3d Printing General Topic...

[zammaz]

Thank you GU-11 . I no longer buy any toys I try to spend my pocket money on this technology. for me its like a dream come true hopefully it gets cheaper and more Eco friendly materials will be available.

[Chronocidal]

Very fancy stuff there!

So, starting to have a problem, and I'm not sure what's behind it. After a few successful prints with no trouble, suddenly, my printer can't seem to make the layers of the support structure stick together.

I've got absolutely no trouble sticking to the base, but the layers of the support structure are just peeling apart before I even start the model. It's like only the first 3-4 layers are sticking before everything just starts peeling up from there.

One thing I am noticing though, the strips the printer is putting down to build up the support structure used to be straight lines, but now the material is turning into little squiggles, which I can't tell is on purpose or not.

Is the structure just cooling too fast, and not sticking to itself? That would explain this happening I guess, but then I have no idea what changed between yesterday and today. I had a near perfect print of an entire model last night, but I haven't been able to get anything decent all day today.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Chronocidal

[GU-11]

@ Chronocidal: have you tried posting a question here?

[Chronocidal]

Not yet, I'm still learning my way around the active forums about 3d printing, so that'll probably come in handy.

Though, I think I do know what's going on.. I'm just trying to print things that're too big and flexible for the printer to not mess up the shape. Printing smaller parts at a time seems to work much better.

I've been reworking that excalibur model with panel lines, and printing a small test piece tonight, so we'll see how that goes.

[GU-11]

Excalibur model? Tell me more, you have my attention.

[Chronocidal]

Well, Wing Commander type, if you're wondering. I think I posted a pic here earlier, but here's the most recent model I'm trying to print from. It's the same model I sent to Shapeways a while back, but I just finished cutting the panel lines into it.

I cut the panel lines oversized to make sure they print deep enough to allow a little sanding and smoothing, and I had one print that came out pretty close to perfect last night, but a few of the panel lines were too close together, and caused some misaligned layers in between. I'm reprinting the upper fuselage with some adjustments right now, along with the main wing, so we'll see how that comes out.

Was also really happy to find out Amazon sells the refill spools. Wish I could find some gray, but I got another spool of white and one of black for about $35 each.

Edit:

So, here's the top half of the fuselage I printed, panel lines included. Took about 3 hours to do on the "fine" setting, and a bit of sanding to clean up, but it really smoothed out nicely.

Sadly, this one's got a few of the messed up details from panel lines being too close together, so I'll probably print another one later. I tried a print on fast, and the panel lines turned out correctly, but the overal quality wasn't great.

So far, I'm having the best success printing things vertically. This was printed with the nose pointing straight up, and I was happy to see it not tip over. Most of the other pieces should print fine that way, but I'm having a dickens of a time setting up the wing. It's too wide standing on its back edge to print reliably (printing anything long and skinny doesn't stick), so right now I'm waiting on a test to see if it'll even print laying flat.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Chronocidal

[GU-11]

I was thinking of another Excalibur, but this one's just as awesome!

Yeah, I've also found that vertical printing is yields the best results. Those panel lines came out really well.

What do you plan to use for the canopy? There's clear filament available, although it's more like frosted glass than clear.

[Chronocidal]

I'm not even concerned about a cockpit at the moment, the scale on WC ships is insane, and even at this size, it's close to 1/200 scale. I don't think the clear filiment would ever make a usable canopy anyway, due to the layering process.

I can probably print the main body components all the same way as the upper fuselage, so those I'm not concerned with too much, but this wing is a puzzle. It covers nearly the entire printing area at the size I'm aiming for, and I was able to print a test copy flat, but at some point in the print, part of the wing came loose and warped upwards. Besides that, the underside was so covered with layers of support structure it was impossible to clean up.

I'm experimenting with either cutting the wing in half and molding it from the center outward, or building my own support structure to hold the thing in place, because to two times I've tried printing it vertically, it came loose within the first few layers.

[GU-11]

I'm a little confused here. On the pic you posted, the wings are pretty small. Is that just part of the whole model, or a different model altogether?

[promethuem5]

I'm not even concerned about a cockpit at the moment, the scale on WC ships is insane, and even at this size, it's close to 1/200 scale. I don't think the clear filiment would ever make a usable canopy anyway, due to the layering process.

I can probably print the main body components all the same way as the upper fuselage, so those I'm not concerned with too much, but this wing is a puzzle. It covers nearly the entire printing area at the size I'm aiming for, and I was able to print a test copy flat, but at some point in the print, part of the wing came loose and warped upwards. Besides that, the underside was so covered with layers of support structure it was impossible to clean up.

I'm experimenting with either cutting the wing in half and molding it from the center outward, or building my own support structure to hold the thing in place, because to two times I've tried printing it vertically, it came loose within the first few layers.

Looks awesome! All those panel lines are impressive. For your wings, I've managed to print similar parts vertically before, and if you can get it to work, that'll yield your best print quality. Printing the wings laying flat will require you to have two wing halves that sandwich together, and that'll be tough to get them assembled without any gaps. The key factors to getting long skinny parts like that to print vertically are the bed heat and the platform calibration. How long are you letting your bed preheat? If you really let it cook for close to the full hour, and have the platform tightly calibrated, your prints should stay stuck down.

[Chronocidal]

Maybe I should clarify which piece I'm actually referring to.

img4.jpg

The piece I'm working with is that huge wing in the lower left. It's the centerpiece of the model, and everything glues to it.

I'm thinking I might need to custom build a support for it though, since there's nothing to really hold it to the plate if it stands on the back edge.

I've been letting the platform get up to 100⁰ C before I print anything, which usually takes about 10-15 min, but I can try seeing if it goes higher than that. I'm not sure if the platform stays heated while printing though. As far as calibration goes, I've been using the auto-level sensor the printer came with, but I can try manually doing it as well.

What seems to happen is that the entire structure cools and shrinks as it gets farther from the platter, and it winds up warping things, pulling the edges up from the support. Ambient room temp is about 70⁰ F, would it help to keep the room itself warmer?

I probably do need to go read the official forums for the printer though.

[GU-11]

There are a couple of things you can tinker around with to see if it helps.

First off is the flap on the extrusion unit, which controls the amount of air that flows into the nozzle area. IIRC, you should keep it closed for better results if you're printing large objects. You can find out more in the user manual.

Secondly, make sure you don't have an AC, table or ceiling fan switched on nearby. Any uneven cooling or sudden draft can royally screw up the print job.

The general rule seems to be that the hotter the surrounding area is, the better. Living in a tropical country, that's hardly a problem for me...which is why I stay out of my man cave when the printer is working, or I'll be baked alive in there without turning on the fan or AC.

[Chronocidal]

So, a word of warning... don't let things get too hot around the printer... found out the hard way on this one.

To keep the area warm around the printer, I got a small space heater, and set it near the printer. Apparently, it was just too close, because it actually caused one of the belt drive bearing mounts to warp out of shape. Why they made this piece out of plastic, I don't know, but it bent enough that it lets the table driver belt slip off, killing the forward to back motion.

The piece is just a simple plastic bracket that holds onto the belt bearing, but it's tilted sideways in a way that won't hold the belt on anymore, so I'm going to need a new one. Probably will be quick and painless to replace, since I already disassembled the printer to get the part out, and it was easy to get to.

I might even just see if I can make a metal piece to replace the part entirely. I work near a metal shop, and someone might be able to machine me a metal bracket to do the same job without the risk of bending or warping if it gets too hot.

So, lesson learned, don't let the mechanisms themselves get too hot. I might just wait until it's warmer before trying any serious prints.

[GU-11]

Wow, that's horrible. Sorry to hear what happened.

It's a good thing the ambient temperature here is so warm that I'll never have to try heating the printer like that.

[electric indigo]

Have some fun here:

http://cubify.com/brands/3DMe/index.aspx

[Chronocidal]

Digging this back up since (huzzah!) the replacement part for my printer came in.

Think the overall problem I was having though is related to not keeping the print head clean enough. I was getting burn marks on things occasionally, so I think the buildup of burnt plastic on the tip of the extruder head was messing things up more than I realized.

I know I've heard of people just detaching the extruder heads and soaking them in acetone to clean them, so I'm going to make a shopping trip for some supplies before I try printing anything new.

[electric indigo]

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/08/14/first-low-cost-sls-3d-printers-hit-scene/

3D printing with SLS should continue to decrease with new players entering the market.

[mauz20]

Hi,

Just wondering. Has anyone here done 3d scanning of parts of their valkyries?

I got an Elintseeker lately and one of the pieces that I got was wrong, and since Yamato is no longer in business, I've asked around if they can 3d print it for me.

The 3d printing is affordable enough, but scanning is the killer.

Would be a great help if anyone who has the Elintseeker and a 3d scanner is able to scan it for me.

Thanks!

[Kurisama]

Well, don't be all mysterious man - which piece is it?

[mauz20]

man... i said everything except that, huh?

it's the right leg armor. yamato packaged 2 left leg armors in it:

actually, i also have a missing yf-19 engine intake

[Kurisama]

Damn son, this is really crap...

Yeah, it's now a lot more complicated - unless of course you scan the piece? Or hope to hell some one trashes theirs and sells it for parts, sorry buddy.

[EXO]

It'd be better if you hired someone to recast it for you. You won't have to sand it down.

A really good 3D scanner service would be expensive also. Home scanners aren't that great and would probably require a lot of correction.

I'd put up a thread in the wanted section to see if anyone has the two right leg armors for their elint.

[mauz20]

Ok. Thanks for the help, guys!

[Major Focker]

has anyone come across a VF-25 model printable in 1/144?

[wm cheng]

I've got a SketchUp surface model of a VF-25 that someone found for me to play around with. Its a surface model so its got to be made watertight and translated into a STL file but it seems pretty detailed.

I couldn't attach it to this message (says I'm not permitted to upload this type). Its only 6.5mb

Edited November 5, 2014 by wm cheng

[big F]

Wouldn't it be easier to get a fast pack set and just cast the little sticky out bit (has it even got a name) and then paint and glue.

[GU-11]

Here's a questions I couldn't find the answer to for the longest time; when 3d rendering sites say to give a 0.2mm clearance between pegs and peg holes, do they mean 0.2mm on all sides, or the total diameter?

For example, if I want to print a peg for a 10mm diameter peg hole, do I give the peg a 9.8mm diameter (0.1mm clearance on both sides) or 9.6mm diameter (0.2mm on both sides)?

[Chronocidal]

Given how tightly my few prints from Shapeways tended to turn out, I'd lean toward the 0.2 mm on both sides, as long as it doesn't compromise the structure.

[GU-11]

Thanks, Chronocidal! I guess it's better to err on the side of caution; 3D printer plastic is pretty hard to sand.

[GU-11]

One more thing, for UP Plus users out there:

I'm a little confused about the process of cleaning the nozzle. The manual says to heat the nozzle up by clicking on "extrude" and then "lowering the platform." How do I lower it?

And after wiping down the nozzle with paper or cotton cloth, do I just shut down the printer?

With such an expensive piece of machinery, I'm scared to simply shut it down by pressing the button on the back. The thing is, the manual just stops at "wipe down the nozzle with a cotton cloth", and doesn't say how to properly power down the printer. Or is it really just as simple as pressing the switch at the back?

[UN_MARINE]

The 0.2mm means diameter, at least on extruder type printers. I reduced my peg diameters by 0.15 to compensate for the shrinkage/expansion. Generally, a peg will expand by 015 - 0.2mm, and a slot/socket will shrink by the same amount.

[Chronocidal]

GU-11, on 11 Nov 2014 - 02:39, said:

One more thing, for UP Plus users out there:

I'm a little confused about the process of cleaning the nozzle. The manual says to heat the nozzle up by clicking on "extrude" and then "lowering the platform." How do I lower it?

And after wiping down the nozzle with paper or cotton cloth, do I just shut down the printer?

With such an expensive piece of machinery, I'm scared to simply shut it down by pressing the button on the back. The thing is, the manual just stops at "wipe down the nozzle with a cotton cloth", and doesn't say how to properly power down the printer. Or is it really just as simple as pressing the switch at the back?

I think I've shut mine down for various reasons, and I don't think there's really any harm in that, as long as the software isn't trying to send data to it. I usually just make sure the software is closed, and then turn the power off.

I've actually thought about this process quite a bit, but more about the cleaning process itself. One recommendation I saw with regards to extrusion printers in general was to soak the metal nozzle head in acetone to clean it out. Heating and extruding would seem to help a little, but that seems like a good way to cook the excess plastic onto the nozzle, which is what mine looks like it has done.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Chronocidal

[GU-11]

The 0.2mm means diameter, at least on extruder type printers. I reduced my peg diameters by 0.15 to compensate for the shrinkage/expansion. Generally, a peg will expand by 015 - 0.2mm, and a slot/socket will shrink by the same amount.

So, it's 0.3mm for the diameter (meaning 0.15mm for the radius)? Thanks, I'll try that out!

I think I've shut mine down for various reasons, and I don't think there's really any harm in that, as long as the software isn't trying to send data to it. I usually just make sure the software is closed, and then turn the power off.

I've actually thought about this process quite a bit, but more about the cleaning process itself. One recommendation I saw with regards to extrusion printers in general was to soak the metal nozzle head in acetone to clean it out. Heating and extruding would seem to help a little, but that seems like a good way to cook the excess plastic onto the nozzle, which is what mine looks like it has done.

Many thanks! Seriously feeling a lot better about turning off the printer just like that. I kept looking at the interface software, looking for a button that says "off" or "shutdown", and the manual said nothing about it.

Regarding the heating of the nozzle, yeah, removing the nozzle and soaking it is actually a more effective method. I just didn't want to go through the hassle of withdrawing the filament and putting it back in place afterwards. But come to think of it, heating up the nozzle might cause the filament to start extruding make even more of a mess.

I have an idea: if I just soaked a rag in acetone and wiped at an unheated nozzle, will that work in cleaning the burnt plastic from the nozzle's sides? It'll probably take a little longer, but it's not that different from soaking. Would that work?

BTW, the UP models have a new baby brother:

It's definitely kind of pricy at 2700 USD (though not close to Form1 pricy), and the specs aren't that much of an improvement. Still, it does slightly finer details at 0.10 resolution and has a bigger build area.

Lots of new conveniences, though, with everything enclosed in a cute little casing, and an air filter to keep your room from smelling like chlorine.

Edited November 12, 2014 by GU-11

[UN_MARINE]

So, it's 0.3mm for the diameter (meaning 0.15mm for the radius)? Thanks, I'll try that out!

You need to subtract 0.15 - 0.2mm from the total diameter of the peg, so if you have a 5mm peg, it needs to be 4.80 - 4.85mm. We printed stuff on an Up 2 machine, & those are the numbers we ended up with after the 1:1 test print.

[modelglue]

...and they spelled "Swap" wrong? Maybe it's a geographical thing.

Has anyone besides Chrono have anything to show us from their 3-D printers? I would really be interested to see the finest shots taken of products using the finest resolutions you guys are capable of.

I think the formalab STL device would be the winner for me personally, each example I have seen is far more fine and smooth (as intended) than the rivals. The price tag isn't too far out from the extrusion types here either.