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Mission 13: Diving Passion  

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It was the smart choice in terms of trying to hit the Windies, for sure. Everyone seems to think the Windermere forces were not steamrolling the entire cluster with mindcontrol at a rate far beyond what Xaos was capable of dealing with. The whole point is that this was a last-hope desperation kind of plan where the other options were "Run away and nuke our planet into the total unknown" or "Wait for them to be even more powerful and fight them here"

It'd be hard to characterize the counterattack on Al Shahal as anything other than a suicidal waste of resources.

You left a few seriously significant points out of your list of pros and cons that turn the entire situation on its ear.

Lets divide pros/cons into what we know before the episode and after so we're not so clouded by hindsight.

Before:

Can't sing more than once in about 24hours - They just used it, this is the best time possible according to the previous encounters. Waiting at Ragna means a sure-lose situation against the fully buffed Windies.

Can't hit the home planet - Windies brought all their guns to the fight at an accessible location presenting an opportunity they've never seen.

Bombing the ruins is a complete unknown - Yes, they seem to be the primary Windie target. There's no reason to believe destroying them wins the war (The windies are already winning even without these ruins) it goes all the way down the the core and has unknown ramifications. Protoculture ruins are russian roulette of space-evil. It's clearly a final option once you've exhausted the others, not a preventative measure.

Given these things it makes a ton of sense to postpone bombing the ruins. You have no idea what'll happen if you do and you have a chance at winning the war if you strike. The bomb just prevents them from reaching one catastrophic goal - Windermere has been winning the war hanidly, with or without Ragna's ruins. Plus, if the battle at Al Shahal goes bad you can still blow the bomb up.

To clarify:

  • Assumption: Heinz can't sing the Song of the Wind more than once in 24 hours.

    They made this assumption entirely on the premise that Windermere's fleet didn't immediately attack another planet after defeating the one they were currently attacking. This was such an obviously faulty assumption that it's flat amazing nobody called them on it. For all they knew, Windermere's downtime between attacks was because Gramia fancied a nap after a good curb-stomping or they'd paused to have a light lunch and prep the New UN Spacy forces they'd mind-controlled to defend their newly conquered territory under Windermerean leadership. They don't even know Windermere only has one Wind Singer. For all they knew, Windermere had an entire boy band of Wind Singers. (Possibly a plausible sounding bet, considering the Aerial Knights already look like a boy band or shampoo commercial gone horribly wrong... or horribly right, if you're a female fan.)

  • Assumption: Macross Elysion and Walkure would be able to successfully oppose the enemy at Al Shahal.

    Kaos seems to have an incredibly exaggerated opinion of its own capabilities and/or a terrible inability to recognize a pattern. They pulled their flagship off Ragna's defense lines and sent it, alone, to fight an enemy fleet that vastly outnumbered and outgunned it even without the assistance of dozens of New UN Spacy warships with mind-controlled crews. What were they expecting to accomplish with one warship, barely twenty fighters, and Walkure? Walkure can, at best, draw with the Wind Singer and take each other out of action. That still leaves the Macross Elysion looking down the gun barrels of two fleets worth of warships at least as heavily armed as it is, and protected only by four platoons of variable fighters who have so far failed to do more than "escape with their lives" against the Aerial Knights. Their best ace had recently ended up as a smear of tomato sauce attempting to take an Aerial Knights ace one-on-one, and the other members of Delta Platoon thus far have had zero luck even when they gang up. The ONLY possible outcome of that counterattack would have been the loss of Macross Elysion, Walkure, and twenty-plus VF-31s.

  • Assumption: The ruins would pose no threat to Ragna and the Brisingr cluster if the liberation of Al Shahal succeeded.

    This assumption on Kaos's part is based on a terribly poor grasp of tactics. Unless the Sigur Valens is destroyed, as long as the ruins are intact Windermere can always come back and conquer any planet with ruins in a matter of minutes. By leaving the ruins intact until Windermere attacked, Kaos and Lady M left a massive, obvious weak point in the planet's defenses that could turn the entire defense fleet into enemy forces in a matter of minutes. Likewise, by leaving the ruins intact they opened themselves to the possibility that Windermere could conquer the planet before Major Valan's troops could detonate the bomb and thus complete his mind-control system covering the entire cluster. Likewise, had Major Valan's forces been allowed to blow the ruins up beforehand, they could have had much longer to analyze the portion of the ruins that was hiding in super dimension space (or it may never have emerged if the Sigur Valens wasn't there) and either destroy, sabotage, or abscond with the key part of King Gramia's weapon. Leaving the ruins intact was far and away the LEAST viable option, especially since it robbed the evacuation effort of its urgency and left Ragna with the burden of evacuating under enemy fire when things inevitably went pear-shaped.

  • Assumption: The New UN Spacy and Kaos would not have been able to mount a successful defense of Ragna together.

    Why they'd assume this, I don't know. With Walkure able to keep the New UN Spacy forces on task, they would have at least outnumbered the Windermerean forces and had a much better chance than Macross Elysion would've had trying to ambush the Windermerean fleet on its own. Particularly if Walkure could wear Heinz down or song-of-war him out of the fight the way they've done twice now when not under enemy fire. Without Heinz in the fight, the Sigur Valens is vulnerable. Without the Wind Singer helping them, the NUNS and Kaos are able to at least hold their own against Windermere.

  • Assumption: Windermere would not be able to detect the bomb or do anything to prevent its detonation.

    They can't have been completely in the dark about Windermerean abilities... they were a member state of the (New) UN Government for 33 years before their war of independence. There is no way they've never noticed runes allow Windermereans to detect emotion and fold wave activity, given that it's an essential part of Windermere's culture. There was also the outside chance they'd all get Var'd before they could push the button.

Basically, the attack on Al Shahal superficially seems like a smart idea... but if you examine the greater tactical picture it becomes pretty evident that it was a hasty, terribly shortsighted move that would have been suicide for all concerned if Gramia had anything on his mind other than setting a non-lethal trap for his old teacher. None of the possible outcomes are particularly rosy, but Captain Johnson and Lady M practically handed Ragna and the entire Brisingr Cluster to Windermere on a silver platter by being Lawful Stupid. They only got out of it alive because Gramia apparently believed in chump charity.

You can practically hear the unspoken "I told you so" in Major Valan's voice when he notes that their attack on Al Shahal failed...

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On that last point, the PC ruins water tables must be interacting with other foods all over the Galaxy to produce var outbreaks outside the cluster.

Is the Var outbreak all over the galaxy? I can't remember if it was contained to the cluster. If it is all over the galaxy, then NUNS reaction given what they've discovered is remarkably bland, the appropriate reaction might be fold bombing Windermeres, because hey, it's a frigging biological WMD.

If I had to guess at the Windermereans at this point, they are being taken advantage of, the primary collaborator on the Windermere side is likely Roid. So, basically, we have a Frontier redux where the Windermere military is being played for suckers, with Roid egging them along for whatever reason... given his rather unhealthy interest in the Walkure, I'd say he might be a secret Mikumo groupie.

Speaking of Mikumo and the often reused Bogue shots (they'll reuse until they run out of background), I would venture to say that Bogue is also secretly a Mikumo groupie, but his desire to kill the Walkure is probably based on his history, didn't they say his siblings were all girls, he probably got dressed up and beat up on as a kid by his sisters, who may have also dyed his hair into the unnatural color that it is. So he is transferring his anger at his siblings onto the Walkure, but it is also likely that he is a secret Mikumo groupie just like Roid, note how he is terrified of Mikumo's image during episode 8 while simultaneously lashing out. (who knew pretend psycho-analyzing Bogue would be so much fun)

Garmia does precog on the bomb, you can see his crusty old rune light up right before he orders maximum shields to the bottom, same thing when he feels Ernie coming in episode 12.

It'd be hard to characterize the counterattack on Al Shahal as anything other than a suicidal waste of resources.

You could fault Ernie for is him not bringing the rest of the fleet. If he didn't know the Windermere were precogs, then his move made good sense, hit them first before they attack. Take the initiative. That said, Ernie is horribly late in doing this since he has had the whole series up till now to attack, and he just sat around. It might be that KAOS mandate is limited, and they have to get authorization from the local government, but if Ernie started off as being the commanding officer of the KAOS and the NUNS forces in the cluster, then he needs to be fired.

My guess though is that he is only a local commander, and defaulted upwards after all the other planets got conquered, and he was the senior man in charge. Either way, it seems that this is a potential weakness in the command structure of NUNS.

Edited by kalvasflam
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Garmia does precog on the bomb, you can see his crusty old rune light up right before he orders maximum shields to the bottom, same thing when he feels Ernie coming in episode 12.

I don't think it's precognition. I think corrupt people in NUNS are feeding him intel.

The rune flash can mean just about anything at this point.

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When the bomb is about to blow, Gramia acts like everything is going according to plan. It doesn't look like precognition... he isn't surprised like he would be if his spidey sense was suddenly tingling. It was more like "it's time for the bomb to go off, so focus our defenses in that direction."

I doubt it... this is not the first time we've seen what appears to be Gramia's runes warning him of impending enemy action.

Which leads me to the next point: the scar on Windermere. It was clearly caused by a nuke or a dimension weapon, allegedly because the NUNS are bad guys who like to blow up mountains for no reason. This has been the biggest propaganda tool for getting Windermere into the war, but why did it actually happen? Well, when the nuke on Ragna went off it exposed something unexpected - a protoculture thingy that is probably important or something. Could it be the same thing happened on Windermere? Did they blow up something to get something else to appear? Like that ship maybe? Then they blamed NUNS for it to get the invasion plot going. Maybe moving the ship caused some additional problems. Admittedly, it would be pretty hard to hide that from the people on Windermere... and maybe Freja saw something she wasn't supposed to.

The "scar" was caused by a dimension eater weapon... we saw flashbacks of it detonating back in episode 7.

Its propaganda value would appear to be quite limited off Windermere itself, given that Windermere's neighbors and the New UN Government both know that it was the Windermereans themselves who set that dimensional warhead off. That Voldoran politician that Roid meets with in episode 7 flat-out calls him on it, saying that they'll "behave" because Windermere likes to indiscriminately kill enemies and allies using dimensional weaponry.

From what we've been told so far, Windermere's getting outside help... but from anti-government factions rather than the New UN Spacy. I'd say it's more likely by far that Gramia and co. are being manipulated by an anti-government faction through the Epsilon Group.

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I don't think it's precognition. I think corrupt people in NUNS are feeding him intel.

The rune flash can mean just about anything at this point.

Then he has to be getting some real time intel on when Ernie boy folds in; because there is no other way he is timing the jump out of Al Shahal so perfectly.

But let's set aside Garmia for a second, and ask the question if he is getting fed intel, how the hell did Keith knew ahead of time to pull away from the dogfight with Hayate? Did he have his Apple Watch set up to alert him on when the bomb would go off? Cause I don't think Valan set a timer on the thing.

Finally, this does make me wonder whether other Windermeres have the same ability as Garmia/Keith, because you didn't see Roid do the precog thing, nor any of the other Windermere pilots, hell, some of them got greased when the bomb went off.

Anyway, all this talk about Ernie has gotten me to wondering where the heck is Bert... Because he might do a better job that Ernie.

angry-bert.jpg?w=100

This is what we need, Angry Bert, BERT HATE... ha ha. It might be the counter to the inevitable Roid rage.

Edited by kalvasflam
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Is the Var outbreak all over the galaxy? I can't remember if it was contained to the cluster. If it is all over the galaxy, then NUNS reaction given what they've discovered is remarkably bland, the appropriate reaction might be fold bombing Windermeres, because hey, it's a frigging biological WMD.

Well there is that group in Macross Extra set in 2062 that is studying Var using kaiju sized mega fauna. The guy in charge has a dead Vajra. I am assuming it isn't in the Brisingr cluster as it is set on a newly settled planet.

Also in the episode prologue the Var'd guy who blew up the bus was on a City or Island class.

Kaname said the Wind Singer may be a galactic threat. According to Macross Frontier where a history teacher said there are 17 known Protoculture settled worlds. That is not including the Vajra homeworld.

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Then he has to be getting some real time intel on when Ernie boy folds in; because there is no other way he is timing the jump out of Al Shahal so perfectly.

But let's set aside Garmia for a second, and ask the question if he is getting fed intel, how the hell did Keith knew ahead of time to pull away from the dogfight with Hayate? Did he have his Apple Watch set up to alert him on when the bomb would go off? Cause I don't think Valan set a timer on the thing.

There isn't any need for real time intel. They established in ep 12 that they were going to wait for Elysion to make its attack before setting off the nuke. They had a plan - a plan that could have easily been communicated to Gramia (probably through that shady Epsilon guy). Why else would Gramia be waiting for Elysion to arrive, then fold to Ragna, enter the atmosphere (something I don't believe they did at Al Shahal), then proceed to wait above the ruins for the bomb to blow, shield themselves from it (protecting a number of their ships in the process - I just rewatched that part), and then dock with the thing that shows up after without hesitation?

Keith didn't know - he felt it when the bomb blew, and showed signs of surprise, unlike Gramia. Everyone was surprised except for Gramia, who has this look on his face like "this is all going according to plan."

As for why Elysion went alone, they established that too. Because they figured they would have a higher resistance to the Var thanks to hanging out with Walkure longer than the rest of the Xaos guys, thus making them a liability. Also, they established that each time Windermere has attacked in the past, they had to retreat for a minimum of 24 hours before mounting another operation. It was more than just a hunch.

And as I stated before, Ernest started evacuating the civvies before weasel man even arrived. In fact, the NUNS made no attempt whatsoever to evacuate the civilians. That was all Ernest's doing.

As for the Windermere propaganda... it only needs to work on Windermere people. To galvanize them against the NUNS. It certainly worked on Keith.

By its vary nature everyone outside of a country (or planet) knows propaganda is all lies. It only needs to work internally.

Edit:

At the post credits scene of episode 13, Roid looks kinda shady. What does he put away after covering up Gramia? Maybe he was taking out his leader-shades, but it looked more like he was concealing something. Also, does he say that it was Gramia's last wish that he take command? That seems like an opportunistic lie.

Edited by Product9
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Um no most Windermereans have a level of precog ability with their Runes but the royal family being from successive generations of Wind Singers has a stronger Space-Time Resonance ability. This is similar to Sara Nome and Mao Nome, after a blood transfusion from the Bird Human, being able to detect hostile intentions. The constant references to Wind by Windermereans is like the Mayan islander people's equivalent of Kadun. The royal family motto "In the name of the King" has the word Mayan.in it.

Terran's Space-Time Resonance ability aka Fold Receptor Factor was nerfed by the Protoculture with only a few bloodlines having access to it. Basara didn't have the precog ability but he was a powerful Fold Receptor enough to be called Anima Spiritia. Anima Spiritia was a group of Protoculture that managed to seal the Protodevlin to stasis.

The Sigur Valen's Sound Wave System may be similar to the Sound Buster Cannon modifications on Battle 7's Macross cannon. The modification were based on data sent by the Rax ruin AI messenger to the Macross 7 fleet before it was destroyed by Gavil.

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The rune is a fold sensor, duh. We're told this outright in the show.

Also, the trigger for a reaction bomb uses some kind of fold shenanigans, probably to keep the matter and anti-matter or whatever they're using apart. This is what the windermereans (Gramia, Roid, Heinz and Keith are all shown with their runes lighting between the scene where the bomb goes off under water, and the fireball erupting) react to.

Why Gramia knew to order maximum power to the ventral shields? Because he's served as a knight prior to the independence war, during the period where the NUNS were using the knights as cannon fodder to fight Zentraedi and whatnot (from the manga summaries), and has more than likely been in the presence of a reaction bomb going off before, so he recognized what he was feeling immediately. And Keith more than likely put two and two together from stories.

As for the major from a-hole, the camera is focused on a cruiser of a different color to all the others while his voice is talking, then switches to him, which, you know, suggests he's on that cruiser. Said cruiser is hovering above the city ship, in full view of the battle in orbit, and he's not lifting a finger, and he's outright telling Arad he doesn't care about the evacuation, all he cares about is blowing up the ruins.

The next shot we have of the city, there's explosions all around the city, but the NUNS ships are no longer there, instead a-hole-man is staring down at them from above, with a diagram showing where the bomb is relative to the city ship (which is pretty damned close), and smirking, since the Sigur Valens is almost on top of the ruins. As soon as it's directly above, he orders the bomb detonated - and off it goes. We have a shot from underwater of the bomb going off, then it cuts to the scene aboard the Sigur Valens where Gramia's rune flashes and then he orders the shields up, and then everyone else's rune flash, and then boom, massive fireball.

Incidentally, there are two frames in that sequence that are completely white - they're a few frames apart, but I think they're supposed to mimic the so-called double-flash of a hydrogen bomb.

Also, contrary to the NUNS guy saying they'd be using a small directed reaction warhead, this thing tosses up a fireball that is several times as big across as the Sigur Valens is long.

Then, as soon as the smoke clears and the ruins (re)appear, the major goes "Huh, so this is what the scientists were talking about," then orders "we got the data, retreat immediately". And then they leave, and are not seen again this episode.

The order for the colony ship doesn't come until a couple of minutes later in the show, when after Heinz starts singing and the Sigur Valens transforms, *Arad* orders the evacuation in light of Var syndrome starting to break out on the colony ship, where casualties would be immense if people started going out of control. Only after that does the ship start to take off.

Also note that there are no cruisers of the same coloring as the major's during the evacuation scene - I count five frigates, but they're all that light color that all the others are, one or two cruisers, an Uraga and a Guantanamo in one shot, and then two Uragas and two Guantanamos in the next shot as they fold out.

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I am seeing that it is easier to Arm Chair Warrior these episodes as a member of the audience. If one puts themselves in the limited position of either side, your perception changes. This is how writers have to write to give an honest portrayal of any character(s).

I don't believe for a second that Johnson intended to take on the Windermere fleet. His intentions seemed more akin to a surgical strike in an attempt to take out the biggest enemy asset. It was a gamble that "appeared" to have gone very wrong, but it has yet to be revealed if this was a poor tactical choice or a baited trap to get him out of position.

Edited by Zinjo
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Is the Var outbreak all over the galaxy? I can't remember if it was contained to the cluster. If it is all over the galaxy, then NUNS reaction given what they've discovered is remarkably bland, the appropriate reaction might be fold bombing Windermeres, because hey, it's a frigging biological WMD.

Yes, the prologue of Ep4 says that Var syndrome is encountered all around the galaxy.

I am seeing that it is easier to Arm Chair Warrior these episodes as a member of the audience. If one puts themselves in the limited position of either side, your perception changes. This is how writers have to write to give an honest portrayal of any character(s).

I don't believe for a second that Johnson intended to take on the Windermere fleet. His intentions seemed more akin to a surgical strike to attempt to take out the biggest enemy asset. It was a gamble that "appeared" to have gone very wrong, but that has yet to be revealed if it was a poor tactical choice or a baited trap to get him out of position.

The problem is, even if you put yourself in the view of the characters with the knowns and unknowns they have to work with (as I did in my previous post) it's pretty obvious that Johnson and Lady M's counterattack plan was a stupid, suicidal, full-blown Leeroy Jenkins move.

As far as surgical strikes... the Sigur Valens has never gone anywhere without its escorting fleet. If you attack that bloody thing, you're going to be under fire from all the ships supporting it.

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If Gramia really has precognition, then why didn't he sense the Elysion coming to block the shot?

Let's see how much conjecture it takes to explain that one away.

Based on what we see in the show (and how it is directed - NUNS guy says "now", Gramia is like "okay, now" - red rune. Then when the bomb is detonated everyone else is like "something is happening but we're not sure what!" blue rune), if we go with the fewest assumptions, it's more likely there is a conspiracy than it is that Gramia can see the future.

Not only that, but NUNS weasel man isn't the least bit disappointed he didn't blow up the Sigur Valens. He just kept his "this is all going according to plan" grin and was like "what they said would happen happened, so now that we're done here we can go home. Byeeeee~"

Really, the more I watch the scene, the more it looks like the NUNS guy and Gramia are in collusion.

The problem is, even if you put yourself in the view of the characters with the knowns and unknowns they have to work with (as I did in my previous post) it's pretty obvious that Johnson and Lady M's counterattack plan was a stupid, suicidal, full-blown Leeroy Jenkins move.

I don't agree. Everything they did was based on the intel they had at the time. Going alone was a calculated move since they were more resistant to Var thanks to hanging out with Walkure (and this is shown to be true in ep 13). The plan to quickly strike at the head of the snake was a good one, but it didn't work because Gramia was literally just sitting there waiting for them to show up. Despite this massive disadvantage, Ernest managed to get a shot off thanks to his quick reaction, which bought the good guys some much needed time.

Ernest is at legend status after this episode.

Also, did anybody else notice the animation error in this episode? Hayate is back in his -31J for a moment.

Edited by Product9
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If Gramia really has precognition, then why didn't he sense the Elysion coming to block the shot?

Well from what we've seen much like the Nome sisters he can sense hostile intentions. What Ernest did was protect Aether and Barrette City.

I think it is more accurate to call it emphatic ability. We've seen low level telepathy before in Macross 7 and Macross Dynamite 7. Mylene with Gubaba and Zolans with Catsnakes.

Ranka had an emphatic-telepathic connection with the Vajra in Frontier.

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If Gramia really has precognition, then why didn't he sense the Elysion coming to block the shot?

Let's see how much conjecture it takes to explain that one away.

Well from what we've seen much like the Nome sisters he can sense hostile intentions. What Ernest did was protect Aether and Barrette City.

I think it is more accurate to call it emphatic ability. We've seen low level telepathy before in Macross 7 and Macross Dynamite 7. Mylene with Gubaba and Zolans with Catsnakes.

Ranka had an emphatic-telepathic connection with the Vajra in Frontier.

And there's the conjecture. Personally, I'd rather just look at what the show is showing us and go with that. In this case, what we've been shown is more than sufficient to explain what's going on... unless I'm totally wrong and there is no conspiracy. In which case it would just be lazy writing.

Also, I think you mean to say "empathetic" not "emphatic". Empathetic essentially means feeling another's feelings. Emphatic is saying something with lots of emphasis, such as:

LOOK AT THE NUNS WEASEL MAN! LOOK HOW HAPPY HE IS! THIS ISN'T A FACE YOU MAKE WHEN THINGS GO WRONG!

8V98CWT.jpg

Like that.

Edited by Product9
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Yes, the prologue of Ep4 says that Var syndrome is encountered all around the galaxy.

Wow, then NUNS is obviously just nothing more than an absentee landlord. They have evidence that Windermere is using biological WMD, and they haven't even sent a full contingent of Macross class to slap down the little wannabes.

Something is obviously up with this whole setup... the correct response would be to send in squadrons of Valks armed with MDE and wipe out the Windermeres. It's what I would call a proportionate response. HA HA.

Also, contrary to the NUNS guy saying they'd be using a small directed reaction warhead, this thing tosses up a fireball that is several times as big across as the Sigur Valens is long.

That is all dependent on scale; the fireball seem to have been directed upwards therefore we can call it a directed warhead, and hey, compared to an MDE that took out a planet, this is a pretty small reaction warhead. It didn't even take a big chunk out of the planet. After all, my firecracker could be your atomic bomb.

Edited by kalvasflam
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If Gramia really has precognition, then why didn't he sense the Elysion coming to block the shot?

Let's see how much conjecture it takes to explain that one away.

Actually, I can explain that one with minimal conjecture.

Thus far, everything we've seen Gramia's rune react to when he displays prescient knowledge has involved fold waves in relatively close proximity to him. He detected Macross Elysion's fold jump to Al Shahal with a defold point practically on top of the Sigur Valens, and we know from Macross Frontier that folding ships produce measurable and detectable disruptions in super dimension space (fold waves) that can be used to track folding ships. A fold jump exchanges the space containing the ship with an equivalent volume of space at the destination, so even though the Macross Elysion was still 30 light years away when he sensed a fold jump, because the defold point was practically in his lap he would be able to detect the fold waves from the fold system's distortion of local space.

Likewise, on Ragna, he detected the activation of a thermonuclear reaction warhead's trigger... the trigger mechanism of a thermonuclear reaction warhead uses a resonance fold effect to excite heavy quantum until it collapses fully into this dimension, crushing the warhead's hydrogen warhead material past the fusion point. More fold waves of a very specific variety as a precursor to detonation. Keith clearly sensed them as well, which is why he bailed before the bomb even properly went off.

We know some Windermereans, particularly the royal family, have a fold receptor factor and can therefore receive, transmit, and interpret certain types of fold waves... and we also know via the White Knight with Black Wings manga that runes can transmit and receive emotions, so that may help.

In all likelihood, Gramia didn't detect the Macross Elysion's dynamic entry because it defolded too far away for him to sense it (and Heinz is the only one with a booster) and made its dive on purely sublight power.

Based on what we see in the show (and how it is directed - NUNS guy says "now", Gramia is like "okay, now" - red rune. Then when the bomb is detonated everyone else is like "something is happening but we're not sure what!" blue rune), if we go with the fewest assumptions, it's more likely there is a conspiracy than it is that Gramia can see the future.

Nah, he can't see the future... but he can sense fold waves. The official glossary on Macross.jp even confirms that fold receptor factors run in the royal family.

Ernest is at legend status after this episode.

Legendary screw-up status, maybe... it's gotta suck to go down in history as the guy who lost an entire star cluster to the galaxy's rowdy children.

(Not as bad as Gramia, who at this point is probably going down in history as Space Napo-Hitler...)

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Actually, I can explain that one with minimal conjecture.

Thus far, everything we've seen Gramia's rune react to when he displays prescient knowledge has involved fold waves in relatively close proximity to him. He detected Macross Elysion's fold jump to Al Shahal with a defold point practically on top of the Sigur Valens, and we know from Macross Frontier that folding ships produce measurable and detectable disruptions in super dimension space (fold waves) that can be used to track folding ships. A fold jump exchanges the space containing the ship with an equivalent volume of space at the destination, so even though the Macross Elysion was still 30 light years away when he sensed a fold jump, because the defold point was practically in his lap he would be able to detect the fold waves from the fold system's distortion of local space.

Likewise, on Ragna, he detected the activation of a thermonuclear reaction warhead's trigger... the trigger mechanism of a thermonuclear reaction warhead uses a resonance fold effect to excite heavy quantum until it collapses fully into this dimension, crushing the warhead's hydrogen warhead material past the fusion point. More fold waves of a very specific variety as a precursor to detonation. Keith clearly sensed them as well, which is why he bailed before the bomb even properly went off.

We know some Windermereans, particularly the royal family, have a fold receptor factor and can therefore receive, transmit, and interpret certain types of fold waves... and we also know via the White Knight with Black Wings manga that runes can transmit and receive emotions, so that may help.

In all likelihood, Gramia didn't detect the Macross Elysion's dynamic entry because it defolded too far away for him to sense it (and Heinz is the only one with a booster) and made its dive on purely sublight power.

That's all based on an assumption though - you assume he sensed Elysion's fold, which wasn't stated in the show. All we know is that he was waiting there ready to go when Ernest and crew showed up. We know from past Macross shows you can't just fold away at a moment's notice - it takes preparation. Now, maybe that Sigur Valens can, but that would be an assumption as well. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum and just focus on what was actually in the episode.

Consider the possibility that Gramia had information sent to him, and that the NUNS were working in his favor with the bomb. If that is indeed the case, then Ernest performed above and beyond, thwarting Gramia three times in the space of the single episode, even when the deck was stacked against him.

Maybe this is an assumption as well, but it makes sense. The timing was just too perfect. And, since I still have this on my clipboard:

8V98CWT.jpg

That face says it all.

Edited by Product9
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Tactically speaking:

  • Staying put with a limited force as your adversary is marshalling his forces is a suicide move.
  • Detonating a nuclear warhead on a PC artifact, when there is a consistent history that such artifacts cannot be treated as conventional items is a suicide move.
  • "Assuming" you will have enough time to effectively research anything that results from the aforementioned detonation before an enemy attack is a suicide move.
  • Taking forces into any battle that may be susceptible to mind control is a suicide move.

I believe you are mistaking a bold calculated tactical attack with a WOW character...

If it would have worked as expected, the SV would have been taken by surprise and at the very least been damaged or if lucky enough, destroyed. Either way it would end the war or at least buying some time to execute the NUNS plan. A plan with all the unexpected risks associated with detonating a warhead against an ancient PC device of unclear purpose and ensuring the safety of the Ragna population in the area.

Many a battle has been won by a bold, audacious action by a commander. It is only after the fact that commander would be deemed brilliant.

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Many a battle has been won by a bold, audacious action by a commander. It is only after the fact that commander would be deemed brilliant.

Yeah, a lot is determined by success.

Elysion blocking the Sigur Valen's shot? Brilliant!

If Elysion was off a bit and smashed into the city ship instead? Well...

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Wow, then NUNS is obviously just nothing more than an absentee landlord. They have evidence that Windermere is using biological WMD, and they haven't even sent a full contingent of Macross class to slap down the little wannabes.

Something is obviously up with this whole setup... the correct response would be to send in squadrons of Valks armed with MDE and wipe out the Windermeres. It's what I would call a proportionate response. HA HA.

Well, remember... Windermere is out in the galactic boonies, and they've already shown that they have dimension weapons and aren't afraid to commit genocide.

Mind you, we've also been told that it takes a fair bit to get the federal New UN Forces to intervene. Odds are they'll take an active interest now that it's clearly beyond what the local schmucks can deal with.

(Also, since the NUNS are supposed to be a pretty peace-loving lot, genocide probably wouldn't be their go-to solution. I doubt they'd look kindly on doing the same thing to Windermere that the Zentradi Army did to Earth.)

That's all based on an assumption though - you assume he sensed Elysion's fold, which wasn't stated in the show. All we know is that he was waiting there ready to go when Ernest and crew showed up. We know from past Macross shows you can't just fold away at a moment's notice - it takes preparation. Now, maybe that Sigur Valens can, but that would be an assumption as well. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum and just focus on what was actually in the episode.

Consider that Gramia had information sent to him, and that the NUNS were working in his favor with the bomb. If that is indeed the case, then Ernest performed above and beyond, thwarting Gramia three times in the space of the single episode.

Maybe this is an assumption as well, but it makes sense. The timing was just too perfect. And, since I still have this on my clipboard:

Unlike your theory that the NUNS is working with Gramia "for teh evulz", mine is based on actual evidence.

We know for a fact that a high fold receptor factor runs in Gramia's family... it's literally stated on the official website.

We know that they can detect fold waves via their runes... because Heinz has been doing it all series long.

We know that these things Gramia mysteriously clued in on despite not being told a damn thing by anyone produce very specific, measurable fold waves... because those facts were established before this series was made.

We know Windermereans have heightened physical abilities including faster response times than humans... because it's stated right in the show.

There is no evidence anywhere in the series that Gramia is receiving any kind of intelligence from the New UN Spacy or anyone else.

Also, your contention that you can't fold at short notice is demonstrably untrue... it'd be a short-ranged fold, but it has been shown to be possible MANY times. (Hell, it was practically Gigile's signature move for half of Macross 7.)

Tactically speaking:

  • Staying put with a limited force as your adversary is marshalling his forces is a suicide move.
  • Detonating a nuclear warhead on a PC artifact, when there is a consistent history that such artifacts cannot be treated as conventional items is a suicide move.
  • "Assuming" you will have enough time to effectively research anything that results from the aforementioned detonation before an enemy attack is a suicide move.
  • Taking forces into any battle that may be susceptible to mind control is a suicide move.

I believe you are mistaking a bold calculated tactical attack with a WOW character...

If it would have worked as expected, the SV would have been taken by surprise and at the very least been damaged or if lucky enough, destroyed. Either way it would end the war or at least buying some time to execute the NUNS plan. A plan with all the unexpected risks associated with detonating a warhead against an ancient PC device of unclear purpose and ensuring the safety of the Ragna population in the area.

Many a battle has been won by a bold, audacious action by a commander. It is only after the fact that commander would be deemed brilliant.

A few points:

  • There's actually a pretty good track record of "kill it with nuclear fire" working just fine on ancient Protoculture doodads... like the Birdman, or the Fold Evil on Uroboros, or the ruins on Lux. Pretty much the only time it didn't work was Operation Stargazer, when Max tried to nuke Gepernich.
  • Staying put when you have well-established defenses, a way to semi-effectively counter the enemy's main strategy, and the advantage of numbers is actually a pretty good tactic. It's called a defensive war, and we've been doing it for millennia.
  • As this and previous episodes demonstrated and Kaname explicitly stated, pretty much anyone who doesn't have a fold receptor factor can be mind-controlled... as that short list is "Walkure + Hayate", by your own definition the attack was a suicidal one.

Many battles have been won by a bold, decisive action by a well-informed commander with a sound grasp of tactics. Captain Johnson's botched preemptive strike at Al Shahal was some bush league Leeroy Jenkins BS... but that's what we'd expect from someone with an interstellar reputation for being bad at his job. He didn't know what his enemy's capabilities were, and he didn't have the force to actually overwhelm them. All he would've achieved if Gramia hadn't trolled him by stranding him well outside the battle zone would have been to die messily.

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Legendary screw-up status, maybe... it's gotta suck to go down in history as the guy who lost an entire star cluster to the galaxy's rowdy children.

(Not as bad as Gramia, who at this point is probably going down in history as Space Napo-Hitler...)

Legendary screw-up *how*, *again*?

He had frakk all resources to work with that would stand up to the song of the wind. Let's say they went with the NUNS plan.

They evac Barette city and (try to) blow up the ruins as soon as the civvies are clear. It fails, and then Gramia shows up in orbit with a full power Sigur Valens with the song booster and fold barrier in working order. At that point, he's invincible, because not even the Macross cannons on Elysion would do anything to the fold barrier.

In the show, the fold barrier goes down due to Freyja's singing, when Heinz is swept up in the resonance event. The macross cannon shot only has to contend with the "normal" barrier around the ship, not the totally impenetrable one that was used to tank the reaction warhead.

Elysion going to Al-Shahal, and getting off that parting shot at the Sigur Valens that busted its song booster for a bit is the only reason they managed to get *any* of the defending forces that stuck around until the end away with their minds intact.

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A few points:

  • There's actually a pretty good track record of "kill it with nuclear fire" working just fine on ancient Protoculture doodads... like the Birdman, or the Fold Evil on Uroboros, or the ruins on Lux. Pretty much the only time it didn't work was Operation Stargazer, when Max tried to nuke Gepernich.
  • Staying put when you have well-established defenses, a way to semi-effectively counter the enemy's main strategy, and the advantage of numbers is actually a pretty good tactic. It's called a defensive war, and we've been doing it for millennia.
  • As this and previous episodes demonstrated and Kaname explicitly stated, pretty much anyone who doesn't have a fold receptor factor can be mind-controlled... as that short list is "Walkure + Hayate", by your own definition the attack was a suicidal one.

Many battles have been won by a bold, decisive action by a well-informed commander with a sound grasp of tactics. Captain Johnson's botched preemptive strike at Al Shahal was some bush league Leeroy Jenkins BS... but that's what we'd expect from someone with an interstellar reputation for being bad at his job. He didn't know what his enemy's capabilities were, and he didn't have the force to actually overwhelm them. All he would've achieved if Gramia hadn't trolled him by stranding him well outside the battle zone would have been to die messily.

Point of order sir, Birdman? I do not recall the Birdman being destroyed by nuclear fire, the contrary is true.

What "well-established defenses" do you speak of? A Macross warship with four squads of VF-31's? A NUNS garrison that lasted maybe 5 minutes under the influence of the Wind Singer, which would have left whatever Chaos forces who were not affected as their only support. There is no evidence of ground weaponry outside of the landed Elysion. So exactly how do you fight a defensive war on a planetary scale with a handful of ships against a superior force? Defensive battles tend to use the environment for cover, exactly where is the "cover" on Ragna that cannot be affected by a planetary bombardment?

If we mix your description of the purpose of Johnson's attack then you would be correct, but I do not believe Johnson was attacking the whole fleet, but its' largest asset. Now in a normal enemy fleet with free thinking commanders it would be a suicide move as they would react even before the senior commanders would give orders. The SV fleet does not have that advantage. Perhaps Johnson counted on this or perhaps not.

I think your counter to my statement about bold commanders is more akin to defence of your position rather than acknowledgement of history.

Though I am confident that with more information expected in Ep 13, much of this fog of war may well lift.

Edited by Zinjo
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Legendary screw-up *how*, *again*?

You mean apart from having gone half a series without notching up a single win and his reputation, as discussed in-series, being that of a man with a rather impressive ability to consistently snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?

They evac Barette city and (try to) blow up the ruins as soon as the civvies are clear. It fails, and then Gramia shows up in orbit with a full power Sigur Valens with the song booster and fold barrier in working order.

Actually, when you said this another, even simpler solution occurred. We're told that the ship's conventional barrier is not operating at anything like full power when the ship is folding. Why didn't they just spawn-camp up in Ragna's orbit with a charged Macross Cannon and cap the sucker when he was defolding before Heinz could whip up a dimensional fault barrier? That'd settle matters really quick.

Elysion going to Al-Shahal, and getting off that parting shot at the Sigur Valens that busted its song booster for a bit is the only reason they managed to get *any* of the defending forces that stuck around until the end away with their minds intact.

You're not accounting for the continuing presence of Walkure, whose songs don't just knock Heinz on his butt but also prevent the NUNS garrison force from going Var.

Point of order sir, Birdman? I do not recall the Birdman being destroyed by nuclear fire, the contrary is true.

Four 20 kiloton reaction warheads all but totalled the Birdman when they went off inside the barrier. The most powerful reaction warhead yet mentioned is a good 500,000 times as powerful as the ones that messed the Birdman up.

What "well-established defenses" do you speak of? A Macross warship with four squads of VF-31's? A NUNS garrison that lasted maybe 5 minutes under the influence of the Wind Singer, which would have left whatever Chaos forces who were not affected as their only support.

A Macross warship with a fully operational macross cannon, a New UN Spacy fleet in orbit, hundreds of variable fighters, and Walkure to prevent the troops from succumbing to Var syndrome. Everyone who keeps trying to shout me down on this keeps forgetting this episode showed us Walkure can overcome Heinz's amplified Song of the Wind and keep troops from going Var in a direct conflict.

If we mix your description of the purpose of Johnson's attack then you would be correct, but I do not believe Johnson was attacking the whole fleet, but its' largest asset. Now in a normal enemy fleet with free thinking commanders it would be a suicide move as they would react even before the senior commanders would give orders. The SV fleet does not have that advantage. Perhaps Johnson counted on this or perhaps not.

An eloquent argument, but you've missed one detail that undermines it.

The ships escorting the Sigur Valens are Windermerean, not captured ships from the New UN Spacy. Their crews would not be under mind control, and they might even have enhanced abilities from the song of the wind.

Johnson would've been charging blindly into a fight with the Sigur Valens and maybe a dozen escort ships that would be perfectly adept at shooting back. It goes without saying that a Macross warship is heavily armored, but there's only so much one can take and we've seen that the Sigur Valens' turrets are enough to knock big chunks off it. He might have done some damage, but odds are he'd have lost the Elysion, Hemera, and Aether and Walkure in the bargain.

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8V98CWT.jpg

That face says it all.

Sure does, it says, I am competent and trustworthy.... of course I have ulterior motives, don't you? But I'm still competent. Now, If we can only find him a pair of glasses.

Well, remember... Windermere is out in the galactic boonies, and they've already shown that they have dimension weapons and aren't afraid to commit genocide.

Mind you, we've also been told that it takes a fair bit to get the federal New UN Forces to intervene. Odds are they'll take an active interest now that it's clearly beyond what the local schmucks can deal with.

(Also, since the NUNS are supposed to be a pretty peace-loving lot, genocide probably wouldn't be their go-to solution. I doubt they'd look kindly on doing the same thing to Windermere that the Zentradi Army did to Earth.)

Here is hoping that NUNS will actually intervene soon. I'd hate to have the Bert and Ernie show without Bert. NUNS is peace loving???? Huh???? :wacko:

So peace loving that we stockpile fold bombs and build massive fleets of Macross class ships... PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER I always say. :lol:

Elysion going to Al-Shahal, and getting off that parting shot at the Sigur Valens that busted its song booster for a bit is the only reason they managed to get *any* of the defending forces that stuck around until the end away with their minds intact.

Wait, did you just say Ernie got lucky????

One thing for sure though, Ernie should've been better prepared, he could've literally came out of fold with guns blazing, Itano circus flying, see ep 25 of Mac F; and you know the one thing that Ernie knew for sure going to Al Shahal, it was not going to be a friendly place. That he even had to give orders for the guns to fire tells you how incompetent a commander he is. You know, some default orders could be given to the guns; like I don't know... fire on the following silhouettes upon de-fold if in range. Could save you a few minutes of reaction time while you're blabbering about "Good move, Old Fart"

A Macross warship with four squads of VF-31's? A NUNS garrison that lasted maybe 5 minutes under the influence of the Wind Singer, which would have left whatever Chaos forces who were not affected as their only support. There is no evidence of ground weaponry outside of the landed Elysion. So exactly how do you fight a defensive war on a planetary scale with a handful of ships against a superior force? Defensive battles tend to use the environment for cover, exactly where is the "cover" on Ragna that cannot be affected by a planetary bombardment?

If we mix your description of the purpose of Johnson's attack then you would be correct, but I do not believe Johnson was attacking the whole fleet, but its' largest asset. Now in a normal enemy fleet with free thinking commanders it would be a suicide move as they would react even before the senior commanders would give orders. The SV fleet does not have that advantage. Perhaps Johnson counted on this or perhaps not.

I think your counter to my statement about bold commanders is more akin to defence of your position rather than acknowledgement of history.

No argument that a good defense is a strong offense... if that's the case, Ernie was woefully unprepared for his offense... do I even need to go down a list here of how unprepared he was for the offense....

I mean you already listed all the arguments, go in with planes un-launched, weapons unprepared, not knowing where the heck your enemy is, not enough planes, the list is kind of getting long.

And let us say that his sole purpose was to take out the command ship (AKA largest asset), I'm sure the rest of the slave minds and the Windermere fleet is perfectly willing to let this one puny macross ship pound the command asset into pieces while chewing on popcorn. A one on one duel... while everyone else sit it out.

:D:blink::rolleyes::o:touche::o:p:D:rolleyes:

And if you go back to episode 12, Ernie even criticized the old fart as such, all about chivalry and all that crap... yep, that worked out well. Way to read your enemy, Ernie.... GOOD JOB. Apparently, The old fart wasn't the only one who isn't good at fleet action. Ernie... where is your fleet???

Ernie: "I'm glad you asked... they are all safe at Ragna, away from the devastating influence of the VAR."

Bert: "Oh, ok, but what if you don't beat the old fart? Won't those guys just succumb to the VAR in 15 minutes like the guys at Al Shahal."

Ernie: "Then, we're all screwed... I'm counting on the hero factor."

Bert: "Well, Ernie, thanks for clearing that up, now let's go save the galaxy."

Ernie: "Sure thing, Bert."

Gosh, I love armchair quarterbacking.

Edited by kalvasflam
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A Macross warship with a fully operational macross cannon, a New UN Spacy fleet in orbit, hundreds of variable fighters, and Walkure to prevent the troops from succumbing to Var syndrome. Everyone who keeps trying to shout me down on this keeps forgetting this episode showed us Walkure can overcome Heinz's amplified Song of the Wind and keep troops from going Var in a direct conflict.

The episode also established that in the beginning the NUNS fleet was ineffectual due to the Wind Song, even with the Walkurie singing, it was not until Freyja began singing for Hayate did Heinz get overcome by the group. The Macross was not as effective against the SV until the Fold Fault barrier was disabled and even then all she was able to do was damage the bridge ultimately. Granted, this argument also proves how futile Johnson's hail mary attack on the SV would have been prior, but the alternative was a razed earth battle on Ragna. Not a great set of options for any commander tasked with protecting a civilian world. Take the fight to the enemy or be responsible for thousands of deaths on a planet that will be overcome by a superior force. The third alternative is to abandon Ragna (like Nato did with Ruwanda) to Windermere and lose the war, which is where we ultimately have come to anyway.

No amount of tactics would prevent this as none of the forces available outside of the Elysion were immune to the wind song mind control affect. So the only ones able to remain effective against the SV and the wind song were vastly outnumbered. The song amplifier is turning out to be a formidable weapon and the only time Walkurie was able to fully counter it was when Mikuno and Freyja were at that shrine at the time of the attack on cat world and when Freyja pulled a Basara during the battle.

Gosh, I love armchair quarterbacking.

Unfortunately you are poor at debate... :rolleyes:

The sarcasm demonstrated that.

Edited by Zinjo
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Unfortunately you are poor at debate... :rolleyes:

The sarcasm demonstrated that.

So, no witty comments about why the Ernie did the best he could?

Ok, I can see that's the best you can come up with, so we'll call it a day. BTW, that wasn't sarcasm... just the fact masked in... good ol' fashion emoji. And demonstration of what Bert and Ernie from Sesame street might say if they were in this situation.

Edited by kalvasflam
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I think it's perfectly reasonable that one Macross-class warship was enough to bust the entire Windermere fleet with its wave motion gun. We're shown its defenses were strong enough to tank a blast from a Protoculture warship. Full power or not, I think it would be foolish to assume seven warships would be an overpowering force for a ship of that class. The SDF-1 took on odds like that every episode.

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This is like arguing politics, you lot are so completely convinced Johnson is an idiot that you can't accept any arguments that he isn't.

Chaos didn't win? Chaos aren't a true military force, they're basically security guards for the galaxy's rowdiest concerts. They're tiny, they're spread thin, and their entire training is to shoot to disable, rather than kill, because the people they usually fight are innocents that can be brought back to normal with sufficient song.

They end up being charged with protecting the entire cluster from a nation-state actor with the ability to suborn local forces in minutes, and whose base they can't get to despite knowing where it is, and who has all the advantages. And their best asset at combating the Var can only be in one place at a time, while Heinz doesn't have to leave Windermere and can project his song anywhere in the cluster.

Despite these disadvantages, they still manage to figure out what the cause of the mind control is, and what the enemy plans to do. They even have a plan to do something about it - which would have worked Heinz hadn't miraculously gained the ability to sing twice a day instead of once.

"Why didn't they lie in wait for the Sigur Valens and blast it as it came out of Fold?" I don't know, why did no one else try doing that? Oh wait they did at Al Shahal, and the fold barrier came up immediately, no-sold the whole armada's massed strike, and then the fold song turned all the defenders in 15 minutes.

"But with Walkure singing it would be different!" Walkure were stunned out of their own song when Heinz started singing, it was that strong. Walkure *themselves* needed a morale booster or two before they managed to start up again.

Face it, the moment the bomb went off and the ruins were unhurt, it was plainly obvious that the planet was lost. They'd traded the city away and gotten nothing, and would never have gotten anything even if the Sigur Valens *hadn't* been sitting on top of the ruins when they blew.

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Only, now Gramia is toast. Though, did we see him getting toasted? Or did Roid take the opportunity to toast the guy himself?

Yeah, I don't buy it. If the king was supposed to have been impaled by shrapnel from the explosion, where's the fatal shard in his chest wound? I think Lloyd ran him through with his sword in the chaos.

BTW, what's up with his glasses thing? Does Lloyd actually have a Manchurian Candidate split/sleeper personality with the change of glasses as a tell or something?

Then again, this whole thing could have just been Gramia really wanting to get his hands on that limited edition display stand for his 144/1 scale Protoculture warship.

😁 Edited by hulagu
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This is like arguing politics, you lot are so completely convinced Johnson is an idiot that you can't accept any arguments that he isn't.

Chaos didn't win? Chaos aren't a true military force, they're basically security guards for the galaxy's rowdiest concerts. They're tiny, they're spread thin, and their entire training is to shoot to disable, rather than kill, because the people they usually fight are innocents that can be brought back to normal with sufficient song.

They end up being charged with protecting the entire cluster from a nation-state actor with the ability to suborn local forces in minutes, and whose base they can't get to despite knowing where it is, and who has all the advantages. And their best asset at combating the Var can only be in one place at a time, while Heinz doesn't have to leave Windermere and can project his song anywhere in the cluster.

Despite these disadvantages, they still manage to figure out what the cause of the mind control is, and what the enemy plans to do. They even have a plan to do something about it - which would have worked Heinz hadn't miraculously gained the ability to sing twice a day instead of once.

"Why didn't they lie in wait for the Sigur Valens and blast it as it came out of Fold?" I don't know, why did no one else try doing that? Oh wait they did at Al Shahal, and the fold barrier came up immediately, no-sold the whole armada's massed strike, and then the fold song turned all the defenders in 15 minutes.

"But with Walkure singing it would be different!" Walkure were stunned out of their own song when Heinz started singing, it was that strong. Walkure *themselves* needed a morale booster or two before they managed to start up again.

Face it, the moment the bomb went off and the ruins were unhurt, it was plainly obvious that the planet was lost. They'd traded the city away and gotten nothing, and would never have gotten anything even if the Sigur Valens *hadn't* been sitting on top of the ruins when they blew.

Ernie was unprepared for a battle he was going into. i think we can agreed on that. The problem is not just about not knowing the unknowns. If we accept that he has a good reason for not bringing the rest of the fleet, it still doesn't explain not firing the moment they came out of fold and seeing a fleet of bad guys in front of them.

He knew he was going into a battle after all.

As for the mandate of KAOS, that's still a mystery to me how they operate relative to NUNS, which are like a bunch of absentee landlords. May be the best way to describe KAOS is that they are extended security for a pop group, said pop group being contracted out to NUNS.

From that perspective, how you likened KAOS to security guards make sense. Ernie isn't a professional soldier and so might not think like one.

Edited by kalvasflam
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Keep in mind they didn't expect the Sigur Valens to be waiting for them where it was. They were surprised by that, as Gramia was able to position his ship in preparation for Elysion's attack.

That Johnson was able to get a shot off at all in that situation is a testament to his speed and skill. At least, that's how it's presented.

Edited by Product9
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Keep in mind they didn't expect the Sigur Valens to be waiting for them where it was. They were surprised by that, as Gramia was able to position his ship in preparation for Elysion's attack.

Ok, let's try this way.

Watch the first 45 seconds of the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRTWVtreFy0 (wish I knew how to embed the video... :( )

This is Frontier, you'll note they fired as they folded out.

Ok, now watch the first minute of episode 13 on Delta, Ernie folds out, enemy ships dead ahead... and... nothing happened... enemy ship passing to the port side... nothing is happening except Ernie takes five seconds to make some glorified comments. Garmia takes a second or two to say: "And so it begins... **$&*@&* --> my imitation of Kosh.

Ernie then shouts, all guns, FIRE... The gun turrets swivel in place and respond. I think we wasted a good ten seconds here between fold out and when the guns swivel.

So, when you say:

That Johnson was able to get a shot off at all in that situation is a testament to his speed and skill. At least, that's how it's presented.

I would say that it is a poor showing for him as a captain of a combat vessel that he didn't come out with guns ready to fire, and that it took a full ten seconds (or however many it took) before the first shot is fired.

The similarity is striking, in both cases (Frontier and Delta) these guys knew they were going into a combat situation. The Quarter with Wilde was imminently prepared to go in with guns blazing. In fact, they did exactly that when the ship wasn't even completely folded out.

Ernie came in apparently expecting a picnic, he shouldn't have been surprised coming out, in fact, the bridge bunny even warned him before defold. Think about it, if you're going into combat, knowing there are enemies, but may be not where they are, why would you be surprised if they are suddenly in front of you. The first thing you would do is have some orders in place that if you happen to fold out right in the middle of an enemy formation, all guns starts firing, no need for the commander to be surprised, and then take seconds to yammer orders out. In battle, being prepared to fight before it starts helpsp. And since this is capital ships we're talking about, not much chance to dodge. Folding out as he did in front of an enemy fleet, if he was prepared, he could've wreaked havoc on the smaller ships, but he did't do any such thing. He could've fired immediately on the SV, although not explicitly shown, I'm going to assume the ships had smaller guns as well, and probably destroids toting missiles that could cause damage. Hell, he had the Valks ready to deploy, look at Mac F, those Valks weren't on the deck of the quarter when they folded out, they were already in the air, readying to shot.

I put aside the fact that perhaps those shots would've done nothing because of the barriers in place. We'll never know since Heinz wasn't exactly singing at that point. But really, whether he could have caused damage or not, we won't know, because ol'Ernie didn't even shot.

To me, it's the lack of preparation that tells me that Ernie is not a good captain.

Edited by kalvasflam
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