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Rewatching 7...Still hate Chie Kajiura's singing.


Raptor
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Yeah, but they do that for AKB48 and Vocaloids too, and those are only "music" in the loosest definition.

I'm not sure if you're trollollolling or just missing the point.

Yes, glow sticks are standard for Jpop and anime music events (but are avoided by rock and indie music fans).

No, your comparison isn't valid because AKB are a huge group with millions in marketing to the point that they warp music sales charts and are a household name. They are also the current thing.

Chie was in an anime 20 years ago and did 2 solo albums. She plans her own events and promotions and hasn't been a visible presence in the music scene for over a decade. So I'd say it's a much bigger deal when 13,000 fans remember and like her music enough to have custom colored glowsticks ready.

Musical tastes are subjective and of course ppl are free to like what they like. My point is that her Japanese fans certainly don't seem to have been disappointed by her songs and that there aren't likely to be any solo members of AKB48 that anyone will remember 20 years from now.

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No. I'm not comparing them. I'm simply stating that glow sticks are standard far for pretty much female singers with largely male fanbases.

Yes, I am trolling slightly :) I knew that criticizing Uta-Mylene is a controversial topic here.

Edited by Raptor
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Out of curiosity, are you fluent in Japanese?

I mean, out of all the songs she does I like Dakedo, Baby, while the solo version (episode 48) of Holy Lonely Night is OK, and Kimi ni Todoke is also fine as long as it's not acapella.

But to me there has been something slightly off, to my ears at least.

For the record, my comment about her regretting doing Macross 7 and being pigeonholed comes from her Japanese Wikipedia article, which quotes her as (in fairly recent years, IIRC) stating "I don't hate Macross 7..." which just seemed disingenuous. To me it sounds like "At first I wish I hadn't done it, but now I'm mature enough to realize that I shouldn't alienate myself from my fanbase."

Considering the story, I think making the female lead 14 years old was also absolutely absurd. You would know why if you've spent any significant time around 14 year-olds as an adult. 16/17/19 from the original show and movie were already bad enough.

On another note, if you ignore all the repetitive or silly parts of the TV series and concentrate more on the movies and OVA, it's much easier to say M7 as a whole was a good series.... but the fact of the matter is that the TV series should have been half as long and should have had Kawamori at the helm instead of as a "supervisor." Then again, Frontier could have been better too, and Zero could have made more sense... they have yet to really best DYRL or Plus, and it's been 20 years.

(brb... need more bourbon, and can't remember the last point I was trying to make...)

Edited by Raptor
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The directing and writing was terrible, it didn't do anything to improve the Macross canon, the mechanical design is awful, the production values were down-right criminal.

I agree that the directing, writing and production value leave things to be desired, but your wrong on it not improving canon.

The creative staff behind M7 had the courage to not emulate the concepts of SDFM, but actually develop them, expand upon them, and take them toward one logical conclusion. The direction that they took those concepts aren't everyone's cup of tea, but one can say the same thing about how Star Trek DS9 is the ultimate evolution of the concepts behind Star Trek and not every ST fan likes that series and the direction it took.

M7 mechanical designs are some of the best that have been produced for Macross. I can appreciate that you don't like the details or whatever about them (and that's a fair opinion). However, when viewed artistically, specifically in terms of economy of line and ease of understanding the shapes and pieces of the designs, they are the pinnacle of VF designs (contrast the line-art of the VF-19 Kai with the mess that is the SV-51 to get a better idea).

Another way to look at it is: almost every game/manga/anime produced after Macross 7 used aspects of its story and mechanical designs. Some *cough* Macross F *cough* downright copied them.

Considering the story, I think making the female lead 14 years old was also absolutely absurd. You would know why if you've spent any significant time around 14 year-olds as an adult. 16/17/19 from the original show and movie were already bad enough.

Quite ageist, aren't we?

I guess you haven't heard of Malala Yousafzai.

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I wonder when the web manager will close this thread. The title includes "hate", and the members may have negative feelings gradually.

And no one will be able to talk about the last Mylene Night in February in the near future...

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I understand what you mean about the mechanical design, but I was under the impression that all the UN Spacy designs existed prior to M7's production (either from toys, games, manga, models, or M Plus), and what I mean to say was that the if you considered how, to put it bluntly, shitty the Protodelvin designs were, the overall mechanical design was bad. Only Sivil came close to being a decent design, but really, nipple arrows? What purpose do they serve? I did like the detail that her cheek stripes weren't actually part of her clothing (they disappeared when the was unconscious), but Gavil's design was downright heinous, and the others weren't much better.

The Protodelvin VF mecha designs didn't make any sense, either... if they used modified VF-14s, they should have just added the Spiritia suckers, repainted them and called it a day. At least that way they would have looked a lot cooler.

Not ageist, I just think it's bad directing at best to use a character that young if you are incapable of understanding and realistically expressing the developmental level of a character that age (and they didn't even explain why she wasn't in school and had her own sports car). Remember the first episode where Mylene pilots a Valkyrie? She kills a guy, worse, a brainwashed guy, and doesn't even bat an eyelash. One of my biggest problems with the directing was how poorly they portrayed the human cost of the battles, or the danger of combat. Oh no, Physica died! Who cares? They just killed 30 VF-11 pilots in the same episode and never even bothered to mention them! Even Docker's death takes literally two seconds... even though Gamlin managed to survive a vastly more deadly-looking crash because he has Plot Armor.

And don't forgot how the first 2/3rds of the series were almost exclusively Planet Dance, which is the weakest FB song (IMO), despite the huge amount of excellent songs that didn't even appear in the series.

And then there's Flower Girl... if you have the budget to animate and voice a character in every single episode who literally does nothing until the last episode, who's only purpose in the context of the show is a giant cocktease (Will she be able give Basara the bouquet? Yes! But not in any way that really matters!), you have enough budget to animate and voice scenes that provide context for what's happening in the the show, justify something that made no sense, or at least provide something entertaining to long-time Macross fans.


I wonder when the web manager will close this thread. The title includes "hate", and the members may have negative feelings gradually.
And no one will be able to talk about the last Mylene Night in February in the near future...

反論なんてくだらねえぜ! 俺の意見を聞け!

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The directing and writing was terrible, it didn't do anything to improve the Macross canon, the mechanical design is awful, the production values were down-right criminal.

But it had the music, characters, and Macross...

At the risk of delving too far off into a critique of the series, I'd argue that by far one of the only things that truly impressed me about Macross 7 was the mechanical design. Not all of it, but there is enough there to enjoy. I understand many critics of Macross 7 haven't been able to divorce the mechanical design from the absurdness of the series, but I have and find a lot to admire. The VF-19F/S Excalibur, the VF-17D/S Nightmare, the VF-11C Thunderbolt/Protect Armor, the ships and Macross 7 itself are all solid designs. The Varauta are fun villain mecha that were kinda original as Oni-inspired mecha for the Macross universe. Even the Sound Force garbage and silly Jamming Birds do have some aesthetic value as Macross mechanical designs, albeit they are not much use for anything else. I'd say give them another chance and use your imagination to picture them in stories outside Macross 7, which obviously would have existed in the broader Macross universe. There is much to enjoy.

On another note, if you ignore all the repetitive or silly parts of the TV series and concentrate more on the movies and OVA, it's much easier to say M7 as a whole was a good series.... but the fact of the matter is that the TV series should have been half as long and should have had Kawamori at the helm instead of as a "supervisor." Then again, Frontier could have been better too, and Zero could have made more sense... they have yet to really best DYRL or Plus, and it's been 20 years.

I will agree that Macross 7 as a series was plagued by an awful lot of filler episodes and uninteresting repetition. As the material was written the series would have been better served as a 13-episode OVA. However, I will say that if the show was written differently, it could have been a very epic 49 episode series that properly explored a lot of the Macross mythos in interesting and satisfying ways. The Zentran and Meltran should have been more present and explored, the Varauta/SA/Protodevlin could have been completely reimagined into a far more compelling antagonist, the Protoculture could have been a much larger presence written with a more engaging mystery, etc. The problem wasn't length of the Macross 7 series, just not enough interesting material as it was actually written and released.

One of my biggest problems with the directing was how poorly they portrayed the human cost of the battles, or the danger of combat. Oh no, Physica died! Who cares? They just killed 30 VF-11 pilots in the same episode and never even bothered to mention them! Even Docker's death takes literally two seconds... even though Gamlin managed to survive a vastly more deadly-looking crash because he has Plot Armor.

Now this is an opinion I can endorse. IMO, the emotional stakes in Macross 7 don't even register and the reason for that is the poorly mishandled tone clashing with the subject matter (parody/war). I've said it before, hundreds of ships and Valkyries are lost in Macross 7 but none of those lost lives are written to mean anything. In contrast, a Macross Frontier episode features one ship destroyed by the Vajra and it feels like a crushing loss to both characters and the audience. Genuine emotional engagement. Even name characters that perish like Physica or Kinryu are written so thinly and without any foresight there is nothing for the audience to anchor our empathy. This is a fair criticism.

I'm really glad I wasnt hanging out on the MW boards back in those days. Im my experience, in the pre-internet mid-90's Austalia, when we were importing the VHS volumes and (unknowlingly) buying the SM bootleg versions of the soundtracks, the handful of Macross fans I knew didnt hate on the series at all. Everyone admitted that it was aimed at a younger audience, but enjoyed the music and character designs and Max scenes so much that we didnt mind.

Fast forward and, after 12 years in Japan, I have only met fans that love them some M7. Maybe the ones that dont like it simply dont watch it or else hide out in 2chan, I can't say. The series gets a lot of love here though,as does Chie. Did the audience find her singing accomplished or entertaining? Since her mere appearance on stage, 20 years on, can cause 13,000 fans to pull out pink glow sticks in anticipation, I'd hazard a guess and say YES.

I'd say we're all well served to remember the reason for the heated debates of the old days. Much of the fervent hate for Macross 7 came about because of the love fans have for the original Macross series. In a vacuum, Macross 7 would have few haters because it'd be easy to simply dismiss; no stakes involved. But Macross 7 doesn't exist in a vacuum; it's a sequel to an animated war drama that captured the hearts and minds of a generation. Old school fans were emotionally invested and felt for the original series only to see Macross 7 treat the franchise like a joke. Reminding folks that the first Macross series was originally imagined as parody doesn't help ardent fans who became attached to the more grounded and dramatic SDF Macross that WAS released and adored. I don't agree with the way people hated on Macross 7 to the detriment of those that wanted to discuss it, but I won't dismiss the detractors when I know why they loved the original.

Edited by Mr March
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You guys fail to recognize that Chie was playing a backup singer in a rock band.

Where as May'n and Megumi were singing as Idol pop stars.

In fact Chie is the only singer not being story lined as a Idol pop singer.

Remember Mylene had to work and getting song power.

All in all, comparing the singers. It's An Apple to a line of Oranges.

Disregarding artistic opinion, in the technical sense, Chie as a ton of Range.

Even now, she has better technical abilities then 1/2 of the America pop singers.

That's the technical side, you can hate it all you want.

But as far as the music goes, she's got tremendous vocal skill.

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Now this is an opinion I can endorse. IMO, the emotional stakes in Macross 7 don't even register and the reason for that is the poorly mishandled tone clashing with the subject matter (parody/war). I've said it before, hundreds of ships and Valkyries are lost in Macross 7 but none of those lost lives are written to mean anything. In contrast, a Macross Frontier episode features one ship destroyed by the Vajra and it feels like a crushing loss to both characters and the audience. Genuine emotional engagement. Even name characters that perish like Physica or Kinryu are written so thinly and without any foresight there is nothing for the audience to anchor our empathy. This is a fair criticism.

Even as a big M7 fan, I concede that point. The absolutely tremendous losses are trivialized. Not only does that in and of itself feel "wrong", but IMO, more emphasis on the loss of so many lives would have really improved the series, adding a lot more emotional aspects - as well as showing Basara being steadfast in his pacifist stance despite it all, an even greater contrast when the grim reality is painted for what it is.

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I have to admit I wasn't a fan of Kajiura's singing when I first watched Macross 7, due to the unfavorable comparison to Fukuyama's pipes (now that's Anima Spiritia), but her voice really grew on me over the past few years. Her few solo parts in Virgin Story were great and really enhanced that song.

When it comes to holding her own in a duet with Fukuyama, though, I thought Mika Okudoi did a much better job.

Edited by Zhou
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You guys fail to recognize that Chie was playing a backup singer in a rock.

No she wasn't. Mylene was the female vocalist, not a backup singer. She was implied to be Basara's equal as far as FB was concerned.

I totally forgot Docket survived. I was still researching the last episode as I posted.

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In a vacuum, Macross 7 would have few haters because it'd be easy to simply dismiss; no stakes involved. But Macross 7 doesn't exist in a vacuum; it's a sequel to an animated war drama that captured the hearts and minds of a generation. Old school fans were emotionally invested and felt for the original series only to see Macross 7 treat the franchise like a joke.

My problem with this idea is that it neglects the fact that even the original series didn't exist in a vacuum. It was one of dozens of shows of its type and one whose success and notoriety came from the elements a lot of the western (i.e. Robotech derived) fan base seem less interested on emphasizing. The original series did not live and die by how much of a "war drama" is was, and to be honest for the most part it's a pretty light affair as far as war dramas go. In my opinion there were many shows that preceded and succeeded Macross that handles a lot of those elements much better Not that it excuses any flaws of follows up, but the way people regard the original series have made it irreproachable for criticism and has shunted a lot of negativity on the later installments. This is in the face of how increasingly minor SDF Macross has become in the grand scheme of the franchise. At the time at which Macross 7 came out, there was very little franchise for it to "make a joke" of and I believe it's the kind of sequel that treats its predecessor with the right kind of loving respect.

Now pretending a mediocre show like Mospeada is a Macross sequel? That's the real joke.

post-1819-0-38647300-1390497996.jpg

And here's my meager attempt to stay on topic I just want to remind everyone... SEVEN DAYS...

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The original Macross was basically a product of the two booms: the Japanese idol boom and the real robot boom.

Personally I thought the most interesting things about the original series (besides the KICKASS TRANSFORMING ROBOTS) was that the Zentreadi are likeable, interesting (albeit physically impossible) villains, the concept of a makeshift city built inside of a giant warship, and the ideas about the power of culture. And of course, the concept of the entire Earth being glassed despite the war almost being over was something most shows wouldn't do.

Although to be fair, the TV Zentreadi DID have a culture in sorts... it was just that the culture was all about fighting the Supervision Army (...what ever happened to them?). If you have language, you have culture. It also seemed unrealistic that with the same genes and the same cognitive ability they didn't develop music. But I guess we can assume that the gender segregation, constant combat, and strict regulations was enough to prevent real culture from developing.

Honestly, the story about the main characters isn't that interesting. For example, the idea that Minmay would become so overwhelmingly and universally popular among both the people on Macross and the Zentreadi only makes sense in the cultural context of 1980's Japan. There were so many potential stories about SWI that could have been explored, especially in regards to the people living on the ship, that would have been even more interesting than the plot about the main characters. How did they build (and rebuild, and rebuild) the city in the ship? How was it laid out? The city was way too big to have fit in a strip of land less than a kilometer long, so was it multi-layered? What did Minmay's family have to do in order to keep a restaurant running with no fresh food deliveries? Where the hell did Kakizaki's steak come from? Did they build a school on the ship? They have currency with an M stamped on it, so who minted it? Just how desperate did the UN Spacy have to get before they started recruiting 16 year-olds and letting them fly billion-dollar aircraft? How did the million or so people on the surface survive the bombardment?

And more importantly, what happened during the two-year time skip?

On the other hand, the Zentreadi's conflict with the Supervision Army was far too vague. And how does the Zentreadi military function with no one capable of maintenance or logistics? How did the use of clones effect operations?

Finally, I know the galaxy is a big place, but considering it is implied that there are millions and millions of Zentreadi ships left (and what about the Supervision Army?), why is it that we only have one canon reference (AFAIK) to non-cultured Zentreadi (Fleet of the Strongest Women) and only one (non-game) canon reference to renegade Zentreadi (Plus). Even the games mostly have you fighting Zentreadi renegades terrorists with VFs. Global mentions that the Zentreadi and Supervision Army are likely still fighting as we speak, so what happens when another Macross meets a Zentreadi fleet? That would have been more interesting than space devils or bugs with lasers in their heads.


I don't get it. :huh:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Self-sealing_stem_bolt

Google is your friend.

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I'm not necessarily suggesting that they should be the primary antagonists of a series, but they should at least mention the issue. The whole reason they started the colonization effort (which is the whole reason for the M7 and M25 fleets existing) was to prevent the human race from being wiped out if the Zentreadi show back up again.

Or they could have had the Supervision Army as antagonists... I don't buy the whole "the supervision army was protodeviln-brainwashed zentreadi and protocuture" thing because it's not mentioned in the canon anywhere and is also really lame. The Varauta army was pathetic by comparison.

Was anyone else really confused why the UN Spacy fighters in Frontier were labeled NUNS? I know it had technically been "the new UN Spacy" since the end of SWI, but labelling them NUNS despite Macross Plus using UN Spacy markings smacks of retconning. I also didn't like the way they changed the way space folds look... it seemed very arbitrary, despite 25 years of Macross cannon showing how it looks.

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Was anyone else really confused why the UN Spacy fighters in Frontier were labeled NUNS?

---
HG   「俺ら自分でアニメ製作できないからお前らロボテックの新作作れよ、格安でな!」
タツノコ「作れる連中は河森について出て行っちゃったよ(給与不払い問題で)」
河森  「マクロスの新作を作るぞ!」
HG   「んなもん作る暇あったらロボテックの新作を作れ、格安でな!」
河森  「そんなのやだよ」
HG   「じゃマクロスの新作を作れないように嫌がらせをしてやる、
                 裁判所に英語のMacross、U.N.Spacyの表記とロゴの使用禁止申し立てだ」
タツノコ「河森に対してマクロスの商標権起訴をおこすわ」
裁判所 「マクロスの商標はタツノコ、キャラとメカは河森のものと決定しますた」
河森  「マクロスF作ったぞ、英語のMacross表記とロゴ、U.N.SpacyをやめてS.N.Sにしたぞ」
HG   「ぐぬぬ・・・・」
HG   「タツノコは責任もって2013年中にロボテックの新作を作れよな!格安でな!」
タツノコ「・・・・・・・・」
---
HG "We can't make the anime by ourselves, so you guys make it! At a bargain price!"
Tatsunoko "The guys who can make it got out of here with Kawamori."(Because of the problem that it didn't pay their wages.)
Kawamori "I will make the new Macross!"
HG "Make the new Robotech anime aside from such a thing. At a bargain price!"
Kawamori "Nope."
HG "OK. We will harass them so that they can't make the new one. We will submit a petition of freezing the logo notation of "Macross" in English and U.N.Spacy to the court"
Tatsunoko "We will file a suit about the trade mark of "Macross" with the court toward Kawamori."
Court "Its trade mark belongs to Tatsunoko, and the Characters and mechas are Kawamori's. This is the conclusion."
Kawamori "We made Macross F. Banned the logo notation of "Macross" in English and changed U.N.Spacy into S.N.S."
HG "Hmmmm."
HG "You guys have the responsibility, Tatsunoko. Make the new Robotech by the end of 2013! AT A BARGAIN PRICE!"
Tatsunoko "..............."
---
N.U.N.S. might have applied because of the same reason, too.
I don't know if this story is perfectly true or not. But Tatsunoko actually filed a suit with the court about its copyright and trade mark. And the result was really like this.
Edited by antibiotictab
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