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Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST


azrael
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I'll try to regain some focus here. This all started when someone said the VF-31 was inferior to the YF-30, and all boiled down to the engines used and the capability of those to power a beam gunpod with beam grenade capability. There are two possibilites.

a) The engines mounted in the VF-31 and YF-30 are indeed physically indistinguishably, but rated for different flight envelopes in FADEC software. Nothing except self-preservation could impede you mounting YF-30 engines on VF-31 airframes if the initial premise was that those were physically identical. Just don't exceed maximum speed in atmosphere for the model or maximum g-turns if the armor can't compensate even with the increased power.

b) The engines mounted in the VF-31 are physically different. It is then implied there is some part number, ean code, sub designation, anything that an engineer could use to request the right engine replacement. So it may have the same designations, but per premise, those are not exactly the same engines.

Edited by Aries Turner
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This point reached, I don't care if you call it FF-3001/FC2 in both cases just for unraveling chaos and confusion within maintenance crew if you are at the same time implying those are in fact FF-3001/FC2-CHR and FF-3001/FC2-KAI or whatever.

No, they are both just FF-3001/FC2... the VF-31's FF-3001/FC2 engines are just detuned 11.1% for reasons that have not been explained. There are probably as many possible reasons for it as there are parts in the engine itself.

Like I said before, having two of the exact same model of engine tuned to different levels of performance is something that happens a LOT in Macross. Just because you don't like it won't make it untrue.

However, the VF-31A is no cargo plane: has almost same weight, same dimensions and same shape as YF-30. Nerfing it for the shake of it is like having octacores in the minimum die size of a given chip and disabling seven just to market it as single core (done IRL, though):

There are any number of potential reasons for using a detuned engine... like increasing the time between maintenance overhauls of the engine, reducing the burden on the cooling system, reducing structural stresses on the aircraft, reserving more reaction output for generating power instead of producing thrust, etc.

Even the VF-171EX had an excuse: its shape and weight is nowhere near Basara's ride.

The airframe shape and mass had pretty much nothing to do with it, actually... unless you'd count the airframe design being incompatible with an ISC.

The reason the VF-171EX uses detuned FF-2550F thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines is that they pushed the fighter right to the design tolerances. Had they tuned those engines for maximum power the excess thrust and its implications for maneuverability would have put the pilot in the unenviable position of being able to accidentally fly the plane to pieces.

There are two possibilites.

a) The engines mounted in the VF-31 and YF-30 are indeed physically indistinguishably, but rated for different flight envelopes in FADEC software. Nothing except self-preservation could impede you mounting YF-30 engines on VF-31 airframes if the initial premise was that those were physically identical.

b) The engines mounted in the VF-31 are physically different. It is then implied there is some part number, ean code, sub designation, anything that an engineer could use to request the right engine replacement. So it may have the same designations, but per premise, those are not exactly the same engines.

There is a third possibility, as we have alluded to before... the engine could be the same FF-3001/FC2 and something in the design of the aircraft the engine is installed on is imposing a limit on the engine's performance, like greater system loads on the PGS, the design limits of the airframe, inadequate cooling, etc.

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So option a). Read again, even the one before editing you quoted: your so called third possibility is still option a).

Why would anyone barely sane push the inferior safety structural limits of its ride mounting two YF-30 engines? To power a bigger rifle. To withstand greater damage. To burn fuel faster. To fly it to destruction, well beyond heat and g tolerances.

[Edit]: Oh, joy, I am no longer cannon fodder!

Edited by Aries Turner
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All F-18C/D Plus regional variants have more in common than those have in differences, even when using locally made electronics. There is no point in nitpicking: commercial liners have even engine options. Even PW and GE engined F-16, which the pilots distinguish and even have preferences for, present similar performance. Being *entirely* different engines.

Ok now you have stepped into my realm. There are big differences in performance between the PW and GE powered F-16's. The engines may be listed in the same class but the GE has far better performance. GE F-16's are faster for one. The F-100-GE-100 series require more air flow hence the largemouth intake. The fanblades on a GE are far larger than on the PW and force more air into the compressor. They are also quicker and smoother in response to throttle inputs. The transition from military power to augmentor is smooth in a GE but in a PW you can actually feel the engine actually go into burner. It literally shakes the jet. (I have run both types on the ground if you are wondering how I know). Even the small mouth GE engined block 30's cannot keep up with the large mouth versions. The fanblades on a GE are far larger than on the PW and force more air into the compressor The pilots also prefer GE's due to the responsiveness of the engine compared to the PW. The entire diameter of the PW is also far smaller compared to a GE. PW's also use bleed air from the engine to run the exhaust nozzle and VSV's. The GE uses the aircraft's fuel and oil system making the anti icing system on the engine far less complex.

There are systems mounted on engines of similar classes but performance can increased to distinguishing levels by changes to components, fan casing and inlet size and blade size.

If you notice a large majority of F-16's used by foreign countries are PW powered birds. The PW is a more robust engine and simpler to maintain but its performance is lower than the GE. This is one of the reasons why the USAF uses them only on a few bases ( Nellis, Edwards, Eglin and Holloman, all of these are training or test wings). The Air National Guard operates only a few squadrons of PW powered birds but the majority of their units are GE's.

Even if the YF-30 and 31 have a similar frame design Seto is correct. The slight differences in frame shape, center of gravity, stress points in the frame will cause changes to the frame and engine performance. It could be something as simple as frame vibrations caused by the engine when its running that influences the trimming or tuning/detuning of the engine. There is good possibility the inlet airflow levels may have changed between the two. Unless you put both frames in a wind tunnel though it is hard to tell. Certain grade fuels can cause changes in the settings on the engines, GE's can be switched by way of an allen stock key to run on other fuels besides JP-8. It changes the DEC/FADEC to the parameters set for those fuels. I am not sure what grades they use in Macross but I imagine there are several different depending on quality.

Edited by grigolosi
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the YF-30 have some trouble with its engine? When Leon gets to fly it for the first time against Isamu.

Maybe the Chronos' engine spec was overkill being a one off prototype and all and was "detuned" to a safer more manageable level for the Kairos and consequently Siegfried?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the YF-30 have some trouble with its engine? When Leon gets to fly it for the first time against Isamu.

Maybe the Chronos' engine spec was overkill being a one off prototype and all and was "detuned" to a safer more manageable level for the Kairos and consequently Siegfried?

AFAIK the Yf-29 also use the same engine but the one that the Chronos use is slightly uptune.I also think it is not overkill because of it role as Technology Demostrator.Plus during that Uroboros event,i think (maybe wrong)only the Yf-30 can go toe to toe with the Yf-29.
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So option a). Read again, even the one before editing you quoted: your so called third possibility is still option a).Why would anyone barely sane push the inferior safety structural limits of its ride mounting two YF-30 engines? To power a bigger rifle. To withstand greater damage. To burn fuel faster. To fly it to destruction, well beyond heat and g tolerances.[Edit]: Oh, joy, I am no longer cannon fodder!

I feel I didn't communicate the substance of my point correctly... the finer points of engine design and tuning are obvious to an engineer, but not necessarily to the average person.

What I'm talking about is a circumstance where the FF-3001/FC2 engine is running with a stock configuration and stock ECU software, but external controllers on the data bus communicate in such a way that the engine is simply never commanded to yield full power. The engine is still capable of that power on paper, but the control software elsewhere in the aircraft is written in such a way that the aircraft is not capable of commanding the ECU to yield that much power.

(This is actually quite common in automobile engines as a safety feature... particularly with e-motors, which can yield maximum torque at 0 rpm. I've had personal experience with what can happen when that protection is not functioning, and it certainly gets the adrenaline pumping.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the YF-30 have some trouble with its engine? When Leon gets to fly it for the first time against Isamu.

Maybe the Chronos' engine spec was overkill being a one off prototype and all and was "detuned" to a safer more manageable level for the Kairos and consequently Siegfried?

You're misremembering, I'm afraid.

It's the fighter you race him with BEFORE you get the YF-30 for the first time that suffers engine trouble, causing you to lose the race. (On New Game Plus, this is literally whatever fighter you're flying, even the YF-29.) The second race when you're using the YF-30 is then interrupted by Guld and Brera attacking you and dumping you into one of those trench runs.

AFAIK the Yf-29 also use the same engine but the one that the Chronos use is slightly uptune.I also think it is not overkill because of it role as Technology Demostrator.Plus during that Uroboros event,i think (maybe wrong)only the Yf-30 can go toe to toe with the Yf-29.

Slightly different model. The YF-29's two main engines are FF-3001/FC1 engines, the difference in net thrust between that the the /FC2 type the YF-30 uses is just 5kN.

You are right that the YF-30, with its high-powered engines and fold dimensional resonance system, was able to go toe-to-toe with an improved YF-29 designated YF-29B Percival and win.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Slightly different model. The YF-29's two main engines are FF-3001/FC1 engines, the difference in net thrust between that the the /FC2 type the YF-30 uses is just 5kN.

You are right that the YF-30, with its high-powered engines and fold dimensional resonance system, was able to go toe-to-toe with an improved YF-29 designated YF-29B Percival and win.

Noted Seto.BTW seto,do you think that the YF-29B have huge improvement over the original YF-29?So far i only notice the bayonet on its heavy quantum beam gunpod.
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Noted Seto. BTW seto, do you think that the YF-29B have huge improvement over the original YF-29? So far i only notice the bayonet on its heavy quantum beam gunpod.

I'd give an awful lot for detailed specs for the YF-29B Percival... I actually bought the DX from a vendor at last year's MacrossWorldCon, and was disappointed that the included manual didn't give stats for it any more than the game, the game's art book and player's guide, or Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet did.

Literally all we know is that the YF-29B Percival was an improved YF-29 given to ace pilots attached to the NUNS Special Forces unit "Havamal" including their top ace, Rod Baltemar.

I would assume that, given that it's a NUNS Special Forces unit, the YF-29B's systems were improved... more engine power, more powerful weapons, tougher armor, etc.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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If Macross Chronicle has not yet covered anything from Macross Delta (...)

Just to clear things up:

Macross Chronicle: 2008-2010

Macross Chronicle Revised Ed.: 2013-2014

At the time of writing, I am unaware of any plans to extend, continue, or reprint that publication.

I'm feeling a bit iffy by the statement that Kawamori can't make such a mistake because he is an engineer. (...)

We're also operating under the assumption that it was Kawamori-san himself who came up with the numbers. It's possible that other staff in the creative team - staff who are less-well versed in such things - did the numbers. It's even possible that Bandai came up with the numbers, and Kawamori merely rubber-stamped them after giving them a cursory once over.

It would be nice to know exactly how they arrived at the numbers and who was involved. Alas, the last I heard about anything on that side of the production was in regards to Macross Zero, and it involved Kawamori-san getting Dr. Chiba to come up with them. I'm not sure if that working relationship continued during Frontier, let alone Delta.

Edited by sketchley
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You're misremembering, I'm afraid.

It's the fighter you race him with BEFORE you get the YF-30 for the first time that suffers engine trouble, causing you to lose the race. (On New Game Plus, this is literally whatever fighter you're flying, even the YF-29.) The second race when you're using the YF-30 is then interrupted by Guld and Brera attacking you and dumping you into one of those trench runs.

Damn... I assumed it was taken from you/Leon because it needed repairs and given back to you at the end of the game.

Doesn't help I literally didn't understand 95% of the game.

Oh well thanks for the clarification.

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I'd give an awful lot for detailed specs for the YF-29B Percival... I actually bought the DX from a vendor at last year's MacrossWorldCon, and was disappointed that the included manual didn't give stats for it any more than the game, the game's art book and player's guide, or Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet did.

Literally all we know is that the YF-29B Percival was an improved YF-29 given to ace pilots attached to the NUNS Special Forces unit "Havamal" including their top ace, Rod Baltemar.

I would assume that, given that it's a NUNS Special Forces unit, the YF-29B's systems were improved... more engine power, more powerful weapons, tougher armor, etc.

I too would love more stats for the Percival. As it happens, the YF-29B and the YF-30 have quickly become two of my favorite valks and I have barely played any of the game (last I could play, I was still in VF-0s, lol). I do own the DX figures of both now though, and very much enjoy them. As such it is sad that the only data I have to go on about one of them is the base YF-29 data which may not be entirely accurate. This is especially annoying since the YF-30 does have such data, but I guess since it was brand new in the game that was necessary.

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What I'm talking about is a circumstance where the FF-3001/FC2 engine is running with a stock configuration and stock ECU software, but external controllers on the data bus communicate in such a way that the engine is simply never commanded to yield full power. The engine is still capable of that power on paper, but the control software elsewhere in the aircraft is written in such a way that the aircraft is not capable of commanding the ECU to yield that much power.

This kinda feels like a moving target. The point is you don't hammer the engine in because of poor fitting, you need to rewrite software. It is doable. Sure, rewriting Ada code (or C as in F-35 or whatever is used on VFs) is never ease if the engine manufacturer feels uncooperative, but is still doable. Chinese managed to mate what is basically a GE-101 in their unlicensed Flanker copy J-15 (the naval variant of the J-11).

[Edit]: Wrong engine manufacturer and model number corrected and better redacted. In fact I was wrong again, the story was even more amazing than simply mating copy with copy.

Edited by Aries Turner
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If someone wants an example of 2 planes using the EXACT same engine: The PW4056 can be swapped directly between 767's and the 747-400. I know United does it. I would assume the same is true for the PW4060. The only difference is the hydraulic pump hook-up lines--there are 2 sets mounted on the engine---you use one location for the 747, and the other location for the 767. You just swap the plate covering the hole to whichever one isn't being used.

And while we're on the subject---while "trim" is used for military planes, and generally refers to minor changes/tweaks, a permanent large change is a "de-rating". V2528 vs V2525 for example. It's only a software/warranty difference. A V2525 is 3000lbs less thrust, permanently, than the V2528. (or, at least, it's permanent until you pay IAE some money, get it re-rated to 28K, and alter the warranty terms)

I have never known of an "up-rating", the highest-end version is always the "standard", with all other variants being de-rated.

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Now for something different, did anyone notice that Mirage's pistol (seen in episode 22) looks like a Walther PP?

For the most part, handguns and other firearms seem to be one of the things in Macross that haven't really visibly benefitted from OTM. Outside of the original series, where we had caseless machine guns and other fun toys, rifles and pistols seem to be mostly the same as modern weapons.

She's in good company, since SMS seems to issue Glocks to its people, Frontier New UN Forces infantry use a clone of the H&K G36, the security forces in City 7 had AR-15s, and so on...

As such it is sad that the only data I have to go on about one of them is the base YF-29 data which may not be entirely accurate. This is especially annoying since the YF-30 does have such data, but I guess since it was brand new in the game that was necessary.

It's even more frustrating because the YF-29B was The Rival's plane... having no stats would be every bit as frustrating as not having stats for the Draken III.

This kinda feels like a moving target. The point is you don't hammer the engine in because of poor fitting, you need to rewrite software.

Not really. The third approach I mentioned is actually extremely common. Major automakers, for instance, don't write all-new engine software for every single model of car or even every variant of engine. It's actually much easier to put together one or a small handful of engine software packages that adapt how the engine performs based on external inputs from other controllers on the vehicle data bus.

(Considering we've seen that some add-on equipment for VFs is practically plug and play in previous shows, that suggests they're passing vehicle configuration data over the control bus the same way a modern vehicle is.)

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Major automakers, for instance, don't write all-new engine software for every single model of car or even every variant of engine. It's actually much easier to put together one or a small handful of engine software packages that adapt how the engine performs based on external inputs from other controllers on the vehicle data bus.

Lets be clear. Are you finally agreeing that there is no issue for mating YF-30 engines to VF-31 airframes, or even unyoking VF-31 engines, issues other than self-preservation, so happily ignored in every series finale for sheer Alto-hime intense looks, dramatic duels with Shin, Fokker and their respective nemesis or Guld entering history??

Because writers putting a de-rated FF-3001/FC2 instead of an FF-3265AC-4 (wink, wink) or whatever is a BIG flag of what is going to happen at series finale. Or what they misguide us into believing.

For the most part, handguns and other firearms seem to be one of the things in Macross that haven't really visibly benefitted from OTM. Outside of the original series, where we had caseless machine guns and other fun toys, rifles and pistols seem to be mostly the same as modern weapons.

I don't believe that is the case. Caseless munitions have issues that one would picture OTM to overcome but can still fail yet again. Hikaru's rifle may well have been retired from service prematurely. Also, consider a Colt 1911. More than 100 years later, most semiautomatics are basically similar (similar <> same), but built with polymers. Those may look the same, but using OTM materials may not be readily apparent. I expect incredible changes in munitions, however. Then again, consider pure OTM ExGear rifles. And don't forget the retro fashion: Lancia Delta Integrale replicas, OTM made SH-60 replicas for movies, so why not firearm classics too? Edited by Aries Turner
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Lets be clear. Are you finally agreeing that there is no issue for mating YF-30 engines to VF-31 airframes, or even unyoking VF-31 engines, issues other than self-preservation, so happily ignored in every series finale for sheer Alto-hime intense looks, dramatic duels with Shin, Fokker and their respective nemesis or Guld entering history??

That would be the opposite of what I, and almost everyone else in the thread, have been telling you... so the answer is "No".

What we have been repeatedly telling you is that even if the VF-31 is using stock FF-3001/FC2 engines, the engines will still need to be adjusted to accommodate the unique characteristics of the VF-31's airframe. These adjustments could be manual modification of the engines by the ground crew, control restrictions and input adjustment set by the fighter's Ariel II airframe control AI, or both... and would almost certainly result in changes to the maximum output the engine could deliver. The real world truth of it, as related by folks who work on jet engines for a living, is that even minor differences in airframe design can cause measurable changes in engine performance.

Because writers putting a de-rated FF-3001/FC2 instead of an FF-3265AC-4 (wink, wink) or whatever is a BIG flag of what is going to happen at series finale. Or what they misguide us into believing.

Nah, Delta has so far been pretty lame on the mecha front and I don't expect that to change. They made a lot of grandiose promises about how this series would be different from the Macross norm, but so far the only way they've really stepped out of the mold was with the worst writing in Macross history. Everything else has been a by-the-numbers affair. I'm pretty sure we're not gonna see a new Super Prototype at the end of the series. They've barely used the fighters they have.
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For the most part, handguns and other firearms seem to be one of the things in Macross that haven't really visibly benefitted from OTM. Outside of the original series, where we had caseless machine guns and other fun toys, rifles and pistols seem to be mostly the same as modern weapons.

She's in good company, since SMS seems to issue Glocks to its people, Frontier New UN Forces infantry use a clone of the H&K G36, the security forces in City 7 had AR-15s, and so on...

SDFM also had some other really cool original designs that weren't VF's like the those VTOL cargo and passenger planes and of course the good'ol Cat's Eye.

Macross 7 gave us space bikes, sports cars, and police mecha.

Frontier gave us a cool sleek looking interstellar luxury liner.

And Delta has given us a an interstellar Cargo ship, Walkure's Shuttle, and a boring looking transport that Messer took off on.

The older series had more original designs than later series, I guess using a pre existing CG model of something is far more efficient than creating something from the ground up.

And whats up with all the plain looking real cars lately, what happened to those futuristic sci-fi looking ones from DYRL and Mylene's car? Its like everybody said those cars a boring, I want a Nissan Rogue instead. At least the Aerial Knights have been given the cool car treatment.

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That would be the opposite of what I

True.

and almost everyone else in the thread, have been telling you.

False. Someone cited the same engine being interchangeable between 767s ant 747, and even expressly made to be able to do so. I cited a case about mating an engine not made for the given plane, not even with compatible interfaces (J-15). Yet you, and you alone, for reasons unknown, still fight the idea. First mumbling about possible physical incompatibilities. When physical differences were discarded, you moved along to the engine software that looks exactly like a FADEC. Then to avionics software, and later you are now talking about... don't know: Write only PROM modules? Back from the EEPROM? Seriously? It is not me who is not accepting the VF-31 is inferior: I even conceded the point. It is you not accepting the YF-30 is no longer an exclusive model. You'll have your reasons. Even cited some nonsense about alphanumeric codes running out of letters: when/if the IRL F-38 flies, no one would mistake it for the WW2 era Lightning. Just reset the sequence. Edited by Aries Turner
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True.

False. Someone cited the same engine being interchangeable between 767s ant 747, and even expressly made to be able to do so. I cited a case about mating an engine not made for the given plane, not even with compatible interfaces (J-15). Yet you, and you alone, for reasons unknown, still fight the idea. First mumbling about possible physical incompatibilities. When physical differences were discarded, you moved along to the engine software that looks exactly like a FADEC. Then to avionics software, you are talking about... don't know: Write only modules? Seriously? It is not me who is not accepting the VF-31 is inferior: I even conceded the point. It is you not accepting the YF-30 is no longer an exclusive model. You'll had your reasons. Even cited some nonsense about alphanumeric codes running out of letters: when/if the IRL F-38 flies, no one would mistake it for the WW2 era Lightning. Just reset.

I think you got turned around, Seto hasn't been implying any of that. It sounds more like to me that you two are no longer having the same conversation. Seto and I never left the topic about how the YF-30 and the VF-31 have the same engine but with different tuning. We got into some details and examples that might explain why but overall we both have basically admitted there is no stated reason yet and we are just ok with accepting it as it is. You seem to have gone off into some sub-topic based on some of the examples that as far as I can tell Seto isn't even focused on. I know I've kinda moved on from the subject already, I suspect he has as well. There really isn't much more to cover in that topic anymore, the facts are still what they are originally reported as being.

I suggest we let it be now, and at worst, agree to disagree.

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True.False. Someone cited the same engine being interchangeable between 767s ant 747, and even expressly made to be able to do so. I cited a case about mating an engine not made for the given plane, not even with compatible interfaces (J-15). Yet you, and you alone, for reasons unknown, still fight the idea. First mumbling about possible physical incompatibilities. When physical differences were discarded, you moved along to the engine software that looks exactly like a FADEC. Then to avionics software, and later you are now talking about... don't know: Write only PROM modules? Back from the EEPROM? Seriously? It is not me who is not accepting the VF-31 is inferior: I even conceded the point. It is you not accepting the YF-30 is no longer an exclusive model. You'll have your reasons. Even cited some nonsense about alphanumeric codes running out of letters: when/if the IRL F-38 flies, no one would mistake it for the WW2 era Lightning. Just reset the sequence.

I feel like this response just went way off track from what was being discussed. For me as an engineering layperson Seto, Dex, et al.'s points are clear and make a lot of sense, but I don't even know what your contention is anymore.

Edited by aurance
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I agree. Lets the thing rest. Sorry for the emotional answer. I refuse to even go back to the original post to try to remember what was being discussed in the first place.

About the retro issue, SDFM, DYRL, Plus and 7 introduced several futuristic appliances. Frontier and Delta still do, but Frontier sported a retro style right from Ozma OTM Lancia Delta Integrale and the SH-60 for the sequence of Legend of Zero episode. I could even count the Beatrice, but military 8x8 combat pillboxes have few variety in shapes. 6x6 have more leverage. As Ozma's 'Lancia' really isn't and have numerous technological marvels inside, Mirage's Walther PP could be a replica, but more likely just looks like one. You couldn't however completely discard it being a familiar memento, found on Earth by Max, between the ruins.

Edited by Aries Turner
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The older series had more original designs than later series, I guess using a pre existing CG model of something is far more efficient than creating something from the ground up.

And whats up with all the plain looking real cars lately, what happened to those futuristic sci-fi looking ones from DYRL and Mylene's car? Its like everybody said those cars a boring, I want a Nissan Rogue instead. At least the Aerial Knights have been given the cool car treatment.

Apart from Ozma's modified 2003 Lancia Delta HF Integrale, which has clearly been equipped with Milky Road modifications, it's kind of disappointing that they seem to just be reusing CG models of modern cars from other shows. I'm offended beyond words as a powertrain engineer that the f***ing Prius seems to have survived into the spacefuture but not something much more satisfying like a bloody Alfa Romeo 4C Spyder, a Dodge Viper, Mustang GT, etc. Small wonder these people are always going to war if everyone's daily driver is a soulless mess like a Prius... they must be dying for a little excitement, even if it involves explosions.

They have recently started printing new Macross Chronicle binders.

... ... ... please no, not another edition so soon. My wallet cannae take the strain!
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They have recently started printing new Macross Chronicle binders.

Thanks for mailing me that link.

Guys, he's referring to this: http://deagostini.jp/select/detail.php?id=7711

If memory serves, that was a limited print-run mail-in-only item during the "MC Rev. Ed."'s publication run. Apparently they still have some stock left over. (I also find it cute that they're referring to it with the Gundam-esque "Earth Federation Forces Skull Squadron" - maybe that's why they're having trouble selling it [nevermind the price]!).

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Oh, not quite so recent then. I missed it when it was first offered.

Thanks for mailing me that link.

Guys, he's referring to this: http://deagostini.jp/select/detail.php?id=7711

If memory serves, that was a limited print-run mail-in-only item during the "MC Rev. Ed."'s publication run. Apparently they still have some stock left over. (I also find it cute that they're referring to it with the Gundam-esque "Earth Federation Forces Skull Squadron" - maybe that's why they're having trouble selling it [nevermind the price]!).

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Apart from Ozma's modified 2003 Lancia Delta HF Integrale, which has clearly been equipped with Milky Road modifications, it's kind of disappointing that they seem to just be reusing CG models of modern cars from other shows. I'm offended beyond words as a powertrain engineer that the f***ing Prius seems to have survived into the spacefuture but not something much more satisfying like a bloody Alfa Romeo 4C Spyder, a Dodge Viper, Mustang GT, etc. Small wonder these people are always going to war if everyone's daily driver is a soulless mess like a Prius... they must be dying for a little excitement, even if it involves explosions.

If it makes you feel better, it is almost certainly a a Prius lookalike with absolutely nothing of the original powertrain preserved. Just retro styling.
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If it makes you feel better, it is almost certainly a a Prius lookalike with absolutely nothing of the original powertrain preserved. Just retro styling.

Is it really retro styling when cars like the Nissan Rouge or the Honda Insight that appeared in ep1 of Delta technically didn't exist yet in the Macross universe because the Earth got blown to crap before they were supposed to be created. And the cars the surviving earthers had werent Prius's but these 80's style futuristic cars. The SDF-1 had them, Eden had them, Island 7 had them, I think Frontier had them to a certain extent, can't remember exactly but I think I recall seeing an RX-8 a few times.

I totally get Ozma's Delta Integrale because it is a car that existed before the ASS-1 landed on earth, but in order for the likes of the Rouge and Insight to exist in the Macross timeline they would've had to been manufactured at the same time those futuristic cars were in a post rebuild earth after the launch of the first Megaroads.

Another possibility is those old futuristic looking cars are a fading automotive era in Macross by the time of Delta and are being replaced by our real world cars which are actually contemporary to 2067.

Or it could be just Al-Shahal, being modeled after Dubai and having a planet full of fossil fuels.

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Is it really retro styling when cars like the Nissan Rouge or the Honda Insight that appeared in ep1 of Delta technically didn't exist yet in the Macross universe because the Earth got blown to crap before they were supposed to be created. And the cars the surviving earthers had werent Prius's but these 80's style futuristic cars. The SDF-1 had them, Eden had them, Island 7 had them, I think Frontier had them to a certain extent, can't remember exactly but I think I recall seeing an RX-8 a few times.

I totally get Ozma's Delta Integrale because it is a car that existed before the ASS-1 landed on earth, but in order for the likes of the Rouge and Insight to exist in the Macross timeline they would've had to been manufactured at the same time those futuristic cars were in a post rebuild earth after the launch of the first Megaroads.

Another possibility is those old futuristic looking cars are a fading automotive era in Macross by the time of Delta and are being replaced by our real world cars which are actually contemporary to 2067.

Or it could be just Al-Shahal, being modeled after Dubai and having a planet full of fossil fuels.

Yeah, there are DEFINITELY some wrinkles in the timeline there. I still assume they are tracking fashion in some way.

The SDF era was big on sci-fi space cars, presumably because the ASS-1 had rekindled an interest in space and got people watching a lot of old sci-fi again.

The "modern era" of Macross apparently sees a renewed interest in the classic four-wheeled gas guzzlers of the late 80s and early 90s. The Macross Prius is someone's reinterpretation of classic automotive design. In the same way the real-world modern VW Beetle is not a Bug, but is equally clearly inspired by one.

So... alternative-history retro-futuristic motor vehicles?

From an out-of-universe perspective, it is clearly just lazy production done with the CG models they have instead of creating new ones that would make more sense.

Edited by JB0
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in order for the likes of the Rouge and Insight to exist in the Macross timeline they would've had to been manufactured at the same time those futuristic cars were in a post rebuild earth after the launch of the first Megaroads.

Using existing CGI models is only going to make even harder in the future to find ways to retcon their presence in some way. With these, you still can argue those models never entered production in the Macross timeline, but were found in some car design studio, on paper. But that presents us with another problem here: although those drafts could really have been done before Earth destruction, it is clear right from SDFM that OTM had affected car design in unexpected ways, so it stretches credibility that even those designs would have ever been made: the unexpectedly found culture cache would most certainly depict very different car designs.

[Edit]: Found another escape door, as Delta has stated that SDFM is a drama series about actual events. The cars depicted there could have been anachronism right from the era the series was shoot. So OTM may have not influenced car design at all or even widely known to civilian contractors in any way. Anti Unification War, however, could do, but not to the same degree.

Edited by Aries Turner
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The G-36 however is a real bone. As Windermere is stated as being isolated, scarce in resources and arming themselves smuggling cargo, their rifles being an human design is not as much a surprise. Could be even raided NUNS detachment ordinance. Going back from caseless munitions in SDFM to simpler ones is not a problem either. What should be puzzling is the military, other than Hugo Voss made uniforms for the SS, is not prone to fashion, and certainly not retro fashion.

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That is why it is to be expected the swords and glasses to be of windermerean origin. But not the firearms nor the APC. The SV-262 we already know those aren't.

Edit:

Windermere doesn't seem like a place that has quite caught up to the fashion sense of the rest of the galaxy. The guys on the ground might as well be wearing cavalry uniforms from the 1820s.

Sorry, I thought you were meaning something else. Windermereans as feudal agricultural society using foreigner weapons (and ancient technology) to unleash a galaxy wide jihad is maybe a little too obvious a reference. Edited by Aries Turner
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[Edit]: Found another escape door, as Delta has stated that SDFM is a drama series about actual events. The cars depicted there could have been anachronism right from the era the series was shoot. So OTM may have not influenced car design at all or even widely known to civilian contractors in any way. Anti Unification War, however, could do, but not to the same degree.

Actually, I think it's just saying that a drama about Space War 1 has been produced, not that the real world's SDF Macross is such a drama.

It would not be the first such production in-universe.

Mylene and Basara starred in "The Lynn Minmay Story", which was a wildly inaccurate piece of recruitment propaganda masquerading as a documentary.

I believe Frontier's first opening was supposed to exist in-universe as the opening to an unnamed drama series about Space War 1. This drama was clearly not SDF Macross, simply because SDF doesn't use Triangler as an opening.

And of course, there's always the elephant in the room known as DYRL. And just to confuse things further, there have been debates about whether our DYRL and Macross's DYRL are actually the same movie. The possibility exists that their DYRL is significantly different than our's.

That said, Kawamori's stated several times over the years that what we're seeing isn't the "real" version of events.

We always get a dramatization, because it is more entertaining(and frees everyone involved from having to adhere perfectly to a strict continuity).

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