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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

I rail on the stuff I can't abide by (Luke becoming a failure and a wuss after everything he went thru some emo scares him..)and i praise the stuff i love (duel of fates and Jaina Solo!) there's a lot in between..^_^

That's fair.

 

*admittedly I know next to NOTHING of the old Expanded Universe. I own and read Dark Horse's Dark Empire (6 issue limited series) when they came out years ago, but that's literally it

-b.

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2 hours ago, jvmacross said:

We'll probably get a Sequel Trilogy fan-edit someday and I am pretty sure most of TLJ will be cut out of it

Cut out that plot tumor called Canto Bight all you want, but they totally ought to fan-edit Rey to actually be a nobody instead of Palpatine's granddaughter... they had a much better message when she wasn't The Chosen One.

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I thought the prequels laid it on pretty HEAVILY that Anakin was a Christ figure, especially with the whole prophecy thing and Sidious's stupid immaculate conception story and all. Not sure how you could see it any other way. IIRC Qui-gon asks her who Anakin's father, ie birth father, was, and she replies, "There WAS no father," which on retrospect, yeah, she was a slave, and it's not out of the question that there's a different connotation to her words, but... follow-up signs don't really point in that direction.

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20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... yeah, I know it's a Star Wars standard trope.  IMO, it's a really bad trope that is detrimental to the rest of the Star Wars story.  It robs the heroes of any sense of agency and sends a rather nasty message in general.  You can only make a difference in the world if you're born into the right family, and anyone who isn't and tries anyway is just wasting their time.  They have no control over their destiny, and they apparently can't refuse the call either.  They have no control over their fate or the choices they make, the Force is dragging them bodily from place to place like a parent dragging a reluctant child who doesn't want to play piano to their first piano recital.  

Maybe that's the real story here.  Star Wars, and especially the Expanded Universe, has always been very heavily anti-democratic and pro-authoritarian.  The Dark Side users are people who want to be in control of their own destiny, while the Light Side users always seem to be content to be blown along at the whims of fate.  Be a good little drone and mind your place or you'll become EVIL in the minds of the people who don't think for themselves seems to be the moral they're going for here.

 

Let's be honest here, the Finn x Poe bromance was the best (and only) love story in this trilogy.

Well, they always have the choice to do or do not. Most choose to do, though they had Luke mostly do not until the very end. They wouldn't be the protagonist if all they did was sit on their hands.

 

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Qui-Gon totally runs with the idea that he was a virgin birth, though... asserting he believes that Anakin was conceived by the whatchamacallits that make the Force go, and IIRC wasn't that what the Expanded Universe ran with as well?

That's how I took it also.

Begs the question though, since Anakin was supposed to the Chosen One and bring about Balance in the Force, would Qui-Gon misinterpreting Shmi (for whatever reasons be they just ignorance or fanaticism) then mean they were wrong about that the whole thing? Kenobi pushed the Chosen One angle because of his Master, but if Qui-Gon was wrong because of that simple reason, then all of it was false from the start, and they themselves set up the fall of the Jedi Order by concentrating on one individual to save them all.

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1 hour ago, Dynaman said:

I hate to break it to you but Luke was always a wuss.  

Whiny?  Yes.

But calling the guy who ran into a prison cell to rescue a princess he never met, a guy that stepped into an X-Wing to face a Death Star, a guy that still chased after an AT-AT even after he got shot down, a guy that still fought Vader and tried to rescue his friends despite warnings, a guy that walked into Jabba’s palace to shake down a crime boss, and a guy that stared down the Emperor after (foolishly) tossing away his lightsaber and calling him a “wuss”?

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

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10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Qui-Gon totally runs with the idea that he was a virgin birth, though... asserting he believes that Anakin was conceived by the whatchamacallits that make the Force go, and IIRC wasn't that what the Expanded Universe ran with as well?

Let's not forget the assertion (among some fans) that Qui-Gon is actually a bad Jedi, but most everyone assumes otherwise because Liam Neeson is such a good actor.

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1 minute ago, sketchley said:

Let's not forget the assertion (among some fans) that Qui-Gon is actually a bad Jedi, but most everyone assumes otherwise because Liam Neeson is such a good actor.

First I'm hearing of that, TBH

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4 hours ago, Thom said:

Begs the question though, since Anakin was supposed to the Chosen One and bring about Balance in the Force, would Qui-Gon misinterpreting Shmi (for whatever reasons be they just ignorance or fanaticism) then mean they were wrong about that the whole thing? Kenobi pushed the Chosen One angle because of his Master, but if Qui-Gon was wrong because of that simple reason, then all of it was false from the start, and they themselves set up the fall of the Jedi Order by concentrating on one individual to save them all.

TROS also retcons the whole "Chosen One" schtick by slapping the whole "will of the Force" thing on it....basically, the Force needs a Chosen One from time to time to bring balance to the Force...at least that is what Anakin's Force Ghost tells Rey towards the end of the movie

 

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7 hours ago, jvmacross said:

TROS also retcons the whole "Chosen One" schtick by slapping the whole "will of the Force" thing on it....basically, the Force needs a Chosen One from time to time to bring balance to the Force...at least that is what Anakin's Force Ghost tells Rey towards the end of the movie

 

Man, the Force is truly messed up if it needs to bring balance to itself every 50 years or so...

...of the same guy. 

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57 minutes ago, Scyla said:

Man, the Force is truly messed up if it needs to bring balance to itself every 50 years or so...

...of the same guy. 

Sounds like the Force is becoming the MATRIX. 

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9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

First I'm hearing of that, TBH

I should refine what I stated.  I don't mean "bad" as in wicked or evil.  I mean it more in the sense of inept (or lack of skill, or awareness, or ability to read the force, or whatever).  Of course, as we're talking about Jedi, that ineptness is harder to spot as the bar is set much, much higher than a normal person, as the Jedi are, for all intents and purposes, super heroes.

Part of the assertion comes from who trained him, and who he forced others to train (you could also throw in things like how he was defeated, etc., too).

Nevertheless, skilled or inept... there's really only one thing that that everyone agrees upon: Liam Neeson is a great actor!  :lol:

Edited by sketchley
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I disagree concerning Qui-Gon Jinn. One of the few Jedi mindful of the living force. He was one of the most prominent Jedi to be bucking the dogma L7 of the Jedi order at the time. And remember, this is the guy who trained Obi Wan Kenobi. Personally, I believe it was intentionally suggested that Anakin's entire arc was forever turned when Qui-Qon  died. Anakin's first father figure (that we know of) whom bet everything on him and believed in him and freed him from slavery with the promise of a much, much better life. Yes the council rejected Anakin. But why? Why would they reject a very obvious powerful force capable boy so young (don't give me that "he was too old crap" friggin Jedi dogma..) and try to send him out into the galaxy untrained and alone. You telling me none of the "masters " figured such a powerful boy might end up in the wrong hands?? And where was the masters compassion and foresight? Blinded that much by "the dark side" ? More like blinded by their own arrogance and dogma. The masters immediately soured their relationship with Anakin. No doubt. And if Qui-Gon Jinn had survived to train Anakin himself, and the Jedi counsel had not immediately blown it, I'm sure Anakin would have been a massive asset . Hell , he was anyway. But Anakin was meant to be Vader, so we got what we got. 

Edited by Bolt
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The part I liked the best about Qui-Gon is that he was the only Jedi of that era to actually live the qualities the Order professed to obey.  The rest were all mired in their Ivory Tower, blind to anything that suggested their religious devotion was wrong.  Even Yoda was blinded by his belief that the Jedi had beaten the Sith a millennium before until it was too late.

 

I really like that about the Prequels.  The Jedi were phenomenally powerful but still limited by hubris and belief in their own perfection.

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2 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

The part I liked the best about Qui-Gon is that he was the only Jedi of that era to actually live the qualities the Order professed to obey.  The rest were all mired in their Ivory Tower, blind to anything that suggested their religious devotion was wrong.  Even Yoda was blinded by his belief that the Jedi had beaten the Sith a millennium before until it was too late.

 

I really like that about the Prequels.  The Jedi were phenomenally powerful but still limited by hubris and belief in their own perfection.

Well said. 

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1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Well said. 

Agree, I liked Qui-Gon as well.

Ever wonder if Dooku was telling the truth or at least part of it when he was interrogating Obi-Wan in Episode 2 and basically eluded that Qui-gon understood the problems and shortsightedness of the Jedi and that he would’ve joined the Separatists.

Chris

Edited by Dobber
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2 hours ago, Dobber said:

Agree, I liked Qui-Gon as well.

Ever wonder if Dooku was telling the truth or at least part of it when he was interrogating Obi-Wan in Episode 2 and basically eluded that Qui-gon understood the problems and shortsightedness of the Jedi and that he would’ve joined the Separatists.

Chris

The best lie has a kernel of truth in the middle.  Qui-Gon understood the faults in the Order, but never would've joined the Separatists.   Violence of that sort didn't seem to be in his nature, even when it might've been a shortcut to solving his problems.

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Across all (9) Skywalker flicks, only four characters come from some sort of lineage.

Luke

Leia

Ben/Kylo

Rey

Everyone else, up to an including Anakin were average joes that became famous/infamous through their deeds alone. The 'nobodies' far outnumber those with a famous name. This hold true for the stand-alone films, animated series and (so far) The Mandalorian.

-b.

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20 minutes ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Across all (9) Skywalker flicks, only four characters come from some sort of lineage.

Luke

Leia

Ben/Kylo

Rey

Everyone else, up to an including Anakin were average joes that became famous/infamous through their deeds alone. The 'nobodies' far outnumber those with a famous name. This hold true for the stand-alone films, animated series and (so far) The Mandalorian.

-b.

I agree. I don’t get why people are so bent over Rey not being a “nobody” Not that she needed to be a “someone” either, but it was clearly alluded to in Ep 7. It is silly to make her a Palpatine, though,  as it added absolutely nothing to the character or story. Didn’t change anything.

Chris

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47 minutes ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Everyone else, up to an including Anakin were average joes that became famous/infamous through their deeds alone. The 'nobodies' far outnumber those with a famous name.

Not wishing to be rude, but I suspect you may be slightly misinterpreting the point there.

What some of us - myself included - were hoping for from Rey after The Last Jedi was that she was going to rise up, become a Jedi, and save the galaxy without having to be driven to do so by a preordained destiny as The Chosen One.  Anakin and Luke both came from humble origins, but that's not the same as being Nobody.  Anakin Skywalker was, quite literally, The Chosen One.  Believed to be a virgin birth conceived by the Force itself and propelled to power and notoriety by a preordained destiny to bring balance to the Force.  Likewise, in the original trilogy, Luke was another Chosen One with the Force driving him to redeem Anakin Skywalker so the Emperor could be defeated and balance restored to the Force.  Their being subject to You Can't Fight Destiny takes a bit away from them as characters, since their choices aren't entirely theirs... they're just the playthings of fate.

Between The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker, Rey had the potential to be a different kind of protagonist.  She had the opportunity to be developed not as The Chosen One, but as more of an (empowered) everyman who had an actual choice and chose to take a stand for the sake of others.  Given the state of social activism in this day in age, with what seems to be a never-ending source of injustices to rail against, an "anyone can be a hero" sort of message would've had better resonance with the audience.

 

47 minutes ago, Kanedas Bike said:

This hold true for the stand-alone films, animated series and (so far) The Mandalorian.

Well, maybe for Rogue One... but I'd have a hard time believing the Force isn't pulling the strings around a baby version of Yoda in The Mandalorian, and we already know Han Solo was destiny's plaything given his involvement with THREE problematic Skywalker brats in the original and sequel trilogies.

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4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not wishing to be rude, but I suspect you may be slightly misinterpreting the point there.

What some of us - myself included - were hoping for from Rey after The Last Jedi was that she was going to rise up, become a Jedi, and save the galaxy without having to be driven to do so by a preordained destiny as The Chosen One.  Anakin and Luke both came from humble origins, but that's not the same as being Nobody.  Anakin Skywalker was, quite literally, The Chosen One.  Believed to be a virgin birth conceived by the Force itself and propelled to power and notoriety by a preordained destiny to bring balance to the Force.  Likewise, in the original trilogy, Luke was another Chosen One with the Force driving him to redeem Anakin Skywalker so the Emperor could be defeated and balance restored to the Force.  Their being subject to You Can't Fight Destiny takes a bit away from them as characters, since their choices aren't entirely theirs... they're just the playthings of fate.

Between The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker, Rey had the potential to be a different kind of protagonist.  She had the opportunity to be developed not as The Chosen One, but as more of an (empowered) everyman who had an actual choice and chose to take a stand for the sake of others.  Given the state of social activism in this day in age, with what seems to be a never-ending source of injustices to rail against, an "anyone can be a hero" sort of message would've had better resonance with the audience.

 

Well, maybe for Rogue One... but I'd have a hard time believing the Force isn't pulling the strings around a baby version of Yoda in The Mandalorian, and we already know Han Solo was destiny's plaything given his involvement with THREE problematic Skywalker brats in the original and sequel trilogies.

All good sir, no offense offered, none taken.

I would say we're just looking at this from different points-of-view. One could argue that every single protagonist ever, is a plaything of fate. But especially in a high-fantasy story like Star Wars where there's an explicitly stated guiding "Force".

"All is, as the Force wills it"

My point about mentioning Luke, Leia, Ben and Rey is that their parents/family were also the main protagonists AND/or antagonists in Star Wars - meaning they came from something within the context of the story.

Anakin had a destiny and was the Chosen One and all of that, but there were no Skywalkers within the legacy of Star Wars prior to Episode I (chronologically speaking). As such he came from nothing. He might as well had been the little dude at the end of TLJ that force grabbed his broom.

Had Luke been a no-name moisture farmer it would not have enhanced his character in any way shape or form - he would have just been that dude that did those heroic things. Having him be the son of the "big bad" absolutely did enhance who and what he was within the context of the story.

The same thing with Rey, she was NEVER going to be a nobody. I don't care what Rian Johnson was trying to do in The Last Jedi. Whether he wanted that continued in Episode 9 or he was just trying to introduce a red herring. Believing that Rey would be just a scavenger with low-life parents that sold her was, with respect, setting yourself up for disappointment. Especially given in your own words, how Star Wars uses the legacy trope so often.

Now, within the context of social activism and making a statement to little boys and girls in the real world that they too can be great and not have to belong to the "right" lineage - I do agree there is a LOT of value there. But I think representation is more important than a lesson of "you don't have to come from the right family". And I mean representation from all walks of life in positive, leading roles. I know that's a very Social Justice Warrior thing of me to say, and I don't care - it's important that little kids (girls, boys, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, short and tall, and everyone else under the Sun) see themselves in a positive light in major roles.

I love the casting of the big three (Rey, Finn and Poe) in the Sequel Trilogy (story for all three, not so much, but casting, yes). That representation can be just as, if not more powerful in a positive way than a message of "anyone, from anywhere".  

3 hours ago, jvmacross said:

The Force has no room for nobodies.....The Force gets what the Force wants.....

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-novel-explains-rise-skywalker-force-dyad/

Exactly.

And dammit I hate how much this new Trilogy relies on supplementary material. That stuff should enrich the story, not retell it so that it un-muddies the waters.

-b.

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12 hours ago, Dobber said:

Agree, I liked Qui-Gon as well.

Ever wonder if Dooku was telling the truth or at least part of it when he was interrogating Obi-Wan in Episode 2 and basically eluded that Qui-gon understood the problems and shortsightedness of the Jedi and that he would’ve joined the Separatists.

Chris

At this very moment in the film I felt a spark of hope that the story would actually surprise me and reveal the Separatists as the origin of the Rebellion, but that was too much to expect.

Oh and to the people that damn the sequels for their reliance on supplementary material, that accounts for the prequels as well. I liked ROTS much more after reading the novelization.

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1 hour ago, electric indigo said:

I liked ROTS much more after reading the novelization.

That's one advantage novelizations have over the prequels themselves -- you can read what the characters are trying to communicate to each other, without being so distracted by the poor acting as to lose sight of the purpose of the dialogue.  Whenever I see Hayden Christensen on screen, I simply can't concentrate on what the story is trying to convey... and a lot of the other performances are similarly bad.

Like, distractingly bad.  <_<

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I was about to post and then I remembered.  The Prequels and Sequels just aren't worth arguing about.  I'm sure I'll forget that later but for now give me Vader when we didn't know he was a whiny snot as a kid (and also before he wimped out in RotJ).

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2 hours ago, Dynaman said:

I was about to post and then I remembered.  The Prequels and Sequels just aren't worth arguing about.  I'm sure I'll forget that later but for now give me Vader when we didn't know he was a whiny snot as a kid (and also before he wimped out in RotJ).

And the 5 minutes of Vader-matic doing Ginsu on the Rebel troopers...

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10 hours ago, Kanedas Bike said:

And dammit I hate how much this new Trilogy relies on supplementary material. That stuff should enrich the story, not retell it so that it un-muddies the waters.

It's a bad habit a number of different franchises have picked up in recent years... they seem to believe they can boost sales of supplemental material for otherwise unpopular work if they lock essential context for the story behind an ad hoc paywall.

Star Trek did it three times in a row from 2009 on... with the Star Trek '09 movie leaving much of its backstory in a limited comic nobody read, Star Trek: Discovery leaving essential backstory for a bunch of characters in tie-in novels and comics, and Star Trek: Picard only bridging the gap between Star Trek '09's backstory and its own in a novel.

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22 hours ago, tekering said:

That's one advantage novelizations have over the prequels themselves -- you can read what the characters are trying to communicate to each other, without being so distracted by the poor acting as to lose sight of the purpose of the dialogue.  Whenever I see Hayden Christensen on screen, I simply can't concentrate on what the story is trying to convey... and a lot of the other performances are similarly bad.

Like, distractingly bad.  <_<

I always imagined Lucas wanting to get over the live action shootings as quick as possible.

There was also a nice passage of inner monologue fleshing out Dooku's character in the novelization that made the Emperor's betrayal more significant, but of course the movie had to waste it's time with overkill space action (buzz droids wtf?!) and Obi Wan's & Anakin's jump & run adventures.

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Didn’t the novelization also have a more fleshed out discussion between Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace about the perils of spying on Palpatine they wanted Anakin to do. it was really good IIRC.  

Chris

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