New Macross TV Series in 20xx (sometime this decade)

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, jenius said:

She may be 3 chronologically but she is an adult so nothing needs to be too creepy. She clearly doesn't have mental faculties or physical attributes of a 3 year old... it's kind of the Android thing. 

The problem is that while she's physically an adult, mentally her development is skewed such that singing is about all she knows... she has no social awareness beyond professional interactions with Walkure, to such an extent that she doesn't even know how to eat with other people in the final few episodes.

That makes it bloody creepy that the show keeps trying to make her The Sexy One like Sheryl was in Frontier, when she doesn't seem to be mentally equipped to understand being provocative.

It's mentally squicky in the same way that Stig Bernard's dead goldfish replacement girlfriend was in MOSPEADA.

 

2 hours ago, akt_m said:

I agree with you. Until around messer's death the series was going really well. Then the winderemers got way too much focus and those characters were f*cking boring.

On a character level, it was doing OK until about halfway... but the actual plot was still a mess.  There's no feeling that anything Xaos and Walkure did had any real impact on the outcome of the war until the last episode or two.  They'd show up, get their clocks cleaned by the Aerial Knights, and either draw or get defeated, and even the draws played into Windermere's hands.

The characterization took a dive the minute they tried to make Messer sympathetic posthumously.  The guy was a certifiable jackass, and for Xaos to treat finding Messer's secret Diary-of-how-much-my-coworkers-suck like proof that he really cared fell so flat I don't even have a smart-arse simile for how flat it fell.

[ZOR prime]

Who was the Android?

Was it the lead in Walker?

The girl in the beginning was 3.

Yeah not really a good ending,not even a decent draw.

[Seto Kaiba]

50 minutes ago, ZOR prime said:

Who was the Android?

Mikumo Guynemer, the purple-haired leader of Walkure in Macross Delta.

It's not an exact classification, but she's something like a bio-android.  She's flesh-and-blood, but she's designed from the genetic level to be a bio-technological user interface for the Star Shrine.

[ZOR prime]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The problem is that while she's physically an adult, mentally her development is skewed such that singing is about all she knows... she has no social awareness beyond professional interactions with Walkure, to such an extent that she doesn't even know how to eat with other people in the final few episodes.

That makes it bloody creepy that the show keeps trying to make her The Sexy One like Sheryl was in Frontier, when she doesn't seem to be mentally equipped to understand being provocative.

It's mentally squicky in the same way that Stig Bernard's dead goldfish replacement girlfriend was in MOSPEADA.

 

On a character level, it was doing OK until about halfway... but the actual plot was still a mess.  There's no feeling that anything Xaos and Walkure did had any real impact on the outcome of the war until the last episode or two.  They'd show up, get their clocks cleaned by the Aerial Knights, and either draw or get defeated, and even the draws played into Windermere's hands.

The characterization took a dive the minute they tried to make Messer sympathetic posthumously.  The guy was a certifiable jackass, and for Xaos to treat finding Messer's secret Diary-of-how-much-my-coworkers-suck like proof that he really cared fell so flat I don't even have a smart-arse simile for how flat it fell.No

[ZOR prime]

Oh I see the gal with the long hair.

I remember, not really a good conclusion on that series.

[JB0]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:01 PM, akt_m said:

I agree with you. Until around messer's death the series was going really well. Then the winderemers got way too much focus and those characters were f*cking boring.

Someone I was watching Delta with said "The show died with Messer", and I'm inclined to agree.

They basically move into a holding pattern immediately after the funeral, and then suddenly remember three episodes before the end of the show "Oh, right, we had an ongoing plot we haven't done anything with! Better resolve that!"

[ZOR prime]

In almost every series there was a conclusion. Macross, Macross 7, Frontier, a few.

[Mommar]

Do remember the show was extended to double the original length during production.  It was always intended to be concluded with a film.  If you forget the second half except for the last three episodes it all makes sense.  The show would cliff-hanger with Messer being killed.  And the Movie would have covered the course of the last three/four episodes.

Really, with a pair of films like Frontier the story could be pretty easily salvaged.

[Focslain]

23 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Do remember the show was extended to double the original length during production.  It was always intended to be concluded with a film.  If you forget the second half except for the last three episodes it all makes sense.  The show would cliff-hanger with Messer being killed.  And the Movie would have covered the course of the last three/four episodes.

Really, with a pair of films like Frontier the story could be pretty easily salvaged.

Kind of wish they did this, then add something like the history lesson in ep20 as a featurette on the blu-ray. Would have been much better for the series.

[ZOR prime]

1 hour ago, Mommar said:

Do remember the show was extended to double the original length during production.  It was always intended to be concluded with a film.  If you forget the second half except for the last three episodes it all makes sense.  The show would cliff-hanger with Messer being killed.  And the Movie would have covered the course of the last three/four episodes.

Really, with a pair of films like Frontier the story could be pretty easily salvaged.

Yep it can.

[Master Dex]

3 hours ago, Mommar said:

Do remember the show was extended to double the original length during production.  It was always intended to be concluded with a film.  If you forget the second half except for the last three episodes it all makes sense.  The show would cliff-hanger with Messer being killed.  And the Movie would have covered the course of the last three/four episodes.

Really, with a pair of films like Frontier the story could be pretty easily salvaged.

While you're not wrong that it might have been better that way, it turns out the story that the show was originally planned as a 1 cour and extended after production started was a myth. A movie may have been in mind at some point of the production but official word is that once the show was being made it was already a 2 cour show. Really all that means is that there isn't much defense for the lackluster writing.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Master Dex

[ZOR prime]

part 2 Delta dunno bout dat

[Mommar]

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

While you're not wrong that it might have been better that way, it turns out the story that the show was originally planned as a 1 cour and extended after production started was a myth. A movie may have been in mind at some point of the production but official word is that once the show was being made it was already a 2 cour show. Really all that means is that there isn't much defense for the lackluster writing.

Where did you hear that?

[Mommar]

1 hour ago, ZOR prime said:

part 2 Delta dunno bout dat

But there's a chance for some awesome 31A action this time.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, Master Dex said:

While you're not wrong that it might have been better that way, it turns out the story that the show was originally planned as a 1 cour and extended after production started was a myth. A movie may have been in mind at some point of the production but official word is that once the show was being made it was already a 2 cour show. Really all that means is that there isn't much defense for the lackluster writing.

It's not a myth that the show was planned as 1 cour and a movie.  It changed in preproduction, not production.  (During the scripting and storyboarding of the first few episodes, IIRC.)  By the time they went to actual production, it was 2 cour.

You're right that it isn't really a viable defense of the appallingly poor writing in the show's second half... Delta's plot was appallingly thin and unoriginal even before that point anyway.  Roid is Grace 2.0, Keith is Brera, Freyja is a better Ranka than Ranka is...

[Zx31]

Delta was great. It was fun to watch the whole way through. I couldn't say that about Frontier, of which I only liked the last two episodes and the movies (seriously, why did they need to lean into creepy fan service for that many episodes). Ideally I'd like to see the casts of Delta, Frontier, and 7 all interact at some point but that's probably unlikely.

[Podtastic]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's not a myth that the show was planned as 1 cour and a movie.  It changed in preproduction, not production.  (During the scripting and storyboarding of the first few episodes, IIRC.)  By the time they went to actual production, it was 2 cour.

You're right that it isn't really a viable defense of the appallingly poor writing in the show's second half... Delta's plot was appallingly thin and unoriginal even before that point anyway.  Roid is Grace 2.0, Keith is Brera, Freyja is a better Ranka than Ranka is...

Klan Klein was the only Frontier character I gave a damn about. Did she even have an analogue in Delta?

[ZOR prime]

9 hours ago, Zx31 said:

Delta was great. It was fun to watch the whole way through. I couldn't say that about Frontier, of which I only liked the last two episodes and the movies (seriously, why did they need to lean into creepy fan service for that many episodes). Ideally I'd like to see the casts of Delta, Frontier, and 7 all interact at some point but that's probably unlikely.

Yeah, that would be nicw

[spacemanoeuvres]

I can't get past episode 5 of delta. It just doesn't appeal to me but not all of the macross series do. I was not a fan of M7 or Zero either. 

M+ is life and Frontier was not perfect but very enjoyable overall. 

I hope they make something closer to Frontier and M+ this time around. 

[Convectuoso]

10 hours ago, Zx31 said:

Delta was great. It was fun to watch the whole way through. I couldn't say that about Frontier, of which I only liked the last two episodes and the movies (seriously, why did they need to lean into creepy fan service for that many episodes). Ideally I'd like to see the casts of Delta, Frontier, and 7 all interact at some point but that's probably unlikely.

I agree on the fan service part. It annoys me that most shows nowadays focus so much on that to 'please' audiences, when they should put their focus on story and character development

[ZOR prime]

15 minutes ago, spacemanoeuvres said:

I can't get past episode 5 of delta. It just doesn't appeal to me but not all of the macross series do. I was not a fan of M7 or Zero either. 

M+ is life and Frontier was not perfect but very enjoyable overall. 

I hope they make something closer to Frontier and M+ this time around. 

Yeah I liked Macross plus and frontier 

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, Podtastic said:

Klan Klein was the only Frontier character I gave a damn about. Did she even have an analogue in Delta?

"Not directly" would be the most honest answer, I think.

Cpt. Klan Klan's key character traits got redistributed to a couple different characters.  To put it in trope terms, her status as Proud Warrior Race Guy, Token Girl Teammate, and the Meltran in the Painted-On-Pilot-Suit went to Mirage Jenius.  Same as her (ultimately unsuccessful) red-and-blue romance with another soldier.

Her status as a supporting Ms. Fanservice was inherited by Makina, though Makina's more like the show's equivalent of Nanase... the terminally underdeveloped character who exists only to tick off the last few boxes on the generic fetish checklist via gag boobs and a lesbian love interest, who is only relevant to the plot near the end when she's seriously injured by the enemy.

[Master Dex]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's not a myth that the show was planned as 1 cour and a movie.  It changed in preproduction, not production.  (During the scripting and storyboarding of the first few episodes, IIRC.)  By the time they went to actual production, it was 2 cour.

You're right that it isn't really a viable defense of the appallingly poor writing in the show's second half... Delta's plot was appallingly thin and unoriginal even before that point anyway.  Roid is Grace 2.0, Keith is Brera, Freyja is a better Ranka than Ranka is...

Mostly my point so apologies for the over simplification. I knew at least the idea of it changing during production was wrong. 

[Hiryu]

6 hours ago, spacemanoeuvres said:

I can't get past episode 5 of delta. It just doesn't appeal to me but not all of the macross series do. I was not a fan of M7 or Zero either. 

M+ is life and Frontier was not perfect but very enjoyable overall. 

I hope they make something closer to Frontier and M+ this time around. 

This is how I feel as well. Although M7 grew on me as kind of a stand alone show, it was was nowhere near what I would have expected as a show following up plus. 

[Zx31]

7 is the best Macross

[frothymug]

19 hours ago, Zx31 said:

Delta was great. It was fun to watch the whole way through. I couldn't say that about Frontier, of which I only liked the last two episodes and the movies (seriously, why did they need to lean into creepy fan service for that many episodes). Ideally I'd like to see the casts of Delta, Frontier, and 7 all interact at some point but that's probably unlikely.

What fan service are you talking about? I'm confused.

[ZOR prime]

2 hours ago, Hiryu said:

This is how I feel as well. Although M7 grew on me as kind of a stand alone show, it was was nowhere near what I would have expected as a show following up plus. 

Yep stand alone, Macross plus was really different.

[Lorindor]

1 hour ago, frothymug said:

What fan service are you talking about? I'm confused.

I can't speak for Zx31, but most of episode 8 of Frontier would count as creepy fan service to me. Klan Klan's loli form is definitely creepy. And the several shower scenes with underage school girl as well. Yes, these things almost ruined Frontier for me 

[Zx31]

7 minutes ago, Lorindor said:

I can't speak for Zx31, but most of episode 8 of Frontier would count as creepy fan service to me. Klan Klan's loli form is definitely creepy. And the several shower scenes with underage school girl as well. Yes, these things almost ruined Frontier for me 

Yup. After an entire episode focused on chasing Sheryl's panties around campus, I about wrote the show off as being only about crude sex jokes and Alto being innept at most everything.

[jenius]

There is fan service in everything though. Even Minmay had a zero g shower. Also, if these shows focus on high school boys, then there's an amazing restraint in the amount of fan service you would expect. I wasn't too keen on it but I totally get it given the characters and audience of Frontier.

[Zx31]

I'm not saying it isn't in the other shows, I'm saying that it was such a major and obvious focus of Frontier that it caused me to hate watching it. If it had just been Sheryl, and they didn't have a full panty episode, it would have been fine. I think the sexy angle works for Sheryl's character as that's the image she's built and exploited. My issue was that they also sexualized Ranka, Nanase, and Klan to an excessive degree. I actually like Klan as a character, but you can't tell me they didn't give her both of those forms for one very specific reason.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Zx31

[frothymug]

Well, you guys are making it sound like Frontier was borderline ecchi... which is not even close to the case. Yes, the panty episode was ridiculous. But if all you saw was the *ahem* "fan service", then you must have been looking for it where it isn't found.

I don't like fan service, either. But Frontier is soooo tame compared to the anime standard. There ARE 24 other episodes, you know.

[Zx31]

I have to disagree, and I take issue with the insinuation that anyone that has a legitimat criticism is "looking for it".

[Petrov27]

I would agree that I wasnt thrilled with the one particular episode, and the Klan situation seemed needlessly awkward (but really, do they even ever kiss? I seem to recall he flat out expresses that he will not date her/be with her "that way" because of her looking underage as micro but don't remember  all the specifics)

There was just so much else in the series that was great that I can forgive these things and like F about 1000 times more than D....

[kajnrig]

2 hours ago, Zx31 said:

Yup. After an entire episode focused on chasing Sheryl's panties around campus, I about wrote the show off as being only about crude sex jokes and Alto being innept at most everything.

I remember thinking this after that episode, too. Up to that point, it had followed all the tropes for a high school harem anime, and that was just more of the same. Hypersexualization is still a major criticism I have of the show, and of (shounen) anime culture in general.

2 hours ago, jenius said:

There is fan service in everything though. Even Minmay had a zero g shower. Also, if these shows focus on high school boys, then there's an amazing restraint in the amount of fan service you would expect. I wasn't too keen on it but I totally get it given the characters and audience of Frontier.

1 hour ago, frothymug said:

Well, you guys are making it sound like Frontier was borderline ecchi... which is not even close to the case. Yes, the panty episode was ridiculous. But if all you saw was the *ahem* "fan service", then you must have been looking for it where it isn't found.

I don't like fan service, either. But Frontier is soooo tame compared to the anime standard. There ARE 24 other episodes, you know.

Being ubiquitous doesn't mean it can't be a point of criticism, though. It would at least be more tolerable if it were more even-handed and the boys got crotch shots of their banana hammocks and had an episode where people chased Alto's sports cup through town or something. Have some legitimate sexual tension between Ozma and Bobby, same as between Sheryl and Ranka (and Ranka and Nanase?). And to be fair, Frontier does do a better job of bishounening Michel and Alto up than most shounen anime, but that's about the extent of it. There's nothing for the female gaze.

I saw Demi-chan wa Kataritai (Interviews with Monster Girls) when it was airing, and it handled sexualization pretty well, all things considered. It's closest to a high school harem anime, yet the only ones overtly sexualized are the two adults, and the show makes efforts to make that sexualization contextually appropriate (when the succubus teacher is actively/accidentally trying to seduce the human teacher, for instance). It doesn't have camera shots panning creepily over pubescent girls' bodies.

42 minutes ago, Petrov27 said:

I would agree that I wasnt thrilled with the one particular episode, and the Klan situation seemed needlessly awkward (but really, do they even ever kiss? I seem to recall he flat out expresses that he will not date her/be with her "that way" because of her looking underage as micro but don't remember  all the specifics)

There was just so much else in the series that was great that I can forgive these things and like F about 1000 times more than D....

There are hints throughout the show before his death that he's interested in her as well, but that the fear of the social taboo against being romantic with a child(-looking teen/young adult) keeps him from acting on his interest.

Macross Delta, on the other hand, I think actually does a better job of keeping itself clean. (At least as far as I can remember, and I don't remember much, because... it's Delta.) Outside of their roles in Walkure, the girls are largely not made sexy for the viewer's sake. That being said, I don't know if that's because of admirable restraint on the part of the writers or because of general ineptitude on the part of the writers. Because... it's Delta.