bake_art Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Hi guys, a thought just struck me... when a valkyrie pilot is flying in fighter mode at high speeds and suddenly changes into battroid mode, doesn't the laws of physics mean that the pilot would turn into a pilot 'pancake' due to the rapid change in inertia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechamaniac Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 (edited) Hi guys, a thought just struck me...when a valkyrie pilot is flying in fighter mode at high speeds and suddenly changes into battroid mode, doesn't the laws of physics mean that the pilot would turn into a pilot 'pancake' due to the rapid change in inertia? Not as long as the Valk keeps moving at the same velocity. If the Valk were to transform to battroid, and stop on a dime, then yeah, the pilot would encounter some significant G's which may result in pilot pancake. And of course, this would only apply in gravity, in space it would make no difference. Edited December 4, 2003 by Mechamaniac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stampeed Valkyrie Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 lol this thread reminds me of the pictures I see quite often of a valkyrie in atmosphere switching to Gerwalk to rapidly deccelerate....and I keep thinking yep thats gonna leave a mark . Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dna Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 And of course, this would only apply in gravity, in space it would make no difference. Lol, so the universal laws of motion stop in space, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightbat Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 well, on earth you can always go "One Louder" than in space true inertia and motion still have effect in space, but there is less strain since the earth's gravity doesn't come into play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohsho Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 A person won't turn in a pancake that badly, they are wearing those G-Suits for a reason. Most likey they would smash their head into the control panel and knock themselves out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 A person won't turn in a pancake that badly, they are wearing those G-Suits for a reason. Most likey they would smash their head into the control panel and knock themselves out. G-suits aren't for impact G spikes. They're there to help the pilot endure sustained G's during maneuvers and loss of consciousness from blood pooling to the legs. That's why G suits inflate at high G, to squeeze blood back from the legs to the head. Inertia works everywhere, not just in a gravity field. At least as far as I understand. The earth's constant 1G doesn't really matter all that much in comparison to the 100+ G spikes during some high-impact Nascar crashes. And yeah, 100+ G spikes is survivable. But I guess only really, really short spikes. -Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mule Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Inertia is a fact of this reality no matter where you are. It has to do with movement not gravity. Inertia is the tendancy of an object to continue at its current velocity until acted upon by an outside force. It is possible that the cockpits have an overtechnology inertial dampening system in them. Placing gravity modulators in the seat could counteract the extreem forces of dogfighting and transforming. I couldn't find anything in the compendium about it, but I didn't look that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-ZeroOne Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 It is possible that the cockpits have an overtechnology inertial dampening system in them. Placing gravity modulators in the seat could counteract the extreem forces of dogfighting and transforming. I couldn't find anything in the compendium about it, but I didn't look that hard. Heh, can't resist this Stargate SG-1 quote, as two of the team are running down the checklist for a new fighter: "Inertial dampers?" "Inertial dampers?! Cool! ... ...and, er, check." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewilen Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 As has been mentioned, the earth's gravity makes little difference. What might be more important is the atmospheric drag of a battroid or gerwalk versus a fighter. Transformation to battroid while at high speed would probably result in very rapid deceleration, perhaps even a loss of stability beyond the ability of the automatic control systems to compensate. Both of these could result in dangerously high G forces--certainly high enough to immobilize a pilot, possibly enough to cause injury. When an XB-70 Valkyrie was involved in an accident, it went into a spin whose G-forces trapped one of the pilots in his chair, preventing his escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the white drew carey Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Anime Magic? I don't think it's as much of an issue as we'd like to make it. I mean, check out the following sequence from the M3 intro. It seems that not only are Max and Millia completely fine with the effects of inertia, but they don't even bother to strap in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noyhauser Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I've been thinking about this... And maybe its complete science fiction, but maybe someone with a physics degree can explain this... If they have Anti gravity devices .... what would prevent them from counteracting inertia by creating another gravity field that could nullify its affects. my physics classes are five years out so maybe I'm talking about two different things. If it could work you could have VF-22s able to hit the +-60Gs mark like they were designed for. And if you think that they couldn't create a gravity producer that small, think again, because in Macross 7 we see microphones for firebomber that must rely on anti gravity to stay infront of the singer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azrael Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Inertia works everywhere, not just in a gravity field. At least as far as I understand. The earth's constant 1G doesn't really matter all that much in comparison to the 100+ G spikes during some high-impact Nascar crashes. And yeah, 100+ G spikes is survivable. But I guess only really, really short spikes. Yep yep. Had a very long talk with a buddy of mine (getting his PhD in physics ) a while back and that comes about close to what I remember us discussing. And unless we go from 0 to x times light speed or vice versa, then no we won't be pancakes, in atmosphere or space. IIRC, my buddy told me 20 Gs is like bashing your head against a wall once. And if NASCAR drivers take 100 G spikes when crashing and still live, then what we've seen is correct, except for Guld in M+ movie. My buddy said to me that scene was just anime magic.... You guys might want to look at this: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/nov98...62963.Bp.r.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Newer G-suits are designed for "rapid-onset" G's more than sheer number of G's, since F-16 pilots were having a problem with it. (Going from 1G to 7G quickly is much worse than gradually going from 1 to 9, for example--the F-16 is the fastest-accelerating plane there is, both in sheer velocity and turning). Also, UN Spacy pilots train for really high G's. In Mac7+, you can see Gamlin training at like 12 or 13G's, just for basic simulator stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bake_art Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Anime Magic? I don't think it's as much of an issue as we'd like to make it. I mean, check out the following sequence from the M3 intro. It seems that not only are Max and Millia completely fine with the effects of inertia, but they don't even bother to strap in! yeah... but.... it's Max and Milia. they can do anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imode Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Look what happened to Guld................... If those weren't effects of extreme inertia, I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bake_art Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Newer G-suits are designed for "rapid-onset" G's more than sheer number of G's, since F-16 pilots were having a problem with it. (Going from 1G to 7G quickly is much worse than gradually going from 1 to 9, for example--the F-16 is the fastest-accelerating plane there is, both in sheer velocity and turning). Also, UN Spacy pilots train for really high G's. In Mac7+, you can see Gamlin training at like 12 or 13G's, just for basic simulator stuff. Isn't 9G the maximum G's humans can take? (Any more and they die, don't they?) And also, with the kind of prolonged G's and G-spikes that valkyrie pilots would have to put up with during combat, even if they manage to survive those G-forces doesn't mean that they'll be able to stay conscious... Ah hell... Thinking too much about it... gotta remember that it's just a cartoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 (edited) Guld just had an undiagnosed eye condition... As for humans/G's---well, 9 is generally the limit for any length of time. Many test pilots though can take 12/13, but most planes don't allow it. (This is often cited for an F-16 crash---pilot tried to pull up, but plane only allowed 9G---most pilots couldn't take more than that, but being the long-time test-pilot he was, he certainly could--if the plane wasn't limited to 9G, he could have done more like 10 or 11G, and probably pulled out of it) But astronauts often have to go up to 20G's for *brief* periods I think. 30 is about the most I know of anyone going through for any air/space reasons. The main reason you don't see more than 9 is most *weapons* won't take it. Many aircraft (even F-16's etc) have 7G limits when carrying most weapons. No point in pulling 8G's if all your weapons and pylons break off in the process. F-15's had a lot of work done to ensure their FAST packs could take 9G's without coming apart. Now that planes are getting internal weapons, it'll help raise G limits. Edited December 5, 2003 by David Hingtgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noyhauser Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 ... sigh sometimes I should read the whole thread through before I post... but in complete speculation... can an overtechnology field dampener actually counteract the effects of high G manuvers in space?, like if it was possible real physics (not Anime Physics) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Sama Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 And of course, this would only apply in gravity, in space it would make no difference. Lol, so the universal laws of motion stop in space, huh? no. objects in motion ten to stay in motion unless acted upon by naother force. a valkyrie changing shape woudls till keep it;s vector. aka. same speed and direction it was going when it was a fighter. changing of shape woudl have no affect in a vacume, also no gavity to slwo it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightbat Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 no.objects in motion ten to stay in motion unless acted upon by naother force. a valkyrie changing shape woudls till keep it;s vector. aka. same speed and direction it was going when it was a fighter. changing of shape woudl have no affect in a vacume, also no gavity to slwo it down. Although your statement is correct I believe Bake Art is reffering to the infamous "Gerwalk-Brake" (aka the Hotshot's pt. Deux Carrierlanding effect) before changing to battroid in this case forward motion is decreased dramatically, this also applies in space, since the legthrusters still provide breakingpower, vacuum or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imode Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 They'd probably get some nasty whiplash, but I don't think it'd turn a man into goo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryHolmes Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 And that whiplash is taken care of by those nice, padded belts that pilots tend to wear at times. And you also have to take intentions into effect. If it's a planned change, then the pilot will presumably kill spead so the change isn't that hard on man or machine. If it's an unplanned change... well, that's what those strappy things are for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dna Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 And that whiplash is taken care of by those nice, padded belts that pilots tend to wear at times.And you also have to take intentions into effect. If it's a planned change, then the pilot will presumably kill spead so the change isn't that hard on man or machine. If it's an unplanned change... well, that's what those strappy things are for. I dunno - whiplash would still get 'em. Look at the SDFM TV when Hikaru first takes the Super Valk out to save Misa - when he first changes, it looks like his head is not very secure - there are no strappy things for his brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imode Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 And that whiplash is taken care of by those nice, padded belts that pilots tend to wear at times.And you also have to take intentions into effect. If it's a planned change, then the pilot will presumably kill spead so the change isn't that hard on man or machine. If it's an unplanned change... well, that's what those strappy things are for. I dunno - whiplash would still get 'em. Look at the SDFM TV when Hikaru first takes the Super Valk out to save Misa - when he first changes, it looks like his head is not very secure - there are no strappy things for his brain. You'd think the UN Spacy would be aware of the events of Nascar or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dna Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 They are from Japan, not the deep south (j/k) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingNor Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 (Going from 1G to 7G quickly is much worse than gradually going from 1 to 9, for example--the F-16 is the fastest-accelerating plane there is, both in sheer velocity and turning). High G's are deadly no matter how they are reached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hingtgen Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 (edited) Yes, but that's not my point. My point is that how quickly they are reached is also a factor, and can be a GREATER factor than simply how many G's there are. Yes, 10G's will knock most anybody out. But pilots who can hold normally hold 8 or 9 G's with few problems, will find themselves knocked totally unconscious from only 5 or 6G's, if the onset is rapid enough. Edited December 7, 2003 by David Hingtgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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