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i should know this, but how does 'fold' energy work?

[...]

Then we get to frontier, where suddenly this energy seems to be everywhere. 25's use it in their flight systems for energy boosts, 29's use it to make the plane more powerful, the 30 uses it too.... I dont really know, but it uses it, and the 31's have it as well. Fold Crystals allowing them to access Fold Space and do things better. So is the energy of fold space explained at all? It can clearly bleed into our universe (When the FTL drive disappears in SDFM it leaves an energy void/distortion in space that is visable, usable and stays in relative proximity to the ship rather than just being a rip in the space it occured.)

So what do we know about it, if anything?

Actually, it's always been everywhere... practically every major system that was on the SDF-1 Macross used super dimension physics in some way. Why d'you think she was called a Super Dimension Fortress?

It isn't all the same form of energy, though.

Most of the more common examples of overtechnology like thermonuclear reaction generators (AKA "fold reactors"), fold drives, gravity control systems, barrier systems, super dimension energy weaponry, thermonuclear reaction and dimensional weaponry, etc. use a form of exotic matter that is produced by excitation of a special crystal resonator called "heavy quantum".

(The resonator is made from a synthetic material called fold carbon in most applications... though some use a purer, more effective alternative refined by the Vajra and once synthesized by the ancient Protoculture called fold quartz, which would be familiar to you as the pinkish-purple crystals in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta. The higher-purity fold quartz produces heavy quantum and fold waves with different properties to those of synthetic fold carbon.)

Heavy Quantum has a few unique properties... it exists simultaneously in both 3-dimensional space and 10+-dimensional fold space, and its mass is such that it would collapse upon itself and auto-ignite in a fusion reaction if not for that mass being almost entirely situated in fold space where physics plays by different rules. That intense mass and the gravitational force it exerts gets leveraged in the above-listed overtechnologies. The gravitational force which heavy quantum exerts is used to provide compression and containment of fusion fuel in fold reactors, and manipulated to change the curviture of space or to collapse a volume of space into fold space in gravity control systems, a fold drive, or dimensional warheads. Its tendency to fuse with itself when totally drawn into 3-dimensional spacetime is used in beam weapons, where that fusion explosion is simply focused and contained to form a beam of fusion plasma.

Fold Waves are a different animal entirely... you could think of them as fold space's equivalent of the electromagnetic spectrum. Fold waves are the key to faster-than-light equivalents of radar and radio systems. Fold carbon or fold quartz are used to produce energetic excitations in one of the native spectra of energy which travel not at all unlike radio frequencies do here. The other forms of overtechnology that also manipulate fold space for their effects (in the list above) do also produce fold waves as a consequence of their function which can be detected.

Where it gets a bit weird is that fold waves are also emitted by biological life forms... as it appears that living beings are in some way connected to higher dimension space, and their mental/emotional energy is measurable and quantifiable as a distinct spectrum of energy in 10+ dimensional space. The inevitable result is that some individuals can actually produce a fold wave strong enough to be not only detected technologically but to have an effect upon people or other life forms nearby. The discovery of song energy by Dr. Gadget M. Chiba was the first quantification of this effect, along with the discovery that some people could control the polarity of that energy (anima spiritia) and thus the polarity of the mental energy generated from it. The Vajra hive mind communicates through fold space using this principle (via a fold quartz helping hand).

Some special individuals produce distinct fold waves that can have even more dramatic effects, like producing growth or healing in biological organisms... or cause injurious effects and manipualte behavior. Var syndrome is caused in part by a bacterium that increases a person's receptivity to biological fold waves, which can be used to manipulate them. Heinz, for instance, is able to produce biological fold waves by singing and those waves (after mechanical amplification) cause either mind control or uncontrolled hostile behavior. Walkure's members use similar means, but a different emotional content in the biological fold waves they transmit, to reverse the symptoms of Var syndrome.

EDIT: Dammit Google Keyboard... stop autocorrecting me!

Edited by Seto Kaiba
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Glad to see my can kicking was well placed. That was a wonderfully succinct answer. I remembered about half of it from before, heh.

I guess then that super dimension space is basically seen as a pocket universe linked to ours. String and M-theory posit 10 or 11 dimensions total but with most of them (excluding the 3 spatial dimensions and time) being incredibly small, curled up, and not as noticeable to us in our reality. Some theoretical physicists have posited the idea there may be a sister universe to ours where the reverse is true and those dimensions are fully expanded, and perhaps their smallness here is due to bleed through, that could mean that super dimension space is something like that. Alas, like the rest of String and M-theory, while the math works out none of it can be physically tested with modern technology so we have no way to know for sure if any of it is true.

I have alternatively considered the idea that it might be the Macross explanation for dark matter and dark energy, qualities we know to exist now in our universe but cannot yet quantify. Especially with dark matter appearing to have a lot of mass in the universe that affects us but having no form or interaction at all beyond that. Almost sounds a lot like that heavy quantum. Maybe most of what we call dark matter is just hiding 'somewhere else.'

All conjecture of course, but I enjoy considering these ideas.

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I guess then that super dimension space is basically seen as a pocket universe linked to ours.

Yup. It's more-or-less the same thing as hyperspace or subspace or insert-name-here.

The age-old solution for the universal speed limit: if you don't like the rules, then find a new roof. (Also works for teenage rebellion.)

It isn't even a particularly interesting variant of hyperspace, since it apparently just messes with the universal constants for the most part. I've seen a setting or two where the actual geometry of space was different, so route planning became very important. I thought that was a neat wrinkle on the concept.

On the other hand, the presence of fold energy becomes an interesting wrinkle itself. Especially when you manage to tick the other universe's natives off while stealing their stuff(Seven Did it!™!).

I have alternatively considered the idea that it might be the Macross explanation for dark matter and dark energy, qualities we know to exist now in our universe but cannot yet quantify. Especially with dark matter appearing to have a lot of mass in the universe that affects us but having no form or interaction at all beyond that. Almost sounds a lot like that heavy quantum. Maybe most of what we call dark matter is just hiding 'somewhere else.'

I was thinking about that too, actually. It would be an interesting additional layer.

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That was fascinating, thank you.

So the 29, for example, uses Fold Quartz to amplify the systems inherent in VF class fighters already; The engine output, beam weapon output, energy conversion armor, inertial dampeners all use SDE Systems, but the fold quartz makes those systems far more powerful. Because Fold Quartz is so rare, its is super expensive, and thus 29's are rare and hard to make.

Does that mean Hayates necklace is SUPER expensive? And Sheryls earrings?

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It is possible the pieces of jewelry were wildly expensive.

It is also possible they weren't industrially useful pieces of fold quartz. Too small, too impure, too defect-laden... in any of those cases, they would be effectively garbage.

Now, whether the government approved the distribution of junk stones or not... that is another story. I get the impression that Sheryl's are from before the full utility of fold quartz was realized. Hayate, though... I reckon there's a story behind that necklace, and we'll hear it before the show is over.

It also seems like these small pieces might be getting reappraised in light of "current events". Hayate's shown repeatedly that these small fragments can have a powerful effect on a living being, and they seem like they might've been especially useful when Walkure was starting out.

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It is possible the pieces of jewelry were wildly expensive.

It is also possible they weren't industrially useful pieces of fold quartz. Too small, too impure, too defect-laden... in any of those cases, they would be effectively garbage.

Now, whether the government approved the distribution of junk stones or not... that is another story. I get the impression that Sheryl's are from before the full utility of fold quartz was realized. Hayate, though... I reckon there's a story behind that necklace, and we'll hear it before the show is over.

Sheryl's earrings are definitely grandfathered in, as they are a family heirloom dating back to her great grandparents. In the blu-ray version of Macross Zero they edited the earrings into the shot where Mao Nome is looking at the small shrine to her and Sara's parents. It is likely the fold quartz for them was found on or near the Birdman's body originally and was created by the Protoculture rather than being of the naturally produced kind the Vajra make. Certainly, no one on Mayan had any idea what potential those stones had, and Mao kept them and passed them on until Sheryl got them.

As for when fold quartz was identified for its properties, likely around the time the Vajra were first discovered in the 2040s, and Frontier and Galaxy were the first fleets to make effective use of it I bet.

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It isn't even a particularly interesting variant of hyperspace, since it apparently just messes with the universal constants for the most part. I've seen a setting or two where the actual geometry of space was different, so route planning became very important. I thought that was a neat wrinkle on the concept.

There are a few interesting wrinkles to fold space... other than it being the 10+ dimensional sub-universe adjacent to conventional reality that plays by a different set of physics.

Perhaps the most interesting of them is that fold space is a realm in which a person's mental energy is a measurable quantity and can exist separately from their physical body. Apparently this disconnect between the body and mind can result in a variety of ailments. In many, it causes a sort of intoxication or mild high which results from the separation of body and mind. For the unlucky like our gal Sheryl, that can manifest instead as an ailment not unlike a bad case of motion sickness. For the VERY unlucky, that sudden separation between body and mind can be permanent and leave the body in a persistent vegitative state.

So the 29, for example, uses Fold Quartz to amplify the systems inherent in VF class fighters already; The engine output, beam weapon output, energy conversion armor, inertial dampeners all use SDE Systems, but the fold quartz makes those systems far more powerful.

Yep... it's not well-explained, but the fold wave system (or its big brother, the fold dimensional resonance system) use fold quartz to produce fold waves that interact with systems that use super dimension physics to enhance their performance. Putting together some superficially unrelated remarks, what one such optimization appears to be is that the fold wave system provides energy from fold space to power the fighter while the entire output of the reactors inside the engines is used for thrust production.

The inertia capacitor already uses fold quartz, though. It was fold quartz which allowed the development of a more advanced version of the fold carbon-based inertia vector control system from the Queadluun-Rau and VF-22 to take place and achieve a level of performance that enabled it to protect a pilot from the insane g-forces VFs of the 5th generation can pull.

Because Fold Quartz is so rare, its is super expensive, and thus 29's are rare and hard to make.

Does that mean Hayates necklace is SUPER expensive? And Sheryls earrings?

Fold quartz itself is rare, yes... but not ruinously so.

What makes the YF-29 and other fighters with fold wave systems and fold wave amps so expensive is the size and purity of the fold quartz required to make those systems. Small crystals like the ones in Sheryl's earrings of Hayate's pendant aren't too hard to come by, but the YF-29's fold wave system needs a super-high purity 1000 carat fold quartz crystal. Normally, the only way you can get something like that is from a Vajra queen or semi-queen... or maybe from a really REALLY big cache of the stuff in a Protoculture ruin somewhere.

(If you think about it, that's like finding a rough diamond of gemstone level quality big enough to make a baseball-sized cut stone.)

It is possible the pieces of jewelry were wildly expensive.

It is also possible they weren't industrially useful pieces of fold quartz. Too small, too impure, too defect-laden... in any of those cases, they would be effectively garbage.

It's also possible the Windermereans didn't realize the value of the stuff at the time it was sold, since they don't need fold quartz to send and receive emotions.

It is likely the fold quartz for them was found on or near the Birdman's body originally and was created by the Protoculture rather than being of the naturally produced kind the Vajra make.

It's also possible the stones, which appear to have been cut and polished by the time the Nome family passed them down, were jewelry-grade stones left by the Protoculture for some reason.

As for when fold quartz was identified for its properties, likely around the time the Vajra were first discovered in the 2040s, and Frontier and Galaxy were the first fleets to make effective use of it I bet.

The novelization of Frontier puts it around 2043, shortly after first contact with the Vajra... and puts Critical Path Corporation as the potential innovator who discovered its applications.

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That was fascinating, thank you.

So the 29, for example, uses Fold Quartz to amplify the systems inherent in VF class fighters already; The engine output, beam weapon output, energy conversion armor, inertial dampeners all use SDE Systems, but the fold quartz makes those systems far more powerful. Because Fold Quartz is so rare, its is super expensive, and thus 29's are rare and hard to make.

Does that mean Hayates necklace is SUPER expensive? And Sheryls earrings?

As for Hayate's pendant.

The Keith side story manga implies Wright bought it from the twins on Windermere. Near the village of Exdel, where the particular variety of Windermerean apples forced on Voldor is grown, is a Protoculture ruin. Some locals dig the ground taking Fold Quartz making them pendants. Also the implication is that Exdel apples causes Var with ruin water as they are grown near a ruin. Most of the Fold Quartz is under NUNS custody. Accordng to Maross Chronicle on Dimension Weapons harvesting and distribution of Fold Quartz is heavily regulated due Fold Quartz being the main ingredient of Dimension Eaters.

Cassim got mad at NUNS as VFs burned his orchard in a training accident. Though I'm starting to suspect Windermere NUNS garrison knew the effects of those apples and the operation spoke of by those higher up was destroying them.

Edited by RedWolf
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Question: HIGH SPEED MODE!

What (if anything) does the wing/control surface canting do, in terms of the high speed mode? Does it have any aerodynamic basis or is it just anime-kewlness? I kinda get it for the YF-19, as the leading edge of the wing gets smaller (less drag), but the other planes?

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Question: HIGH SPEED MODE!

What (if anything) does the wing/control surface canting do, in terms of the high speed mode? Does it have any aerodynamic basis or is it just anime-kewlness? I kinda get it for the YF-19, as the leading edge of the wing gets smaller (less drag), but the other planes?

Well I can't say for the an in universe explanation but after testing various configurations of Valkyries in Kerbal Space Program I can say the canting of the main wings on a VF gives it a greater degree of horizontal stability at medium to extremely high speeds and also shifts the the center of lift quite a bit. On a VF-31 it shifts it quite aways forward giving it a more dart like performance.

Well my Valks in KSP don't have none of that fancy Active Flow Control or whatever sort of aerodynamic trickery they have in the show so they rely on pure thrust and aerodynamics and sometimes very powerful but unbalanced RCS thrusters to get the job done so my answer may not be the best.

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First off, many thanks for the group who created this site, the hive that has kept it alive and wealth of knowledge you all have allowed me to stumble upon! Child of the 80's here, so my introduction to this multiverse was Robotech, hooked on the opening alone. Wasn't until years later that I was able to start piecing the Macross story together; hoping for more than three songs from Minmay, all to my dismay. Flashback was tough as I had hoped for some narrative and a little bit more insight into what happened next; Sentinels was more filling in that regard. Macross 7 is proving itself a tough pill to swallow the whole way down. Everything else has been good. On to the questions.

Is Misa/Lisa the only surviving human after the Zentradi main fleet attack; making the human gene pool simply heirs of the SDF-1 city and crew, minus the mixing that's taken/taking place? If the surface was wiped out as suggested, minus the oceans apparently; where did they get the animals for reclamation? Plants and trees I get as they were aboard the SDF-1 in the park and we bear witness to the earth slowly adapting to its changes yet again. Its Anime I get it, so I won't even bother with the fallout issue after the attack.

I understand the Protoculture were a race about balance, however, why make Zentradi & Meltrani and then separate them completely? Why are they to date the only race whose entire gene pool was laid out ahead of time; they were created not born, like Krypton, until they met microns? How had this gone unnoticed, men and women together on the other countless worlds they obliterated?

I am the only one who thinks Delta is a lot like Lovers Again? I know Lovers Again is another dimension/universe altogether; I am referring to how the Minmay/Walkure attack is practically worthless given their enemies are also using song to support their advance, granted song is used differently but not. The love affair is even there, alien gifted singer, female pilot and male, thankfully a fighter pilot this time. What is N.U.N.S., what happened to U.N. Spacey? I get that the last two series have centered around privateers instead of regular military. Anyone else catch the fish people and wind people rehash? Obviously from Zero but I love the continuity of the whole series as a whole. Any confirmation on whose daughter the new female pilot is, since we know who the grandparents were? Apparently Max and Milia/Miria had two daughters and not just Dana/Komilia I believe.

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Is Misa/Lisa the only surviving human after the Zentradi main fleet attack; making the human gene pool simply heirs of the SDF-1 city and crew, minus the mixing that's taken/taking place?

No, that's only the case in The Show That Must Not Be Named.

In Macross, Misa Hayase was just the only survivor from the UN Forces HQ complex located under Grand Cannon 1 in Alaska. There were other survivors that escaped the bombardment in Grand Cannon 3, Grand Cannon 5, and in space in moon bases and orbiting space colonies. The total surviving human population is said to be roughly 1 million people in total.

If the surface was wiped out as suggested, minus the oceans apparently; where did they get the animals for reclamation? Plants and trees I get as they were aboard the SDF-1 in the park and we bear witness to the earth slowly adapting to its changes yet again.

There's not a hell of a lot of animal life in the aftermath of the bombardment, as you see in Macross Plus. Zentradi cloning technology was used in the nature regeneration project to restore some animal and plant populations using survivors and possibly corpses. (It's also probable that things like the seed vaults in Europe survived.)

I understand the Protoculture were a race about balance, however, why make Zentradi & Meltrani and then separate them completely?

Depends which version of the story you're looking at.

In the TV series version, the Zentradi were originally created as an all-male military for the Protoculture. The female troops were created later, to pilot the Queadluun-Rau series battle suits that were developed near the end of the Protoculture's civil war. Keeping the genders segregated was intended to keep the Zentradi and Meltrandi from engaging in activities not related to war and military duty, ensuring they'd remain an effective fighting force of basically disposable clones instead of developing into a culture in their own right.

In the movie version, the Protoculture's civil war was along gender lines and not political ones... with the male faction creating the Zentradi and female faction creating the Meltrandi, with the intention of having the giant clone soldiers do all the actual fighting. They were seperate in the movie version because they were enemies.

Why are they to date the only race whose entire gene pool was laid out ahead of time; they were created not born, like Krypton, until they met microns? How had this gone unnoticed, men and women together on the other countless worlds they obliterated?

Because they were made to be a legion of disposable clone soldiers, who could fight the Protoculture's wars for them. They were not created to be a culture or civilization, they were created to be (essentially) living weapons of war.

Unlike The Show That Must Not Be Named, the Zentradi don't destroy all civilizations they encounter for some malicious alien empire. They're an army of clones single-mindedly pursuing the annihilation of the foe their creators commanded them to destroy: the Supervision Army. The Supervision Army all but destroyed life in the galaxy once before, so there aren't a ton of planets in the galaxy that have sentient life. The galaxy is a big place, and Earth just managed to accidentally get the Zentradi Army's attention by having a beat-up Supervision Army warship crash in their backyard. Humanity seems to have been ahead of the game, technologically, even before an alien ship landed on Earth and knocked them ahead a few millennia technologically. The other worlds that were seeded by the Protoculture seem to have been pre-spaceflight before they encountered humanity, so they wouldn't draw attention to themselves easily.

I am the only one who thinks Delta is a lot like Lovers Again?

There were a fair few folks pointing out parallels initially, but most of the similarities are superficial (possibly/probably homages).

What is N.U.N.S., what happened to U.N. Spacey? I get that the last two series have centered around privateers instead of regular military.

That's a long story.

The short version is that the UN Government and UN Forces were reorganized to decentralize authority somewhat and grant the colonies more autonomy, once it became apparent that Earth could no longer micromanage colonies located years away by fold. Trying to maintain the status quo was encourging armed conflict on some colonies and some abuses of authority from the military, so authority was devolved a bit and the military put on a shorter leash to satisfy all the parties concerned. It happened at some point around 2048-2052.

Essentially, the UN Government was reorganized into the New UN Government and went from being something like the US Federal Gov't to the European Union, so the military was accordingly decentralized so that each member world/fleet is responsible for maintaining its own local forces (kind of like a militia or a national guard) while the New UN Government itself maintains its own military force of greater power and scope not tied to any one world or fleet.

Any confirmation on whose daughter the new female pilot is, since we know who the grandparents were? Apparently Max and Milia/Miria had two daughters and not just Dana/Komilia I believe.

That's another legacy of The Show That Must Not Be Named that needs a correction.

Max and Milia have eight children, not two. They have seven daughters they got the honest way, and one adopted daughter. By birth order, they are:

2011 - Komilia Maria

2017 - Miracle

2022 - Muse & Therese Mariafokina

2024 - Emilia

2026 - Miranda

2031 - Mylene Flare

Their adopted daughter is Zentradi ace Moaramia Jifon.

Komilia appeared in the original series as a baby, and has appeared as an adult in Macross II prequels Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song, as well as appearing as an adult in a group photo of the family seen in Macross Dynamite 7. Emilia appears in the Macross 7 movie, and Mylene is one of the main characters of Macross 7. Therese appeared in Macross VF-X2 under the alias Mariafokina Barnrose.

Mirage Jenius is the daughter of Miranda Jenius, the second youngest of their seven biological daughters, who has thus far only appeared in the family photo seen in Macross Dynamite 7.

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Their adopted daughter is Zentradi ace Moaramia Jifon.

Well she became Moaramia Fallyna Jenius when she was adopted. From what I understand her clone line was specifically developed to be young Mentrandi to fit on the Variable Glaug. She fought her own clone on planet Susia who was piloting the Final Weapon, a Fighter Pod that combines with two other parts forming a large Nousjadeul-Ger like unit.

Macross Frontier manga and novelization had a character named Ariel Jifon who was part of Frontier's NUNS. She was killed in battle.

Edited by RedWolf
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Hi all, I got a few questions for you guys, mostly looking for canonical (or technical if you know) explanations in respect to Frontier. It's been a couple years since I watched it and I'm waiting on Delta to finish before I binge it, so apologies in advance for anything that might be obvious.

1. Why aren't IRSTs a thing? Space is cold and exhaust is hot, so it stands to reason that anything producing heat would stick out like a sore thumb.

2. What happened to the total/pinpoint barrier system? IIRC the pinpoint barrier system was effective, and the total barrier system made for a great "I'm rubber, you're glue" tactic.

3. Aside from looking really cool, is there a reason for the fighters to take off one by one, exposed, and via catapult?

This last one isn't quite looking for facts as opposed to asking you to opine.

What do you think of gimballed lasers cued by the targeting and fire control systems replacing gunpods? The idea being instead of having to bring a very small circle to an erratically moving target while accounting for lead and dispersion, the pilot simply puts the target into a much wider "killbox" infront of him, and the FCS and gimbals take care of the rest with out having to deal the issues of slower-than-light shootings.

Totally not taking this from Yukikaze. :p

If any of these can be answered with new tech that appears in Delta, feel free to tell me, I don't mind tech spoilers (if those are a thing).

Thanks!

EDIT: Wording

Edited by Major_FuzzBear
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1. It's a safe guess that fighter sensors in Macross integrate a lot of individual EM wavelengths together (and other technobabble things like Fold Waves, in later installments). When Guld is testing out the BDI interface in Macross Plus, we can see him looking at one of the flight crew down to something that looks like X-ray or MRI. Speaking of IR in general, the newer fighters/cap ships can reduce their IR emissions via some Fold Space shenanigans, so at least in some cases there's much less of a sore thumb.

3. Leaving a bit of time between launches reduces the risk of collisions, and every bit of energy imparted by the catapult saves the fighter just that much more reaction mass.

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1. Why aren't IRSTs a thing? Space is cold and exhaust is hot, so it stands to reason that anything producing heat would stick out like a sore thumb.

They are a thing. Infrared detection systems have been part of every model of Valkyrie since the original VF-0/VF-1. There's actually quite a well-animated scene in Macross Zero where D.D. Ivanov uses his infrared sensors as a way to detect Roy's VF-0S taking cover in the terrain during a dogfight.

After the First Generation Valkyries, the infrared sensors got smaller and by the Fourth Generation Valkyries were effectively colocated with other optical and LADAR-based sensor systems in sensor clusters across the body of each new model of fighter. (Those flat, gemlike structures on and around the noses of the Fifth Generation VFs in Macross Frontier and Macross Delta are the protective covers over those clusters of optic, laser, and infrared sensors.)

(A contributing factor to the diminishment of their importance may be that a number of VFs in later generations started to display workarounds for infrared detection... like the ability to retain heat in insulated internal spaces to minimize the fighter's infrared profile until combat ends. It may also help that exhaust is not necessarily hot in space... it's plasma.)

2. What happened to the total/pinpoint barrier system? IIRC the pinpoint barrier system was effective, and the total barrier system made for a great "I'm rubber, you're glue" tactic.

Pinpoint barriers are standard equipment on all Variable Fighters starting from the Fourth Generation (VF-19, VF-22, VF-171), but the excessive energy demands of warping space-time for defense limit the operation of those barrier systems to GERWALK and Battroid modes on most VFs.

Many warships also still use pinpoint barriers, and we've seen emigrant ships using total barrier systems.

3. Aside from looking really cool, is there a reason for the fighters to take off one by one, exposed, and via catapult?

Collision prevention... though it should be noted that much of the time ships do deploy more than one fighter simultaneously from different catapults, they just stagger the launches so you don't have two catapults right next to each other being used.

Using a catapult also saves propellant in space by providing initial acceleration.

What do you think of gimballed lasers cued by the targeting and fire control systems replacing gunpods? The idea being instead of having to bring a very small circle to an erratically moving target while accounting for lead and dispersion, the pilot simply puts the target into a much wider "killbox" infront of him, and the FCS and gimbals take care of the rest with out having to deal the issues of slower-than-light shootings.

Totally not taking this from Yukikaze. :p

Unlikely to be viable. Lasers are not particularly effective weapons in most of Macross's timeline, due to the excellent heat-resistence properties that hypercarbon armor possesses on its own... which is often supplemented by anti-beam coatings. Far heavier weapons are necessary to ensure a kill most of the time, like the excessively powerful armor-piercing shells of older gun pods or the dimension-effect beam weapons used by the VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31, etc.
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No, that's only the case in The Show That Must Not Be Named.

In Macross, Misa Hayase was just the only survivor from the UN Forces HQ complex located under Grand Cannon 1 in Alaska. There were other survivors that escaped the bombardment in Grand Cannon 3, Grand Cannon 5, and in space in moon bases and orbiting space colonies. The total surviving human population is said to be roughly 1 million people in total.

There's not a hell of a lot of animal life in the aftermath of the bombardment, as you see in Macross Plus. Zentradi cloning technology was used in the nature regeneration project to restore some animal and plant populations using survivors and possibly corpses. (It's also probable that things like the seed vaults in Europe survived.)

Depends which version of the story you're looking at.

In the TV series version, the Zentradi were originally created as an all-male military for the Protoculture. The female troops were created later, to pilot the Queadluun-Rau series battle suits that were developed near the end of the Protoculture's civil war. Keeping the genders segregated was intended to keep the Zentradi and Meltrandi from engaging in activities not related to war and military duty, ensuring they'd remain an effective fighting force of basically disposable clones instead of developing into a culture in their own right.

In the movie version, the Protoculture's civil war was along gender lines and not political ones... with the male faction creating the Zentradi and female faction creating the Meltrandi, with the intention of having the giant clone soldiers do all the actual fighting. They were seperate in the movie version because they were enemies.

Because they were made to be a legion of disposable clone soldiers, who could fight the Protoculture's wars for them. They were not created to be a culture or civilization, they were created to be (essentially) living weapons of war.

Unlike The Show That Must Not Be Named, the Zentradi don't destroy all civilizations they encounter for some malicious alien empire. They're an army of clones single-mindedly pursuing the annihilation of the foe their creators commanded them to destroy: the Supervision Army. The Supervision Army all but destroyed life in the galaxy once before, so there aren't a ton of planets in the galaxy that have sentient life. The galaxy is a big place, and Earth just managed to accidentally get the Zentradi Army's attention by having a beat-up Supervision Army warship crash in their backyard. Humanity seems to have been ahead of the game, technologically, even before an alien ship landed on Earth and knocked them ahead a few millennia technologically. The other worlds that were seeded by the Protoculture seem to have been pre-spaceflight before they encountered humanity, so they wouldn't draw attention to themselves easily.

There were a fair few folks pointing out parallels initially, but most of the similarities are superficial (possibly/probably homages).

That's a long story.

The short version is that the UN Government and UN Forces were reorganized to decentralize authority somewhat and grant the colonies more autonomy, once it became apparent that Earth could no longer micromanage colonies located years away by fold. Trying to maintain the status quo was encourging armed conflict on some colonies and some abuses of authority from the military, so authority was devolved a bit and the military put on a shorter leash to satisfy all the parties concerned. It happened at some point around 2048-2052.

Essentially, the UN Government was reorganized into the New UN Government and went from being something like the US Federal Gov't to the European Union, so the military was accordingly decentralized so that each member world/fleet is responsible for maintaining its own local forces (kind of like a militia or a national guard) while the New UN Government itself maintains its own military force of greater power and scope not tied to any one world or fleet.

That's another legacy of The Show That Must Not Be Named that needs a correction.

Max and Milia have eight children, not two. They have seven daughters they got the honest way, and one adopted daughter. By birth order, they are:

2011 - Komilia Maria

2017 - Miracle

2022 - Muse & Therese Mariafokina

2024 - Emilia

2026 - Miranda

2031 - Mylene Flare

Their adopted daughter is Zentradi ace Moaramia Jifon.

Komilia appeared in the original series as a baby, and has appeared as an adult in Macross II prequels Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song, as well as appearing as an adult in a group photo of the family seen in Macross Dynamite 7. Emilia appears in the Macross 7 movie, and Mylene is one of the main characters of Macross 7. Therese appeared in Macross VF-X2 under the alias Mariafokina Barnrose.

Mirage Jenius is the daughter of Miranda Jenius, the second youngest of their seven biological daughters, who has thus far only appeared in the family photo seen in Macross Dynamite 7.

Thank you for the answers! Was unaware that the Protoculture had a Civil War, was under the impression they had reached that utopia of society we are supposed to be seeking, while leaving clues behind as how to achieve that utopia for the creations.

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Thank you for the answers! Was unaware that the Protoculture had a Civil War, was under the impression they had reached that utopia of society we are supposed to be seeking, while leaving clues behind as how to achieve that utopia for the creations.

Oh no, the ancient Protoculture's civilization never quite reached the level of a utopia. It was undeniably advanced and spanned a good portion of the galaxy, but its internal strife is what ultimately destroyed it.

In the TV series version of the backstory, the ancient Protoculture were never truly unified as one people. Less than a century after bringing their interstellar holdings together under the banner of the Stellar Republic, the sheer scope of the galaxy-spanning civilization left little internal conflicts to boil over into a civil war. The Zentradi did most of the actual fighting, until one side's prototype bio-technological superweapons were possessed by energy beings from fold space, who ran amok and formed an army of brainwashed slaves to attack both sides (the Supervision Army). The Supervision Army all but destroyed the Protoculture before being routed, and what was left of their civilization slowly faded to black after they lost control over the Zentradi... leaving the Zentradi and Supervision Army to continue fighting each other for 500,000 years and counting, and the sub-Protoculture species they created to prepare planets for future colonization developed into the various humanoid species running around the galaxy in the show's present day.

In the movie version, the Stellar Republic's civil war broke out after the development of the advanced cloning and genetic engineering technology removed the need for multiple genders for procreation... so men and women split into separate factions and eventually ended up creating the Zentradi and Meltrandi respectively to fight their civil war for them. That didn't really work out, since the ensuing conflict got out of hand and destroyed much of their civilization, leaving them with no way to order either side to stand down... so the survivors who wanted to try to start over legged it and tried to resettle elsewhere in the galaxy (incl. Earth), but had to keep fleeing as the expanding front of the war drew closer.

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So what weight do you forum long timers give to the DYRL zentran/meltran conflict backstory vs the TV version?

I myself like the antagonism between the genders as it helps explain better the culture shock when the witness humans on the Macross.

But that doesn't really flow in the M7 continuity as well.

I am further wondering what happened to the rest of the Supervision Army. I haven't come across any mention of the details of how long the ship the became the SDF had been floating in space. And though there are further encounters with uncultured zentraedi, I don't recall any appearance of SA remnants - M7 antagonists excluded since they were a captured emigrant fleet and not original SA.

Are there any encounters in other media outside of M7, etc?

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So what weight do you forum long timers give to the DYRL zentran/meltran conflict backstory vs the TV version?

Depends which of the Macross timelines you're talking about... though it's worth remembering that it's Big West, not Kawamori, that cares about an inter-series continuity.

The ongoing Macross timeline which was established with the Macross Plus OVA in 1994 and currently has Macross Delta as its far end is in the "Supervision Army" camp story-wise... as that's essential to the whole Protodeviln story in Macross 7. From that timeline's perspective, DYRL and the Meltrandi were UN Government propaganda intended to drive home what a huge threat the Zentradi Army still was and is.

The Macross II parallel world timeline takes the view that DYRL's very literal War of the Sexes is the correct backstory... with the ongoing war the Zentradi and Meltrandi are fighting periodically finding its way into Earth's neighborhood and putting Earth in the middle.

I am further wondering what happened to the rest of the Supervision Army. I haven't come across any mention of the details of how long the ship the became the SDF had been floating in space. And though there are further encounters with uncultured zentraedi, I don't recall any appearance of SA remnants - M7 antagonists excluded since they were a captured emigrant fleet and not original SA.

Are there any encounters in other media outside of M7, etc?

Thus far, the only encounters humanity in the main Macross timeline has had with the Supervision Army (that we know of) have been the crash-landing of the Supervision Army gunship in 1999, the discovery of a wrecked gunship while en route to nick that factory satellite, and the accidental rediscovery of the Protodeviln by the Varauta system colony... and the subsequent brainwashing of the colonists into a new Supervision Army-type organization.

Despite the Protodeviln being sealed away almost 500,000 years ago, that hasn't apparently cramped the Supervision Army's style too badly. Exactly what shape they're in isn't known, but they still seem to be doing well enough that they still provide opposition to the Supervision Army in the present day.

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Much obliged, sir. In the time between my first post and now I got around to re-watching Frontier, but only got halfway through the first ep before I realized I had lost all ability to handwave things like I used to.

1. Why do the NUNS pilots stick to fighter mode? If you aren't gonna train them to use the different modes as standard combat technique, why use VFs at all?

2. Ozma calls the NUNS pilots "cowards", and before the NUNS ships merge with the Vajra, the pilots are visibly afraid. Why is that? Are there systemic problems with the NUNS pilots and training?

3. How is it that fighter sized targets can completely/effectively jam a sensor fused radar picture drawing information from potentially hundreds of warship grade radars and sensor suites?

4. Both the SMS and the Frontier High Command are obviously aware of the Vajra threat, yet only the SMS have prepared themselves to fight them. What's up with that? ...Or is that Leon going about his backstabby business?

Thanks!

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1. Why do the NUNS pilots stick to fighter mode? If you aren't gonna train them to use the different modes as standard combat technique, why use VFs at all?

The New UN Spacy pilots, like SMS, stick to fighter mode in space a lot because that's the mode that offers the best mobility in space. We do see they know how to use the other modes when the show's writers allow them to actually fight the Vajra themselves starting in Ep7. Macross Delta is better about the NUNS pilots using the other two modes.

2. Ozma calls the NUNS pilots "cowards", and before the NUNS ships merge with the Vajra, the pilots are visibly afraid. Why is that? Are there systemic problems with the NUNS pilots and training?

When you think about it, it's inter-service rivalry/snobbery on Ozma's part. He can look down his nose at the New UN Spacy pilots because he's attached to this super-elite private military contractor with an unlimited budget and the latest and most advanced variable fighter specifically developed to fight the Vajra on loan from the very military he's mocking... while those poor New UN Forces guys are drawing standard military pay and flying a previous-generation main fighter that really isn't up to the task of fighting the Vajra at all.

As to why the New UN Spacy pilots are scared... it could be that they're fairly green troops from an emigrant fleet that hasn't seen a ton of action, or it may be that they're aware that the fighters they're flying are categorically not in the same league, performance-wise, as the Vajra and that they're probably gonna die.

In short, it's not really that there's a problem with the New UN Spacy training program or anything like that... Ozma and SMS are spoiled, and the NUNS forces from the Frontier fleet simply aren't equipped to fight the Vajra yet (and may not have even been told what the Vajra are, since their existence was a secret until President Glass revealed it).

3. How is it that fighter sized targets can completely/effectively jam a sensor fused radar picture drawing information from potentially hundreds of warship grade radars and sensor suites?

Exactly how far away that initial engagement is isn't clear... so it may have been at extreme long range, or the tactical net may have been using some less powerful assets like RVF-171's to build that part of the radar picket.

The Vajra are incredibly powerful, though... so much so that the Protoculture revered them, studied them, and may have built a fair amount of the weapons technology by imitating them. (Battle pods bear a suspicious resemblance to a Vajra's intermediate larval stages, intentionally so given the development line art for the series.)

4. Both the SMS and the Frontier High Command are obviously aware of the Vajra threat, yet only the SMS have prepared themselves to fight them. What's up with that? ...Or is that Leon going about his backstabby business?

Nope... there's actually nothing overtly untoward there, it's just lousy timing on the Vajra's part.

It seems that the Frontier fleet government wasn't expecting to bump into the Vajra so soon. They knew they were gonna run into the Vajra eventually, since the fleet's secondary mission was to locate sources of fold quartz, but their estimates of when seem to have been off a bit. As such, the next main fighter the fleet's New UN Spacy was planning to adopt was still in OPEVAL when their forces came under attack by the Vajra in 2059... and they were stuck fighting the Vajra with the 4th Generation VF-171 instead. The VF-25 wouldn't be ready for mass production for another few years.

As to why SMS was properly equipped to fight the Vajra... that's because they were hired by the Frontier fleet government to test the VF-25 in conditions as close to live combat as possible. Ozma explains the rationale behind it as one of legal expediency. The civilian contractors of SMS are not soldiers, so when a contractor dies during testing or in combat it's legally considered to be an accidental death. No awkward questions, no inquest, the fleet government isn't required to explain themselves to the New UN Government, etc. Richard Bilra's foresight may have been involved a little, in securing the best fighters for his troops, making his PMC more valuable to the government and increasing his already considerable influence.

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Much obliged, sir. In the time between my first post and now I got around to re-watching Frontier, but only got halfway through the first ep before I realized I had lost all ability to handwave things like I used to.

1. Why do the NUNS pilots stick to fighter mode? If you aren't gonna train them to use the different modes as standard combat technique, why use VFs at all?

If you watch Macross Delta you'll understand there are disadvantages for each mode. Not to mention the VF-171 didn't have the firepower to dent Varjra.

2. Ozma calls the NUNS pilots "cowards", and before the NUNS ships merge with the Vajra, the pilots are visibly afraid. Why is that? Are there systemic problems with the NUNS pilots and training?

Nah Frontier NUNS don't have the experience nor equipment to deal with Vajra. Of course they'd get scared. The Vajra were a bit of a Out of Context Problem due to how tough and adapting they are.

3. How is it that fighter sized targets can completely/effectively jam a sensor fused radar picture drawing information from potentially hundreds of warship grade radars and sensor suites?

Stealth overtechnology. We've seen it before in Macross Plus and Macross Zero.

4. Both the SMS and the Frontier High Command are obviously aware of the Vajra threat, yet only the SMS have prepared themselves to fight them. What's up with that? ...Or is that Leon going about his backstabby business?

Thanks!

The NUN has been aware of the Vajra since 2040 and has kept it classified. Particularly the disaster with the 117th Research fleet in 2048. The NUNG made a cover up that it was lost in a Fold fault accident. The Frontier government, which is sponsored by transport magnate and SMS owner Richard Bilrer, gathered survivors to study and prepare for the Vajra. Meanwhile Macross Galaxy got Grace as they liked her implant theory for galactic domination. The reason of which is the interest on Fold Quartz which can produce better Overtechnology than they currently use with Fold Carbon.

Both Frontier and Galaxy aimed for Vajra space to reap the benefits. As nobody figured out how the Protoculture made their own Fold Quartz.

As for Leon by invading the Vajra homeworld he aims to monopolize Fold Quartz. If Fold Quartz is monopolized there is a possibility of dominating the galaxy. In Macross Delta we already see Windermere making a play for that as they have their own stash of Protoculture Fold Quartz relics.

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How tall is the original SDF-1 supposed to be when standing in attack mode with the booms straight up?

The size comparison in Macross Chronicle puts it at almost exactly 1,200m.

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If anybody else saw the Macross Delta Short, I have a quick question.

That bit with Mirage at the end where she had to get an autograph from Mikumo for grandpa Max.

Where Kumo-Kumo was doing the hand motions and Mirage saying she couldn't give the autograph to Max anymore.

I guess the joke completely flew over my head but can somebody explain what went down between the two?

Edited by ManhattanProject972
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Nah Frontier NUNS don't have the experience nor equipment to deal with Vajra. Of course they'd get scared. The Vajra were a bit of a Out of Context Problem due to how tough and adapting they are.

Another aspect to consider. The Vajra were not expected by the rank and file of the fleet or its pilots. They were likely expecting to engage a Zentradi, Meltrandi task force or even pirates. These types of threats they were equipped for and had tactics to engage with.

The Vajra took out at least a couple of Ghost squadrons in mere minutes before the order to send live troops in, came down. Then the fighters were being quickly dispatched before the SMS cavalry came along in their shiny new fighters to engage this enemy.

An unknown alien species with frightful power like the Vajra would make anyone pee a little or even a lot!

Edited by Zinjo
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Despite the Protodeviln being sealed away almost 500,000 years ago, that hasn't apparently cramped the Supervision Army's style too badly. Exactly what shape they're in isn't known, but they still seem to be doing well enough that they still provide opposition to the Supervision Army in the present day.

I suspect you meant the SA is providing opposition to the Zentradi in the present day. Considering how 'Yuge the Zentradi forces still are after half a million years that is remarkable to me.

Edited by Zinjo
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Hi all, back again with a few more questions.

1. How do the macross fleets deal with mainline warship losses?

2. Sort of in conjunction with #1, what happens when a macross fleet is rendered mission killed? (i.e. in an encounter with a rogue Zentradi fleet, the majority of the defense force as well as numerous islands are lost)

3. Why aren't macross cannons more commonplace? The Quarter-class main gun one-hit-killed a Vajra Mothership, and IIRC the ship the original Macross was built on wasn't all that special in the Supervision Army.

These next two questions are opinion questions, and since it would be unfair of me to ask you your opinion with out providing mine, I have included them below each question.

4. What has been the hardest detail/tactic/etc. of the Macross universe for you to rationalize and/or accept? Doesn't matter how small or what it's about.

I have an incredibly hard time reconciling that space sniping of all things is a standard dogfighting tactic employed by the SMS and NUNS. Having your buddy enter melee combat with the enemy and then plinking away at them while they are still fighting is just begging for blue on blue.

5. What is your favorite little detail, be it animation-wise, story-wise, etc., that made you appreciate the movie/series/episode more?

I really like how in DYRL when the Zentradi are preparing to fire the main gun they explain that they only have one shot because stuff broke (can't remember the exact reason), and it makes perfect sense for a ship that's been in service for 120,000+ cycles to have stuff that's broken. I realize that the whole "one shot" thing is probably to explain why they didn't just blow up the rebelling ships with the main gun, but I really like that they chose to say "stuff's broken" vs "It's not done charging! Aaaaah!"

Thank you for your answers!

Edit: If opinion questions are a no go here I'll gladly remove them.

Edited by Major_FuzzBear
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Hi all, back again with a few more questions.

1. How do the macross fleets deal with mainline warship losses?

Well they should have the factory ships to help build new ones. Factory Satellites gather resources using drones to mine asteroids. In the testing of the YF-25 there is mention of Frontier fleet making a stop for resource gathering. Battle 7 was destroyed but Macross 7 fleet had a new one near completion a year later.

2. Sort of in conjunction with #1, what happens when a macross fleet is rendered mission killed? (i.e. in an encounter with a rogue Zentradi fleet, the majority of the defense force as well as numerous islands are lost)

Fleet losses aren't unknown. Some are lost due to Fold Faults or in some cases plague on Megaroad ships. Macross Frontier legislature had the option to call for the NUNG for help but that would mean their emigration mission and being a sovereign state is over. Leon Mishima opportunistically gave them the option of invading the Vajra homeworld. Desperate they took it.

3. Why aren't macross cannons more commonplace? The Quarter-class main gun one-hit-killed a Vajra Mothership, and IIRC the ship the original Macross was built on wasn't all that special in the Supervision Army.

Probably depends on your fleet government and corporate sponsors on how much money they want to spend.

Take Macross 5 and Macross Galaxy both sponsored by General Galaxy.

post-9033-0-66124800-1471093357_thumb.jpg

Macross Galaxy is called the 21st Macross fleet yet oddly it launched in 2031 a year after Macross 1. Macross 7 launched in 2039. I'm assuming it got Battle Galaxy much later but it seems superfluous given their Deneb class and Catamaran type battleships can do this.

post-9033-0-43396600-1471093939_thumb.jpg

Macross 5 had what looks like three identical Battle class ships in addition to their Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis escorts. Macross Delta seems to going for that Nupetiet-Vergnitzs class ships has energy convergence cannons.

post-9033-0-81763200-1471094117_thumb.jpg

And there is this monstrosity that the Varauta government commissioned. 8 Macross cannons with 8 extra large reaction missiles with 24 10 gigaton warheads each, meant to kill a 1,000 ship strong Zentradi fleet. Unfortunately it and the colony got hijacked by the Protodevlin.

post-9033-0-18077100-1471094592_thumb.jpg

This ship that Episilon Foundation sells could be a gunship carrier combo. Used by Windermere.

post-9033-0-72423600-1471094966.jpg

Vindirance had the Vandal class gunships in Macross VF-X2. Vindirance being an anti-Lactence force that freed Earth from a bunch of Earth supremacists that cause trouble on frontier planets.

You don't need a transforming ship humanoid form to use a gunship but it does have a psychological effect and useful if you want to punch somebody with a carrier.

Edited by RedWolf
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