, the music, the love triangles, the things which were always central parts of the Macross experience.  When they tried to go more gritty and action-focused, it didn't do nearly as well... like Macross IIMacross Plus, and Macross Zero.

The same principle applies to Gundam too, actually.  Gundam is known for being relentlessly grim, dark, and depressing... and when it's tried to break that mold, it ends up doing much worse than usual like Reconguista in G.

 

Let's be honest here, the two dozen or so people who actually give a toss about Southern Cross aren't enough to matter... the vast, nay, overwhelming majority have no use for or interest in any part of Robotech except "the Macross Saga".  That's why every effort to continue Robotech has been Macross-centric except for its two very worst failures... and let's just say that IS NOT a coincidence.

MOSPEADA does have its own cult fandom independent of Robotech, mind you.

I'm just going to go ahead and agree with you on all counts here. I think it's what Macross brought to the table that made RT any success; otherwise, we would have seen continuations of Southern Cross and Mospeada (sans any link to Macross) that would have been successful.

I mean, how many people really care WHAT happens to Dana Sterling (so long as she doesn't appear in Macross)? Weld her in her hover-tank thingie and drop them in a black hole with an s-neutron whatchamacallit missile for all we care...

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7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I mean, how many people really care WHAT happens to Dana Sterling (so long as she doesn't appear in Macross)? Weld her in her hover-tank thingie and drop them in a black hole with an s-neutron whatchamacallit missile for all we care...

That's essentially why we predicted that Robotech Remix was going to fail when the series was announced... the Masters Saga is the fandom's un-favorite saga and she is generally considered to be the worst and most obnoxious character in the show.  Making her the main character, even if they were transplanting her into a universe in which the Masters Saga designs never existed and everything is Macross-based, was taking an awful risk.  A gamble that seems to have rather predictably ended poorly, given the apparent catastrophic existence failure of the series after just four issues.

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20 hours ago, JB0 said:

Like G Gundam. Best entry in the franchise.

 

1 hour ago, Scyla said:

Or Build Fighters. I love Build Fighters.

Another good example of difference in taste.

These are two of my most hated series. Couldn't get through more then a few episodes of build, one episode of Reconguista and was dragged thru G by an old room-mate. G was sooo stupid.

But to each their own. 

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On 5/31/2020 at 6:25 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

As we've noted many times, you have a very VERY warped perception of what made Macross a success... your tastes are not at all in line with those of 99.99999999% of the fandom.

Macross demonstrably performs better with general audiences when it emphasizes those aspects of the story you don't like.  The optimism, the music, the love triangles, the things which were always central parts of the Macross experience.  When they tried to go more gritty and action-focused, it didn't do nearly as well... like Macross IIMacross Plus, and Macross Zero.

completely agree. I came from the gritty war position previously;

About some where between 4 or so years ago I started a FB group for Macross US based fans to commune about Macross.

The conversation came up of why Macross did not have a grittier war drama? Why certain tones in storyline -ie: Delta and 7, sometimes took the spotlight. The majority consensus was that the gritty war drama wasn't required to make Macross great.

Looking back on this after watching the Delta movie and seeing some other happenings in the world- I see how right they were.

Macross doesn't have to be gritty because gritty war dramas can equate to dystopian societies and outcomes. The races in Macross have the gift of culture; and in this- they have the realization to better themselves and to grow amongst each other.

There is conflict; there always will be- but through the ability to achieve culture- they are able to unify, share, grow, advance and keep the story moving.

Edited by blackconvoy_D01
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On 5/31/2020 at 6:25 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

 

As we've noted many times, you have a very VERY warped perception of what made Macross a success... your tastes are not at all in line with those of 99.99999999% of the fandom.

Macross demonstrably performs better with general audiences when it emphasizes those aspects of the story you don't like.  The optimism, the music, the love triangles, the things which were always central parts of the Macross experience.  When they tried to go more gritty and action-focused, it didn't do nearly as well... like Macross IIMacross Plus, and Macross Zero.

 

 

I agree with most of what Seto wrote but I have to disagree with Macross II as being gritty. It's got the optimism, music, and the love triangle.

 

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On 6/1/2020 at 12:25 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Because they don't keep to themselves.

Well why should they? You dont keep your opinions to yourself.

Sure mb you dont want non-macross related material overwhelming a macross site, but you protesting somewhat overmuch.

You hate Robotech. Big deal.

Everybody knows already.

On 6/1/2020 at 1:03 AM, pengbuzz said:

I, for instance, am a lifelong Star Trek fan.  I loathe Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek: Picard, so I don't support those parts of the franchise with my money.

But dont tell me then that you dont have any desire to see the Star Trek that YOU enjoy, rather than whats being dished out.

If a lot of people like crap then its not crap because a lot of people like it? 

On 6/1/2020 at 1:03 AM, pengbuzz said:

Rap, as a musical genre, is no less a viable platform for artistic expression than clas

Its not and never will be music

On 6/1/2020 at 1:03 AM, pengbuzz said:

As we've noted many times, you have a very VERY warped perception of what made Macross a success...

Why do you use the royal we to refer to yourself? (Not you pengbuzz)

Really? Are you serious? SDF became popular because of Min Mei and not the sci-fi space opera elements and the mecha battles?

SDF was great (and other macross series)  and the singing and love triangle was only a part of the story, and were in proper context. Now its forced. Now there must be weird explanations for why music is effective. Now it must be a weapon effective under all circumstances - even where there's no sound.

your tastes are not at all in line with those of99.99999999% of the fandom.

Sad for them.

What is this gritty anyway?

This isnt like Mad Max where everything is ugly and decrepit.

You write as if battles in anime  and science fiction are not enjoyable and uplifting. Whats not to like about the multi-coloured energy blasts and explosions - its not depressing - its inspiring.

Gundam got me to even appreciate pink as a colour for energy blasts.

Admit it , even later toomanypeacefulaliens Star Trek series (where there were no longer salt vampires, Gorn encounters and Spock making jokes) were more enjoyable during the Dominion War and when Species 8472 showed up.

 

Edited by Podtastic
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1 hour ago, Podtastic said:

Well why should they? You dont keep your opinions to yourself.

Sure mb you dont want non-macross related material overwhelming a macross site, but you protesting somewhat overmuch.

You hate Robotech. Big deal.

Everybody knows already.

But dont tell me then that you dont have any desire to see the Star Trek that YOU enjoy, rather than whats being dished out.

If a lot of people like crap then its not crap because a lot of people like it? 

Its not and never will be music

Why do you use the royal we to refer to yourself? (Not you pengbuzz)

Really? Are you serious? SDF became popular because of Min Mei and not the sci-fi space opera elements and the mecha battles?

SDF was great (and other macross series)  and the singing and love triangle was only a part of the story, and were in proper context. Now its forced. Now there must be weird explanations for why music is effective. Now it must be a weapon effective under all circumstances - even where there's no sound.

your tastes are not at all in line with those of99.99999999% of the fandom.

Sad for them.

What is this gritty anyway?

This isnt like Mad Max where everything is ugly and decrepit.

You write as if battles in anime  and science fiction are not enjoyable and uplifting. Whats not to like about the multi-coloured energy blasts and explosions - its not depressing - its inspiring.

Gundam got me to even appreciate pink as a colour for energy blasts.

Admit it , even later toomanypeacefulaliens Star Trek series (where there were no longer salt vampires, Gorn encounters and Spock making jokes) were more enjoyable during the Dominion War and when Species 8472 showed up.

 

Tell you what: next time you want to yell at Seito Kaiba,  please quote him and not me. I do agree with him, but if you're upset with him specifically, then make sure that your "line of fire" isn't misdirected here.

On that note: Podtastic, I've noted a tendency with you to vehemently disagree with folks that is utterly breathtaking, even for someone as high-strng as myself.

I'm done in this thread.

*My blood pressure will thank me later.*

 

-Pengbuzz out.

Edited by pengbuzz
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Just a thought, how old are people who are still active on this forum?  I just realized at least one person who posted on this thread according to their profile claims to be almost 50.  Guess I’m slow when it comes to details like that.

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2 hours ago, Vifam7 said:

I agree with most of what Seto wrote but I have to disagree with Macross II as being gritty. It's got the optimism, music, and the love triangle.

By Macross's standards, Macross II was pretty damned gritty for the time... what with the UN Forces being a stagnant and overbearing military that maintains the illusion of perfection by exercising heavy press censorship, the Mardook being a race of genocidal religious fanatics who use mind control to force their Zentradi into kamikaze attacks, etc.

It took a lot of pointers from Mobile Suit Gundam, which I'm sure had nothing to do with all the Gundam staffers working on it.:rofl:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Podtastic said:

Well why should they? You dont keep your opinions to yourself.

Sure mb you dont want non-macross related material overwhelming a macross site, but you protesting somewhat overmuch.

What's that old saying?  "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt"?

Harmony Gold invested a lot of time and effort into creating and sustaining a culture of deliberate ignorance in the Robotech fandom with the specific goal of keeping Robotech fans willfully ignorant of anything outside the Robotech franchise.  That cult of ignorance has manifested in a lot of different ways, but particularly in the fandom's ridiculously toxic habits in anything resembling a debate or discussion.  There are some reasonable voices among the vocal Robotech fans, but they're drowned out by the totally unreasonable fanboys who refuse to accept any evidence that doesn't fit with their personal headcanon.  It's not at all uncommon for them to repeatedly insist that an easily disprovable claim is gospel truth... well after it's been disproven with source citations.1  Many of them believe the easily-disprovable lies they've been told by Harmony Gold, Carl Macek, and Tommy Yune without any question or an ounce of thought.

Other fandoms don't want Robotech fans around, because nobody wants to deal with the fallout of a practical demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

The few people who remember Robotech exists at all generally have no strong feelings about it at all... their disgust is typically reserved for the dishonest behavior of Harmony Gold and the trollish behavior of Robotech's fans.  Looking at what Robotech has "accomplished" in over three decades inspires pity more than anything.  That's what this thread mainly is... bystanders gawping at a train wreck in progress, wondering how anyone could've thought that was a good idea.

 

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But dont tell me then that you dont have any desire to see the Star Trek that YOU enjoy, rather than whats being dished out.

Oh, I absolutely want to see more of the kind of Star Trek that I enjoy... and I express that desire through the ways in which I support the franchise. 

I like TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT... so I support those parts of the Star Trek franchise by buying merchandise when they produce something that appeals to me.  I watch them on TV or streaming, I buy them on digital library or home video, etc.  I don't do that for the parts of the franchise I don't like - DiscoveryPicard, and the Abrams movies.  That shows, in a very real and very tangible way, what I think of Star Trek and what I want to see more of.  I'm voting, as I like to say, with my wallet.  If fans don't like it, licensees won't bother to license it.

That kind of thing demonstrably works.  These entertainment companies are in business to make money, and if there's supply but no demand for one product and more demand than supply for another, they'll absolutely change their focus to support the one for which there is demand.  That's how we're seeing studios release alternative cuts of films they never intended to allow to see the light of day.  That's why Star Trek: Discovery flopped and was retooled twice, and why Star Trek: Picard got no licensee support at all and had to find funding elsewhere.  That's why Strange New Worlds exists at all... it's an attempt to give the people what they want after trying something different and failing.

Of course, it helps to be with the majority on things like that.  

 

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If a lot of people like crap then its not crap because a lot of people like it? 

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Its not and never will be music

You're falsely presuming a Boolean condition here... that things must either fall into "Things I like" or "Things which are crap".

That isn't the case, and it never was.

Just because it does not appeal to you does not mean it is objectively bad.  I don't care for rap music, but that doesn't mean I can dismiss it as having no artistic merit.  It simply isn't for me.  Art is all about pushing boundaries in ways that speak to people.  It wasn't that long ago that uptight idiots considered Jazz to not be "real" music. :rolleyes:

 

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Why do you use the royal we to refer to yourself?

That's a collective "we".  You'll notice that nobody here agrees with you, and a lot of people are seconding what I said?

 

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Really? Are you serious? SDF became popular because of Min Mei and not the sci-fi space opera elements and the mecha battles?

SDF was great (and other macross series)  and the singing and love triangle was only a part of the story, and were in proper context. Now its forced. Now there must be weird explanations for why music is effective. Now it must be a weapon effective under all circumstances - even where there's no sound.

Yes, I am completely serious.  Super Dimension Fortress Macross was, first and foremost, a character-driven drama and love story.  All that crap about giant robots and space war is an elaborate backdrop for a story that's focused on love, teenage angst and awkwardness, the idol phenomenon, and music's power as a form of communication.  It's cool, and it helps sell the main story, but that's all it's for... helping to sell the main story.  That hasn't changed at any point in the franchise's history.  

The VF-1 was cool, but Mari Iijima's Lynn Minmay was the real phenomenon... so much so that it had some fairly significant consequences for her singing career as a result of being intrinsically associated with Minmay.

You'll notice that, when Macross stories acknowledge the events of previous ones, it's almost always the characters - and specifically the singers - they acknowledge.  Myung wanted to be an idol singer like Lynn Minmay and participated in creating Sharon Apple as a way to fulfill that dream after not making it as an idol herself.  Basara was inspired by Minmay's story to become a singer, as were many others like Mylene and Emilia Jenius.  Ozma Lee is a huge Fire Bomber fan and when it comes to fame the crew of the Macross Quarter make the instant connection to Minmay and Fire Bomber.  Sheryl Nome's concert in the first Macross Frontier movie opens with an acknowledgement of the previous Macross singers.  The list goes on and on and on... and homages to this have spilled over into more titles than can readily be counted.  Even Gundam couldn't help but acknowledge its power.

 

 

1. I've had to deal with this garbage as recently as just a few days ago... when Robotech fans decided to butt into a question about the Macross setting to try to argue the Robotech definition of a fold drive, despite their claim not lining up to either pre- or post-reboot Robotech official materials, and then tried to argue that that same incorrect conclusion also applied to Macross.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

By Macross's standards, Macross II was pretty damned gritty for the time... what with the UN Forces being a stagnant and overbearing military that maintains the illusion of perfection by exercising heavy press censorship, the Mardook being a race of genocidal religious fanatics who use mind control to force their Zentradi into kamikaze attacks, etc.

It took a lot of pointers from Mobile Suit Gundam, which I'm sure had nothing to do with all the Gundam staffers working on it.:rofl:

 

It's has some dark themes, but the overall atmosphere is decidedly not gritty IMHO. Especially when compared to Gundam 0083 which came out the same year.  Though, to be fair, how one defines "gritty" is subjective.

I don't understand the Gundam staff thing. Director Kenichi Yatagai isn't really a Gundam guy nor is series composer Sukehiro Tomita. The only big name Gundam guy I know in the credits is Fujita Kazumi but his job was mecha designer.

Edited by Vifam7
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2 hours ago, Vifam7 said:

It's has some dark themes, but the overall atmosphere is decidedly not gritty IMHO. Especially when compared to Gundam 0083 which came out the same year.  Though, to be fair, how one defines "gritty" is subjective.

*sigh* The first three words of what I wrote were "By Macross's standards". 

Of-bloody-course it's not going to be as relentlessly grim as a Universal Century Gundam show... those are unstinting war-is-hell, black-and-grey morality slogs through the emotional and psychological deterioration of unfortunate kids who wind up forced onto the front lines of a war with actual Nazis... and occasionally of Yoshiyuki Tomino himself.

 

Mind you, that seems to be exactly what the mercifully few western fans who want Macross to be more war-centric are hoping in vain we'll one day receive.  It's the same sort of crowd who missed the very pointed reminder at the end of Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket about how people who are only watching for the giant robot fights missed the entire point of the story.  That is to say, the lesson about the toll that war and death take on people.  As in Macross, the giant robots in Gundam are but set dressing for a story about what a profoundly evil, ugly, and senseless thing war is.  The key difference between the two being that Macross is fundamentally optimistic and Gundam is fundamentally pessimistic.  To the writers of Macross, the power of communication and mutual understanding can de-escalate and end wars and allow former enemies to live together in peace.  To Gundam's writers, a never-ending cycle of hatred will always be there as the defeated simply nurse their wounds and plan their bloody revenge with no hope of ever giving up long after the cause is lost and no chance of ever understanding or even trying to understand each other.

Robotech, of course, is even worse as humanity very quickly learns that the only way to achieve peace in their wartorn universe is unrelenting genocide.  I'm not sure if Titan's take on it would count as better or worse, since the end result of any war is always the aliens being exterminated unless they submit to serve humanity.  The Zentradi who refused to live among humans are killed to a man, and then the ones who agreed to fight for humanity are killed off in an internal conflict.  The Robotech Masters and Earth forces genocide each other to a standstill and are then both wiped out by the Invid.  Humanity tries to exterminate the Invid entirely, and only narrowly fail, only to immediately end up on the receiving end again due to one of their subjugated alien races secretly wanting to genocide them both.  I wonder if Robotech fans saw Titan's more Macross-like setting as better or worse than the unrelenting cycle of war and death in Robotech's TV series?

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Even "gritty" Macross Plus has a somewhat optimistic viewpoint where two friends-turned-rivals finally gut the truth out, make a true reconciliation with one another, and then work together to save their mutual friend.

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13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

*sigh* The first three words of what I wrote were "By Macross's standards". 

Of-bloody-course it's not going to be as relentlessly grim as a Universal Century Gundam show... those are unstinting war-is-hell, black-and-grey morality slogs through the emotional and psychological deterioration of unfortunate kids who wind up forced onto the front lines of a war with actual Nazis... and occasionally of Yoshiyuki Tomino himself.

 

Mind you, that seems to be exactly what the mercifully few western fans who want Macross to be more war-centric are hoping in vain we'll one day receive.  It's the same sort of crowd who missed the very pointed reminder at the end of Mobile Suit Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket about how people who are only watching for the giant robot fights missed the entire point of the story.  That is to say, the lesson about the toll that war and death take on people.  As in Macross, the giant robots in Gundam are but set dressing for a story about what a profoundly evil, ugly, and senseless thing war is.  The key difference between the two being that Macross is fundamentally optimistic and Gundam is fundamentally pessimistic.  To the writers of Macross, the power of communication and mutual understanding can de-escalate and end wars and allow former enemies to live together in peace.  To Gundam's writers, a never-ending cycle of hatred will always be there as the defeated simply nurse their wounds and plan their bloody revenge with no hope of ever giving up long after the cause is lost and no chance of ever understanding or even trying to understand each other.

Robotech, of course, is even worse as humanity very quickly learns that the only way to achieve peace in their wartorn universe is unrelenting genocide.  I'm not sure if Titan's take on it would count as better or worse, since the end result of any war is always the aliens being exterminated unless they submit to serve humanity.  The Zentradi who refused to live among humans are killed to a man, and then the ones who agreed to fight for humanity are killed off in an internal conflict.  The Robotech Masters and Earth forces genocide each other to a standstill and are then both wiped out by the Invid.  Humanity tries to exterminate the Invid entirely, and only narrowly fail, only to immediately end up on the receiving end again due to one of their subjugated alien races secretly wanting to genocide them both.  I wonder if Robotech fans saw Titan's more Macross-like setting as better or worse than the unrelenting cycle of war and death in Robotech's TV series?

So for you Macross and Gundam are all about the unsolicited social messages.

They are not missed, but rather deemed not to be of any great relevance to people who already have a functional moral compass and are just here for entertainment.

War is hell in reality but in fiction it is most entertaining.

This is escapism not reality

As to your last question not everyone wants their science fiction to be like Star Trek (or Mills and Boon), so war is not a negative - particularly not if our faction wins/survives. From my perpective the Titan comic is an absolute mess. Do an online poll if you want a broad view on the topic but I'll puke on my phone if most think the comic is better.

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3 hours ago, Podtastic said:

So for you Macross and Gundam are all about the unsolicited social messages.

Their respective creators have been quite clear on the message their work is meant to convey.

Unsurprisingly, a lot of Japanese fiction that features war stories of some type outside of the setting of Japan's feudal period tend to include fairly strong anti-war themes and messages that are both central to the story and a major part of character development.

 

3 hours ago, Podtastic said:

They are not missed, but rather deemed not to be of any great relevance to people who already have a functional moral compass and are just here for entertainment.

Again, that's kinda just you.... you seem to miss a lot of points with distressing consistency.

To most of the audience, that anti-war message is a core part of the individual story and one of the overall themes of the franchise as a whole.

Gundam, in particular, is very fond of stressing how war breaks families even before the fighting actually starts and how the people whose families have been broken by war go on to sustain the cycle of hatred that gives rise to future wars and how those psychological wounds never truly heal.  Macross is somewhat more optimistic about people's ability to heal or at least forgive when the conflict ends and the talking begins, but even that has occasionally shown that some people really do end up broken beyond repair (like the racist General Gomez in Macross Plus).  

 

3 hours ago, Podtastic said:

War is hell in reality but in fiction it is most entertaining.

This is escapism not reality

The point you're resolutely missing is that war in a lot of fiction is ALSO hell for the characters... and that is often the basis of a point the author is trying to make.  

This isn't escapism, this is social commentary... tackling themes like militarism, nationalism, dehumanization, bigotry and discrimination, the psychological and social cost of war, etc.

 

3 hours ago, Podtastic said:

As to your last question not everyone wants their science fiction to be like Star Trek, so war is not a negative - particularly not if our faction wins/survives. From my perpective the Titan comic is an absolute mess. Do an online poll if you want a broad view on the topic but I'll puke on my phone if most think the comic is better.

I'm not really interested in your perspective.

As we've established before, your views are so skewed and your interested so hyper-specialized that you don't seem to even understand what these shows are about.

There's a pretty damned big gulf between Star Trek and "classic" Robotech's downright Warhammer 40,000-esque attitude that the only good alien is a dead alien and that aliens who side with humanity are tools to be used and potential betrayers.  That's why I'm interested in what people who read Titan's comic thought of the more Macross-like approach to the story instead of being Oops! All Genocide!

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4 hours ago, Podtastic said:

From my perpective the Titan comic is an absolute mess.

You don't need to qualify that statement; I'm sure we can all agree on that, at least.  :lol:

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