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Mission 18: Sense Emergence  

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All the griping over the fighter-only combat and relative airspeed advantage, etc aside...

Why hasn't anyone in Delta Platoon thought about doing this

When there's an SV-262 on their tail?

Go back to when Messer died. He was using his head guns.

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So, I'm seeing a lot of comments about not understanding what happened in the episode. What's not to understand? Mikumo and crew started to sing at the ruins, which amplified their abilities because that's what those ruins do, and that resulted in a runaway reaction between Freja and Hayate. Since we already have seen that Hayate has been more and more overwhelmed by Freja's singing and her connection with him, it stands to reason that when her singing is amplified by the ruins its going to have a much more profound effect on the guy. When Freja and Hayate resonate, we get that effect inside of Hayate's brain head that isn't dissimilar to what happens to a person who's been Var'd. So the real mystery is what does the synchronization have to do with the Var syndrome. My guess is that much like the Vajra bacteria, Var could have a good or bad effect depending on circumstances, and I'm sure the power of song (positive song at least) will turn it all around in the end.

I guess Freja's trance as well as Mikumo's reactions were a little unexpected, but it's really no weirder than anything else that's happened in Delta thus far. Also, that the amplified song caused some dudes to age rapidly is something that hasn't yet been explained. Still, not that weird. Maybe the frenetic imagery is what's throwing people.

If song and age do have a correlation, then I further guess that song is going to ultimately cure the short lifespan of the Windermere people, but that's already been hypothesized by other members before me.

The confusion comes from this episode being jammed a lot of information on screen in rapid fire. It's not the plot aspect but the visual information given. There are several confusing images cutting from one scene to another, some psychological and some perhaps symbolic mixed in with actual events occurring. Several times before I can grasp what is happening visually it suddenly cuts in another point-of-view and then quickly cuts into another separate scene. All this do fall under the strength of the director's pacing and visual storytelling, and it is not handled well in this episode.

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Once the pilot cuts into Battroid mode in a situation like that he loses all his energy. To re-engage the opposing fighter he would have to switch modes and build his energy. If you take a jet fighter into a climb after an opponent and go into burner after you start the climb its like holding a lighter upside down (this came directly from a fighter pilot who did this in an engagement at Cope Thunder back in 1994, he ended up pretty much hammer stalling his F-16 at 22K and had to let the FLCS computer recover it). Jet engines just don't instantly push the aircraft frame up to speed, the engines have to move the frame forward so it would take a minute or so (I am guessing the time for these style engines). It would take the battroid pilot a couple of minutes to regain his forward energy for re-engagement during which time the opposing pilot would have more than likely watched and reacted coming around for another pass. Energy is life in air to air, the pilot with the most energy dictates the dogfight and if the opposing pilot is smart like Chronocidal stated he won't engage on his opponents term but will maneuver using their energy advantage for an opening that will give them the shot they want

That I believe is why there have been no real multi mode engagements. Unless your opponent switches over to battroid which is limited to hovering it would be pretty much be suicide. Plus the Windermerans preoccupation with the "wind" and the strange birds of their planet, I have a feeling they prefer fighting using their wings which they spout on about.

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Pretty much, yep. ^_^ The thrust to weight ratios of valks must be insane to do the things they do. Modern tactics and technology are irreversibly intertwined, so trying to apply tactics in a future like this is just a mental exercise at best.

All this isn't to say there's no use for battroid mode, but in an atmosphere, it just imposes a lot of limits, no matter how powerful your engines are. Unless you've got technology allowing you to generate and dissipate momentum instantaneously, you're still fighting a classic air battle where energy is the most precious resource you have.

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These engines are limited due to both heat and physical frame stress when in an atmosphere. I can guarantee the engine management computer's OFP's on a Valk make sure of that, trimming the engine down to prevent someone from making a grease stain of themselves.

Yes the T/W are way up there but still going from 0 to 700 would take a a minute. Remember the opponent is flying a VF also so the opposing pilot is still at full speed maneuvering for his next shot.. The speeds may increase but the tactics still pretty much stay the same. What I basically said was that energy is key as Chronocidal stated. I don't believe either that Battroid would be commonly used in atmosphere so much either because of that.

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It's interesting how Battroid usage moved from of the original need to have something capable of ground-fighting a giant humanoid to something done by better pilots in certain circumstances during aerial combat, and most of that probably goes to Max Jenius's particular needs. Though he was fighting against Milia in her Queadluun, which adds a few twists of its own.

(There's also Macross Zero, but I'm going to consider production dates first versus story timeline, since Zero threw in a lot of cool stuff that we didn't get in the original series.)

But the first thing that comes to mind when I consider Isamu versus Guld is that whenever they transformed to Battroid the other guy would always hit them at least once, for which they'd have to use the arm shield. I'd imagine that the average mook that tries to transform in aerial combat will just get shot down... or simply flown past like Bogue did to the two VF-31As in Episode 13.

Edited by This Confuses Gamlin
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I noticed that also. They went from using battroid in air to air on a consistent basis to rarely using it. Like they suddenly discovered physics. On Mac plus that was a constant, once the advantage by surprise was gone (it would only last a few seconds which is all you would actually need in combat against an inexperienced foe) they switched back to disengage while using the arm shield to protect themselves.

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After spending the summer in Tokyo shopping and buying Walkure related Macross Delta merchandise, I have come to the conclusion Macross D is nothing more than a system to deliver an Idol Group. I am waiting for a Walkure Cafe and Theater to open in Akiba. Hopefully they will sell Pineapple Salad and Ragna Water Spiders at the cafe! ^^

As for this episode, again great idol music and I liked the stuff happening at the ruins but the mecha combat was meh. Too much flash and too little substance.

Don't forget the jellyfish crisps!

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If the pilot staying in fighter knows what's good for him? He's not going to go anywhere near the range of the guy in battroid. And he wouldn't have to.

That's one other thing speed gains you: range. The guy who zips around at arm's length lobbing missiles at the relatively stationary battroid isn't at much risk from most of his weaponry, because his own weapons inherit a massive energy advantage from his speed. He may still have energy weapons to contend with, but the guy in battroid is a relatively fixed point to unload on, and the fighter can just let loose with everything he has at his own maximum range, while he might be outside of the battroid's max range entirely.

Even if the fighter closes with the battroid, the battroid's missiles are at an absolute minimum level of performance, making them that much easier to avoid or outrun. On top of that, if he does close in, because he's moving so fast, his missiles might be coming from more angles than the battroid can effectively cover simultaneously, and he'll have to run.

Note, that's all using current day tactics and missile performance, but even 50 years in the future, missiles launched from a moving platform are going to go faster and farther.

That's a little like trying to strafe an AA gun. The fighter is a lot faster, sure, but keep in mind the relative airspeed. If the fighter is going fast, and the target is stationary, then you can think of the target heading at the stationary fighter at the same relative rate of closure. So, it's a moot point because speed is a relative factor here, so any advantage gained by shooting from a fast moving platform is negating by the fact that the fighter is headed toward the incoming bullets at that very same airspeed. Cancels out.

There's a reason the A-10 is regarded as such a great CAS airplane, and it isn't because it's fast.

Also remembe that just because a pilot switches to battroid, he doesn't have to stay there. The moment it becomes disadvantageous he can switch back to fighter (in an instant too, if the transformation animation is to be believed) and he's off again. Alto did that when Brera fired missiles at him, and a moment later he was flying about as fast as the missiles were. Of course, the YF-29 is a very high performance Valkyrie, but the point remains.

Once the pilot cuts into Battroid mode in a situation like that he loses all his energy. To re-engage the opposing fighter he would have to switch modes and build his energy. If you take a jet fighter into a climb after an opponent and go into burner after you start the climb its like holding a lighter upside down (this came directly from a fighter pilot who did this in an engagement at Cope Thunder back in 1994, he ended up pretty much hammer stalling his F-16 at 22K and had to let the FLCS computer recover it). Jet engines just don't instantly push the aircraft frame up to speed, the engines have to move the frame forward so it would take a minute or so (I am guessing the time for these style engines). It would take the battroid pilot a couple of minutes to regain his forward energy for re-engagement during which time the opposing pilot would have more than likely watched and reacted coming around for another pass. Energy is life in air to air, the pilot with the most energy dictates the dogfight and if the opposing pilot is smart like Chronocidal stated he won't engage on his opponents term but will maneuver using their energy advantage for an opening that will give them the shot they want

That I believe is why there have been no real multi mode engagements. Unless your opponent switches over to battroid which is limited to hovering it would be pretty much be suicide. Plus the Windermerans preoccupation with the "wind" and the strange birds of their planet, I have a feeling they prefer fighting using their wings which they spout on about.

You're constraining these future spaceships to current day fighters, which they are nothing like. Air combat tactics are based around the limitations of the technology, not the other way around. In Macross they are already stretching big time to have Valkyries resemble real world 4th and 5th generation fighters (to the detriment of their usefulness in space, if we're considering physics), but that doesn't mean the same rules apply. Remember, energy fighting is based around fixed wing airplanes and their limitations. Valkyries are not fixed wing airplanes, or rather, they aren't full time. They have options, and each mode has its own set of rules.

A deep stall in an F-16 is something that could never happen with a Valkyrie for two reasons. One, it can transform and recover easily in a different mode. Two, it has vernier thrusters that are powerful enough to orient the fighter even in at atmosphere. This has been shown over and over, even back in Macross Plus when the YF-19 was shown using verniers to tighten its turns in fighter. By this point (2067) the verniers are so dang powerful they can move the battroid around very quickly. I'll link the GIF I made for another thread of the VF-27 doing that.

Also, you can't stall a Valkyrie engine. It's a spaceship.. it doesn't need air to operate. They can even work under water. Stalling a modern day turbine is easy as depriving it of air for a moment... like flying through jetwash or ingesting gun gasses. That's 'cause it needs a constant supply of oxygen rich air to keep going. A Valkyrie doesn't. They don't use turbofan engines.

This may seem like I'm being a bit pedantic (and I probably am) but it's to illustrate my point, which is: you can't apply rules of current day technology to these extremely advanced space vehicles.

You can't apply the same tactics, either, because as I said before, air to air tactics are based around the limitations of modern fixed wing jets. Phrases like "speed is life" may be true for modern planes, but that's because stopping is literally going to kill the airplane. From the point they leave the ground any stoppage of movement is likely going to result in the destruction of the craft, and the only way to recover them in one piece is with a massively long strip of exceptionally flat and clean ground. Those are the staggering limitations the tactics and strategies must be designed around. That's why they had to develop aircraft carriers and their crazy way of doing things, which even today is regarded as being borderline insanity.

And beside all of this, it's not like all air-to-air combat is fixed wing. What about helicopter air to air combat? Those tactics are massively different from fixed wing because helicopters play by a different set of rules.

Oh, right. The promised GIF. Keep in mind it's slowed down to about 60% because I think it looks better that way. Check out those verniers. As you can see, a Valkyrie can do a lot more than just hover in place and wait to get shot.

Now, is the VF-27 more powerful than a VF-31? Maybe... it has a heck of a lot more engines. But, that was mostly vernier thrusters, which are separate from the main engines (typically).

Yes the T/W are way up there but still going from 0 to 700 would take a a minute. Remember the opponent is flying a VF also so the opposing pilot is still at full speed maneuvering for his next shot.. The speeds may increase but the tactics still pretty much stay the same. What I basically said was that energy is key as Chronocidal stated. I don't believe either that Battroid would be commonly used in atmosphere so much either because of that.

That's the thing - the tactics don't stay the same because these aren't full time fixed wing airplanes. Valkyries have been shown to have incredible acceleration potential as well. The YF-21, unlimited, was able to burn itself up from atmospheric friction while climbing into low Earth orbit. The YF-19 was able to easily get to space (or close enough) in less than a minute from ground level on Eden, an Earth-like planet, and then thanks to its toughness plunged right back into the atmosphere without a care in the world.

Like I said before in another thread, there is no such thing as a low energy state for a modern Valkyrie. They can accelerate from 0 to Mach in no time. Remember the Ghosts taking off in episode 3 of Macross Zero? From a standstill on the catapult to ascending through Mach one in the span of about five seconds (I can make a GIF of that if you want). And that was Zero. Those are unmanned Ghosts, sure, but the YF-24 was the first Valkyrie that was able to chase down a Ghost and kill it thanks to ISC (another game changer), and the fighters in Delta are arguably a generation after that (or at least on par).

Are they limited by atmospheric friction? Absolutely. But's more of a maximum velocity thing, rather than an acceleration to maximum velocity, which is a different metric. The speed limit might be 70 on the highway, but a Corvette is going to get there a heck of a lot faster than my truck, which gives him options I don't have.

Valkyries may resemble modern fighters, but that's in much the same way a Barrett rifle resembles a musket. Technology increases ability, and thus changes tactics.

Thanks to Hayate's sick dance moves, we are shown that battroids can spin in place very quickly. Like I said before - a battroid can out turn a fighter. It's optimum corner velocity is 0.

PS: Put me in check if I come off as rude. I've been told my way of writing (and speaking) can come off that way sometimes. In truth I find this discussion delightful.

Edited by Product9
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I noticed that also. They went from using battroid in air to air on a consistent basis to rarely using it. Like they suddenly discovered physics. On Mac plus that was a constant, once the advantage by surprise was gone (it would only last a few seconds which is all you would actually need in combat against an inexperienced foe) they switched back to disengage while using the arm shield to protect themselves.

That actually occurred to me about Shin and Nora first meeting in Zero. If it weren't for slow motion coming into play there, Shin may have been out of range of Nora by the time she actually opened fire.

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That's a little like trying to strafe an AA gun. The fighter is a lot faster, sure, but keep in mind the relative airspeed. If the fighter is going fast, and the target is stationary, then you can think of the target heading at the stationary fighter at the same relative rate of closure. So, it's a moot point because speed is a relative factor here, so any advantage gained by shooting from a fast moving platform is negating by the fact that the fighter is headed toward the incoming bullets at that very same airspeed. Cancels out.

PS: Put me in check if I come off as rude. I've been told my way of writing (and speaking) can come off that way sometimes. In truth I find this discussion delightful.

What I'm saying is that relative velocity doesn't matter in terms of closure rate. It matters because a moving platform can launch missiles a lot farther. If you launched a mach 2 missile from a plane also going mach 2, you might be launching a missile at mach 4. While the math isn't that simple in reality, let's say that also extends the missile's range to double. The fighter will be able to fire off salvos of missiles at the battroid with impunity, and the battroid won't be able to touch him, because his missiles can't fly that far starting from zero velocity.

Even if they're using cannon rounds, the same rough physics will be in play, though if standard gatling gun physics apply, your round grouping is going to be terrible at those sorts of ranges. :lol: With guns, as long as you account for ballistic trajectory, there's still a chance they could hit. Micro missiles in the Macross universe though seem very dependent on thrust vectoring, so once they run out of fuel, they might just drop out of the sky.

No worries about the debate, glad you're enjoying the discussion. It's a fun diversion from real life problems. :lol:

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What I'm saying is that relative velocity doesn't matter in terms of closure rate. It matters because a moving platform can launch missiles a lot farther. If you launched a mach 2 missile from a plane also going mach 2, you might be launching a missile at mach 4. While the math isn't that simple in reality, let's say that also extends the missile's range to double. The fighter will be able to fire off salvos of missiles at the battroid with impunity, and the battroid won't be able to touch him, because his missiles can't fly that far starting from zero velocity.

Even if they're using cannon rounds, the same rough physics will be in play, though if standard gatling gun physics apply, your round grouping is going to be terrible at those sorts of ranges. :lol: With guns, as long as you account for ballistic trajectory, there's still a chance they could hit. Micro missiles in the Macross universe though seem very dependent on thrust vectoring, so once they run out of fuel, they might just drop out of the sky.

I fully agree that missiles benefit from being launched from a faster moving platform. That's why we see so many standoff weapons in the arsenals of real world forces - they are supremely useful.

But, engaging a flying battroid isn't like engaging a bunker... the battroid can still move, and can intercept the missiles with its own guns and missiles (maybe negating both fighters arsenal of missiles, if they all destroy each other). I think two equally skilled pilots flying identical machines, one in fighter and one in battroid, would end up in a, well, a standoff. This is of course still assuming 1v1 in an open sky.

The relative closure thing is mostly for guns, because since a fighter has to point its nose as what it wants to strafe, and in doing so it's moving toward the target that in this case is shooting back at him, the closure rate would come into play. But, if the fighter were going to loft its bullets at max range then, sure, it could maybe hit the battroid at outside of the battroid's engagement range. However, with the lost energy from range and air resistance, the armor might be enough to protect it. But, in that scenario, why would the battroid stick around waiting to get shot? By then he would be in fighter and screaming off toward his next deculture.

I remember when I was a teen and playing a lot of pseudo-realistic PC flight sims, I learned pretty early on why it's a bad idea to strafe an active ZSU-23-4. I know that knowledge and experience doesn't translate well into the real world, but for this discussion I think it's relevant.

Also, I wanted to point out the missiles in Macross are designed for Valkyrie combat, and are probably optimized to work pretty well in all modes, and in both atmosphere and sky. Though I think there are some dedicated long range intercept missiles too, like the ones we saw in Macross Plus.

No worries about the debate, glad you're enjoying the discussion. It's a fun diversion from real life problems. :lol:

What do you mean diversion :ph34r:

Seriously, though, yeah. It really is.

I'd like to see how Hayate would do piloting a Zentradi battle suit. It seems like a better match to his frequent use of battroid mode in air combat than a Valk.

If Frontier episode 12 is any indication, Queadluun-Rheas at least don't dance as well :p

Edited by Product9
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Just a little info on missiles, the speed of the current AIM-9 off the rail at launch is mach 5. I have been curious to the speed that these micro missiles launch at, I know they can't be that fast since these pilots in Macross seem to be able to fratricide these missiles swarms. As for cannon fire it is a rule of thumb when in combat you do not fly in a straight line especially as you over shoot or pass your target. The pilot will start to maneuver to throw off the aim of his opponent and will be performing BFM to keep his opponent from getting a clean shot. .

I believe though in Macross the Qrau is the most effective mecha for this type of fight. It is designed for the zero cornering 3D regime. It has a massive engine and can spin and twist on a dime. It is optimized for this combat realm. Like always everything boils down to the skill and experience of the pilot. I am betting those Qrau pilots in episode 1 weren't the best in the Zent fleet. I was rather disappointed that they really didn't do more with them in that episode. (this has nothing to do with the fact this is my favorite mecha in the series). Episode 4 of MF showed how well it can dance though in the hands of good pilot. ;)

I don't know why suddenly they restricted the battroid mode to hover only but I suspect it may have been to back up the lack of multimode combat sequences or legitimize gerwalk more, only SK knows for sure. All the prior Macross series showed air to air in a literal 3D tactics regime. Now they decided to limit it again.

Edited by grigolosi
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My few thoughts on this episodes :

- Did Keith get suspicious about Roid when he asked "Does Lord Heinz know about this ?"

- At least from my understanding of the visualization (when the AK also affected by Heinz's song), the song accelerate the aging of Windermerean.

- In the middle part, there's relation built between Haya & Cassim along with "I will still kill you in the air". But when they get on the fighters, it's Haya vs Keith again.

- Sadly, Arad & Chuck is still window-dressing and Mirage is the mannequin

- Favorite part ? Mikumo/JUNNA solo singing.

- Delta02 crashed again :o

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I think Keith is getting suspicious of Roid, condiment boy did start to sing when Roid told him too but as far as him knowing what Roid is truly up too is another question entirely. Like Seto said earlier Roid and friends are going down that idiotic "lets see why the PC sealed this....it can't be that bad" routine and the only one to question it is Cassim. For a guy who claims to do lots of research he sure hasn't learned one thing from it. I guess this is what happens when you start believing your own BS propaganda.

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Just a little info on missiles, the speed of the current AIM-9 off the rail at launch is mach 5.

Hachi machi that's fast. Is there any sort of visible shock wave in certain conditions to look for in videos?

I don't think the micro missiles in Macross are all that fast, honestly. The YF-29 was able to keep pace with them in that scene in Sayonara no Tsubasa without (visibly) breaking the sound barrier. Usually when Valkyries go supersonic in Macross they make a big show with the shock wave and whatnot, and there was none there.

I really like the Queadluun-Rhea from Frontier (and the QRau as well, but I don't like the older design as much personally). It's a pretty cool machine that takes a different approach to flight than the Valkyries. Still, supposedly the VF-25 is superior, but I'm pretty sure it can't outperform it in an atmosphere in battroid mode alone. I'm sure it's only superior when all modes are taken into account.

As for cannon fire it is a rule of thumb when in combat you do not fly in a straight line especially as you over shoot or pass your target. The pilot will start to maneuver to throw off the aim of his opponent and will be performing BFM to keep his opponent from getting a clean shot.

I don't know why suddenly they restricted the battroid mode to hover only but I suspect it may have been to back up the lack of multimode combat sequences or legitimize gerwalk more, only SK knows for sure. All the prior Macross series showed air to air in a literal 3D tactics regime. Now they decided to limit it again.

Oh, yeah, of course. Jinking is life when something is filling the air with lead in your general direction (speaking from video game experience again). I was mostly referring to facing down a Gun Dish with guns being a generally bad idea, because it takes time to aim and fire and in that span it's also going to aim and shoot back. Also, you gotta slow down to make an effective gun run. It turns into a high explosive incendiary game of chicken, where even if you pull away, you're still probably gonna get hit. Best to use the standoff weapons if you can, and stay out of range altogether. But I digress (again).

Battroid (and GERWALK too) does have the advantage of not having to fly in the same direction that it's shooting, so there is that. Fighters can only manage that with crazy high alpha wizardry, or in the case of some Valkyries (like the -31) popping out the arms with the guns on them like Chuck did that one time (though that was in space).

As for the battroid ostensibly being nerfed, if the reason is only to legitimize the relatively lackluster fights in Delta, then I would be really disappointed.

Just so we're clear, I have nothing but respect for anybody's real world experience. The only reason I can compete at all in a discussion like this is because we're discussing something that isn't real, but is an extrapolation of modern technology that I've studied as an enthusiast for a long time. I wouldn't even weigh in on a discussion on F-16.net, for example. I've seen what happens to amateurs there :blink: .

Edited by Product9
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LOL no problems with me. I enjoy good civil discussions like this. I know what you are talking about on F-16.net. I have a login for that site but I usually use it for information or pics and I work on the damned things. I know from experience there is always someone who knows more than you do or has a little more knowledge. If you comment on there and are even remotely wrong or perceived as wrong you better be ready for a fight and those arguments can get really really ugly on there. But Anyhoo......

As far as I have seen of actual launch footage that isn't slowed down for the engineers, it is eyeblinking quick off the rail. All I have seen shows a literal puff of smoke/dust and the missile is gone. That is why that whole family and type of IR missiles are so dangerous. All of them from the Sidewinder to the Python series are insanely quick off the rail and damn near impossible to deter once they are launched.

Pulling high alpha stunts plays havoc with the internal systems too. It tends to drive the LEF systems so hard that they use more lubricating oil than normal. We always had to check the PDU oil levels on the F-16's when they came back form high alpha missions at Edwards. I know when the Russians started showing off that cobra maneuver in the MIG's and SU's most fighter pilots actually questioned its practicality in combat. Most are inclined to believe it is too risky to try for the same reasons we have discussed, especially the issue with being rear ended by the chasing aircraft.

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Honestly that concept sounds far better than this one. Macross needs to take a break from some of its tropes.

Not necessarily. The problem with Delta is subpar writing and directing. It's not the 3 Macross pillars that are the problem.

For example, Macross Plus was also not meant to be a Macross story. Kawamori had other ideas for it originally and only made it into a Macross story in order to get the necessary funding. But we can all agree that it turned out pretty well.

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LOL no problems with me. I enjoy good civil discussions like this. I know what you are talking about on F-16.net. I have a login for that site but I usually use it for information or pics and I work on the damned things. I know from experience there is always someone who knows more than you do or has a little more knowledge. If you comment on there and are even remotely wrong or perceived as wrong you better be ready for a fight and those arguments can get really really ugly on there. But Anyhoo......

As far as I have seen of actual launch footage that isn't slowed down for the engineers, it is eyeblinking quick off the rail. All I have seen shows a literal puff of smoke/dust and the missile is gone. That is why that whole family and type of IR missiles are so dangerous. All of them from the Sidewinder to the Python series are insanely quick off the rail and damn near impossible to deter once they are launched.

Pulling high alpha stunts plays havoc with the internal systems too. It tends to drive the LEF systems so hard that they use more lubricating oil than normal. We always had to check the PDU oil levels on the F-16's when they came back form high alpha missions at Edwards. I know when the Russians started showing off that cobra maneuver in the MIG's and SU's most fighter pilots actually questioned its practicality in combat. Most are inclined to believe it is too risky to try for the same reasons we have discussed, especially the issue with being rear ended by the chasing aircraft.

I'm always interested in this kind of really detailed and nuanced insider information. Also, I'm very glad for Acronym Finder right now :p

Not necessarily. The problem with Delta is subpar writing and directing. It's not the 3 Macross pillars that are the problem.

For example, Macross Plus was also not meant to be a Macross story. Kawamori had other ideas for it originally and only made it into a Macross story in order to get the necessary funding. But we can all agree that it turned out pretty well.

I'm of the opinion that Plus turned out so well because it wasn't originally a Macross story. Sometimes, writing from within the confines of a set universe can color the end product, so coming at it from the other direction can have interesting effects. Looking at it as a story first, rather than looking at how it'll fit into the universe, marketing, production, etc.

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The one thing we're also not considering is pilot reaction. While it's pure conjecture, how would the normal human pilot get better at reaction speed? Cybernetics? Brain wave control?

I'm assuming, but tailored Zentradi pilots could have had gene manipulated to give them improved reaction. Winderemers are probably the same. Of course you'd have complete freaks like Max but they're super rare. Honestly, that would probably explain why the average NUNS pilot gets red shirted all the time. They just have normal human class reaction speed so the crazy high speed maneuvers they're seeing from Windermere's are just overwhelming.

Actually that makes me even more interested in what happened in the conflict between the Winderemers and the Lost Zentradi fleet.

Also, on thing to note in Messer's and Keith's duels neither could stay on the tail of the other for that long. Considering the speed at which they're fighting, a battleroid switch might work once for maneuvering but then follow up attack would be easily avoided. Think about it. We've had so many scenes where pilots on either side have reacted to a gerwalk transformation and we've seen transforming takes about 1 second at most.

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Delta has too much stuff going on to be good. It lacks a solid focus. Is it a coming of age series about a love triangle? A series about a band? A series about rival knights of the skies? You can say it is all of them but it is impossible to do all of them justice in a twenty or so minute long episodes. TV shows traditional have a main A story and minor B story in each episode. In a single of episode of Delta they try to include several A stories in the same amount of time. Result is all of them look like the B story. Delta needed to focus on less characters or expanded each episode's running time.

I think there's a really good story here. It's the backstory from the past they hint about and slowly reveal. The story behind the cause of the current conflict sounds more interesting than the kitchen sink they gave us.

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...In Macross they are already stretching big time to have Valkyries resemble real world 4th and 5th generation fighters (to the detriment of their usefulness in space, if we're considering physics), but that doesn't mean the same rules apply....

Sorry for going off topic, but this is something that has been on my mind for a while:

I would love to see some less atmospheric, more space only real mech designs from SK.

Perhaps that's why I love the Orguss so much. (I know it isn't SK's design.) It looks alien, futuristic, does gerwalk, and still has a battroid. Though my ideal design might would not include a gundam-esque robot with a head. A gerwalk mode with lots gun power seems enough for me.

The fact that so many fighters in history of Macross have been pure airframes seems like a stretch to me. I actually really appreciated that about Babylon 5, that they came up with a completely believable non-atmo fighter design in the Starfury.

Anyways, I digress...

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Delta has too much stuff going on to be good. It lacks a solid focus. Is it a coming of age series about a love triangle? A series about a band? A series about rival knights of the skies? You can say it is all of them but it is impossible to do all of them justice in a twenty or so minute long episodes. TV shows traditional have a main A story and minor B story in each episode. In a single of episode of Delta they try to include several A stories in the same amount of time. Result is all of them look like the B story. Delta needed to focus on less characters or expanded each episode's running time.

I think there's a really good story here. It's the backstory from the past they hint about and slowly reveal. The story behind the cause of the current conflict sounds more interesting than the kitchen sink they gave us.

I agree, there is a lack of focus; because let's face it;

Freyja/Hayate is interesting

Walkure as a band is interesting

The history of Windermere war is interesting

The mystery of Mikumo is interesting

But they should've focused on just one thing, I for one would vote Delta to be a story about Bogue, the unsung hero of the AK; the much maligned and unappreciated member of a so called elite organization. Speaking of elite organization, I'd like to see the evil twins get command of a squadron of Drakkens all painted red, and they should be called the "Guardsman".

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You know, you all are writing essays about practicality and whatnot, and all I think is

I don't care if battroid is unsuitable or whatever. Transforming fighting robots are cool to watch.

:p

I agree, there is a lack of focus; because let's face it;

Freyja/Hayate is interesting

Walkure as a band is interesting

The history of Windermere war is interesting

The mystery of Mikumo is interesting

But they should've focused on just one thing, I for one would vote Delta to be a story about Bogue, the unsung hero of the AK; the much maligned and unappreciated member of a so called elite organization. Speaking of elite organization, I'd like to see the evil twins get command of a squadron of Drakkens all painted red, and they should be called the "Guardsman".

I'd add:

The Kaname/Arad/Messer triangle is interesting.

The history of Windermere-Human meeting is interesting.

Heck, the history of Ragnan-Human meeting is interesting.

Mirage's black sheep story is interesting.

Why is there a sense of Bogue as being impressive and/or an "unsung hero," as you call it? There's been similar sentiments made by others as well, and I haven't paid enough attention to the Aerial Knights to say the same.

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If Macross Delta had the same amount of episodes as a Gundam series I could see it working out beautifully. They could make battle scenarios stretch out two episodes, Multi-episode arcs dedicated to one thing while still pushing the main story forward. Instead they have to cram in so much in practically half the time. Practically every(hopefully with the exception of this current one) battle starts and ends in one episode usually during the last 5-10 minutes thats just not enough time to showcase every character taking part in the battle instead we are lead to believe Hayate is a one man army taking on Bouge an Keith while everyone watches commenting on how pretty the sky is that day.

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You know, you all are writing essays about practicality and whatnot, and all I think is

:p

I'd add:

The Kaname/Arad/Messer triangle is interesting.

The history of Windermere-Human meeting is interesting.

Heck, the history of Ragnan-Human meeting is interesting.

Mirage's black sheep story is interesting.

Why is there a sense of Bogue as being impressive and/or an "unsung hero," as you call it? There's been similar sentiments made by others as well, and I haven't paid enough attention to the Aerial Knights to say the same.

Because Bogue gets picked on for being overly emotional and his stock die Walkure shot. So people have pointed out that it's actually a good tactic since if he succeeded in killing the girls Windemer gets auto wins from there in out, and that grew to him being the unsung hero of the aerial knights because people have a dance of humor. Now I must hide be for I'm hunted down for spilling top secrets. Edited by Ghostbear0
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Not necessarily. The problem with Delta is subpar writing and directing. It's not the 3 Macross pillars that are the problem.

For example, Macross Plus was also not meant to be a Macross story. Kawamori had other ideas for it originally and only made it into a Macross story in order to get the necessary funding. But we can all agree that it turned out pretty well.

I tend to think every Macross series since the original feels like ideas from something else being tailored into Macross.

Delta has too much stuff going on to be good. It lacks a solid focus. Is it a coming of age series about a love triangle? A series about a band? A series about rival knights of the skies? You can say it is all of them but it is impossible to do all of them justice in a twenty or so minute long episodes. TV shows traditional have a main A story and minor B story in each episode. In a single of episode of Delta they try to include several A stories in the same amount of time. Result is all of them look like the B story. Delta needed to focus on less characters or expanded each episode's running time.

I think there's a really good story here. It's the backstory from the past they hint about and slowly reveal. The story behind the cause of the current conflict sounds more interesting than the kitchen sink they gave us.

If you rewatch the first episode and make a comparison to where thing have gotten now you'll see a drastic change in overall direction. Not to mention several interesting elements are dropped overtime.

The very cool/fun idea of dancing battroid action scenes are all gone in favor of generic dog fights since episode 6. I would totally get a kick outta seeing Hayate confuse the crap outta all the windermere pilots and beating his opponents with break dancing moves. BUT NOPE. No more of that.

Chuck being shown as a cocky pilot in calling himself "Chuck-sama to the rescue" the first episode with his "submarine attack" is also nonexistent ever since.

The seemingly powerful Aerial Knights are also swept to the wayside without any further development in character or special fighting skills for most of them.

It makes we wonder if Shoji took off from Delta half way through and became more devoted to his "next project" already.

I'm always interested in this kind of really detailed and nuanced insider information. Also, I'm very glad for Acronym Finder right now :p

I'm of the opinion that Plus turned out so well because it wasn't originally a Macross story. Sometimes, writing from within the confines of a set universe can color the end product, so coming at it from the other direction can have interesting effects. Looking at it as a story first, rather than looking at how it'll fit into the universe, marketing, production, etc.

I find myself rewatching Plus because of it's great action sequences and Sharon apple concerts but tend to skip over all the "plot stuff". Plus was not all that great in it's writing as well. It had good characters but none of them had a real arc in terms of change or development.

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I hate to say it but this in my opinion would be what it would be like to watch a war with no ambition from either side. Its like one of those school dances you see on TV where everyone is standing against a wall waiting for someone to start dancing first. Once someone decides to make a move there is no direction, no motivation other than from Bogue to kill Walkure while everyone else is doing whatever comes to mind like flying around and taking a pop shot or two at each other and seeing how loud they can scream at each other (Keith and Hayate) with a band singing background music. The show has almost lost any forward momentum it had due to too many storylines going on at once and no focus as mentioned earlier.......

Sorry 19 I forgot to spell out the acronymn's, I usually do that. ;)

Edited by grigolosi
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Sorry for going off topic, but this is something that has been on my mind for a while:

I would love to see some less atmospheric, more space only real mech designs from SK.

Perhaps that's why I love the Orguss so much. (I know it isn't SK's design.) It looks alien, futuristic, does gerwalk, and still has a battroid. Though my ideal design might would not include a gundam-esque robot with a head. A gerwalk mode with lots gun power seems enough for me.

The fact that so many fighters in history of Macross have been pure airframes seems like a stretch to me. I actually really appreciated that about Babylon 5, that they came up with a completely believable non-atmo fighter design in the Starfury.

Anyways, I digress...

Macross 2 followed that design regiment.

They had dedicated space fighters (VF-2SS), Atmo Fighters (VF-2JA) and even dedicated Gerwalk fighters (I cannot recall the designator).

The principle continuity moved away from Destroids (prolly because they weren't the cool mecha) and treated the Valks like all regiment weapons platforms (to it's detriment IMHO). It was only in M0 and MF were a few types of Destroid was re-introduced into the continuity.

That being said, the trend since Zero is that SK is limiting the tactical uses for battroid and GERWALK combat in atmospheric engagements (as I feel he should). These limits are logical. In space all bets are off and the Valks can utilize all their transformation capabilities without any noticable disadvantage.

As for Babylon 5, yes the Starfury was a great space fighter but they also introduced the Thunderbolt which was a tran-atmospheric fighter that was set to replace the Starfury.

Edited by Zinjo
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