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Regarding the antagonists, I found Kylo Ren quite well done with an impressive presence from Adam Driver. The weaker character was Snoke, IMO. The Voldemort-like design didn't impress me, and conceptually, I would have found it more interesting to have some Vader cultists like Ren explore the lost knowledge of the Dark Side (the Sith are gone, after all) and bringing it back to life with their very deeds, than to have a Big Bad from the beginning.

I was so busy picking on Ben/Ren that I forgot about the Voldemort wanna be. I agree with your statement as well.

So, are we done with spoiler tags yet? It's been a week.

Finally saw episode 7 in IMAX, my 5th time seeing it. Gotta say it was worth it...

Edited by myk
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I wanna get a giant Kylo Ren action figure and a giant Han Solo action figure and then drill a hole through the Han Solo one and shove Kylo's lightsaber....................etc.............

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Good looks skip a generation. Typically if the parents are cute

then the offspring tend to be ugly. However, I think Kylo Ren, like Anakin before him, will appeal to people today. Dark, brooding, emotional, hates everyone, cries; you know the drill...

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Good looks skip a generation. Typically if the parents are cute

then the offspring tend to be ugly. However, I think Kylo Ren, like Anakin before him, will appeal to people today. Dark, brooding, emotional, hates everyone, cries; you know the drill...

He doesn't actually hate everyone. That's why he is so conflicted. He seeks the power the Dark Side gives him, but the cost is tearing him apart.

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Regarding the antagonists, I found Kylo Ren quite well done with an impressive presence from Adam Driver. The weaker character was Snoke, IMO. The Voldemort-like design didn't impress me, and conceptually, I would have found it more interesting to have some Vader cultists like Ren explore the lost knowledge of the Dark Side (the Sith are gone, after all) and bringing it back to life with their very deeds, than to have a Big Bad from the beginning.

I had an interesting idea: What if Snoke is disguising his appearance? We only see him via hologram transmission, and thus, have no proof that he looks the way he does. What if we've already met the villain, and just don't know it yet?

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I had an interesting idea: What if Snoke is disguising his appearance? We only see him via hologram transmission, and thus, have no proof that he looks the way he does. What if we've already met the villain, and just don't know it yet?

Like Wizard of Oz?

He's got that scar across the top of his head.......clone of Vader, or Palpatine...or even Plagius?

Rey's vision is already on youtube....a really crappy copy though

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You know what line of dialog I find interesting? When Maz Kanata is trying to help Rey she says something like the belonging she seeks is ahead of her and whoever dumped her on Jakku isn't coming back, but there is someone who will come back. At this point the audience is expecting Rey to say Finn since he just left to work with the smugglers heading to the outer rim. Instead she says Luke of all people. This at least confirms they've met in the past.

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I don't know about you guys, but Max Von Sydow was wasted in this film. He could've used his magic ring to mentally stop Kylo Ren from slicing him up. :ph34r:

The current rumor is we'll see a younger version of his character in Rogue One.

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Listen carefully to the theme :ph34r:

I'm not sold on this one, and not just because JJ and company have denied it. Plagueis was a Muun, and while Snoke is tall and thin, he doesn't have the head of a Muun. Of course, Plagueis being a Muun is now old EU, so who knows?

Edited by Duke Togo
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I have to say, rather surprisingly, I've agreed with everything Duke said. Once you process this movie, it really is a lot deeper than your initial

reaction. Some of the less emotional scenes, may become more emotional with more story. I think Diver did a great job showing just how troubled Kylo is internally, and why he had such difficulty with fights.

I do think Snoke, is not who he seems. As my initial feeling is that he isn't even a Sith, but just the head of the knights of Ren.

Who dabble in Dark Side belief, but who do not have full control over it. I believe Snoke maybe in touch with whoever the remanments

of Sith are. However it would need a good explanation, as we all know from previous movies, there is always a Master and an Apprentice.

So once both were destroyed.. how does a new one come out of the galaxy?

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However it would need a good explanation, as we all know from previous movies, there is always a Master and an Apprentice.

So once both were destroyed.. how does a new one come out of the galaxy?

But if the Clone Wars series is now canon...it proves there can be more than 2 Sith around at any given moment.... Additional, the new movie has gone into the disturbing path of not being completely self-contained....you cannot get the full picture of what is going on without get the plot holes filled via all the "extended media"....which is the weakest part of the movie....

Edited by jvmacross
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I have to say, rather surprisingly, I've agreed with everything Duke said. Once you process this movie, it really is a lot deeper than your initial

reaction. Some of the less emotional scenes, may become more emotional with more story. I think Diver did a great job showing just how troubled Kylo is internally, and why he had such difficulty with fights.

I do think Snoke, is not who he seems. As my initial feeling is that he isn't even a Sith, but just the head of the knights of Ren.

Who dabble in Dark Side belief, but who do not have full control over it. I believe Snoke maybe in touch with whoever the remanments

of Sith are. However it would need a good explanation, as we all know from previous movies, there is always a Master and an Apprentice.

So once both were destroyed.. how does a new one come out of the galaxy?

I think we need to forget the Sith Order when it comes to Snoke, Kylo, and the Knights of Ren. They didn't have a monopoly on the Dark Side of the Force, they were simply the most successful to wield it. And they are gone.

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Posted this over at Starshipmodeler, just gonna repost it here.

Ok just watched it and this was after reading just about everything in this thread and many of the links within it. I'm not one to avoid spoilers.

A couple of things.

I liked this movie more than I thought I was going to. There are some obvious areas where things were a little too convenient, but the ones that took me out of the film were mostly all to do with Starkiller Base and it's destruction.
The first half of the film was very well done, I thought, and I didn't have any issues with it save one minor one.
That one problem was with Fin's character. I found it a bit galling to believe that someone stolen as a child and brought up in a military environment to fight for his captors would so easily reject them so completely and utterly and NEVER question it. The psychology of that is just a little hard to swallow, but as I said it is a minor misstep in my opinion and doesn't overshadow my enjoyment of the movie as a whole.

As for some of the issues others have had with the film I don't really see them as problematic at all.
Fin and Rey being able to last longer than a few seconds in battle with Kylo Ren. As has been stated by some Kylo was injured physically by Chewbacca's shot and he was also damaged psychologically by killing his father and these factors could help explain this. However, I think the true explanation is that this is done as a final conformation for the audience that this "new Vader" IS NOT VADER. He is a poseur, a wannabe. He does not have the strength in the force that Vader did, he is a fraud and deep down he knows this. His final mistake in this ACT he is perpetrating is to try and turn Rey. At this point his dabbling in that which he does not know enough about goes too far. By trying to prove himself worthy (to the galaxy as much as to himself) his bluff is called and he unknowingly awakens a the dragon which he cannot slay. This scene cements for the audience that this Giant killer is a fraud and That Rey is the true heir to the force, which is beautifully displayed by his trying to force pull Anikin's/Luke's light-saber to his hand only to have it fly past him almost taking his head off on it's way to Rey's awaiting grasp.

Leia walking past Chewie and going directly to Rey (a girl she didn't even know - as the complainants say) is completely understandable to me. It had nothing to do with Han. Leia and Rey were at that point moved by the Force. the movie is about Rey's awakening, her realization about who she is and what her destiny is. That is why Leia went to her. Leia was aware, through her harmony with the force that Rey had awoken to this - and that is what that scene (and indeed the whole film) was about Leia acknowledging Rey's realization that she is this generation's savior.
A scene showing Leia and Chewie mourning for Han would have, I think, been misplaced. It would have set the wrong tone as far as the pacing of the film and the story that was being told - Rey's Story. The climax scenes on Starkiller Base contained it's destruction, the death of Han and The Awakening of Rey. The more important of those three for the overarching story of the new trilogy is the last.



As for the 'finding' of Luke this comes after the story of this first film has ended. It is the bridge to the next film. There is no need to show more about the trip to retrieve him unless something interesting and relevant to the story happens during that trip, which it does not, because at this point the story has been told. Why/How did R2 awaken at that point -simple, he awoke because Rey had awoken. The mechanics of how it happened are irrelevant. It reinforces Rey's own awakening and helps build the bridge to the next chapter. That is the purpose of that scene in the story. As for the wordless conclusion to the film there were no words necessary. That scene was the bridge to the next film (and has has been said, it could have been left out). In that scene what I think we get is the final confirmation that Rey has accepted who and what she is as we see Luke's conflicted expression at the realization of what is now before him. The time he has been waiting for has arrived and he must now face the challenge and hardship he knew was coming and that he fears he is not up to - the training of Rey.
Rey's face as she looks back at him and pulls out Anikin's light saber is one of acknowledgement that she knows now who she is, what she must do, and, I believe, what Luke had done to her. Namely leaving her on Jakku and erasing her memory of who and what she was as well as her past and his part in it. There is a certain amount of youthful, steadfast defiance in her expression as she holds the hilt of the saber pointing it at him. There is that plus a sort of pleading. it is as if she is saying "I know now. I know and I know that you are aware of this too. And you MUST train me . . .please.

This film is her story, seen from that perspective I think a lot (surely not all) of the problems some people have with the film simply become moot. By no means is it a perfect movie it certainly has it's issues, but as far as the story that it is there to tell, Rey's story, it does that extremely well.
The issues that it does have: the destruction of the Republic being seen in the skies of a planet across the galaxy from the event, the physics of the Starkiller Base, the destruction of that base - both the ease with which this was done as well as it's echoing of past films; these were problematic yes, but these elements were part of the background for the story - not crucial to it. could they have been done better? probably. Does it hurt the movie - possibly, but I suspect that in the long run they won't really matter.

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That one problem was with Fin's character. I found it a bit galling to believe that someone stolen as a child and brought up in a military environment to fight for his captors would so easily reject them so completely and utterly and NEVER question it. The psychology of that is just a little hard to swallow, but as I said it is a minor misstep in my opinion and doesn't overshadow my enjoyment of the movie as a whole.

I'm not 100% sure what it is you're questioning here, but we do know from additional sources (*sigh*) that while Finn excelled in his combat simulations, he was reprimanded for showing concern for the lives of others (specifically his fellow cadets). He's a protector, not a killer. He was stuck in sanitation for a reason.

Edited by Duke Togo
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Finally saw the movie and I think I still prefer the OT but TFA is clearly a better movie than the prequels. My main problem with the movie is that I think it is totally unnecessary because:

It is too much like A New Hope.

I'm sure this was discussed elsewhere but it is really a problem for me. Even in the prequels the Star Wars universe unveiled more and more layers of its myths. I enjoyed watching them for the first time in the cinema because I got to know the universe better. Of course they where painful to watch for a second time and many of the things I've learned where boring but in TFA nothing new was there.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing if Episode VIII is not The Empire Strikes Back.

Some stuff that baffled me was how easy Finn turned after his first battle with the First Order. In my opinion a veteran would have an easier time to switch sides and kill his former comrades than a newbie.

I'm not sure if Finn is also able to use the Force. From my knowledge it is impossible to use a Lightsaber properly without being able to have some sort of Force affinity. So even if Kylo Ren was not a fully trained Force-user he should have no difficulties to kill someone with a Lightsaber who can't use the force.

Third I found it odd that everyone is so trustworthy. The first sentence when people meet in the movie is always: There is a map that leads to Luke Skywalker. Why do they thrust each other that easily?

I also don't get the connection between the Republic, the Resistance and the First Order. I don't want to read any additional comics or books or anything else. If it is important for the movie show it in the movie. I'm sure the director or screenwriter chose the name Resistance purposefully to bemuse the people that could leak information.

I had no problem with the fact that you could see the destruction of the other planets in the movie since it seemed pretty clear to me that they are all in the same star system because they wanted to rip out the heard of the Republic so it makes sense to me to destroy all the major planets in the system because they would surely have some sort of administrative role that close to the center of power. One question was one of the planets they destroyed Coruscant?

One major bummer was the scene on the bridge with Han Solo and Kylo Ren. While I successfully avoided major spoilers someone said on the boards that Kylo Ren was one of the best movie badguys ever and the response was that it is too early to tell. So from that I extrapolated that he will survive the movie.

Now back to the bridge scene. For a moment I thought Han Solo would kill his son and that would have been a ballsy move and would make the following movies interesting to see how the relationship between Han and Leia would play out in the aftermath. However I can see that this movie was a vehicle to introduce new characters so I'm sure this was the way it should be from the start. Give some fan service to the audience and give parts of the original cast the opportunity to shine bright for a few scenes.

I'd love to see the aftermath of RotJ and how the current state of the galaxy is. However I'm currently more interested to see how powerful of a Jedi Luke has become.

I'm sure that I will see the movie a second time (maybe in 2D) and I really enjoyed watching all the puppets, costumes, practical effects and real sets which gave the movie a sense of realism and timelessly appearance that makes the OT great movies even to this date. I'm sure I will be able to enjoy TFA down the line.

I really hope that Disney is greedy enough to release the OT unaltered on Blu-Ray since I don't want to deal with this CGI bullshit and downloading the despecialized edition through a torrent is too dangerous in my country.

I'm looking forward to Episode VIII.

Edited by Scyla
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Yes. She's to have a larger role in VIII.

i know, i'm just messing. you've done a great job helping to cover the gaps.

Now some random thoughts...

It looks like the first order and EVERYONE knows of a luke skywalker. Snoke says if luke returns, the new jedi will rise.

Also luke left to find the first temple as a reaction to kylo ren. Snoke seems deathly afraid for luke to return because I THINK he's actively doing something and not just hiding out. If the last jedi is hiding out, depressed and doesn't want to be found, leave him alone, who cares? right? Also, "new jedi" kylo must have not killed all of the ones Luke was training. maybe he's trying to learn an ancient jedi way. we don't know if he's at the temple now.

Also from the title crawl, the first order is out there to really kill luke or make sure he's never to return stranded somewhere, and not having much of a priority on galactic conquest until luke is certainly out of the way.

I tried to watch out for a grave stone, there's a jagged stone jutting slantingly upwards next to him, but if you see the wider shots, it looks like there are many slanted stones around, but before rey even gets up there, she almost walks into something causing her to stop and look at it on the ground. dunno what that was. a step stool? lol idk.

I'm thinking of picking up the novel to try to fill in some other gaps.

Theres a weird jump cut on leia when talking to han at the base. it may have not been important what she's saying but who knows.

a lot of ppl are trying to read han's face when he finds out rey's name like he knows of her. but i took that look as a "well that sucks for you" look.

Add to the fact leia didn't acknowledge rey as a niece or anything,

Edited by Negotiator
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I'm not 100% sure what it is you're questioning here, but we do know from additional sources (*sigh*) that while Finn excelled in his combat simulations, he was reprimanded for showing concern for the lives of others (specifically his fellow cadets). He's a protector, not a killer. He was stuck in sanitation for a reason.

I don't mean to belabor the point, because as I said it is really only a minor quibble and I understand the reasoning behind it. Fin is the moral center of the story to a large degree and he serves as a moral navigator for Rey ( much as the Fin of a fish or a plane is used to steer). He helps her make the right choices when it is difficult for her.

My problem with that could very easily be of my own making. As it is presented in the film Fin is essentially a child soldier and as such the First Order would have been a surrogate family. Breaking away from them would be akin to turning on your family and while that does happen I don't think it is ever quite so definitive and clean with no emotional kickback or remorse.

The psychology of what happens to child soldiers after they are 'rescued' is never quite so simple and while Fin wasn't rescued I think it is still very relevant to his situation. Perhaps even more-so because he made the break himself with no outside influence. I just have a hard time with that.

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