3D-Brainx Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 That coming along nicely! Hell, its awesome! I saw on an earlier pic that you use 3dsmax, are you using turbosmooth to subdivide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 That coming along nicely! Hell, its awesome! I saw on an earlier pic that you use 3dsmax, are you using turbosmooth to subdivide? Thanks! No turbosmooth. I never use that, because it just doesn't have the sort of control I want. It can work nicely for soft organic shapes, but I find it pretty useless for detailed hard-surface work. This is all NURMS subdivision surface, which has a lot more options and controlability. News update: I managed to miss UPS yet again today! They came an hour before the stated delivery window, and I was in the shower. I scheduled a will-call pickup later this evening, so I will update later about how the V2 VF-1S head print from Shapeways turned out. Stay tuned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Brainx Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 NURMS? Really? It would have been my last guess. You are the first guy I see using nurms in 3dsmax with such a great result, great work! I used nurms in Rhino but I when tried to apply the same logic in max I got awful results, so I just gave up on them. Any hints to were I can take a deeper look at nurms in max? Can't wait to see that new VF-1 head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) NURMS? Really? It would have been my last guess. You are the first guy I see using nurms in 3dsmax with such a great result, great work! I used nurms in Rhino but I when tried to apply the same logic in max I got awful results, so I just gave up on them. Any hints to were I can take a deeper look at nurms in max? I've never had much chance to mess with sub-d prior to this, as it isn't of much use for game work. I just dived in and experimented while I was prepping the VF-1S head for printing. The trick in Max is to use the options for using smoothing groups and material IDs for separataions. You can use these to create logical boundaries within which the smoothing is contained. It is similar to what other packages allow with "creased edges" (ie. boundary between smoothing groups in Max), but you can also use separate material IDs to create the boundaries as well, giving you some extra degree of freedom to work with. The rest is pretty much like any other 3d package that does sub-d, I would assume. You just use the topology to define where the curves are, which means that you will need edges in places that you might otherwise not bother with. Curves like to have edge loops that create their boundaries, as close to perpendicular to the starting and end points as possible, and it works best if there is also a mid-point edge that is perpendicular to the apex of the curve. The rest is tuning the number of edge loops along curves to control how much (or how little) the curve will get sub-divided. Most of my work converting the VF-1 model to sub-d is just re-topologizing the model, cutting new edges in where I need to control curvature, modifying smoothing groups and material ID boundaries to control the subdivision boundaries, and adjusting the spacing of the edge loops. Edited August 10, 2012 by danbickell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoexcaliber Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I've never had much chance to mess with sub-d prior to this, as it isn't of much use for game work. I just dived in and experimented while I was prepping the VF-1S head for printing. The trick in Max is to use the options for using smoothing groups and material IDs for separataions. You can use these to create logical boundaries within which the smoothing is contained. It is similar to what other packages allow with "creased edges" (ie. boundary between smoothing groups in Max), but you can also use separate material IDs to create the boundaries as well, giving you some extra degree of freedom to work with. The rest is pretty much like any other 3d package that does sub-d, I would assume. You just use the topology to define where the curves are, which means that you will need edges in places that you might otherwise not bother with. Curves like to have to have edge loops that create their boundaries, as close to perpendicular to the starting and end points as possible, and it works best if there is also a mid-point edge that is perpendicular to the apex of the curve. The rest is tuning the number of edge loops along curves to control how much (or how little) the curve will get sub-divided. Most of my work converting the VF-1 model to sub-d is just re-topologizing the model, cutting new edges in where I need to control curvature, modifying smoothing groups and material ID boundaries to control the subdivision boundaries, and adjusting the spacing of the edge loops. Woah, looks like I've learned something new today. Thanks for the tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Well, the V2 VF-1S head print is an all-around success! This one seems to have come out quite a bit cleaner, and without any apparent faceting. Will have to run it through the clean-up process and shoot some primer on it to really tell. The domes on the guns certainly seem much smoother, and the gun barrels seem rounder as well. I think they spent more time cleaning this order, although it seems to have a lot more of the greasy coconut oil coating than the first print did. The best part is that the gun barrels came with maybe 10% (at most) of the wax inside them. I was able to blow air straight through one of the barrels right out of the bag. The rifling detail looks much more defined, without the wax plugging it up. Interestingly, the 2 main neck pieces came assembled in the bag this time. They are not printed that way, but the cleaner at Shapeways obviously must have deduced that the 2 pieces fit together and tried it out. I have to wonder if they played with it a little! The vac-form buck for the visor and lenses is an interesting experiment with the frosted detail material (not the frosted ultra detail). The detail is still pretty crisp, but the surface feels rougher. It also didn't come all greasy like the FUD parts. I'm kinda curious to see what the head would look like printed in the FD instead of the FUD. The FD doesn't have as small of a minimum detail size, so I'm guessing the panel lines might not be as well defined, but that would only cost $73 vs $105. It might not look half bad, and just require some additional sanding. It could be a good option for a fighter mode head. No new pics yet. I might put the parts through the ultrasonic cleaner bath later tonight, and post pics of the cleaned parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Nice. I wish I could have seen the other version before it was sanded smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Nice. I wish I could have seen the other version before it was sanded smooth. Actually, the first one hardly had any sanding at all. All the pictures posted prior to spraying primer on it were without any sanding at all. After the cleaning, the "frosting" showed up (apparently where the wax support material had been, but was now stripped out and no longer helping to smooth out the surface). There was a visible vertical line on the face between the frosted and unfrosted side, so that line got a few passes of a fine grit emery board to smooth it out. The first one also had what I assume was a print error on the top of the head. There was a thin sliver of material jutting out of the line between the mohawk and the left side of the top, which got trimmed out and cleaned up with a few more passes with the emery board. The front facet of the mohawk had more apparent print lines (steeper angle), so that got a few passes. Other than that, the rest of the surface was left as is. We were paranoid as hell that any sanding would kill the little 0.1mm panel lines, so it barely got touched. I would estimate well under 10% of the surface was sanded at all, and even that was very minimal. After the primer, you could see all the details much better, and they look more robust than I thought they would. Of course, you could also see the flaws, and the faceting. Some of the print lines that were visible when it was clear went away (must have been internal), but others were still slightly visible (external stair-steps on steeper angles). We talked about doing more sanding at that point, but decided to leave it as is. There were a few spots that got a few clean-up swipes with the emery board, but not even going through the paint. You can still see the flaws on the painted model, in the right light. Some of it is visible in the pictures. Harsh lighting shows more of it. In retrospect, it could have used more prep, but it kinda looks cool in some ways. Fokker has an early model, that has been beat up and repainted, and isn't perfectly smooth. I'm thinking this second one will get more sanding all around (despite seeming cleaner, and error free so far), but I'm thinking really fine wet sanding. We don't have the anxiety so much this time to get it all done as soon as humanly possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikaru2 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) I'm thinking this second one will get more sanding all around (despite seeming cleaner, and error free so far), but I'm thinking really fine wet sanding. We don't have the anxiety so much this time to get it all done as soon as humanly possible. Yeah yeah we'll slow down for this one Knocking around some different ideas about prepping the surface and about the lenses as well. Edited August 10, 2012 by Hikaru2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Took my time cleaning up this print, with multiple baths in the ultrasonic cleaner with hot water, dish soap, and cleaning powder, followed by some rinsing passes in the ultrasonic cleaner with just clean water. There is now zero sign of any wax residue. The gun barrels are completely clean, and flow air and water smoothly. This process really brings out the "frosting" in the "frosted ultra detail". It is difficult to photograph, but here's a few pics under different lighting conditions. These have not been altered in any way, other than the clean-up process stated above. Harsh lighting with a dark background really shows everything. You can see the vertical line on the face between the frosted side and the unfrosted side (where the support wax was and wasn't). That was one of the main places we smoothed out on the first print. I tried to get a shot looking down the barrel, but it was pretty impossible to get my iPad to focus on it. It looks much cooler in person, but you can see how it goes all the way through, and the rifling detail is nice and crisp the whole way. Of course, the main head and eye detail are separate pieces, and the neck there is 4 separate pieces, but they fit snuggly enough that they hold together by themselves for the pictures. That shot of the main head piece is facing straight up, unsupported and resting on the 3 grooves on the back of the head. I still can't see any faceting this time around, but you can see some of the print lines in places. Some of it you can barely feel, and other parts you can't. Some of the lines that were visible before cleaning became invisible after it frosted post-cleaning (probably just internal). I think some light sanding should easily take care of it. I'm still waiting on the vac-form table I ordered. I'm really curious to see how good we can get the clear parts to come out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JET7 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Im imagining hugging a toy of your creation in my bed. No more i sat on my valk stories, just i hugged my valk to bed stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Did you get to orient it how you want? Looks like the neck was printed on it's side but I guess there's less undercut that way. The turrets and lasers look great , doesn't seem like you'd lose much detail sanding that. Details are gorgeous BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Brainx Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Looking good! Can't wait to see some color on that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Did you get to orient it how you want? Looks like the neck was printed on it's side but I guess there's less undercut that way. The turrets and lasers look great , doesn't seem like you'd lose much detail sanding that. The parts were laid out in the file exactly the same as the previous version, but this one had all the frosting on the opposite side as the previous one. I've come to the conclusion that my assumption about which of the build area dimensions was up was wrong, so both prints got oriented on the side (just one side or the other). The weird part is that the guns (in both prints) have the frosting where I intended, and appear to be printed with a 90 degree rotation from where they are in the file compared to the other parts. Likewise for the neck rings. So, either they are moving parts around in the file before printing, or we're seeing parts from separate printings at different orientations. Maybe the dimensions they give are conservative, and there is actually an extra centimeter or so, because the parts should only fit in the build space 1 way (or flipped 180 from that, but not 90). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janx Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 As a Modeller and Illustrator myself, this model (CG and Print) blew me away... The time, effort and quality are evident in every picture Dan. Thanks for sharing all your hard work, I'll be following this superb work from now on. Been a fan of the VF-1 since I got a model in the late 80's and the love affair continues... Maya user.... having to switch soon too... I'm getting to old for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurisama Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Hey never be ashamed of your roots (Mayan here too). Doesn't matter anyways, its just a tool and a means to the final product. I have my students always try that argument - max vs Maya, and I tell them what a waste of effort it is - I always say, does a carpenter ever argue what brand of hammer or chisel is best? No, cause in the end its how familiar you are with it, how u use it and what end result u get. Rant off. Btw Dan - have my (digital) babies - this print out is boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benson13 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Digital babies LMFAO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hehe, thanks guys! Kurisama is absolutely right. There really isn't one superior 3D package. They all do 90% the same stuff, and the skills needed work universally between them all. In the end, it all just comes down to learning new interfaces and workflows. I was totally a grumpy old fart about it when I had to switch to Maya years back, but after a few months I was a Maya lover. I only switched back to Max because I was using it at work again, and liked a lot about the updated version (ie. stuff they made more like Maya). I'd like to get the latest version of Maya at home (I still have 8.5) and see what's new. Now that they're both Autodesk products, I wouldn't be surprised to see them eventually combined into the same product. From a professional standpoint, I'm really glad that I'm comfortable with both. I wonder how Lightwave is these days... That's the first big 3D package I started with. I still need to get some more experience with Zbrush too, so I can compete better with all the kids these days. Maybe when I get around to doing a VF-1 pilot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurisama Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 As a Maya user since Maya 4 or so, I'll tell you 8.5 was the most bug free, best iteration of Maya... The newer versions are good, a few new nifty things and a GUI colour change - however the few bugs are crap and useful features changed or removed- but yeah, gotten used to 2012. What's ur eta on the rest of the chest/back section? Are you going to attempt the J-type head soon? On a side note, what are I'd thoughts on the new J-type head - from Macross the First? I dig it, but not the new D-type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 I don't know how soon I will end up getting back to the chest/back parts. I'd like to get the cockpit and nose gear updated before I move back to that stuff, but I just know I won't be able to help myself and end up getting sidetracked on 3D prints of the nose (as long as I can afford it, anyway... I think that's going to get fairly expensive). It is pretty impossible to hold the 1/24 S head print in your hands and not salivate at the idea of printing more of the model! I'd really like to do a J head, but that will probably wait until I make a lot more progress on the rest of the VF-1. I'm sure I will end up printing the A head before I get to the J as well. I like certain things about the Macross the First J head. The Tenjin painting from Macross Ace vol.7 looks better than some of the lineart designs for it. I actually really dig the revised D head more than the new J. I wouldn't do either unless I was specifically doing a Macross the First VF-1, though. I might end up borring some details from the new designs, just to flesh things out. The J head never got the detail treatment for DYRL (since it was only seen briefly), so it might need some embellishments, borrowing details from some of the model kits and the new design, and matching details (like behind the visor) from the DYRL S and A designs. I would keep the shape classic, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janx Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Oh I am definitely getting too old I use Maya 10 at work but 8 at home, but may have to change at work to bring our office in line with other parts of the company, shame as I personally love how easy Maya is to use. But your totally right its just getting used to a new tool to do the same job, hopefully better. Have tried many times to get going on a decent detailed VF-1 but having seen Dan's work (I was literally lost for superlatives last night) I know its in the best possible hands.. now if only I could stop drooling over the thought of a 1/24 Valkyrie... nope can't do it. thanks for the Shapeways heads up too, all we need now is a lottery win. I agree totally where Dan is coming from on this model, Its got to look right in all 3 forms not just fighter. Keep up the blood sweat and tears, your VF-1 is a beautiful creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetarB Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Took a look at Maya back in the day, but stuck with 3D Studio Max since... v4? Anyway, still enjoying this one. Love your work, and those 3D prints came out wonderfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Dan!!! Don't forget it today! Both prints!!! Can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 Dan!!! Don't forget it today! Both prints!!! Can't wait. Don't worry! We'll bring both, and the v2 print is still raw (only cleaned). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden Japan Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Thanks for bringing at DYRL screening party. It was nice to see the actual piece in person. A fantastic work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikaru84 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Danbickell, I joined MW a few days ago, so I've just come along with your work. AMAZING. Your 3D mesh is a master piece and the 3D printed stuff rocks!!! :ohmy: :hail: :hail: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) Um, this thread needs to be pinned......to the front page of the main site!!!! As well as on the cover of Hobby Japan! Edited August 24, 2012 by peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Um, this thread needs to be pinned......to the front page of the main site!!!! As well as on the cover of Hobby Japan! http://www.macrossworld.com/1177/dan-bickells-cg-vf-1/ http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.340623519354363.79504.334036913346357&type=3 There's only so much we can do. I broke the rule of "only post finished projects" on the main site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 http://www.macrossworld.com/1177/dan-bickells-cg-vf-1/ http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.340623519354363.79504.334036913346357&type=3 There's only so much we can do. I broke the rule of "only post finished projects" on the main site. Oh, I know, haha! I was just thinking how awesome the work was that he deserves recognition from Kawamori himself, haha! There's gotta be a way to get the attention of the likes of Hobby Japan, or Hasegawa or something. The 3d prints of his work are nothing short of spectacular. The potential here is limitless. His CG frame work could be put towards games, live/cgi action movies, the 3d prints can be put towards toys and models...... Man, it's an awesome time to be a Macross fan where fans are creating images (2d and 3d) for fans.....thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurisama Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Good on you Dan! Great to see some one from the CG community here being brought to the light! Well done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 25, 2012 Author Share Posted August 25, 2012 Thanks guys! I really do appreciate the support. This is, however, merely a WIP thread. It's is still far from what it will hopefully become... someday. I've been suddenly swamped with a bunch of "real life" lately, so sorry that I don't have more to update. After showing the prints at the wonderful L.A. DYRL screening that >EXO< masterfully organized, I have been persuaded to make the S head model available to the public soon. The V2 is 99% up to my standards, so I plan to make it available with some minor tweaks (like an extra sprue of eye clamshells added). My vac-form table showed up last week, but I still haven't had a chance to test out the buck I had printed for the clear parts, but I will make that separately available too if it tests out well enough. I wouldn't ever hope to make a bunch of money out of it, but the way my finances have been going lately, it might be the only way I can fund any further 3D prints of the rest of the model. One of my plans all along for this project, once finished, is to put together a VF-1 fansite. Once I get over the hurdle of completeing the model and texturing it, expanding on it (FAST packs, GBP armor, TV version, 2-seaters, and plenty of paint schemes) should create gobs of content to put together a nice site of valkyrie-porn-o'plenty. I'd like to eventually make lower-poly game/animation versions available there for the public to have fun with too! That, and/or put together a book. For decades now, I've always wanted to make something like what the Master File books are, but they beat me to it. As cool as those books are, I always imagined something more, though. They came fairly close, but I think I can do better. Hopefully life will let me keep it all going. I certainly do enjoy the hell out of it, and sharing it with such fine like-minded individuals as yourselves makes it all that much better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommar Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 The book idea is cool but I get the feeling there would be at least one HUGE legal hurdle getting that made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbickell Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 The book idea is cool but I get the feeling there would be at least one HUGE legal hurdle getting that made. I wouldn't try to get it published. I would just get them printed in small quantities and sell them privately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EXO Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 It'll be the next Gold Book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinjo Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Thanks guys! I really do appreciate the support. This is, however, merely a WIP thread. It's is still far from what it will hopefully become... someday. I've been suddenly swamped with a bunch of "real life" lately, so sorry that I don't have more to update. After showing the prints at the wonderful L.A. DYRL screening that >EXO< masterfully organized, I have been persuaded to make the S head model available to the public soon. The V2 is 99% up to my standards, so I plan to make it available with some minor tweaks (like an extra sprue of eye clamshells added). My vac-form table showed up last week, but I still haven't had a chance to test out the buck I had printed for the clear parts, but I will make that separately available too if it tests out well enough. I wouldn't ever hope to make a bunch of money out of it, but the way my finances have been going lately, it might be the only way I can fund any further 3D prints of the rest of the model. One of my plans all along for this project, once finished, is to put together a VF-1 fansite. Once I get over the hurdle of completeing the model and texturing it, expanding on it (FAST packs, GBP armor, TV version, 2-seaters, and plenty of paint schemes) should create gobs of content to put together a nice site of valkyrie-porn-o'plenty. I'd like to eventually make lower-poly game/animation versions available there for the public to have fun with too! That, and/or put together a book. For decades now, I've always wanted to make something like what the Master File books are, but they beat me to it. As cool as those books are, I always imagined something more, though. They came fairly close, but I think I can do better. Hopefully life will let me keep it all going. I certainly do enjoy the hell out of it, and sharing it with such fine like-minded individuals as yourselves makes it all that much better! March and Sketchely could hook you up with that... I wouldn't try to get it published. I would just get them printed in small quantities and sell them privately. I am so totally there! Those prints would be worth every penny! Edited August 27, 2012 by Zinjo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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