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7 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

So I wonder what excuse will be revealed as to why Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon would not have summoned a bolt of lightning into Darth Sidious during his reign?

Magical Force tomfoolery. The strength of Sidious's hatred or evilness or control of the Force or what-have-you prevents them from manipulating the Force around him or some such. The same reason Gandalf didn't just summon the eagles.

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1 minute ago, Dobber said:

It already was. In “Leia, Princess of Alderaan” it is a early Rebel cell base. That book also introduces Holdo. She’s not a bad character, I just thought the stupid lack of logic made little to no sense in the movie, and to use the character just to through her away was pointless.

LOL.    

Not surprised....afterall...Snoke is the posterboy for "tossed away" characters. :rolleyes:

Don't be older than maybe 35 in a Star Wars movie.....you'll most likely be dead before the credits roll....or at least by the next installment! :5:

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1 minute ago, kajnrig said:

Magical Force tomfoolery. The strength of Sidious's hatred or evilness or control of the Force or what-have-you prevents them from manipulating the Force around him or some such. The same reason Gandalf didn't just summon the eagles.

Magical Force tomfoolery......that's sounds about right.....^_^

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58 minutes ago, Dobber said:

It already was. In “Leia, Princess of Alderaan” it is a early Rebel cell base. That book also introduces Holdo. She’s not a bad character, I just thought her stupid lack of logic made little to no sense in the movie, and to use the character just to through her away was pointless.

She's only a bad character in the movie because now they're riding the merchandise train, and shoveling heaps of necessary expository content into alternate sources that you have to go out and buy. :rolleyes: 

Really though.. the really depressing thing about the entire plot?  The entire Resistance, minus what got away on the Falcon, were killed as a direct result of Poe, Finn, and Rose's cockeyed plan to rescue them.  I have a really hard time shifting any blame to Holdo, because whether she should have been more forthcoming with the details or not, their reckless decisions cost who knows how many hundreds of people their lives.

I get it that they were trying to teach Poe a lesson about leadership, but good freaking grief people... there are less severe ways for people to be taught humility than this.  I mean seriously, if the three of them weren't all main characters, they would have been flushed out an airlock.  You don't teach someone leadership skills by having them get caught committing an act they should be executed for. <_< 

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4 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

She's only a bad character in the movie because now they're riding the merchandise train, and shoveling heaps of necessary expository content into alternate sources that you have to go out and buy. :rolleyes: 

Really though.. the really depressing thing about the entire plot?  The entire Resistance, minus what got away on the Falcon, were killed as a direct result of Poe, Finn, and Rose's cockeyed plan to rescue them.  I have a really hard time shifting any blame to Holdo, because whether she should have been more forthcoming with the details or not, their reckless decisions cost who knows how many hundreds of people their lives.

I get it that they were trying to teach Poe a lesson about leadership, but good freaking grief people... there are less severe ways for people to be taught humility than this.  I mean seriously, if the three of them weren't all main characters, they would have been flushed out an airlock.  You don't teach someone leadership skills by having them get caught committing an act they should be executed for. <_< 

It really isn’t necessary, you are just introduced to her in that book. She’s actually a very odd girl in the book, but develops a good friendship with Leia. The base is nothing overly important either, both character and base are more like “hey I read about you in that book” no required backstory to get insight or information. Holdo was still a contributing factor in that. Think about in ESB. Leia is briefing the Troops about the how the Hoth Evacuation will proceed. A grunt actually speaks out by incredulously asking “2 fighters against a Star Destroyer!?” Does Leia just keep her mouth shut and smile, give some cryptic message of faith, or just tell the grunt he’s too low ranking to be in the know..(all things that Holdo did in the course of the “Chase”) No, she answered the Troopers concern by explaining that the Ion Cannon will provide covering fire. That’s why I can’t stand the lack of Logic in what Holdo did. If she would’ve just told Poe, regardless of his recent demotion he still destroyed Starkiller base and was, according to TFA one of Leia’s most trusted people. Not to mention she obviously talked to Holdo about him being the a future Leader of the Resistance, according to dialog between them in TLJ. 

I agree about the state of the Resistance, now the New Rebellion, at the end of this movie. At least at the end of Empire the Rebels still had a Fleet...a real one too, not just the 3 ships the Resistance HAD.  I hope Episode nine takes place around 10 years later, to give time for things to build up.

Chris

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It's an entirely fair point, I am surprised she felt the need to keep everything from everyone.  Even if they were worried about spies leaking their position, she should have trusted Poe with the plan at the very least.

Either way, yeah, the Resistance is pretty much washed up at this point.  I'm hoping we at least get some explanation of why they got no response from any allies (or at least some explanation for how the First Order took over the entire galaxy in the span of a few days), but I'm not quite holding my breath.

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1 minute ago, Chronocidal said:

It's an entirely fair point, I am surprised she felt the need to keep everything from everyone.  Even if they were worried about spies leaking their position, she should have trusted Poe with the plan at the very least.

Either way, yeah, the Resistance is pretty much washed up at this point.  I'm hoping we at least get some explanation of why they got no response from any allies (or at least some explanation for how the First Order took over the entire galaxy in the span of a few days), but I'm not quite holding my breath.

Yeah, neither am I.

Chris

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It's no more or less silly than naming fighters with letters, or using any number of very reality-oriented phrases.  I'm pretty sure I once caught someone saying "par for the course" in one of the EU novels, and thinking, "Wait... do they even have golf?"

Also, this:

https://xkcd.com/890/

A lot of things like chocolate or coffee they later introduced pseudonyms for, but you kind of have to accept that certain words are just going to be accepted as universal concepts.

Edited by Chronocidal
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10 hours ago, CoryHolmes said:

All this talk about TFA and TLJ reminds me of a better version of a post-Endor story.  Time to bust out the Heir to the Empire trilogy again.

Amen to that. I find it very interesting how Thrawn and the TIE Defender (and evidently Rukh! I need to catch upon Rebels) have been canonized after so many years.

I would be completely happy to Eternal Sunshine the whole Last Jedi from my memory. I can't get over how much I can constantly find to nitpick about it. I do wonder how in the world JJ is going to attempt to piece together a story in the next movie, but I'm truly not sure that I care that much any more. (Certainly not as much as I did before having seen TLJ.)

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50 minutes ago, Axelay said:

Amen to that. I find it very interesting how Thrawn and the TIE Defender (and evidently Rukh! I need to catch upon Rebels) have been canonized after so many years.

I haven't been following Rebels, and knew about Thrawn, but bringing in Rukh feels really surprising.  Really, the more they bring back from the EU, the more it feels like they could just tweak a few little details, and bring over a lot of novels directly into the new canon.

Do we have an official timeline as to how old Kylo Ren is, and when he wrecked Luke's academy?  Even if we say Ben was born a year after Endor, that still puts his turning around 15 years before TLJ, and that leaves a ton of time to fill in somehow.  Luke wasn't gone that whole 30 years.

I know some of the new novels have addressed the years directly after Endor, but how much of that time is filled in?

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1 hour ago, Axelay said:

I do wonder how in the world JJ is going to attempt to piece together a story in the next movie, but I'm truly not sure that I care that much any more. (Certainly not as much as I did before having seen TLJ.)

He could bring time travel into the Star Wars universe and "make things right...again"......he could make it all into a Star Trek-like alt reality.....make the entire Star Wars Saga a dream.....Go full-on LOST....move on to ripping-off the prequel trilogy? :unknw:

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1 hour ago, Axelay said:

Amen to that. I find it very interesting how Thrawn and the TIE Defender (and evidently Rukh! I need to catch upon Rebels) have been canonized after so many years.

I would be completely happy to Eternal Sunshine the whole Last Jedi from my memory. I can't get over how much I can constantly find to nitpick about it. I do wonder how in the world JJ is going to attempt to piece together a story in the next movie, but I'm truly not sure that I care that much any more. (Certainly not as much as I did before having seen TLJ.)

Defender was always cannon in my eyes.

JJ won't bring anything together.  Look at his track record with other franchises, even his own creations.  Nothing he's done has ever wrapped up in a satisfying fashion.

Star Wars I have to start treating like Macross, there are designs and story ideas I like but the actual media I'm no longer interested in.  I take what I like and make my own world/story from it.

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2 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Do we have an official timeline as to how old Kylo Ren is, and when he wrecked Luke's academy?  Even if we say Ben was born a year after Endor, that still puts his turning around 15 years before TLJ, and that leaves a ton of time to fill in somehow.  Luke wasn't gone that whole 30 years.

I also have a big problem with this. I feel like it's safe to assume that Luke was still able to commune with Yoda after ROTJ, but we don't know that for certain now. If we are expected to believe that Luke wouldn't have consulted with him when he sensed something evil growing within Ben Solo... that just seems ridiculous to me. Especially with the amount of time which had passed. That thought never crossed his mind before he "closed himself off to the Force?" Even more so, would Luke have kept his ability to commune with Yoda, Obi-Wan, and even Anakin a secret from his new apprentices? I kinda feel like at some point Luke might have "introduced" his nephew to his grandfather. Yoda evidently taught Obi-Wan how to commune with Qui-Gon, so why wouldn't Luke also pass this knowledge along? And here's a real stretch for you - remember that brief little scene in ROTS where Yoda is meditating and he hears Qui-Gon saying "Anakin... Anakin, noooo!" That leads me to believe that Force ghosts are able to sense/observe things going on in the world of the living and could possibly interject or at least reach out to those who are attuned to them. Wouldn't Yoda or Obi-Wan or Anakin (now wouldn't that be interesting?) have said to Luke "um... hey, I think there's some bad stuff going on in this little one's head and we should try to work out some way to help him... without killing him in his sleep, y'know."

I am so tired of overthinking this movie. I can't believe that I hate it as much as I do.

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15 minutes ago, Axelay said:

I also have a big problem with this. I feel like it's safe to assume that Luke was still able to commune with Yoda after ROTJ, but we don't know that for certain now.

Just because Yoda could commune with him doesn't mean Yoda would.  Being a spectacular troll is apparently a trait common to many Jedi masters, Luke included.

Obi-Wan only seemed to show up when he bloody well felt like it in the original trilogy.  For instance, Luke wasn't able to call Obi-Wan forth to explain his "Anakin Skywalker is dead" whopper during the flight from Cloud City in Empire Strikes Back.  Kenobi only showed up to explain himself a full movie later in Return of the Jedi.

One thing I remember from the few Star Wars novels I read was that, the more time passes since a Jedi's death, the harder it is for their force ghost to manifest itself.  It might vary depending on how powerful the force user was in life or how in tune with the light side they were, but by the Thrawn Trilogy, Obi-Wan's ability to reach Luke faded until he could only communicate in dreams, and then not at all.  Maybe since Anakin was a Johnny-Come-Lately to the light side, he wasn't able to haunt Luke for very long... or maybe the more a force ghost manifests the faster they "burn out"?

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I'm not even thinking about the force ghost stuff.  I just want to know how long Luke was in exile.

I couldn't care less about the "retraction," Mark Hamill's original posting about how the character felt nothing like Luke hits every nail on the head simultaneously.  It feels like there is no viable path from where he was at the end of ROTJ, and the start of TLJ.  Time changes people, sure, but abandoning the entire galaxy to the whims of the student he failed?  What did he expect to happen?  <_< 

This might be just my imagination playing with me, but it feels like the little "let the past die" mantra is leaking into the universe as a whole.  It wasn't quite so prevalent in TFA, but this movie seems like it's going out of its way to show us that everything sucks, the galaxy is turning into a bigger version of Mos Eisley, everyone is completely incompetent at their jobs, and the universe is in need of a reboot.  Maybe that's their ultimate goal in the long run?

I can understand wanting to play with expectations, but they seem like they're actively working to kill off the bits that old fans like to hold onto, as if to say "Screw you, it's our movie now."

Edited by Chronocidal
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1 hour ago, Chronocidal said:

I'm not even thinking about the force ghost stuff.  I just want to know how long Luke was in exile.

I couldn't care less about the "retraction," Mark Hamill's original posting about how the character felt nothing like Luke hits every nail on the head simultaneously.  It feels like there is no viable path from where he was at the end of ROTJ, and the start of TLJ.  Time changes people, sure, but abandoning the entire galaxy to the whims of the student he failed?  What did he expect to happen?  <_< 

This might be just my imagination playing with me, but it feels like the little "let the past die" mantra is leaking into the universe as a whole.  It wasn't quite so prevalent in TFA, but this movie seems like it's going out of its way to show us that everything sucks, the galaxy is turning into a bigger version of Mos Eisley, everyone is completely incompetent at their jobs, and the universe is in need of a reboot.  Maybe that's their ultimate goal in the long run?

Jake Skywalker indeed, the guy who went out on a limb to save a father he never knew turns around and gives up on his own damn nephew.  It makes no sense given his character.  Now failing to fix him and going into depression/whatever makes sense, killing him in his sleep does not.

I'd comment on the "kill the past" thing but that starts leaning into politics.

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27 minutes ago, Mommar said:

Jake Skywalker indeed, the guy who went out on a limb to save a father he never knew turns around and gives up on his own damn nephew.  It makes no sense given his character.  Now failing to fix him and going into depression/whatever makes sense, killing him in his sleep does not.

I'd comment on the "kill the past" thing but that starts leaning into politics.

Considering the movie's pretty overt political undertones... but yes, maybe best not to wade into that territory. I do think it's interesting and important, though, to contrast "kill the past" - espoused by a single character - against what else the movie has to say about generational dissonance, legacies, and inheritance. It's kind of telling that the only one who waxes poetic about killing the past is the one who clung most strongly to it. The movie never sympathizes with Kylo Ren in this regard; explores it as a foil to Rey, sure, but never embraces it. Contrast that with Yoda and Luke, and Luke and Rey, and Leia and Holdo and Poe, and so on and so forth:

"Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

2 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

this movie seems like it's going out of its way to show us that everything sucks, the galaxy is turning into a bigger version of Mos Eisley, everyone is completely incompetent at their jobs, and the universe is in need of a reboot.  Maybe that's their ultimate goal in the long run?

I can understand wanting to play with expectations, but they seem like they're actively working to kill off the bits that old fans like to hold onto, as if to say "Screw you, it's our movie now."

Little bit of column A, little bit of column B, maybe? I wouldn't go so far as to say that everything sucks, but the movie definitely doesn't shy away from turning RotJ's happily ever after on its head.

3 hours ago, Axelay said:

Wouldn't Yoda or Obi-Wan or Anakin (now wouldn't that be interesting?) have said to Luke "um... hey, I think there's some bad stuff going on in this little one's head and we should try to work out some way to help him... without killing him in his sleep, y'know."

Force ghosts operate on the rule of dramatic tension. That's why Obi-Wan never spoke to Darth Vader, why Yoda didn't lightning bolt Palpatine... They're dramatic devices.

3 hours ago, Axelay said:

I am so tired of overthinking this movie. I can't believe that I hate it as much as I do.

It's really unhealthy, then, to dwell on it like this. You really should avoid talking about it for a while if it's eliciting such strong negative emotions.

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3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

 

This might be just my imagination playing with me, but it feels like the little "let the past die" mantra is leaking into the universe as a whole.  It wasn't quite so prevalent in TFA, but this movie seems like it's going out of its way to show us that everything sucks, the galaxy is turning into a bigger version of Mos Eisley, everyone is completely incompetent at their jobs, and the universe is in need of a reboot.  Maybe that's their ultimate goal in the long run?

I can understand wanting to play with expectations, but they seem like they're actively working to kill off the bits that old fans like to hold onto, as if to say "Screw you, it's our movie now."

I don't understand that whole "get rid off the past...kill it if you have to" mantra.......it ain't happening........Luke himself does a 360 and says...nope...forget that.....the Jedi will not die with me (Rey)....and 2) The whole dang process (jedi vs Sith) seems poised to get rebooted all over again as depicted with that slave kid.....essentially we will once again get a whole new generation of Jedi and at somepoint Sith or Dark Jedis.....it never ends.......

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2 hours ago, jvmacross said:

I don't understand that whole "get rid off the past...kill it if you have to" mantra.......it ain't happening........Luke himself does a 360 and says...nope...forget that.....the Jedi will not die with me (Rey)....and 2) The whole dang process (jedi vs Sith) seems poised to get rebooted all over again as depicted with that slave kid.....essentially we will once again get a whole new generation of Jedi and at somepoint Sith or Dark Jedis.....it never ends.......

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." is only spoken by Kylo Ren. And it's intentionally ironic, because he's the one following most closely in his forebears' footsteps. He starts the trilogy out trying so hard to be just like Darth Vader, and by the end of this movie, he's choking and screaming at everyone same as the grandfather whom he wants nothing to do with anymore.

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Yeah, besides the obvious statements in the arms dealer dialog, I also saw it as a nudge-nudge, wink-wink to Disney, Hasbro et al. The wars will continue as long as there’s $$ to be made...

”Live free, don’t join!”

 

...

Checks to see when 6” Rex gets wider release...

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8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Being a spectacular troll is apparently a trait common to many Jedi masters, Luke included.

One of the few bright spots in this film was Troll Luke.  He was awesome!

"Where are you from?"

"Nowhere."

"No one is from nowhere."

"Jakku."

"Okay, that pretty much is nowhere."  And given that he's from Tattoine, that's saying something!

2 hours ago, kajnrig said:

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

Ironic, considering how slavishly the sequels are following the OT's storyline.  They're not killing the past, they're copying it wholesale!

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One of the better puns I heard from some YT critic was

 

Quote

"....Which follows 'La Résistance' to a Base on the planet, which we're told is made of salt, presumably from the tears of anyone who used to give a flying [expletive] about the Star Wars franchise"

 

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About the base. I found it funny that they made a big thing about there is only 1 way in or out and it’s through that big door, and then they promptly show soldiers getting to the OUTSIDE trenches through other doors and the surviving skimmer pilots make it back into the base through those same OTHER doors. I get that the FO is out there, but the definition of the ONLY way in or out is a bit off. The FO could’ve just sent troopers to the trenches and blown open the smaller doors....it’s not like their big door buster opened that big a hole in the big door, and all they did was march some troops in anyway. 

Chris

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6 hours ago, Dobber said:

About the base. I found it funny that they made a big thing about there is only 1 way in or out and it’s through that big door, and then they promptly show soldiers getting to the OUTSIDE trenches through other doors and the surviving skimmer pilots make it back into the base through those same OTHER doors. I get that the FO is out there, but the definition of the ONLY way in or out is a bit off. The FO could’ve just sent troopers to the trenches and blown open the smaller doors....it’s not like their big door buster opened that big a hole in the big door, and all they did was march some troops in anyway. 

Chris

Oh crap, I'd never considered that!  Now I can't unsee it if I should ever watch that scene again.

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7 hours ago, Dobber said:

About the base. I found it funny that they made a big thing about there is only 1 way in or out and it’s through that big door, and then they promptly show soldiers getting to the OUTSIDE trenches through other doors and the surviving skimmer pilots make it back into the base through those same OTHER doors. I get that the FO is out there, but the definition of the ONLY way in or out is a bit off. The FO could’ve just sent troopers to the trenches and blown open the smaller doors....it’s not like their big door buster opened that big a hole in the big door, and all they did was march some troops in anyway. 

Chris

Realizing this made me giggle.

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  • azrael changed the title to Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi, on home media Mar. 13, 2018

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