Article by Mr. K -- "Why are Arcadia products so expensive"

[no3Ljm]

The SpeakerPODcast weighs in on Mr.K's blog post.

http://www.macrossworld.com/speakerpodcast-ep-27-an-open-letter-from-mr-k/

Listening now.

[Tochiro]

Nice. just listened to it.

Thanks! There's a dedicated thread in the series forum if you have any questions or feedback! ()

[sixtybucks]

Listened to it and very good observations!

Arcadia strategy seems to be valid if they do:

High quality

• engineering/design: Models with sound engineering decisions. Things that even if they pass QC, they will last long and won't break after 1 transformation. Solid mechanisms and parts..
• gimmicks: part of the magic and wow factor that we love and help us justify the premium prices.
• QC: Again, when shelling $300-$400 for it, every last detail has to be spot on.

Push the envelope mentality

• They said something like being "market research for Bandai". That could work when Bandai is only goes for safe stuff, and people who can't afford Arcadia anymore might get their chance if Bandai decides to mass produce a rare model for a better price.

Someone asked in the podcast "but are they quality?"... this strategy might fall apart if Arcadia can't keep their high quality for a high price promise. If you pay big bucks and you still get crappy joints and misaligned tampo... well... the only reason that remains is that you want to support they cause and keep those (excellent but not perfect) models coming.

Maybe we shouldn't think about paying for that perfect paint application, yadda yadda, but that we are paying to keep the flame burning. Would we suffer more with a little scratch on the paint or with Arcadia gone?

[wolfx]

The problem I have with this whole interview is Arcadia is justifying their prices due to their supposed high QC standards. And they are serving a small niche market, i.e.: high-end collector's product. But the question is, as Renato (i think) , mentioned in the podcast, is it quality? Did they deliver their alleged high standards of quality? Never got an Arcadia valk so I can't personally comment. But based on the feedback i'm seeing in the forums, it doesn't look like they are delivering even on the QC. This makes their asking price less justifiable. If i'm going to pay premium prices, i will be expecting premium merchandise which should be perfect as far as I am concerned. For example, when I buy stuff from Hot Toys, Side Show Collectibles, Sentinel, Mastermind Creations, etc, I will know that I'll get something that I will be extremely satisfied with and worth every single cent I'm throwing at them. With Arcadia, i'm still not getting this level of consumer confidence. And thus unfortunately i'm still not one of their customers.

My 2 cents.

[VF5SS]

For example, when I buy stuff from Hot Toys, Side Show Collectibles, Sentinel, Mastermind Creations, etc, I will know that I'll get something that I will be extremely satisfied with and worth every single cent I'm throwing at them.

I think you're ignoring the number of times one of those products does go wrong. For example, Sentinel's Blodia (and variants) is prone to having its backpack fuel tanks break off because of how tight the ball-joint connection is for each tank. Also, their FightinGear aren't really up to snuff for their price.

http://www.collectiondx.com/toy_review/2015/hurricane_polymar

As for Hot Toys? Well, never buy one that uses rubber body suits or seamless limbs if you intend to keep it for long:

http://toyhaven.blogspot.com/2011/09/hot-toy-collecting-tip-2-what-to-do.html

Edited September 11, 2015 by VF5SS

[Bolt]

Products go wrong. I think we understand that. At the cost of Arcadia products, we want perfection.

[no3Ljm]

Even with Arcadia we will not get any 'perfect' toys since all of this is mass-produced. If I want perfection, for sure they will charge more, and I will need to pay more. We're not seeking for perfection, we're seeking justification to what we pay for.

Just my 2 cents for this matter and roughly Y35000 for VF-0S.

[Bolt]

I'm not saying we're gonna get perfection. Just want.

I'm happy with my Yammies they're beautiful. Can't see spending so much more for a slightly "better" version. At this point , the only Arcadia I will fork out the dough is the YF-19..

We all have different opinions on the how and why of justifying ( or not), paying for expensive VF's and such.

Ultimately I wish Arcadia would produce something different and th 0D is a good start.

[SuperSenpai]

It's impossible to have perfection on mass produced items. You're going to have some failures. The issue is whether the failure rate is high enough (and consistent in character) to warrant a corrective action for the manufacturing process.

I think we won't really know the level of QC unless we have actual statistics regarding failure rates, and the criteria that the QC process is intended to measure. Otherwise it's all just anecdotal evidence and conjecture. The person who got the valk with a broken joint thinks Arcadia's QC is crap, whereas the one who got one that works fine will disagree.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that the word "quality" can mean a few different things. From a manufacturing process perspective, quality is referring to a product that is made consistently from batch to batch without variation, that meets specs for performance and/or functionality, and to an acceptably low rate of failure. This what what QC is checking. It doesn't necessarily mean that it will meet an individual customer's perception of quality.

Edited September 11, 2015 by SuperSenpai

[no3Ljm]

I'm not saying we're gonna get perfection. Just want.

I'm happy with my Yammies they're beautiful. Can't see spending so much more for a slightly "better" version. At this point , the only Arcadia I will fork out the dough is the YF-19..

We all have different opinions on the how and why of justifying ( or not), paying for expensive VF's and such.

Ultimately I wish Arcadia would produce something different and th 0D is a good start.

Ok, so first of all, don't think of this as a negative reply but more like adding some opinions on the discussion. Hence the emojis.

Actually, we both have the same opinion for sure regarding justification. You said that you want perfection for what Arcadia cost is. My take on that is also the same. Somehow I need perfection too since I'm paying premium price on these. And since I know that it's not going to be 100% perfect, I just wish that I will get what I paid for. If it gets broken down the line or just right outside the box, there's really nothing I can do since they don't extend their warranties outside Japan shores. We can't just ask for refunds nor replacement parts. Basically the moment we pay for this and get the items, we're already bound to the agreement that there's nothing they can do outside Japan. We're already screwed the moment we receive a defective item.

And yes, I'm happy too with my first Yamato valks which are the Hikaru 1S and 1A. Even though I got them with cracked shoulders.

The point is, we can say whatever we want, we can wish whatever we want, we can compare them to different companies if we want to, and we can bash them all day long for their QC ways. Sad to say but that's how it is nowadays for companies who makes the toys we want. It's either we support them or just stay away from them. But always remember and keep in mind that they really DON'T CATER or target audience outside Japan. And we're just happy that there's some online stores that sells the goods outside Japan.

[no3Ljm]

It's impossible to have perfection on mass produced items. You're going to have some failures. The issue is whether the failure rate is high enough (and consistent in character) to warrant a corrective action for the manufacturing process.

I think we won't really know the level of QC unless we have actual statistics regarding failure rates, and the criteria that the QC process is intended to measure. Otherwise it's all just anecdotal evidence and conjecture. The person who got the valk with a broken joint thinks Arcadia's QC is crap, whereas the one who got one that works fine will disagree.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that the word "quality" can mean a few different things. From a manufacturing process perspective, quality is referring to a product that is made consistently from batch to batch without variation, that meets specs for performance and/or functionality, and to an acceptably low rate of failure. This what what QC is checking. It doesn't necessarily mean that it will meet an individual customer's perception of quality.

True and I agree.

I guess, by this time, Arcadia should re-think they're strategies and factory choices. Let's just say as a test bed for this is hire a new production factory, pull out an old mold such as the VF-1 or even the Super/Strike Packs so the cost will be minimum. Let them manufacture it. QC it. And compare it to the ones produced by the existing factory. If it's the same output then use them again for another test such as a VF-1 reissue. I'm not saying they should do this at the same time. Let them do it slowly... but surely. I guess, we're going somewhere for sure if they try to change their attitude on ditching a factory who produces products inconsistently.

Anyways, I wish Arcadia a good R&R and rethink everything else. Go Team Arcadia!

[Bolt]

I certainly wish Arcadia the best. And I am looking forward to their future releases. SV Nora please!

I also made it a point to say I don't expect perfection even if that's what I want😉

Funny thing is I am wondering about the Japnese market. Are they eating up everything from Arcadia?

For some reason I think so..

[Mommar]

One of the things Mr K said that intrigues me is that they haven't been informed of some of the QC issues we've brought up. Are some of these things to minor it's only happening to a few people in Japan and to us on the boards or is there some sort of cultural thing where when something goes wrong the Japanese won't bitch-out the company like we will do here. (I mean that in a positive way, I think we have a right to tell a company everything we don't like.)

Also, QC changed. It used to be he would travel to the facility where they were being made. Now they just spot-check some boxes at the office. That's a HUGE difference when before you could yell at a manager right there on the floor instead of sending an e-mail or making a call from your office overseas.

[Loop]

From what I remember, Yamato had to send some employees to oversee the QC and build. I'm guessing that is not happening anymore.

[wmkjr]

Maybe it's just that as we are centralized as a group, being vocal to the QC issues let's more people become aware of said issues and say "Hey! I got the same issues!" and adds to the encounter rate. Compared to someone not on here and just got their valk with QC issues, he's on his own and not able to let anyone know. Maybe they can use social media to vent but unless they have followers that like Macross or collecting to help retweet it wouldn't help address the issue.

What would be the best way to contact Arcadia about the QC issues without having them lose face? Arcadia's customer service email? Being outside of Japan, would they even consider problems encountered and address them or just brush it off as "Sorry for that happening, non domestic purchases are buy at your own risk". How about via social media? I've noticed a few postings/retweets on his twitter about some of the QC issues but not too many. Maybe if a lot of people start describing and posting pics of the QC issues on Arcadia's twitter it could be addressed better or is it a cultural no-no to talk negatively like mentioned earlier?

[Dimis]

Maybe it's just that as we are centralized as a group, being vocal to the QC issues let's more people become aware of said issues and say "Hey! I got the same issues!" and adds to the encounter rate. Compared to someone not on here and just got their valk with QC issues, he's on his own and not able to let anyone know. Maybe they can use social media to vent but unless they have followers that like Macross or collecting to help retweet it wouldn't help address the issue.

What would be the best way to contact Arcadia about the QC issues without having them lose face? Arcadia's customer service email? Being outside of Japan, would they even consider problems encountered and address them or just brush it off as "Sorry for that happening, non domestic purchases are buy at your own risk". How about via social media? I've noticed a few postings/retweets on his twitter about some of the QC issues but not too many. Maybe if a lot of people start describing and posting pics of the QC issues on Arcadia's twitter it could be addressed better or is it a cultural no-no to talk negatively like mentioned earlier?

But if the fans in Japan are able to get customer service and ultimately all are kept happy why would they be posting about issues?!? Look at Amazon. I am sure that everyone has had one bad experience by now, but they go out of their way to please their customers that it seems as though no one has ever encountered issues!

[VALKYRIE ACE PILOT]

OHH Come on Mr.K !!! Let`s be honest:

Arcadia Valkyries are so expensive because YOU want to take advantage of nerdish fandom´s hype, love and passion for Macross....That`s all

[Mommar]

From what I remember, Yamato had to send some employees to oversee the QC and build. I'm guessing that is not happening anymore.

Exactly, I think this is a HUGE reason for any QC issues we're seeing... minus the awful ankle design which is all their poor engineering.

Maybe it's just that as we are centralized as a group, being vocal to the QC issues let's more people become aware of said issues and say "Hey! I got the same issues!" and adds to the encounter rate. Compared to someone not on here and just got their valk with QC issues, he's on his own and not able to let anyone know. Maybe they can use social media to vent but unless they have followers that like Macross or collecting to help retweet it wouldn't help address the issue.

What would be the best way to contact Arcadia about the QC issues without having them lose face? Arcadia's customer service email? Being outside of Japan, would they even consider problems encountered and address them or just brush it off as "Sorry for that happening, non domestic purchases are buy at your own risk". How about via social media? I've noticed a few postings/retweets on his twitter about some of the QC issues but not too many. Maybe if a lot of people start describing and posting pics of the QC issues on Arcadia's twitter it could be addressed better or is it a cultural no-no to talk negatively like mentioned earlier?

We know legally Arcadia can't address issues for our problems but it would be nice if they could at least tally how many QC issues are found regardless of region, they don't need to acknowledge where it came from.

[wmkjr]

I'm guessing they would post the issues so that others are made aware of them when handling them for the first time. Good point about the fans in Japan and that's good for them but it still would not address the fact of QC issues from the factory. As for customer service that's fine for the people in Japan as I expect Arcadia will take care of them. But what about the rest of us? Does anyone know if they'll take care of exports or tried to get replacement parts? Amazon has excellent customer service as I've had to call them up about wrong shipped items and they shipped out the correct items right then and there. I've never tried to contact Arcadia's customer service but with the whole licensing issues I wonder if they even can help.

That would be nice if Arcadia did that Mommar, a domestic vs export QC issues comparison. Maybe they already have.

edit: Sorry, all of the above was typed before your reply Mommar except the bottom. Also, it sucks that they couldn't send people to the factories more frequently to oversee the builds.

Edited September 14, 2015 by wmkjr

[valhary]

I believe Mr. K thinks as far as macross fans want

but doubt he can decide the products price

his work is like project chief so their functions are the design and supervision of the production

so the final price is chosen by other company areas that obviously want the highest profit possible

[Mommar]

That would be nice if Arcadia did that Mommar, a domestic vs export QC issues comparison. Maybe they already have.

edit: Sorry, all of the above was typed before your reply Mommar except the bottom. Also, it sucks that they couldn't send people to the factories more frequently to oversee the builds.

No, I don't mean a comparison between Domestic versus export, I mean tally all QC issues regardless of where they come from, just don't acknowledge some come from abroad. The info is still valid even if we aren't an actual market.

[wmkjr]

Got it now. Thanks!

[takatoys]

How much do you think a single VF-OS cost to manufacture? After paying the designers, molds, assambly workers plus the licensing, I calculate each valk cost no more than 60 dollars. Remember, there are not electronic parts or fancy materials. It's all plastic and metal.

[Mommar]

How much do you think a single VF-OS cost to manufacture? After paying the designers, molds, assambly workers plus the licensing, I calculate each valk cost no more than 60 dollars. Remember, there are not electronic parts or fancy materials. It's all plastic and metal.

How are you calculating this???

[takatoys]

How are you calculating this???

I am guessing comparing to other toys in the market who are similar in design and have a much lower retail value. But we will never know for sure how much this toy really cost to make.

[EXO]

You have to factor the fact that Arcadia uses top Manufacturers... the rising cost of of those manufacturers and materials, outbidding people that want the same scheduled manufacturing, the cost of running a business in Japan, packaging (including designers and packing).

Just look at the cost of similarly sized third party transformers with similar quality and then imagine a lower production number . Yes, the people that buy Third Party Transformers do outnumber Macross fans that buy high end product and then imagine if those people pay licenses. In fact compare those 3P transformers toys and then imagine how many times they get to reissue them and then rerelease them in different colors without changing the mold.

[takatoys]

I forgot. The mold of the VF-0A is identical to the VF-OS, except the head right? Why the price increase then? It is because the 0S is more popular and more fans will buy it, that's for sure.

[wmkjr]

They are both the same MSRP. The discount% from each retailer is less for the 0S than the 0A. Why the decrease? Who knows? Maybe like you said because he's more popular.

Edited September 14, 2015 by wmkjr

[neoexcaliber]

The podcast did mention that the Japanese buyers could try to ask for a replacement part but the companies are not obligated to go out of their way to provide after-sales service. I think the Japanese buyers are in a similar boat except they've accepted the fact that they might not be able to get their QC problems addressed. Buy it and shut up seems to sum it up quite well.

Edited September 15, 2015 by neoexcaliber

[EXO]

I forgot. The mold of the VF-0A is identical to the VF-OS, except the head right? Why the price increase then? It is because the 0S is more popular and more fans will buy it, that's for sure.

Pretty much I guess. You can think of it as a business decision or a conspiracy, depending on how angry you are. But it's still far from the $60 price point you originally thought about.

[wolfx]

You have to factor the fact that Arcadia uses top Manufacturers... the rising cost of of those manufacturers and materials, outbidding people that want the same scheduled manufacturing, the cost of running a business in Japan, packaging (including designers and packing).

Just look at the cost of similarly sized third party transformers with similar quality and then imagine a lower production number . Yes, the people that buy Third Party Transformers do outnumber Macross fans that buy high end product and then imagine if those people pay licenses. In fact compare those 3P transformers toys and then imagine how many times they get to reissue them and then rerelease them in different colors without changing the mold.

License costing aside and based solely on manufacturing numbers alone, where are you getting the numbers that 3rd party TFs number more than Arcadia valk's production numbers? To note that 3rd party TFs are not sold in any major outlets and mostly only distribute from specialty hobby shops, but Arcadia is sold in all major (Japanese) outlets and online stores.

I have friends who have factories and are in the manufacturing business, and although not comparable to a high-end transforming toy, they doubt this story when I told them about it. Basically a huge majority of the manufacturing costs boils down to the number of parts. More parts = more injection molds = more costs. More parts = more complex assembly line = more costs. A valk has comparable no. of parts to a high-end transforming toy thus a 3rd party transformer comparison. People kept saying that Arcadia is a small company, which is also comparable to a 3rd party transformer company.

Taking that into consideration, i'm of the opinion that their factory is charging too high a cost and taking Yamato, and now Arcadia, for a ride. They should get a new factory. If 3rd Party Transformer companies can change factories for every other release fairly easily without imposing costs on customers, i don't see why Arcadia can't. This eliminates Mr K's argument for not changing factories due to re-training costs.

[SuperSenpai]

HLJ has the 0S and 0A listed at the same retail price, just with different discounts applied. So technically not a price increase. I would guess that the 0A sales paid for most of the development and initial tooling for the molds, so the cost to make the 0S is likely cheaper.

[Bolt]

Interesting argument Wokfx.

But is it possible that other manufacturers/factories might not be able to produce the "quality" expected? Cheaper may mean less quality amongst these factories..

I don't collect TF's so I can't speak to their quality output from third parties..

[wolfx]

Interesting argument Wokfx.

But is it possible that other manufacturers/factories might not be able to produce the "quality" expected? Cheaper may mean less quality amongst these factories..

I don't collect TF's so I can't speak to their quality output from third parties..

I collect some 3rd party TFs...and i can vouch that their quality are top notch, especially from known companies like MMC. They may have a few rare lemons but even those will get replacement parts easily without question. They are also proactive in getting customer feedback by showing prototypes and quite open to fixing the final release if people comment about proportions and colours. Granted I think not many of these toys have much if any tampo printing on them. But their price point does make you want to compare with Arcadia.

[Gakken85]

Hot Toys QA isn't amazing. Considering it's just a doll body with clothes on it. There are always issues. Ripped seems. Cheap paint. All their R&D goes into the sculpt of the head for 70% of their toys.

Anyway - my question is why can't they use the same factories as Takara for their MP line? I don't think Arcadia's transformation are that much more complex than an MP car.

I never transformed the 19, as it seemed fairly complex but the VF-0 is pretty much a swing bar with moving arms and legs.

Takara also has great QA (Not hasbro) as they do smaller runs.

If they can produce an Optimus prime which has a lot of parts, metal, and a fairly intricate transformation and put it on market for $140 bucks... where is that other $100 dollars coming from for Arcadia when you roughly have the same amount of plastic and size?

Idk. I appreciate Mr. K's passion to try to explain it to the fandom, especially when it's something he has little control over, but I don't really buy that they are exploring all options.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Gakken85