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Mission 22: Extreme Brave  

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I've seen a lot of anime start off with promise and then turn into total trainwrecks over the years, Guilty Crown and Aldnoah Zero come to mind, but I never thought it would happen to Macross.

And damn, I can't believe people are actually trying to make it sound like Frontier was just as bad as Delta is now. Even when Frontier had lulls, it still held my interest, still captured my emotions. The worst part about Delta is that I'm not even mad about it, I just watch it and when the episode is done I'm like "Okay, cool."

Agree with your comments. Though I guess in the end everyone is entitled to an opinion. Frontier was not perfect, but it wasn't bad either. Not to mention the composer/songs/singer combo for it was about as great as you could ever hope.

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The reason I strongly speculate the current problem of the show stems from Kawomori and the staff and not coming from sponsorship or budget or not having enough content is due to 2 reasons:

#1) this interview with director Yasuda Kenji published back in May:

https://karice.wordpress.com/2016/05/29/p509/

Where he states this:

That tells me he has done more adaption anime work than creating original shows. So the strength of creativity and keeping it balanced still fall upon kawamori.

#2) At the end of June Kawamori announced this:

http://www.project-the-next.com

And this announcement came 2 weeks after he attended Beijing Comicon. The bottom of the website copyrighted it to kawamori Shoji and Xiamen Skyloong Media (a China bases entertainment company). With my recent dealing in China trying to launch my Captain China comic over there, I've learned that there is a huge demand to develop entertainment IP, content, and commercial properties for the Chinese market and they are willing to invest an unbelievable amount of money to make it happen, and they want it FAST FAST FAST! And judging by the video clip on that site, THE NEXT is already well under way in production. This is unusual too since I've never seen Kawomori splitting attention when a Macross series is actually running.

None of the Macross series since Plus had perfect writing. But there was at least a consistency of following it's own internal logic with character depiction, motivation, technology and keeping the overall story in coherence. And I found none of that in the second half of Delta. It feels like someone trying to ape a Macross show without grasping those core values, and having no direction on where to go now.

So my gut feeling is that Kawomori has already jumped ship and hand the majority of Delta's production over to Yasuda Kenji, and his inexperience in handling original creative work is causing the show to decline in quality.

Keep in mind that Mac Plus was not as popular (at the time) as M7 was to the Japanese market. Though I would agree that Mac Plus is by far the best internationally received Macross production conceived and directed by Kawamori. Ironically it was never intended to be a Macross story in the beginning, but rather a test pilot competition story inspired by Top Gun. Additionally Kawamori was doing both Mac Plus and M7 at the same time and one could argue he phoned in the first couple of cour's of M7 as well.

So it is possible his new project was taking up his time during the production of the second cour of Delta and thus he delegated the final cut supervising directoral responsibilities to Yasuda Kenji.

Personally, based on his history with the franchise, it wouldn't be surprised if he is looking for a way out of it. Being the president of Satellite has given him the opportunity to produce other anime and now with his new relationship to Chinese financing, he can do stories he may have been sitting on that Japanese sponsors won't consider. It may also, if successful, provide an outlet for other Anime icons to find funding for projects that would not otherwise be produced domestically.

I am hopeful his new project does well, because when he is on his game, he can spin a very good yarn. I think of the episode he wrote for Cowboy Bebop, the segment he did for Genius Party as well as Mac Plus that have really impressed me over the years.

Something we should definitely keep our eyes on. If he does find a way out, it will be interesting to see where the franchise goes, if anywhere since he has never tried to mentor any successors to develop new stories. He'd likely always be willing to design new valks because he does enjoy designing aircraft after all.

Edited by Zinjo
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Keep in mind that Mac Plus was not as popular (at the time) as M7 was to the Japanese market. Though I would agree that Mac Plus is by far the best internationally received Macross production conceived and directed by Kawamori. Ironically it was never intended to be a Macross story in the beginning, but rather a test pilot competition story inspired by Top Gun. Additionally Kawamori was doing both Mac Plus and M7 at the same time and one could argue he phoned in the first couple of cour's of M7 as well.

So it is possible his new project was taking up his time during the production of the second cour of Delta and thus he delegated the final cut supervising directoral responsibilities to Yasuda Kenji.

Personally, based on his history with the franchise, it wouldn't be surprised if he is looking for a way out of it. Being the president of Satellite has given him the opportunity to produce other anime and now with his new relationship with Chinese financing, he can do stories he may have been sitting on that Japanese sponsors won't consider. It may also, if successful, provide an outlet for other Anime icons to find funding for projects that would not otherwise be produced domestically.

I am hopeful his new project does well, because when he is on his game, he can spin a very good yarn. I think of the episode he wrote for Cowboy Bebop and the segment he did for Genius Party that really impressed me.

Something we should definitely keep our eyes on. If he does find a way out, it will be interesting to see where the franchise goes, if anywhere since he has never tried to mentor any successors.

fwiw...

I reckon it was actually Shinichiro Watanabe that directed and really made Macross Plus alot better and much more awesome than Kawamori ever even dreamed about. Especially for the western market/audience. After Macross Plus, Watanabe made other anime that were very very well-received outside of Japan, such as Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, etc, etc...

Whereas Kawamori did Arjuna afterwards...

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Keep in mind that Mac Plus was not as popular (at the time) as M7 was to the Japanese market. Though I would agree that Mac Plus is by far the best internationally received Macross production conceived and directed by Kawamori. Ironically it was never intended to be a Macross story in the beginning, but rather a test pilot competition story inspired by Top Gun. Additionally Kawamori was doing both Mac Plus and M7 at the same time and one could argue he phoned in the first couple of cour's of M7 as well.

​Maybe I did't phrase my self correctly when I said "None of the Macross series since Plus..." I also meant that Macross Plus is included in the batch and is flawed in it's writing as well. None of the characters hand any real journey or arch. It had ideas and but some where never explored to the fullest.

And no disrespect to some of your comments, but I don't really need a history lesson on Macross Plus or 7 since I was there when it happened and I've read most of the articles and interviews back when the series were running.

I reckon it was actually Shinichiro Watanabe that directed and really made Macross Plus alot better and much more awesome than Kawamori ever even dreamed about.

This I agree with whole-heartedly. I don't think Shoji is as good of a creator as people (and himself) make it out to be. You read his interviews and you see him talk about concepts, ideas, or emotions, but never really emphasis on any writing and story.

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And damn, I can't believe people are actually trying to make it sound like Frontier was just as bad as Delta is now. Even when Frontier had lulls, it still held my interest, still captured my emotions. The worst part about Delta is that I'm not even mad about it, I just watch it and when the episode is done I'm like "Okay, cool."

If you're referring to me, then I will point out that I never said Frontier is "just as bad" as Delta. For the record, at this point in the series I do think Frontier was better (or at least I was more into it, for what that's worth), but objectively it wasn't that much better, was it? It suffered from a lot of the same problems Delta does. But, to be fair, Frontier did have a more focused story with fewer characters to develop. Actually, that might have been a problem, because Frontier had a lot of filler and I think at least one recap episode. Has Delta had a recap episode? I don't think it has. I mean, there was that one where they recapped most of Macross, but that was a little more ambitious than your average clip-show.

I'm sure there are people out there who are really invested in Delta right now. I think it's important to take into account that we're also all eight years older than we were when Frontier was airing. I know that makes a difference for me, since I'm a lot farther from the target demographic than I was in 2008.

So, on an unrelated note, I was watching Frontier earlier and remembering what everybody was irritated at Alto for back when Frontier was new. Hayate is known for constantly losing arms, and Alto was known for constantly purging FAST packs.

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You mean Roid. With Heinz dying his plans wont work. He keeps asking who the hell is Mikumo to be able to destroy the Protoculture structures. The chamber provides the answer, the Star Singer. Given her genetic memory Mikumo is likely cloned from a Protoculture Star Singer. Which means she has greater admin rights to the system than Heinz. With Mikumo infiltrating Windermere Roid has her where he wants. .

Thank you for the explanation RedWolf, I re-watch the whole episode to notice the first seconds, where the ep begins with Roid exiting the chamber and Xao discucssing with Theo about the chmaber being sealed. I don't know if you are right about Mikumo being the Star Singer, but that's probably how the scenario will lead us to.

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Was it pointed out how the imagery of the Star Singer resembled the ruins in Macross Zero? I saw that pointed out somewhere and it's probably important or something. Though to be honest I don't remember, so maybe I'm totally off. Somebody help me out here.

Yeah it was in the 20th episode when they explained that the same markings were on the Vajra (that would have been contacted by the protoculture), the Macross Zero human bird etc... I think this is not relevant to us, but for people who would be new to Macross universe and the unified theory that explains how music can been used as a weapon.

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Even the name of late protoculture emperor, as cited by Windermere, Rorqualwhathename Mayan is a direct reference to Zero`s Mayan island and implicates something, probably a Protoculture colony, former Altira inhabitants or not, present in the island that would have indeed interbreed with the natives long ago.

Edited by Aries Turner
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An important thing to know is the making movies & television is a collaborate process. One person can seen as the mastermind with the guiding vision but more than one person is responsible for the success or failure. Kawamori is great at mechanical designs and has some good overall ideas. He wasn't the only one involved. I would say that his visions from Macross Zero and onward has been too visionary. That's not to say a good team couldn't make something good out of his visions.

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Yeah it was in the 20th episode when they explained that the same markings were on the Vajra (that would have been contacted by the protoculture), the Macross Zero human bird etc... I think this is not relevant to us, but for people who would be new to Macross universe and the unified theory that explains how music can been used as a weapon.

In Mac Zero, I figured it was the PC insignia (which it may well be), Frontier established the markings originated with the Vajra.

​Maybe I did't phrase my self correctly when I said "None of the Macross series since Plus..." I also meant that Macross Plus is included in the batch and is flawed in it's writing as well. None of the characters hand any real journey or arch. It had ideas and but some where never explored to the fullest.

And no disrespect to some of your comments, but I don't really need a history lesson on Macross Plus or 7 since I was there when it happened and I've read most of the articles and interviews back when the series were running.

This I agree with whole-heartedly. I don't think Shoji is as good of a creator as people (and himself) make it out to be. You read his interviews and you see him talk about concepts, ideas, or emotions, but never really emphasis on any writing and story.

Don't mistake establishing a context with patronizing.

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An important thing to know is the making movies & television is a collaborate process. One person can seen as the mastermind with the guiding vision but more than one person is responsible for the success or failure. Kawamori is great at mechanical designs and has some good overall ideas. He wasn't the only one involved. I would say that his visions from Macross Zero and onward has been too visionary. That's not to say a good team couldn't make something good out of his visions.

So I guess you're really saying the Delta team are a bunch of incompetents...

:bump:

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I would say that his visions from Macross Zero and onward has been too visionary. That's not to say a good team couldn't make something good out of his visions.

I think Shoji is interested in explaining Protoculture backstory and all that mythology building. But I actually find it unnecessary and for the most part never get any satisfying explanation or answers. It's kinda became a story crutch that the series leans on too often.

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I think Shoji is interested in explaining Protoculture backstory and all that mythology building. But I actually find it unnecessary and for the most part never get any satisfying explanation or answers. It's kinda became a story crutch that the series leans on too often.

I say we just spell it out who the Protoculture were, what they looked like, what their goals truly were, how they ended as a civilization and then move on. The dragging out of the mystery needs to be resolved and then move on to a new Era of Macross.

And please no one reply with the douchey response of "Well it's quite logical or if you think about it like this, etc". I love a good mystery yet on the other hand it's time to answer these questions and move on. Macross is bound by nothing to be whatever it wants to be and that includes never seeing the SDF-1, a VF-1, or mention of Minmay ever again. This series can either go into the future or back to the days just after FB 2012. I'm open to the possibilities.

And as far as Lady-M or the Star Singer goes, probably won't happen but I still think that Sara Nome returned from wherever she went at the end of Zero. Just my Two Cents.

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I think Shoji is interested in explaining Protoculture backstory and all that mythology building. But I actually find it unnecessary and for the most part never get any satisfying explanation or answers. It's kinda became a story crutch that the series leans on too often.

I say we just spell it out who the Protoculture were, what they looked like, what their goals truly were, how they ended as a civilization and then move on. The dragging out of the mystery needs to be resolved and then move on to a new Era of Macross.

And please no one reply with the douchey response of "Well it's quite logical or if you think about it like this, etc". I love a good mystery yet on the other hand it's time to answer these questions and move on. Macross is bound by nothing to be whatever it wants to be and that includes never seeing the SDF-1, a VF-1, or mention of Minmay ever again. This series can either go into the future or back to the days just after FB 2012. I'm open to the possibilities.

And as far as Lady-M or the Star Singer goes, probably won't happen but I still think that Sara Nome returned from wherever she went at the end of Zero. Just my Two Cents.

See, this is exactly where an anime-team's competency comes into play.

Kawamori's sci-fi concepts and visions for the Macross franchise are actually quite sound in general.

It's in the details of how it's implemented, executed and realized where things go awry.Especially with the anime that came after MPlus.

Yes, the anime-team has to balance out the sponsors' merchandising goals and stuff, but that shouldn't really be that much of a challenge IF the anime-team is really that competent in crafting a well-structured and coherently interesting story-telling and much better characters/characterizations.

I mean, for example, Venture Brothers has totally crappy animation and designs, but it's infinitely more interesting and enjoyable to watch and follow its rather complicated storyline and characters than anything in both Frontier and Delta anime...

Edited by treatment
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See, this is exactly where an anime-team's competency comes into play.

Kawamori's sci-fi concepts and visions for the Macross franchise are actually quite sound in general.

It's in the details of how it's implemented, executed and realized where things go awry.Especially with the anime that came after MPlus.

Yes, the anime-team has to balance out the sponsors' merchandising goals and stuff, but that shouldn't really be that much of a challenge IF the anime-team is really that competent in crafting a well-structured and coherently interesting story-telling and much better characters/characterizations.

I mean, for example, Venture Brothers has totally crappy animation and designs, but it's infinitely more interesting and enjoyable to watch and follow its rather complicated storyline and characters than anything in both Frontier and Delta anime...

I won't argue against characterization and content, they are holy grails to me. Many a classic TV show and Movie are such for those very reasons.

It is very true that a solid story and characters will make a production more popular and give sponsors a lot of investment returns, however try convincing business school graduates how an artistic watershed story will provide a return on their investment?

As for Venture Bros., the US TV animation industry has been starving the beast for a long time now and the bar is set pretty low for visuals. Anime has to have strong visuals to be seriously considered.

Edited by Zinjo
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Maybe Bandai and the other sponsors should give more of the budget-money to pay the writers and animators better than possibly blowing it all off on their rather seemingly very expensive production of AceCombat-like graphics...

Then it wouldn't be anime... Besides writers are considered ditch diggers of any visual medium. Mainly because any goof in a corner office fancies himself a great writer, having never penned a page in their lives. Animators are even less regarded despite the fact that anime and animation in general can't be produced without them. :rolleyes:

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If you're referring to me, then I will point out that I never said Frontier is "just as bad" as Delta. For the record, at this point in the series I do think Frontier was better (or at least I was more into it, for what that's worth), but objectively it wasn't that much better, was it? It suffered from a lot of the same problems Delta does. But, to be fair, Frontier did have a more focused story with fewer characters to develop. Actually, that might have been a problem, because Frontier had a lot of filler and I think at least one recap episode. Has Delta had a recap episode? I don't think it has. I mean, there was that one where they recapped most of Macross, but that was a little more ambitious than your average clip-show.

Wasn't referring to you specifically, just a few posts I noticed with the same general theme. I dunno, at the moment I'd have to say I feel it was objectively a lot better, but it's been a while since I watched the whole series so I'd have to do that again before I can confidently make that claim. If Frontier wasn't that great then Delta must just be straight up terrible ^_^

I'm sure there are people out there who are really invested in Delta right now. I think it's important to take into account that we're also all eight years older than we were when Frontier was airing. I know that makes a difference for me, since I'm a lot farther from the target demographic than I was in 2008.

Yea that definitely did occur to me, but when I think about it my hype level for Delta was pretty damn strong before it aired and for the first few episodes. So I did feel a lot more invested before, and it simply lost that investment. I'm hoping the last few episodes can at least right the ship somewhat. If not then maybe the movies will be better.

But I think I'm gonna go ahead and start that Frontier rewatch soon

So, on an unrelated note, I was watching Frontier earlier and remembering what everybody was irritated at Alto for back when Frontier was new. Hayate is known for constantly losing arms, and Alto was known for constantly purging FAST packs.

Haha I remember the episode when he first got to use the Armor Pack and he had this scene where he discarded every piece after he used up the ammo, like some gunslinger in an action film. But then I realized he was also throwing away extra thrust power and defensive capabilities. I thought that was pretty funny.

But I think people used to get on Alto's case for wrecking valks in general. I don't think his track record was much better than Hayate's

Edited by Raptor One
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Wasn't referring to you specifically, just a few posts I noticed with the same general theme. I dunno, at the moment I'd have to say I feel it was objectively a lot better, but it's been a while since I watched the whole series so I'd have to do that again before I can confidently make that claim. If Frontier wasn't that great then Delta must just be straight up terrible ^_^

Yea that definitely did occur to me, but when I think about it my hype level for Delta was pretty damn strong before it aired and for the first few episodes. So I did feel a lot more invested before, and it simply lost that investment. I'm hoping the last few episodes can at least right the ship somewhat. If not then maybe the movies will be better.

But I think I'm gonna go ahead and start that Frontier rewatch soon

Haha I remember the episode when he first got to use the Armor Pack and he had this scene where he discarded every piece after he used up the ammo, like some gunslinger in an action film. But then I realized he was also throwing away extra thrust power and defensive capabilities. I thought that was pretty funny.

But I think people used to get on Alto's case for wrecking valks in general. I don't think his track record was much better than Hayate's

I always thought it was ridiculous to to "say" you are swearing off Kabuki, but never cut your hair! If you want to visually show how serious he was with a break with his past, a hair cut would do it.

Edited by Zinjo
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the US TV animation industry has been starving the beast for a long time now and the bar is set pretty low for visuals.

Which is why I find it strange and frustrating when a show like Young Justice doesn't get the attention it deserves. Great characterization, plot and execution with really good animation, and yet it seems to me like so few have seen it.

And it seems to me like the bar for mecha anime is set really low. I imagine it's because we mecha fans will put up with a lot of nonsense to get to the mecha action. When Delta first started I wasn't crazy about how bananas it was. But I told myself and others I'd watch Delta and be excited for it, because I'll put up with a lot to get to the cool stuff.

Unfortunately, I think the producers know this.

Yea that definitely did occur to me, but when I think about it my hype level for Delta was pretty damn strong before it aired and for the first few episodes. So I did feel a lot more invested before, and it simply lost that investment. I'm hoping the last few episodes can at least right the ship somewhat. If not then maybe the movies will be better.

I think it's really hard to measure art objectively, since by its nature it is subjective. I don't think Frontier was all that good from an objective standpoint (production value, recycled animation, plot and characterization shortcomings), but I still love it. I love it because it resonated with me on levels that other shows haven't, and because of that it'll always be something special to me. And to be fair, it had some amazing production value sometimes.

Delta is the same way. It has a lot of shortcomings, but there are things that I like about it that will stick with me.

Expectations certainly play a large role in these things. I imagine those who were super hyped about Delta are feeling the disappointment more than those who went in a little more cautiously. I remember that was certainly the case for Frontier, as a lot of people had expectations for that which weren't met.

As an example, I think the reason I enjoyed Macross 7 as much as I did was because of my attitude going in. It had such a bad reputation that I avoided for a long time. I even had one friend who, when I asked him about 7, insisted to me that I don't watch it. So I didn't, for a while.

Then Gundam 00 came out, and it disappointed me so greatly (talk about a show that makes no sense) that I was desperate for anything mecha, so I started watching 7, knowing full well that it was probably going to be terrible. And I ended up loving it.

And that's probably why I loved Frontier, too. I went in with lower expectations, so I wasn't as disappointed when things didn't stack up against other shows like, say, Macross Plus. I think Macross 7 has primed me for just about anything the franchise can throw at me at this point.

I don't mean to bash Frontier (or Delta for that matter), I'm just trying to put things into perspective and make sure that I (and maybe others) am looking at it from all the angles I can, rather than just my own limited experience.

Edited by Product9
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As for M7, i had no idea what to expect, then I started watching it and gave up (on my first attempt) before the good stuff started.

I muscled through the first two cours to find the 3rd and 4th to be something I could enjoy. It still sits at the bottom of the lists of Macross faves but at least it is on the list now...

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*Looks at Lana's Konig Orgel...*

attachicon.gifMacross7thChordKonigMonster.jpg~original.jpg

There's a Macross manga featuring VF-9s and NO ONE TOLD ME!??

Or is that the only time it appears?

Expectations certainly play a large role in these things. I imagine those who were super hyped about Delta are feeling the disappointment more than those who went in a little more cautiously. I remember that was certainly the case for Frontier, as a lot of people had expectations for that which weren't met.

And that's probably why I loved Frontier, too. I went in with lower expectations, so I wasn't as disappointed when things didn't stack up against other shows like, say, Macross Plus. I think Macross 7 has primed me for just about anything the franchise can throw at me at this point.

I don't mean to bash Frontier (or Delta for that matter), I'm just trying to put things into perspective and make sure that I (and maybe others) am looking at it from all the angles I can, rather than just my own limited experience.

Yea expectations definitely have a HUGE role to play in our enjoyment of things. I remember when I first saw Avengers my hype level was so high that I didn't even enjoy it as much as I could have.

But with Frontier v. Delta (Dawn of Fanservice) what I was trying to say that my expectations were equally high for both, in fact, my expectations for Delta might have even been a little lower, but I still ended up enjoying Frontier more (so far) which is why for me, Frontier is the better series based on what's been seen so far.

But looking at things from different perspectives is a valuable exercise too, so I may have also gotten a little too caught up in my own perception to acknowledge that Frontier might not be some people's cup of tea in comparison to Delta.

I always thought it was ridiculous to to "say" you are swearing off Kabuki, but never cut your hair! If you want to visually show how serious he was with a break with his past, a hair cut would do it.

And give up being called Princess constantly?? NEVER!

Edited by Raptor One
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There's a Macross manga featuring VF-9s and NO ONE TOLD ME!??

Or is that the only time it appears?

Yea expectations definitely have a HUGE role to play in our enjoyment of things. I remember when I first saw Avengers my hype level was so high that I didn't even enjoy it as much as I could have.

But with Frontier v. Delta (Dawn of Fanservice) what I was trying to say that my expectations were equally high for both, in fact, my expectations for Delta might have even been a little lower, but I still ended up enjoying Frontier more (so far) which is why for me, Frontier is the better series based on what's been seen so far.

But looking at things from different perspectives is a valuable exercise too, so I may have also gotten a little too caught up in my own perception to acknowledge that Frontier might not be some people's cup of tea in comparison to Delta.

And give up being called Princess constantly?? NEVER!

One would think waking up in make up would have been enough to realise it was time to cut the ole mop...

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Maybe Bandai and the other sponsors should give more of the budget-money to pay the writers and animators better than possibly blowing it all off on their rather seemingly very expensive production of AceCombat-like graphics...

Speaking of Ace Combat. I'm reminded of (I believe) Ace Combat III. The one with the kid living in a town occupied by an enemy fighter squadron. Kid is the narrator of the game. The cut scenes have super limited animation. Might just be all still images. On the other hand the story within the cut scenes is engaging. A good story can make up for animation that is lacking. If there's good animation at least you can make up for a weak story by looking at the pretty pictures.

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Speaking of Ace Combat. I'm reminded of (I believe) Ace Combat III. The one with the kid living in a town occupied by an enemy fighter squadron. Kid is the narrator of the game. The cut scenes have super limited animation. Might just be all still images. On the other hand the story within the cut scenes is engaging. A good story can make up for animation that is lacking. If there's good animation at least you can make up for a weak story by looking at the pretty pictures.

You're off by one, the Ace Combat you were referring to was IV. And yes the atmosphere around those "cutscenes" were fantastic.

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Neutral. Some good action. And some missed moments (like the instarescue of the two girls). Also, Cassim is someone we knew very briefly and he nearly died of old age, yet they tried to make it as emotional as Messer's death, right down to scrolling credits for an ending.

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