Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 9 - READ 1st POST

[UN Spacy]

Questions:

What or who is Hemera?

Why was one of the carriers missing from the fortress near the beginning and showed up again at the end. Was that the Hemera?

Thanks!

It's Macross Elysion's starboard side carrier.

Aether and Hemera were the personifications of day and light in Greek mythology.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

Edit: Nevermind, UN Spacy answered the question right before I did.

Edited June 4, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[Duymon]

I really hope next time two aces fight they remember that they're flying VARIABLE fighters, if u know what I mean

[Mazinger]

I keep wondering when someone is gonna ask about Hayate's necklace. If fold quartz so common that it doesn't raise any eyebrows? Is it so cheap that anyone can get ahold of it? I'm especially surprised that Kaname or Arad haven't asked him about it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Finally got to sit down and watch this one... had to wait a few days after my computer decided that the best way to let me know it'd decided seven and a half years in service was enough was to set itself on fire.

Armed with a new computer and a 4K display, I waded into the latest episode and was reasonably pleased by it.

We finally got to find out WHY Messer has a stick up his arse, though Kaname hasn't made a serious effort to give him a stick-ectomy yet... and we got the first inkling of a Hayate x Mirage romance, which it looks like next episode is going to elaborate upon further.

My one pet peeve about this episode is Messer's reaction to Var syndrome. It was enough to have the creepy popping veins and psychotic leer, he did NOT need to Hulk out.

I keep wondering when someone is gonna ask about Hayate's necklace. If fold quartz so common that it doesn't raise any eyebrows? Is it so cheap that anyone can get ahold of it? I'm especially surprised that Kaname or Arad haven't asked him about it.

The VF-31 is a 5th Generation variable fighter... clearly it's not that hard to get 'hold of, since you can't build an ISC or fold wave system without the stuff.

[Master Dex]

Questions:

What or who is Hemera?

Why was one of the carriers missing from the fortress near the beginning and showed up again at the end. Was that the Hemera?

Thanks!

You answered your own question, heh. Hamera is the right arm carrier yeah. Best we can guess though, it was deployed on a mission at the time of the attack.

The VF-31 is a 5th Generation variable fighter... clearly it's not that hard to get 'hold of, since you can't build an ISC or fold wave system without the stuff.

Fold Wave sure... but ISCs existed before fold quartz was a regular thing right? I guess they did that on earlier fighters with the fold carbon?

Edited June 4, 2016 by Master Dex

[UN Spacy]

I really hope next time two aces fight they remember that they're flying VARIABLE fighters, if u know what I mean

AGREED...kinda tired of the mostly Fighter only dogfight.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fold Wave sure... but ISCs existed before fold quartz was a regular thing right? I guess they did that on earlier fighters with the fold carbon?

Well... yes and no.

To be precise, the same principles were applied in an earlier and less effective form of the technology that humanity acquired from the Zentradi after the First Space War. That's the Inertia Vector Control System that humanity encountered on the Quimeliquola Queadluun-Rau and later applied to the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II, which presumably uses fold carbon. The more effective Inertia Store Converter technology was developed from the Inertia Vector Control System and has the requirement of fold quartz to achieve the high levels of g-force protection that make it possible for a flesh-and-blood being to operate a 5th Generation variable fighter to anywhere near its full potential.

[Master Dex]

Well... yes and no.

To be precise, the same principles were applied in an earlier and less effective form of the technology that humanity acquired from the Zentradi after the First Space War. That's the Inertia Vector Control System that humanity encountered on the Quimeliquola Queadluun-Rau and later applied to the YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II, which presumably uses fold carbon. The more effective Inertia Store Converter technology was developed from the Inertia Vector Control System and has the requirement of fold quartz to achieve the high levels of g-force protection that make it possible for a flesh-and-blood being to operate a 5th Generation variable fighter to anywhere near its full potential.

Ah, fascinating... I had mistakenly believed it to be older. So Ex-Gear is just an addition to this or perhaps part of it I guess. Also fighters without Ex-gear must still use it but have different forms of seats and ejection systems (we know this is true of the Draken). The VF-27 counts though... clearly it was designed for cyborgs.

[azrael]

Ah, fascinating... I had mistakenly believed it to be older. So Ex-Gear is just an addition to this or perhaps part of it I guess. Also fighters without Ex-gear must still use it but have different forms of seats and ejection systems (we know this is true of the Draken). The VF-27 counts though... clearly it was designed for cyborgs.

EX-Gear is just a fancy ejection seat which gives you an exo-skeleton and LMG. You don't need EX-Gear in an ICS and EX-Gear can be used anywhere it can fit. A VF-27 just happens to have EX-Gear and ICS while also requiring a cyborg to pilot it.

[Vision33r]

I get the feeling Messer is finally going to have to be put down and it'll be by Hayate. That will drive him to fly harder to make up for Messer's absence (Hayate has already marveled at what a good pilot he is) because he feels compelled to fill that role.

Maybe, I don't get that feeling yet. It's unlike Macross to delete a character in the series so early on. If Messer is gone, there won't be enough support to protect Walkure and Keith will be really bored of fighting lesser capable pilots. I don't think Hayate will ever become the ace pilot in the series. His purpose is to be support of Walkure and use his fold receptors to amplify their song power. So he is more like Basara, he'll fly around and dodge stuff and protect Freyja but don't expect him to take on all of the Windmere fighters. Same goes for Mirage, she's just not that good.

[Chronocidal]

I'm doing the sudden catch up, watched the entire series up to this point in the past couple days.. I'm starting to suspect that Hayate's going to actually go more toward the Veffidas route, since she never sang to begin with, and we're going to wind up with he and Freya pairing up in his valk for a song and dance act. His plane was already imitating Alto from the second Frontier movie, and we're only a third of the way into the series.

Dunno if this even needs to be in spoilers, and this may have been brought up before, but just to be on the safe side.. Anyone get the feeling that the Protoculture ruins are later, more refined editions of the Bird Man? We know what the "song of destruction" almost did to Earth. Did Windermere discover how to emulate it, and set off the Protoculture kill switch by accident? It would explain what happened with their own world.

Walkure didn't have any effect on deactivated ruins.. maybe it's because they're sending out the "deactivation" command to a system that's already disengaged...

I'm probably bringing up things already mentioned, but I need to go read through a couple months worth of discussions before I'm up to speed on the theories.

[Master Dex]

Dunno if this even needs to be in spoilers, and this may have been brought up before, but just to be on the safe side.. Anyone get the feeling that the Protoculture ruins are later, more refined editions of the Bird Man? We know what the "song of destruction" almost did to Earth. Did Windermere discover how to emulate it, and set off the Protoculture kill switch by accident? It would explain what happened with their own world.

Walkure didn't have any effect on deactivated ruins.. maybe it's because they're sending out the "deactivation" command to a system that's already disengaged...

I'm probably bringing up things already mentioned, but I need to go read through a couple months worth of discussions before I'm up to speed on the theories.

I think you are good as far as spoilers.. this is the episode 9 thread a week after airing after all, with no episode 10 yet.

It's an interesting idea, though we know what happened to Windermere was likely their own fault. At the very least, we know they detonated a Dimensional weapon, blamed it on the NUNS, and it seems to be having a long term effect of some unknown type. The theory that they have damaged their ruins somehow is one I kind of like but it doesn't entirely explain everything yet.

[Product9]

I really hope next time two aces fight they remember that they're flying VARIABLE fighters, if u know what I mean

Messer's gonna be so surprised when he finds out what that lever does.

[RedWolf]

The VF-31 is a 5th Generation variable fighter... clearly it's not that hard to get 'hold of, since you can't build an ISC or fold wave system without the stuff.

However we know harvesting and use of Fold Quartz is regulated by the NUN due to the potential to make a WMD with them.

I have a feeling Hayate receiving it from his father is red herring. I find him similar to Mikumo seeking purpose.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah, fascinating... I had mistakenly believed it to be older. So Ex-Gear is just an addition to this or perhaps part of it I guess. Also fighters without Ex-gear must still use it but have different forms of seats and ejection systems (we know this is true of the Draken). The VF-27 counts though... clearly it was designed for cyborgs.

Macross Chronicle does assert that the ancient Protoculture did have their own version of inertia capacitor technology implied to be superior to the inertia vector control system they equipped the Zentradi Army's Queadluun-Rau with, but the human-made inertia store converter technology is a relatively recent innovation that took about 17 years of development to get right. The YF-24 was the testbed for the technology's development, and the later YF-24 Evolution prototype was the means by which the technology was disseminated to the emigrant fleets and planets.

EX-Gear is not strictly necessary for an Inertia Store Converter-equipped Valkyrie, but you could argue that it's a near-ideal complementary system. Its g-proof seat functions while docked to a VF allow the pilot to more easily withstand the g-forces inherent in operating a variable fighter, and the improved control system helps pilots more readily adjust to new aircraft and get the most out of any aircraft they happen to fly. (It bears remembering that ISC technology obeys conservation of energy - the g-forces it buffers are not lost, they're stored temporarily and then slowly returned to the airframe in a controlled fashion. You could say that it clips the peaks and fills the valleys in a graph of the g-forces a VF is subjected to, so that the g-forces never reach an intolerable or injurious level for the pilot or a damaging level for the airframe. EX-Gear lends a helping hand with the g-forces that the pilot is still experiencing.)

It's also worth remembering that, while it is probable the Sv-262 Draken III uses an inertia store converter, we don't know for sure that it does... the Windermerean superior physical abilities may permit them to go ahead and tank those high g-forces without assistance, or perhaps with assistance from the cheaper and less-capable inertia vector control system.

It's an interesting idea, though we know what happened to Windermere was likely their own fault. At the very least, we know they detonated a Dimensional weapon, blamed it on the NUNS, and it seems to be having a long term effect of some unknown type. The theory that they have damaged their ruins somehow is one I kind of like but it doesn't entirely explain everything yet.

The Japanese websites I've been perusing lately suggest that the detonation of the dimensional warhead (dimension eater) at Scarfell/Carlyle cracked the fabric of space-time in that place... though with what consequences we don't yet know. It's not going to be anything good, though... it never is when something bad happens to space-time.

On a fun aside, I have a notion about Windermerean runes...

Specifically... my theory is that Windermereans have their runes and the mild empathic abilities that apparently go with them because the same fold bacteria that cause Var syndrome are a natural part of their species' typical microbiome. Like the Vajra, who developed a symbiotic relationship with a fold bacterium that resided in their intestines, I suspect the Windermereans have evolved (by the design of ancient Protoculture genetic engineers) a symbiotic relationship with the Var syndrome fold bacterium. My theory is that, instead of situating itself in their intestines like the V-type bacterium, the Var bacterium is situated inside their runes and the connected brain tissue... enabling them to sense emotion through biological fold waves the way certain biological fold waves cause Var syndrome in non-Windermereans.

What I'm left to wonder is whether the Var syndrome bacterium is something that was unique to Windermere and spread throughout the galaxy as an unintentional consequence of first contact, or if it's something that existed on every planet the Protoculture visited or even a result of exposing normal bacteria to fold space for long periods of time.

[Chronocidal]

That could play along with the theory the one Windermerean character is putting forth about the people there being the true heirs to the protoculture, saying they were more advanced.. If Var is a natural mutation due to fold wave exposure, the runes may have been an experiment to attempt finding a solution for Var-like mental deterioration. The Protoculture may have been experiencing similar problems due to massive use of fold-based technology.

The substance they keep refereing to that promotes Var though, sounds vaguely like a modern day carcinogen that can cause cell mutations.

What I wonder about Windermerean biology though... if the runes were an experiment to give them the ability to deal with fold waves directly, what if they were ultimately considered a failure by the Protoculture? Perhaps the stress imposed on the body by the runes was unintentional, and they abandoned the idea afterward due to how it limited their lifespan.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Chronocidal

[MisaForever]

Thanks for the answers on the carrier! I honestly must have missed that somewhere. Just found it odd that it was missing at the beginning but then was back at the end. I suppose it was just a timing thing.

[eko.prasetiyo]

well about the hemera. just realize. when hayate & mirage talk to messer the hemera was seen. when suddenly there's raid alarm the scene switched to main bridge and then hemera is gone (where?). when bogue want to attack walkure it seems hemera docked again on elysion.

[tout-puissant]

I'm guessing that the Hemera had *just* been deployed on a mission when the Knights did their diversionary recon thing; she was then immediately recalled and the 31A reinforcements were in fact from that carrier. They could have made a slightly bigger deal of it... OTOH, why weren't there more fighters launched from the Aether? Are they still short a squadron after the Knights tore through the CFs back in episode 6?

Mark

[Scyla]

The stream I used to watch Macross Delta with hasn't even uploaded episode 9. Major bummer!

[Saruta]

It's all googleable. (Discussing further details is not allowed here, but I hope "google it" is too generic to break that rule)

Edited June 13, 2016 by Saruta

[RNietzsche]

That could play along with the theory the one Windermerean character is putting forth about the people there being the true heirs to the protoculture, saying they were more advanced.. If Var is a natural mutation due to fold wave exposure, the runes may have been an experiment to attempt finding a solution for Var-like mental deterioration. The Protoculture may have been experiencing similar problems due to massive use of fold-based technology.

The substance they keep refereing to that promotes Var though, sounds vaguely like a modern day carcinogen that can cause cell mutations.

What I wonder about Windermerean biology though... if the runes were an experiment to give them the ability to deal with fold waves directly, what if they were ultimately considered a failure by the Protoculture? Perhaps the stress imposed on the body by the runes was unintentional, and they abandoned the idea afterward due to how it limited their lifespan.

The chemical is created by reaction between the voldor cation (probably a metal - voldorite) and some sort of unique polyphenol (windiol). Polyphenols are a huge and diverse class of chemicals and the same one that causes var could be the source of the windemere apples' deliciousness or coloring.

A lot of non-color non-flavor polyphenols function as protein activators/deactivators by binding to specific proteins. A possible mechanism is that ionization of windiol by voldorite changes the solubility of windiol, letting it cross the blood-brain barrier. The cells can't digest the windiol so it stays put.

The bad singing and/or agression catalyzes the windiol binding to a specific protein which messes with your brain chemistry, affecting your cognition, adrenaline production, etc.

The good singing dissociates the windiol-protein bonds, but can't eliminate the windiol itself. The fold bacteria metabolize windiol, making receptors immune. Windemere folks could already metabolize windiol due to enzymes evolved from living in its presence.

A consequence of this idea would be that anyone who eats the apples and drinks the water with voldorite is permanently at risk, and that V type infection might cure it. Also that a cure could be developed from Frejya's gut. It could be that the same mechanism is responsible for windemerians strength and lifespan.

Whew, never thought that chemical and biomolecular engineering degree would be applicable to macross.

Edited June 26, 2016 by RNietzsche